CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

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I've just been reading through since I haven't had much to say recently...

I really think most of us have chosen what we want and are ready to vote... Ready to stop discussing already...

The three most popular second types (Dragon, Bug, and Water) all seem to have their own advantages and disadvantages, and their own balance. Which one of the three we like, (assuming we're not in favor of something else) seems to be finally down to personal opinion.
 
I think everyone is just about ready to vote now. Everyone seems to have their heart set on something and no one is willing to give in, only the consideration of another type as "possibly being good" is given. I'm even still sticking to what I chose way-back-when, hoping bug wins and if not bug then poison, and please not a dragon.
 
My favorite is Electric/Grass. To be wholly honest, a lot of my preference for this typing does come from the possible abilities, but let's go over what the typing can do stand-alone.

Defensively:

Electric/Grass would be hit 2x super-effective from Bug, Fire, Ice, and Poison, and 4x super-effective by no types. Major STAB threats here would be Heatran, Heracross, Infernape (durr), Mamoswine, Pyroak, X-Scissor toting Scizor, Syclant, Weavile, and arguably Fidgit - I don't play much CaP, so I don't know how often Fidgit carries Sludge Bomb, but I'll play it safe and list him.

The exchange here is that Electric/Grass sports a 1/2 Steel resistance, coupled with 1/2 damage from Grass and Water, and 1/4 damage from Electric. It's no secret that Steel dominates the CaP metagame these days, and since Pyroak apparently sees so little use, something that could catch Bullet Punches with impunity would be beneficial to the game on a whole. Unlike /Bug, there is no Rock weakness, and /Grass offsets Ground weakness, making this typing that much better versus Metagross, Tyranitar, and any of the myriad of EQ carriers.

Offensively:

Electric/Grass is an impressive offensive typing. Hitting super-effective against Flying, Ground, Rock, and Water, its brute strength isn't phenomenal, but it is only resisted by Dragon and Grass. This means that Electric/Grass hits at least neutral versus everything OU with the exception of Breloom, Celebi, and Pyroak. No Dragons resist it, as Dragonite and Salamence are hit neutral by Electric, Flygon is hit neutral by Grass, and Kingdra is hit neutral by both Grass and Electric. In my mind, that's pretty staggering; plus, it solves the dilemma of Grass Knot versus Thunderbolt.

If we do choose an offensive bias for this Pokemon, it'll be pretty hard to stop outright; couple that with certain neglected abilities that Grass can pick up (hey, I ain't sayin'), and it could definitely be a powerful threat.
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
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We don't "have our heart" set on something. We firmly believe that a Electric-type pokemon with either a Dragon- or Bug-type secondary is truly the best option for this CAP and what we're trying to do. Though some are "bad wagon Dragon" as someone (I believe Deck Knight) but that doesn't matter. So no, we are no don't debating until we have argued why all types (besides the ones we believe to be the best) are not as effective.

The main issue I carry for Electric/Grass is that Grass doesn't have a solid STAB move outside of Grass Knot. True most Water-, and Ground-types are heavy, but say we want to hit something neutral with a Grass-type attack, and lets say it wasn't the heaviest piece of meat around. True we get STAB, but the base power would still be lacking. We could also just make a new Grass-type move just for this specific pokemon. Grass shares a lot of weakness also, Fire-, Ice-, Bug-, and Poison-types all hit it super effectively. Though Poison may not be much of a worry in todays metagame. So if we did choose Electric/Grass then it seems we would have to go off into Offense, or maybe we would try to balance out those weakness with some impressive defense stats, I can't really say
 
Well, I don't have an answer to it. I think it's ultimately a poor typing x___x
4x ground weak, weak to fighting, weak to water. If those aren;t common, then I dunno what types are! The STAB is a bit redundant, as well. Though, Light Screen with Sandstorm SpDef boost sounds cool.

