CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[Leviathan207]

Dragon also resists grass no? and both are resistant to fire, not to mention Electric Dragon is 4x resistant to Electric which has even better synergy with Arghonaut.

And speaking of synergy with Arghonaut, what about Electric/Dark? Its only weaknesses, as far as I'm aware, are Bug (resisted by Argho), Fighting (resisted by Argho), and Ground (Argho can usually take a decent EQ). Not to mention, it can safely switch in on, say, a Psychic or Flying attack and counter with STAB moves.

EDIT: Wait, nvm, Argho doesn't resist Fighting, but he can still take a hit.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

And speaking of synergy with Arghonaut, what about Electric/Dark? It's only weakness, as far as I'm aware, are Bug (resisted by Argho), Fighting (resisted by Argho), and Ground (Argho can usually take a decent EQ). Not to mention, it can safely switch in on, say, a Psychic or Flying attack and counter with STAB moves.

At the same time Dark isn't that great an attacking of defensive type. when we pick the typing it really should just come down to the most versital and unexplored. We have yet to make a dragon type and despite what someone said regarding a lack of support opions with dragons I'll point out both Salamence and Dragonite. Salamence has access to Wish, and Dragonite to Light Screen and Reflect, making it viable as an offensive Poke and Supporting Poke

 

[RandyBerri]

After reading through most of this thread, and reading great arguments from Veedrock, Gen. Empoleon, Deck Knight and Magmortified I have found myself leaning more and more towards No Secondary Typing.

As some of you have already said, a pokemon doesn't need amazing resists and few weaknesses to be a good defensive or offensive pokemon. Celebi, Blissey and Tyranitar is prime examples of that.
Neither does it need to have STAB moves that have good coverage to be a great offensive threat. Many OU offensive threats doesn't use both their STAB moves. By looking at the 20 top pokemon on the CAP server we can see that most of these pokemon do not use both of their STABS on a regular basis and still are very effective in this metagame.

While a good secondary typing certainly helps, I don't see it necessary at all because of reasons stated above. While No Secondary Typing may seem really dull, it makes a much more flexible pokemon than a poke with a secondary typing would be. And that is why Electric was chosen in the first place, because of it's diversity.

 

[Mr Escalator]

Dragon also resists grass no? and both are resistant to fire, not to mention Electric Dragon is 4x resistant to Electric which has even better synergy with Arghonaut.

Both being resistant to fire ISN'T synergistic. Bug secondary being weak to fire is synergistic, as it allows the fire resist (Arghonaut) a switch in. Bug secondary also boasts the Electric resist, as well.

 

[Leviathan207]

Both being resistant to fire ISN'T synergistic. Bug secondary being weak to fire is synergistic, as it allows the fire resist (Arghonaut) a switch in. Bug secondary also boasts the Electric resist, as well.

Bug doesn't resist Electric.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Both being resistant to fire ISN'T synergistic. Bug secondary being weak to fire is synergistic, as it allows the fire resist (Arghonaut) a switch in. Bug secondary also boasts the Electric resist, as well.

Sorry I was pointing that out as a "could help a teammate" arguement, since Fire is such a common attack type which bug would be weak to, and bug secondary only resists Electric x2, while dragon is 4x

 

[Matthew]

When we look at Electric/Bug and Electric/Dragon closely we can see that really they have so much in common that it is hard to choose which one is better. People can see an Electric/Dragon type being a better sweeper due to it getting Draco Meteor and Outrage via Move Tutors, and lets not forget the other moves (Heal Bell, Dub Screen) it could get via breeding. Bug-types, on the other hand, get access to moves like Spore and Stun Spore along with the powerful move Megahorn; not to mention that almost all Bug-types have access to Light Screen (and if we wanted it too, get Will-o-Wisp from Shedinja or through TM). It's really quite a balanced debate we have right now, and we can't seem to make head way with either side.

 

[Mr Escalator]

Bug doesn't resist Electric.

Electric resists Electric.

 

[Leviathan207]

Ah, I thought you were saying that both types resist it.

 

[MystErikEry]

Electric resists Electric.

Yes, but BUG doesn't boast that.

 

[Mr Escalator]

Yes, but BUG doesn't boast that.

I said, quite clearly, that Bug SECONDARY also boast the ability to resist Electric, allowing synergy with Arghonaut. Learn to read people.

