CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[zarator]

Flavor means nothing, really. And look, I can honestly say that I probably run one of the best Sun Teams on Smogon, though it will win occasionally it still loves WAY more that it wins simply because Sun is pretty much a terrible thing to base a non Fire-type pokemon around. Rain Dance teams only work because the pokemon that are given Swift Swim have essentially double STAB in the rain, making it so even resists to Water-type attacks would deal at least neutral damage (unless it's Ludicolo or Kingdra, then they take x.25%).

If you guys want to make this CAP around Sunny Day, then at least make it an abusing Fire-type, so it can take full advantage of the boost the Sun gives.

I pretty much agree with you. My post wasn't intended to defend flavor in any way. In my logic, if a thing is a non-issue since you can work around it no matter what, it "means nothing".

And about Sunny Day, I remember your team, and you pretty much hit the point. I didnt want to propose a viable Sunny Day sweeper. I only wanted to show that we can give CAP8 Clorophyll, Leaf Guard, Solar Power or Flower Gift regardless which the secondary type is. How much such a Pokémon can be viable competitively speaking, well, that's another issue.

 

[cyberzero]

It's been some great conversation everyone! A lot of indepth analysis and now we're sure to have a great Secondary Typing! The poll is up, so time to go head on out there!

 

[m190049]

1) Cacturne has Sand Veil and is Grass/Dark. Just imagine a Grass typed preevo and even an Electric/Dragon could have Chlorophyll.
Guys, you really need to be more flexible and creative when it comes to flavor

For the (clearly obvious) record, Cacturne is based on a cactus, found in the desert. Have you ever heard the term "a desert sandstorm?"
It would be in bad taste to have a Pokemon based on a plant that is constantly exposed, and immune to, sandstorms, to be damaged by Sandstorm in the game. Especially when in a desert sandstorm is the exact place that it is caught.
And the fact that Cacturne is neither Rock, Ground, or Steel and is immune to Sandstorm is one of the whole gimmicks of it.

Flavor is actually a really important aspect when official Pokemon are made.
The game is supposed to also appeal to kids too, as well as older teens.

Flavor is generally ignored in CAP until we get to names & designs, but on official Pokemon, it really is quite a big aspect.
I believe it's been mentioned that when Pokemon are created, it generally goes Types --> Small ideal concept of battle style (Offensive, Defensive) --> Design --> Main concept --> Status/Movepool (implementing base stats & moves that fit with the design & types) --> etc.
When official Pokemon are made at least.

TL;DR version: Flavor means nothing in CAP, but this is just for the record... The real reason it is given the ability is to make it immune to Sandstorm, because it would be untasteful otherwise. In other words, a huge aspect on flavor.

 

[zarator]

For the record, Cacturne is based on a cactus. Found in the desert. Have you ever heard the term "a desert sandstorm?"
It would be in bad taste to have a Pokemon based on a plant that is constantly exposed, and immune to, sandstorms, to be damaged by Sandstorm in the game. Especially when in a desert sandstorm is the exact place that it is caught.
And the fact that Cacturne is neither Rock, Ground, or Steel and is immune to Sandstorm is one of the whole gimmicks of it.

Thanks, I never catched what Cacturne was based on. Thank you.

Seriously, where's the gimmick? It is just a Pokémon which changed type evolving and carried on a Ground based ability despite not being Ground itself. What is and isnt allowed in Pokémon has never been codified. The only thing we can "read" are precedents. And Cacturne is a precedent.

And, despite all, there's no way a flavour based concept can sway a competitive discussion. Would you like if someone in the Art thread said "I vote for X because with such a sprite we could give him Brave Bird even if its not flying"?

 

[Zystral]

Blaziken gets Brave Bird and that isn't Flying. It gets Brave Bird because it's a chicken. Flavour. Your point being?

The point of Cacturne is that it is a Cactus. Cactii are ALWAYS found in the desert, no exceptions. Not even Pokemon disobeys this law of nature - Cacnea/Cacturne are caught in the desert area of every single Pokemon game. Even the spin-offs. So to make a Pokemon that is more or less constantly living in Sandstorm not immune to it would be somewhat silly. It's like making Abomasnow not-part-ice.
While this may be flavour, yes, it still adds a competitive side - would Cacturne want to abuse Sand Veil as well as it does if it got hurt by Sandstorm? Would Abomasnow still be a viable HailStall lead if it got hurt by it's own niche?