Eh, I'm really ready for voting.
Yeah, admittedly, I forgot Dragonite, Salamance, and Zapdos in that list, being flying Pokemon whose other typing neutralizes the electric-weakness but keeps the rock weakness intact. Salamance is kind of iffy though, due to Rock moves practically being all physical unless we actually give this thing Intimidate, and Salamance having Intimidate to kind of neutralize the super-effecivenss of Rock moves against it. The other two would be good points though, and makes Rock seem a bit better, but the weaknesses that come with it have me being very skeptical of its usefullness.
 
Electric/Grass opens up a lot of ability options, but Electric/Ice his a lot of things very hard, which may be more handy if an offensive ability is chosen.
 
The main issue I carry for Electric/Grass is that Grass doesn't have a solid STAB move outside of Grass Knot. True most Water-, and Ground-types are heavy, but say we want to hit something neutral with a Grass-type attack, and lets say it wasn't the heaviest piece of meat around. True we get STAB, but the base power would still be lacking. We could also just make a new Grass-type move just for this specific pokemon. Grass shares a lot of weakness also, Fire-, Ice-, Bug-, and Poison-types all hit it super effectively. Though Poison may not be much of a worry in todays metagame. So if we did choose Electric/Grass then it seems we would have to go off into Offense, or maybe we would try to balance out those weakness with some impressive defense stats, I can't really say
I dunno if I should put this here, but /Grass opens the door for all the Sun abilities. Something like Solar Power or Chlorophyll would definitely give a reason to carry Solarbeam. I know we're supposed to avoid talking about abilities here, but since the entire concept of this Pokemon hinges on its ability, I don't think it's too much to toss around a few ideas.

Defensively, I really like /Grass for resisting Steel. I mean, really, really like it.
 
Electric/Grass opens up a lot of ability options, but Electric/Ice his a lot of things very hard, which may be more handy if an offensive ability is chosen.
Electric/Dragon kind of outdoes Electric/Ice though, with both hitting everything for neutral damage in OU except Magnezone, while Dragon only has 3 weaknesses to Ice's 4, and Dragon not having the Stealth Rock weakness.
 

SoT

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BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG

Shield Dust, Thubderbolt/Charge Beam, Bug Buzz. How is that not freakin awesome. Electric/Bug would be a good offensive and a faily decent defensive threat. I really don't feel like elaborating any more than I have, to I think this should suffice.


zomg sot posted rawr

Edit: YES FUCKING THUBDERBOLT
 
Don't worry. That rule has almost been completely ignored/forgotten for a bulk of the thread, really.
What the hell kind of attitude is that? I'm sorry, but if you think ignoring the rules is okay just because everyone else is doing it, then you are an idiot.

Back on topic, I've really opened my mind to Poison, but it seems to be all about Bug vs Dragon now.

I'm just going to say that Electric/Dragon is much better offensively and slightly better defensively than Electric/Bug. The Stealth Rock weakness really hurts.

Now consider the metagame. What Pokemon do you see on almost every good team? Arghonaut. Electric/Dragon would be really good for the metagame to bring down Arghonaut usage and make Pokemon like Revenankh viable again.
 
BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG

Shield Dust, Thubderbolt/Charge Beam, Bug Buzz. How is that not freakin awesome. Electric/Bug would be a good offensive and a faily decent defensive threat. I really don't feel like elaborating any more than I have, to I think this should suffice.


zomg sot posted rawr
Shield Dust can be given to anything, there's nothing that makes it bug specific, this thing will also get access to 'thubderbolt' and (most likely) charge beam no matter the secondary typing.
 
Now consider the metagame. What Pokemon do you see on almost every good team? Arghonaut. Electric/Dragon would be really good for the metagame to bring down Arghonaut usage and make Pokemon like Revenankh viable again.
What does Electric/Dragon do better than Electric/Grass versus Arghonaut?
 
The main issue I carry for Electric/Grass is that Grass doesn't have a solid STAB move outside of Grass Knot.
You my friend are forgetting Leaf Blade, Energy Ball, Power Whip and Seed Bomb just to name a few attacks. All of those seem pretty solid imo, they all have 80+ power or more to them and they aren't reliant on weight.
 
I dunno if I should put this here, but /Grass opens the door for all the Sun abilities.
Explain to me why we couldn't give sun related abilities to Electric / <anything not grass>.