 

[tennisace]

I'm still in support of Grass right now; Dragon gets absolutely NO support moves, and Electric only gets Thunder Wave (I'm aware that it could get Yawn, BP, Sub, Roar, etc, but some Status or other beneficial moves like Leech Seed or Curse would be nice.)

CAP doesn't care about precedent when making movepools. However, just to show you how wrong you are: Thunder Wave, Toxic, Light Screen, Haze, Heal Bell, Safeguard, Sing, Yawn, Reflect, Healing Wish, and Wish, to name a few support moves that supposedly don't exist on Dragon-types.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

CAP doesn't care about precedent when making movepools. However, just to show you how wrong you are: Thunder Wave, Toxic, Light Screen, Haze, Heal Bell, Safeguard, Sing, Yawn, Reflect, Healing Wish, and Wish, to name a few support moves that supposedly don't exist on Dragon-types.

Wait what Dragon gets Healing Wish? Not that the move is all that great anyways, but my curiosity has been spiked.

@ Mr Escalator: Why are you bitching at people misunderstanding what you said? You clearly made it seem as though bug resisted Electric, leaving you open to misinterpretations.

 

[Matthew]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/latias

 

[Deck Knight]

When we look at Electric/Bug and Electric/Dragon closely we can see that really they have so much in common that it is hard to choose which one is better. People can see an Electric/Dragon type being a better sweeper due to it getting Draco Meteor and Outrage via Move Tutors, and lets not forget the other moves (Heal Bell, Dub Screen) it could get via breeding. Bug-types, on the other hand, get access to moves like Spore and Stun Spore along with the powerful move Megahorn; not to mention that almost all Bug-types have access to Light Screen (and if we wanted it too, get Will-o-Wisp from Shedinja or through TM). It's really quite a balanced debate we have right now, and we can't seem to make head way with either side.

Light Screen is moot because all Electric types learn it anyway. Electric? You learn Light Screen. It's be more accurate to say that Grass types get Spore although the winged Bugs certainly tend to get Stun Spore. They stopped handing out Sleep Powder like candy in GSC. Electrics already have access to Thunder Wave and I've every intention of arguing for more para moves so thats mostly a wash.

Really though I think the biggest differences come in major the resistances: Water and Fire vs. Fighting.

Weaknesses are part of it but exchanging Fire/Rock for Dragon is similar although Dragons can't really switch into each other to exploit it as much.

 

[Fuzznip]

Wait what Dragon gets Healing Wish? Not that the move is all that great anyways, but my curiosity has been spiked.

CAP doesn't care about precedent when making movepools. However, just to show you how wrong you are: Thunder Wave, Toxic, Light Screen, Haze, Heal Bell, Safeguard, Sing, Yawn, Reflect, Healing Wish, and Wish, to name a few support moves that supposedly don't exist on Dragon-types.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I don't mean to be impatient, but can we move on please? We already know this will be a standoff between Dragon, Bug and Water, plus MAYBE a few more types will come in to the fray, so I really wanna see what wins out in the end

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

@ fuzzynip: wait what point are you trying to get at? Healing Wish is held be latias, which Gen. sent me a link to. Tennisace said supposedly.

@ Deck Knight: If it's really comes down to resists isn't a 4x electric resist and a fire resist better than fight statistically speaking? especially if said CAP has a somewhat decent SpDef Stat?

 

[AK99]

I'm not in favour of either Electric/Dragon or Electric/Bug. Why? We already have a mass of Dragon-type sweepers and it would be overly redundant if CAP 8 turned out to be offensive. For defensive, Dragon seems like a cop-out option to me since it's got great resistances and only two weaknesses; three when coupled with Electric.

Bug on the other hand sports a SR weakness and can't really do much to Ground-types with either STAB. I'd imagine Bug-types generally boast Grass-type moves in addition, but defensively it's got two common weaknesses (Fire, Rock) so defensively I don't think it would be a good option, that is if CAP 8 turns out to be defensive.

I support Electric/Rock or Electric/Grass. For Rock, I think this post pretty much sums it up:

everyone on #cap already agreed that voting rock is the best choice.

you get two great stabs with electric and rock, which are super effective against fire, water, ice, flying (two different stabs for flying actually, rock for dragons and electric for non dragons), and bug.

as for resistances it yields normal, fire, electric, poison, flying while being weak to water, grass, fighting and ground. with these resistances and weaknesses it allows cap to not be a centralizing force while still be threatening.