The point is, once we have the Typing and the Concept, we understand what this is and what it does, and can then give it an Ability based on such, and flavour may be an argument for one ability or not.

Here's my opinion/example: when I think of Electric/Dragon, I think of the leviatian-like dragons of Chinese mythology. I don't know why, I just do. And if we applied flavour to that, it'd have something like Intimidate, which would then bolster its walling capabilities even further, or it would have Pure Power, which would help with its sweeping attempts.

Just because flavour isn't important, doesn't mean it can't affect the competitive decision. (Actually, doesn't Syclant's flavour text say it lives in mountain ranges? So the Mountaineer ability suits it well, as well as being a good competitive asset.)

 

[jagged_angel]

Ugh, the several Dragon votes in the polling thread followed by "because it's gonna look SUPER COOL" are really embarrassing. I wish there was something that could be added process-wise for when people use that as a justification for voting.

 

[Veedrock]

Blaziken gets Brave Bird and that isn't Flying. It gets Brave Bird because it's a chicken. Flavour. Your point being?

The point is, once we have the Typing and the Concept, we understand what this is and what it does, and can then give it an Ability based on such, and flavour may be an argument for one ability or not.

CAP =/= Game Freak. We also had a poll to give Brave Bird to Kitsunoh. Not even partly bird related. Your argument doesn't stand, as we build Pokemon for the competitive environment (read: flavor not involved), Game Freak does not. Your entire point is null and void to the process.

Just because flavour isn't important, doesn't mean it can't affect the competitive decision. (Actually, doesn't Syclant's flavour text say it lives in mountain ranges? So the Mountaineer ability suits it well, as well as being a good competitive asset.)

You'll notice that A) those don't matter (we don't even do them anymore), and B) that came after everything else was done; the ability was not based on that description, the description was based on the ability. That has absolutely nothing to do with the pokemon.

Ugh, the several Dragon votes in the polling thread followed by "because it's gonna look SUPER COOL" are really embarrassing. I wish there was something that could be added process-wise for when people use that as a justification for voting.

Yeah, it sucks. But that's what happens in a democracy. And even if reasoning was needed, they'd only paraphrase somebody elses valid reasoning. At least this way they're honest.

 

[Zystral]

What. I'm saying that yes, the main reason of CAP is to make new competitive battling based Pokemon, I get that, but a tiny bit of flavour doesn't hurt, especially if the flavour is advantageous for the Pokemon. Like I said, if we do end up Electric/Dragon, Pure Power would be flavourful and beneficial (maybe).

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

For the (clearly obvious) record, Cacturne is based on a cactus, found in the desert. Have you ever heard the term "a desert sandstorm?"
It would be in bad taste to have a Pokemon based on a plant that is constantly exposed, and immune to, sandstorms, to be damaged by Sandstorm in the game. Especially when in a desert sandstorm is the exact place that it is caught.
And the fact that Cacturne is neither Rock, Ground, or Steel and is immune to Sandstorm is one of the whole gimmicks of it.

Flavor is actually a really important aspect when official Pokemon are made.
The game is supposed to also appeal to kids too, as well as older teens.

Flavor is generally ignored in CAP until we get to names & designs, but on official Pokemon, it really is quite a big aspect.
I believe it's been mentioned that when Pokemon are created, it generally goes Types --> Small ideal concept of battle style (Offensive, Defensive) --> Design --> Main concept --> Status/Movepool (implementing base stats & moves that fit with the design & types) --> etc.
When official Pokemon are made at least.

TL;DR version: Flavor means nothing in CAP, but this is just for the record... The real reason it is given the ability is to make it immune to Sandstorm, because it would be untasteful otherwise. In other words, a huge aspect on flavor.

Just for the record in real life steel thats left out in sandstorms gets abraided and worn away, so basically even gamefreak only cares about flavor to a certain extent. Why might I ask should bug be super effective against pyschic? doesn't really make much sense flavor wise, but gamefreak probably decided that pyschic has two few weaknesses.

in other news it's a really great feeling when you look through the votes and see that the dragons have some support by smogon veterans, and that the newbs who only justifaction for the typing is "that would be so cool" are the only people who think it's a great typing. Flavor wise I do really hope it wins, cause I already spent a nice amount of time drawing up some niffty ideas.

