CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[Not Scicky]

Scizor beats out Salamence in usage (by 30,000 uses =/), Heracross and forretress beat dragonite (by like, 100 and 4000 uses respectively)

Even though there's Flygon, Kingdra and Latias, that doesn't change the fact that bugs are still VERY common, and VERY good at what they try to do.

 

[m190049]

Just a while ago the poll was neck and neck. Now Bug's being beaten out by about 20 at time of post.

I still see the biggest complaint for Bug being the Stealth Rock weakness.
Is the 2x weakness really as big a deal as they're making it?
I really don't find it as big a deal as a lot of people are paying it off the be.
Other big threats are weak to SR, and they overcome it with support.
Gyarados, example-wise.

 

[Jhonny]

Just thought I'd repost the respective defensive and offensive capabilities courtesy of Gothic Togekiss simply because I had difficulty finding it again.

Electric/Dragon
Weakness: Ground, Dragon, Ice
Resistance: Electric (x4), Water, Grass, Flying, Steel, Fire
Electric/Dragon
SE against: Dragon, Flying, Water
NVE/Immune: Magnezone, Steelix


Electric/Bug
Weakness: Fire, Rock
Resistance: Fighting, Steel, Electric, Grass
SE: Water, Dark, Psychic, Flying, Grass
NVE/Immune: Gliscor, Camerupt, Nidoking/queen, Steelix, Magnezone, Giratina, [Ghost/Ground], Diagla

I like the dragon resistances, but it's weaknesses are pretty freakin' scary.

 

[Veedrock]

Teams generally can't carry more than 1 SR weak pokemon without getting messed up. "Rapid Spin." It's really not easy to fit rapid spin on a team and it's a bigger burden than just dealing with SR. As for "other threats are SR weak," there's only 3 big ones. Zapdos is ultra defensive and has instant recovery. Salamence and Gyarados are only in one time and they rip things up in that time period. Anymore than one ining for either is usually suicide.

And I'd much rather carry Salamence than some bug/electric thing, seeing as running both will be a large issue.

 

[tennisace]

Bug. Dragon gets zilch for support moves, so it'd be automatically offensive... ish.

This is completely rediculous, I've already posted why IN THIS THREAD.

CAP doesn't care about precedent when making movepools. However, just to show you how wrong you are: Thunder Wave, Toxic, Light Screen, Haze, Heal Bell, Safeguard, Sing, Yawn, Reflect, Healing Wish, and Wish, to name a few support moves that supposedly don't exist on Dragon-types.

 

[Matthew]

This is completely rediculous, I've already posted why IN THIS THREAD.

Yes, we know that the voting topics are full of shit votes casted for the wrong reason. We can't do anything about that unless somehow we decide that it would be best if we bold voted on everything, and the cut out on the "dumb" arguments then we will continue to see votes like this:

Hm.................... I'll say Dragon. I don't think it'll be that much of a challenge to not make it super broken.


(o yeah, and the appearance will be supah cooal)

 

[blakcharz77]

Just thought I'd repost the respective defensive and offensive capabilities courtesy of Gothic Togekiss simply because I had difficulty finding it again.

Electric/Dragon
Weakness: Ground, Dragon, Ice
Resistance: Electric (x4), Water, Grass, Flying, Steel, Fire
Electric/Dragon
SE against: Dragon, Flying, Water
NVE/Immune: Magnezone, Steelix


Electric/Bug
Weakness: Fire, Rock
Resistance: Fighting, Steel, Electric, Grass
SE: Water, Dark, Psychic, Flying, Grass
NVE/Immune: Gliscor, Camerupt, Nidoking/queen, Steelix, Magnezone, Giratina, [Ghost/Ground], Diagla
I like the dragon resistances, but it's weaknesses are pretty freakin' scary.

Every dragon type is weak against other dragons and ice, so you would expect it to be the same for any dragon that we make, as well. The same goes for every electric type against ground moves. Electivire, Salamence, and Dragonite seem to survive just fine.

 

[hydrolphin]

Every dragon type is weak against other dragons and ice

Well, actually, Kingdra is neutral to Ice. And the problem isn't so much it is weak to Ice, or that its weak to ground, its that its weak to both Ice AND ground, the two most common attacking types. While I must say Dragon is probably the third or fourth best choice, Bug happens to come right ahead of it.
EDIT: and lol at E-vire doing well.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

@ Tennisace: Lol CAP doesn't even really care about setting precedent for typing either, in fact kinda of the hole point of CAP is to explore the unexplored. Therefore ideas like a dragon with support moves, and a dragon with outrage/ draco meteor are something that should be, and probably would have been played with, even if we don't do it this round. I've told people that just because "Dragons get outrage/draco meteor" isn't a reason to not vote dragon. I think bug has it's merits too but a versiltal pokemon shouldn't be weak to such a common field hazard, espesially when we have the ability to design it. I would love to see a future CAP bug, but I would be shooking for a better accompanying type like maybe ground, or rock.