Great resistances, great STABs, balanced but still a threat whether its defensive or offensive. Even thought it has a 4x weakness (Ground) you can essentially get a free switch-in to say, a Flying type or Levitate pokemon.

If Rock doesn't get chosen, I support Grass as a second choice. Again, great resistances, great offensive STABs, and great type synergy with each other while still not overcentralising due to weaknesses like Fire and Ice- who goes to say you can't switch? Plus, it's not SR weak.

As a third choice I'd prefer Water. Several people have already made great points for an Electric/Water type pokemon. Who cares if Lanturn already has this typing? It can still be a great choice.

 

[Naxte]

I've seen several people bring up Rock, but I'm still not quite sure what's so good about it, to justify the extra weaknesses:

Not sure I like Rock either. It's adding on several weaknesses (water, grass, fighting), just to hit Fire and Ice for super-effective (and Bug, but the OU bug types, Scizor and Forretress are hit neutral by both Electric and Rock, due to their other type, so bug isn't relevant, along with Flying, since that's covered by Electric already) basically. However, the only Fire and Ice types really found commonly in Standard are Heatran, Pyroak, Mamoswine, Syclant and Weavile. However, due to their secondary typings, Heatran and Mamoswine are both neutral to rock.

That leaves Weavile, Syclant and Pyroak. Weavile is on the frail side, so it doesn't really need STAB rock to be taken care of; even something like Volt Tackle or Thunderbolt should leave a good dent in it, ignoring other options we could give it, such as Close Combat (plus, there's also how on the reverse side of things, if you're not faster than it, it will be able to leave a big dent in you regadless). Similar applies to Syclant, leaving Pyroak. But even negating that and assuming it wouldn't be able to touch Syclant and Weavile at all otherwise, that means you're adding on several weaknesses just to make it handle three Pokemon (Syclant, Pyroak, and Weavile) more easily, and I'm not sure if that's a fair trade off.

 

[Joatmon]

As far as a fighting resist goes, It should be important to analyze how big Fighting is part of *regular* OU (for playtesting) and CAP's post-OU playtesting.

Fighting is pretty prevelant from what I have seen in CAP, but truth be told I cannot speak too much for standard. I don't care about stats (though I would love a fire resist), I just want to know how fighting resist is beneficial. If someone has said so previously, I apoligize for missing your post.

 

[Mr Escalator]

@ Mr Escalator: Why are you bitching at people misunderstanding what you said? You clearly made it seem as though bug resisted Electric, leaving you open to misinterpretations.

The way I said it was perfectly fine, so that narrows it down to the readers having poor reading comprehension. I don't see why you are so strung up on this that you have to mention it in your post when my second reply wasn't directed at you.

Anyway, it isn't fair to argue that 4x resist to Electric and 2x to Fire is more important than Fighting, as the bug secondary still has 2x resist. Deck Knight's comparison is better way to put it, as Bug doesn't score a resist on Water.

Edit: Naxte, isn't that the third time you quoted that exact part of your post?

 

[Matthew]

Bug on the other hand sports a SR weakness and can't really do much to Ground-types with either STAB. I'd imagine Bug-types generally boast Grass-type moves in addition, but defensively it's got two common weaknesses (Fire, Rock) so defensively I don't think it would be a good option, that is if CAP 8 turns out to be defensive.

I support Electric/Rock or Electric/Grass.

Electric/Rock is weak to: Ground-, Water-, and Fighting-type attacks. Those are more common than both Rock-, and Fire-type moves.

Electric/Grass is weak to: Fire-, Ice-, Bug-, and Poison-type attacks. That is a ton more weakness than our Electric/Bug friend carries, hell they all carry MORE weaknesses than what Mr Escalator and I are suggesting.

 

[Naxte]

Edit: Naxte, isn't that the third time you quoted that exact part of your post?

Yes, but people keep bringing up Rock, and I still haven't gotten a response to it. =/

 

[Mr Escalator]

Well, I don't have an answer to it. I think it's ultimately a poor typing x___x
4x ground weak, weak to fighting, weak to water. If those aren;t common, then I dunno what types are! The STAB is a bit redundant, as well. Though, Light Screen with Sandstorm SpDef boost sounds cool.

Eh, I'm really ready for voting.