 

[m190049]

Don't worry... I recall a bunch of the people not voting for either dragon or bug saying that Bug is probably their second type. Not as many for dragon, for some.

As it narrows down, we'll probably get a few more bug supporters.

...
...
[Off-topicness] Besides, wouldn't an Electric/Bug look awesome as well?
Look at these few spiders. I'm actually to base my design entry on one of them (or a mix) when we get to that step, assuiming Bug wins.

- Spider #1
- Spider #2
- Spider #3
- Spider #4

And there are many other non-spider creatues that can be cool Electric/Bug types...
I just kindah wan't a spider. =P [/Off-Topicness]

Just for the record in real life steel thats left out in sandstorms gets abraided and worn away, so basically even gamefreak only cares about flavor to a certain extent.

Though when only there for a while, it would be almost completely undamaged from sand, besides a couple small scratches if it's strong enough.

Why might I ask should bug be super effective against pyschic? doesn't really make much sense flavor wise, but gamefreak probably decided that pyschic has two few weaknesses.

Same reason fighting isn't effective on Bug. You'd think that being able to slam a bug would kill it- but not when in a swarm. A giant swarm if insects would destroy the mass fighter, or simple psychic. Any single-powered, single-aimed fighting element.

 

[Veedrock]

What. I'm saying that yes, the main reason of CAP is to make new competitive battling based Pokemon, I get that, but a tiny bit of flavour doesn't hurt, especially if the flavour is advantageous for the Pokemon. Like I said, if we do end up Electric/Dragon, Pure Power would be flavourful and beneficial (maybe).

Pure Power is a very sensitive ability that would be very easy to make too powerful. And I don't see how that's flavorful, it only doubles attack (physical electric sucks btw), which means it'll have like a ~60 attack stat. If something is beneficial, it'll be added for benefit, not for flavor.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Don't worry... I recall a bunch of the people not voting for either dragon or bug saying that Bug is probably their second type. Not as many for dragon, for some.

As it narrows down, we'll probably get a few more bug supporters.

...
...
[Off-topicness] Besides, wouldn't an Electric/Bug look awesome as well?
Look at these few spiders. I'm actually to base my design entry on one of them (or a mix) when we get to that step, assuiming Bug wins.

- Spider #1
- Spider #2
- Spider #3
- Spider #4

And there are many other non-spider creatues that can be cool Electric/Bug types...
I just kindah wan't a spider. =P [/Off-Topicness]


Though when only there for a while, it would be almost completely undamaged from sand, besides a couple small scratches if it's strong enough.


Same reason fighting isn't effective on Bug. You'd think that being able to slam a bug would kill it- but not when in a swarm. A giant swarm if insects would destroy the mass fighter, or simple psychic. Any single-powered, single-aimed fighting element.

hmmm, thats some pretty well thought out flavor responses. I do think that bug eletric would look pretty sweet but I've had this dream vision of my three elemental dragons being made into real pokemon since I was like 12. So on a flavor level I guess childhood nestogia would be my reason for backing the dragon typing so boldly. But cetainly I'm open for ideas, almost voted bug myself, but the idea of have another fire resist to complinment kit was just tooo much to pass up. Not too mention we alreay have one CAP that seriously wishes it had a fire resist (poor sylcant)

@Veedrock: you are so right about physical electric sucking, it would be so nice if cap8 got a shiny new physical electric move

 

[m190049]

Pure Power is a very sensitive ability that would be very easy to make too powerful. And I don't see how that's flavorful, it only doubles attack (physical electric sucks btw), which means it'll have like a ~60 attack stat. If something is beneficial, it'll be added for benefit, not for flavor.

Neither Pure Power and Huge Power are on the allowed list anyway.

And we could easily make a new move if that event came.

Bug is mixed, I guess. It can be either Physical or Special.
Although Electric is pretty much completely Special.
We could give a good Physical move to it, and out Pokemon can be mixed.