 

[Plus]

From the way I see it, there are two main reasons people are voting Bug. They either:

-Are afraid of Dragons ripping up CaP

-Like the resistances more than Dragon

Dragons are notorious for being the ass of an offensive force in today's metagame. Stuff like CM Latias and Mence run rampant, and Flygon hits pretty hard too with STAB Outrage and Earthquake. At a glance, Dragon is great offensively and has some decent resistances. However, I honestly think that people are just scared of the offensive powerhouse moves of Outrage and Draco Meteor that they just don't want a Dragon. There is no defined set of rules that make a pokemon a pokemon, as stated by Doug. We don't 'have' to give each Dragon Outrage or Draco Meteor.

We're just discussing secondary types here. I don't think we should necessarily poll jump and predict a moveset that comes with Dragon types. If anything, keeping a balanced CaP in the metagame is pretty important. When casting a vote for a secondary type, things that should pass through people's minds are the resistances, the offensive STAB it would get, and it's general easiness to switch in.

With that in mind, I think Dragon is the better of the two. It would be easier to switch in, have a better offensive typing, and have some pretty nifty resistances, although Bug does have it's share too.

In terms of offensive typing, this is a no brainer. Even without Draco Meteor and Outrage, Dragon's only resist is steel. It would definitely be better offensive wise for this pokemon. Again, we don't have to go overboard with this. The movepool and base stats will speak for itself. The typing doesn't play into this without the moves and stats to back it up.

As for the general easiness to switch in, here is where SR comes into play. Sure, you have things like Zapdos and Salamence, all who have SR weaknesses yet still function well. And it's true -- a mere SR weakness doesn't necessarily warrant a bad pokemon. But there is no denying that SR weakness is indeed something that Zapdos and Salamence hate. Packing more than 2 (2 is even pushing it) SR weaks on a team without a spinner, who suck, will really destroy your team fast if you aren't prepared. I'd also like to note that Zapdos and Mence have extremely high BSTs, and their stats and movepools make up for that SR weak.

You trade Ground and Ice weaknesses for Fire and Rock weakness. However, Dragon gets a Fire and Water resistance as Electric/Bug gets the nifty Fighting resist. Ground, Ice, Fire, Fighting and Rock are all viable attacking types, although there is no SR type other than Rock. The thing that I like about Dragon more than Bug in terms of typing is the actual pokemon that can switch in on them.

So you can switch in Electric/Bug on a fighting move. Provided that CAP8 does not have +108 speed, it will be taken by Fire Blast/Flamethrower from an Infernape when you switch CAP8 in on CC. For Machamp, DynamicPunch's confusion rate makes things unstable, and the two main STAB moves can be taken by Machamp, as it is bulky as well. Machamp can then retaliate with Stone Edge!

I think it's best that some pokemon just have no business with certain pokemon, and I don't really think Fighting types are what Electric/Bug should switch into. Fighting types are quite devastating. Even things that resist Fighting type moves should watch out.

I just wanted to voice my thoughts out, as I really don't like some of the reasoning that people vote some things for. (lol don't even get me started with "because electric/dragon looks cool" bullshit)

 

[tennisace]

@ Tennisace: Lol CAP doesn't even really care about setting precedent for typing either, in fact kinda of the hole point of CAP is to explore the unexplored. Therefore ideas like a dragon with support moves, and a dragon with outrage/ draco meteor are something that should be, and probably would have been played with, even if we don't do it this round. I've told people that just because "Dragons get outrage/draco meteor" isn't a reason to not vote dragon. I think bug has it's merits too but a versiltal pokemon shouldn't be weak to such a common field hazard, espesially when we have the ability to design it. I would love to see a future CAP bug, but I would be shooking for a better accompanying type like maybe ground, or rock.

I have no idea what you're talking about since that's what I've been saying forever.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I have no idea what you're talking about since that's what I've been saying forever.

wasn't arguing I was agreeing

 

[Not Scicky]

Every dragon type is weak against other dragons and ice, so you would expect it to be the same for any dragon that we make, as well.

The same goes for every electric type against ground moves. Electivire, Salamence, and Dragonite seem to survive just fine.

Meet Palkia, Kingdra, and Dialga (The final of which isn't weak to EITHER)

As for the second point, it's not as significant, but there's Zapdos and all the Rotom forms =/

 

[Plus]

There are pokemon that have no business with other pokemon. That's just how it works. That's why we have teams of 6 pokemon -- so they can cover their own weaknesses. Expecting to cover almost all of the types in pokemon is a complicated task to accomplish.