Anyways, I'm at the point where I don't even care what wins anymore. I just want this to be over with and set in stone ~_~ This isn't much of a discussion. Each side is stating their points (continuously, over and over) to brick walls that won't budge nor care whatever reasoning is given. This has gotten pointless. We may as well all give it a rest and wait for the poll, because nobody's winning anybody else over.
 
Explain to me why we couldn't give sun related abilities to Electric / <anything not grass>. Don't bring flavor into this.
While I personally think it's stupid to ignore flavor completely, I guess an answer would be that Electric/Grass with Sun has a solid special Grass STAB. Grass Knot is, as stated before, iffy at best, and Energy Ball is just lackluster. Pretty much nothing utilizes Solarbeam, and it's not because it's a bad move, it's just that there's little incentive to set up sun in the first place.
 
Electric/Flying and Electric/Ghost are of little to no interest simply because they exist already. Also, the Rotom formes piss people off enough as it is.
Ah, true. In that case, what about Electric/Psychic and Electric/Normal?
I think Psychic has been briefly mentioned before, but that's about it.
 
Electric/Normal is pretty pointless, really. It's barely different from Electric. Normal is just one of those types that nobody cares about in CAP. Too boring.

Psychic is of interest, but a Pursuit weakness always turns people away.
 

SoT

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Electric Bug is the best. Specs Bug Buzz and Thunderbolt or Band Volt Tackle and X-Scissor. Yeaaah! Really, it seems like a great combination because physically, Skarmory/Celebi/Cresselia/Waters/ all take a ton of damage from either set, and they are very common walls, these "neglected abilities" could easily create some great Wall-Breakers. Sorry if this was to vague, debating in another topic atm.
 
I have to agree here, a lot of the so-far listed neglected abilities could really help a electric/bug counter the pokes it would clearly be made to counter.
 
Am I the only one supporting Electric/Psychic? Who cares about the Pursuit weakness, plenty of other Pokemon function perfectly well with it e.g. Celebi, Azelf, Latias. Furthermore, it's not SR weak, which people keep banging on about annoyingly, and dual-STAB boasts excellent neutral coverage, as demonstrated by our old friend Jirachi.
 
While I personally think it's stupid to ignore flavor completely, I guess an answer would be that Electric/Grass with Sun has a solid special Grass STAB. Grass Knot is, as stated before, iffy at best, and Energy Ball is just lackluster. Pretty much nothing utilizes Solarbeam, and it's not because it's a bad move, it's just that there's little incentive to set up sun in the first place.
1) Cacturne has Sand Veil and is Grass/Dark. Just imagine a Grass typed preevo and even an Electric/Dragon could have Chlorophyll.
Guys, you really need to be more flexible and creative when it comes to flavor

2)When my speed is doubled in the sun (or my status are wiped) and I have such a good STAB combination as Electric/Dragon, Electric/Bug and so on, I really do not care a shit about SolarBeam (which by the way I would not run anyway with all the Tyranitars around waiting to switch in on the charge turn)
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
1) Cacturne has Sand Veil and is Grass/Dark. Just imagine a Grass typed preevo and even an Electric/Dragon could have Chlorophyll.
Guys, you really need to be more flexible and creative when it comes to flavor

2)When my speed is doubled in the sun (or my status are wiped) and I have such a good STAB combination as Electric/Dragon, Electric/Bug and so on, I really do not care a shit about SolarBeam (which by the way I would not run anyway with all the Tyranitars around waiting to switch in on the charge turn)
Flavor means nothing, really. And look, I can honestly say that I probably run one of the best Sun Teams on Smogon, though it will win occasionally it still loses WAY more that it wins simply because Sun is pretty much a terrible thing to base a non Fire-type pokemon around. Rain Dance teams only work because the pokemon that are given Swift Swim have essentially double STAB in the rain, making it so even resists to Water-type attacks would deal at least neutral damage (unless it's Ludicolo or Kingdra, then they take x.25%).

If you guys want to make this CAP around Sunny Day, then at least make it an abusing Fire-type, so it can take full advantage of the boost the Sun gives.
 
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