 

[Veedrock]

@Veedrock: you are so right about physical electric sucking, it would be so nice if cap8 got a shiny new physical electric move

And we could easily make a new move if that event came.

Why do people bring this up? Physical electric sucks as a whole; it has nothing to do with the moves.

 

[hydrolphin]

Oh please, Water is the one type I don't want. We have to many water type pokemon as is, even if none of them are CaP. Proof is in the fact that they have Water1, Water2, and Water3 as different Egg Groups. Please, not another Water type.

Just because there are a bunch of Water types doesn't mean we can't make more... By that arguement, CAP8 should be Electric/Ghost.

That is an extremely poor arguement. Instead of giving trivial knowledge, use some evidence as to why water is not as good as something else.

Water, as stated before, combos with Electric extremely well. It has a minimum nuber of weakness, only pure electric having less, and also has great coverage. Why is it a bad choice.

Also seconding the notion physical electric sucks

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Why do people bring this up? Physical electric sucks as a whole; it has nothing to do with the moves.

What are you talking about? With most Bulky waters having a better SpDef than Def Physical Electric with STAB is rather awesome, espescially if it powered up a little. Another thing, you would think that Electric of all types would have a priority move. I mean electricity = fast. Might be nice to have one of those.

 

[hydrolphin]

What are you talking about? With most Bulky waters having a better SpDef than Def Physical Electric with STAB is rather awesome, espescially if it powered up a little. Another thing, you would think that Electric of all types would have a priority move. I mean electricity = fast. Might be nice to have one of those.

Well actually...
Of the OU waters, Neither Swampert nor Kingdra are weak to Electric, so they will be disounted.
Tentacruel has an excelent SpD, but a lacking Def... so you are right on him.

Vaporeon has better SpD than defensive, but both are lackluster. Its HP stat is really the impressive one of the bunch.

Suicune, Starmie, Arghonaut, and, possibly after the suspect vote, Manaphy have equal or nearly equal stats in the defenses. However, they are more likely to invest EVs in the Physical defense, making it more powerful.

So even with a new move, T-Bolt will more than likely be better.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Suicune

I good amount of Suicune carry Calm Mind however, right?

Isn't it about time the TL starts a clicky poll? enough people have posted that it pretty clear that either bug or dragon (possible water if everything else is gone) will win

 

[adman2]

I good amount of Suicune carry Calm Mind however, right?

Isn't it about time the TL starts a clicky poll? enough people have posted that it pretty clear that either bug or dragon (possible water if everything else is gone) will win

I haven't yet seen a Suicune on Wifi without Calm Mind, so yes, it is common.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I haven't yet seen a Suicune on Wifi without Calm Mind, so yes, it is common.

Well it's not like WiFi has much standing in CAP. All that matters here is Shoddy, specifically the CAP server

 

[hydrolphin]

I good amount of Suicune carry Calm Mind however, right?

Isn't it about time the TL starts a clicky poll? enough people have posted that it pretty clear that either bug or dragon (possible water if everything else is gone) will win

Even with CMCune, Argho and Starmie, tke care of it. It really isn't worth the effort.

Btw, the Poll must be open for a day to let people from other timezones vote. I know its hard to believe, but every once in a while, something isn't COMPLETELY centered around America.

 

[zarator]

Blaziken gets Brave Bird and that isn't Flying. It gets Brave Bird because it's a chicken. Flavour. Your point being?

Being that you have understood nothing of what I wanted to say. If there were a art poll with choices A and B and I would say "I vote A because we could give it Brave Bird while if B wins it would be impossible", would you appreciate it?
My point was: Competitive polls should be voted upon competitive reasons. Art polls should be voted upon flavor reasons. Never mix them up.

The point of Cacturne is that it is a Cactus. Cactii are ALWAYS found in the desert, no exceptions. Not even Pokemon disobeys this law of nature - Cacnea/Cacturne are caught in the desert area of every single Pokemon game. Even the spin-offs. So to make a Pokemon that is more or less constantly living in Sandstorm not immune to it would be somewhat silly. It's like making Abomasnow not-part-ice.
While this may be flavour, yes, it still adds a competitive side - would Cacturne want to abuse Sand Veil as well as it does if it got hurt by Sandstorm? Would Abomasnow still be a viable HailStall lead if it got hurt by it's own niche?

Another moot point. Cacturne is not immune to Sandstorm for stupid flavor reasons. It is immune because of Sand Veil. If you skill swap him with Bronzong and it loses Sand Veil, it will take damage despite being a cactus.

The point is, once we have the Typing and the Concept, we understand what this is and what it does, and can then give it an Ability based on such, and flavour may be an argument for one ability or not.

Ehm... No? This is not how we work and vote. Even if you do not agree you must accept it. If we need any ability for our CAP, even if it was Water Absorb for a Rock/Ground type, we will give it to him. Period. If you really are concerned about it, we could rename the ability. In the example, we could rename Water Absorb "Wet Rock". But never, NEVER suggest to unallow an abillity or a move for flavor issue. We will never hear to you in the case. Sorry.

Just because flavour isn't important, doesn't mean it can't affect the competitive decision. (Actually, doesn't Syclant's flavour text say it lives in mountain ranges? So the Mountaineer ability suits it well, as well as being a good competitive asset.)

Yes, it can't. We can rename as much as your flavor sense needs, but we will never let flavor interfere with competitive issues.

What. I'm saying that yes, the main reason of CAP is to make new competitive battling based Pokemon, I get that, but a tiny bit of flavour doesn't hurt, especially if the flavour is advantageous for the Pokemon. Like I said, if we do end up Electric/Dragon, Pure Power would be flavourful and beneficial (maybe).

The flavor is advantageous to the Pokémon? Maybe. But that's something compeltely situational. If somehow we create a ground CAP and we feel it needs Sand Stream, yes, it would be flavourful. Nice. But if we think it would need Snow Warning, we would give it anyway, even if it is a pure Ground Type (and no, if you have Snow Warning you are not hurt by Hail even if you are not part-ice)



So, to sum this up: if you have a flavor issue, you can propose to rename everything you deem necessary. But unallowing competitive alternatives for the sake of flavor is unacceptable

 

[Scoopapa]

Flavor-wise, I can see any electric type having a speed-doubling nature in sun. Just clone chlorophyll and call it something having to do with solar panels or photovoltaic or something... if we are similarly creative we should be able get over most flavor hurdles. I do think we should try to make things work however, because having retarded flavor disparities cheapens the product, would turn many away from CAP, and doesn't fit with the spirit of the original pokemon (which many forget CAP is supposed to do).

 

[DougJustDoug]

Stop the flavor discussion.

For those of you that are new to the project, we generally do not engage in debate about the non-competitive aspects of a pokemon, aka "flavor". Here are examples of flavor arguments:

• What "makes sense" on a given pokemon
• Whether a move or ability "fits" on a given pokemon
• How a pokemon could execute a given move or ability based on it's typing or design

There is no basis for intelligent discussion on these issues, because they pre-suppose that there are a set of rules for such things. To the best of my knowledge, GameFreak has never published a set of rules for pokemon creation -- therefore it is impossible to know whether or not we are following the rules correctly. I don't care how long you have been playing pokemon, nor do I care how many examples you can cite from within the game -- THERE ARE NO DEFINED RULES THAT SPECIFY THE PROPER FLAVOR OF A POKEMON.

So, we will not waste our time arguing about flavor.

For example, if you want to bring up Pure Power for competitive reasons, then feel free to do so. But, don't argue about whether Pure Power "goes with" a certain type of pokemon. It's a silly argument that cannot be proven or substantiated either way. Make a competive argument for it, or don't mention it at all.

If people continue to raise flavor issues in CAP threads, they might be infracted for making off-topic posts, since very few of the CAP creation threads directly pertain to flavor. Obviously, threads like art are PURE FLAVOR -- meaning there is NO competitive impact of a pokemon's game sprite. Feel free to argue flavor all you want in the art threads, naming threads, etc. But, for the vast majority of CAP discussion threads -- flavor is considered to be a waste of time and energy.

Ignore this advice at your own peril.

 

[tennisace]

Bugs are awesome and need more OUs; Dragons, not so much.

I want to respond to this here since there shouldn't be non-votes in the poll thread. There are almost just as many Bugs in the top 50 as Dragons. Granted they aren't as high up, but they're there.