We can name exceptions to this rule if we want (such as spiritomb), but all typings can work either defensively or offensively given the correct circumstances, whether it be stats or movepool.

 

[Not Scicky]

I'll just put this here

1. An Electric/Bug is an awesome idea. Sure, there's the whole SR weakness, but then people might actually start using Spinners again. :D

2. Electric/Dragon would immediately be seen as an offensive Pokemon, because its two weaknesses (Dragon and Ice) are really common attacking types because of the fact that there are so many dragons and dragon counters.

3. As for Electric/Bug, you have Fire and Rock. Fire is common, but Rock is only common in the form of SR.

4. Offensively, there isn't much there, but defensively, there is so much opportunity. I think a defensive Pokemon with 2 weaknesses should be able to get around a 25% SR weakness, if you count Leftovers and whatever the Ability is.

1. No, they probably won't, some of the most important pokemon in the game have rock weaks, if people aren't using spin now, then they won't start using it because of 1 pokemon.

2. From what I've seen, most people want a defensive CAP8, so no, I don't think it will.

3. And stratagem and stone edge etc.

4. Or, we could have a defensive pokemon with 3 weaknesses (possibly 1 if we gave it thick fat?), more resistances and NO SR weakness?

Edit: Thanks veedrock, whoops

 

[Veedrock]

Electric/Dragon has 3 weaknesses.

Don't we have enough defensive CAPs?

 

[Joatmon]

Just because a pokemon has few weaknesses doesn't mean it has to be defensive. Jolteon has one weakness, yet you don't see it walling this and that. Typing is important in defense, sure, but one of the biggest parts is the stats, so don't worry about that until we get to that part of the process.

Also, what is wrong with another defensive cap? In fact, who is saying this will be defensive?

 

[Matthew]

Electric/Dragon has 3 weaknesses.

Don't we have enough defensive CAPs?

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, chief. The whole argument about Bug-type vs Dragon-type was the fact that they had certain resistances that made them appealing. I'm also getting pretty fed up of people automatically assuming that because it "has 3 weaknesses" or "nothing resists it" then it's going to be some unstoppable force. This is not true. The typing does not make the pokemon, the stats we give it are the deciding point. Electric/Dragon has both offense and defense qualities which allows us, to make this CAP whatever we want.

Stop saying that it's going to be defensive right away, this CAP may as well be a full out sweeper with 120 in both attack stats and 1 point in Defense and Special Defense.

 

[Deck Knight]

Electric/Dragon has 3 weaknesses.

Don't we have enough defensive CAPs?

Sableye has no weak!

Don't we have enough defensive pokemon!

 

[Veedrock]

Thank you for pointing out the obvious, chief.

I was fixing his mistake. Nothing about "it has more weaks than bug" or "it has few weaks."

Stop saying that it's going to be defensive right away, this CAP may as well be a full out sweeper with 120 in both attack stats and 1 point in Defense and Special Defense.

2. From what I've seen, most people want a defensive CAP8, so no, I don't think it will.

Comprehension doesn't hurt. You guys are so worked up you don't see half the posts in the thread, and go off at the first sign of anything you don't agree with. Christ.

Congrats to both of you for taking my post extremely out of context. Really. How about coming back to earth?

 

[m190049]

From the way I see it, there are two main reasons people are voting Bug. They either:

-Are afraid of Dragons ripping up CaP

-Like the resistances more than Dragon

The people supporting a Defensive Dragon are constantly saying that Electric/Dragon "only has 3 weaknesses", and has lots of resistances. Yes, it only has 3 weaknesses, but the weaknesses it DOES have are all dangerously common offensive types.

Even if it turns out offensive, it's not really too much of a difference. Offensive or defensive, no Pokemon loves exploitable weaknesses.
THAT'S why many People are choosing Bug.



Conversely, a lot of people are choosing Dragon because Bug has a Stealth Rock weakness.
That's really the only mentioned complaint.

 

[Naxte]

I'll resond to this here:

I was refering to the Dragon Type itself's support moves: Thunder Wave is Electric (although a wide variety of Pokemon learn it) Toxic is universal, Light Screen/Reflect are generally found more on Electric/Psychic types, even though Dragonite and Latias learn them. Safeguard onwards are exclusive to Altaria, who is UU, and Dragonite, who, along with the recently un-ubered Latias are the only 3 users.

-I'm pretty sure I'm overlooking something..

I was refering to a non-damaging move that Dragons naturally learn: out of all the pure Dragon type moves, there's 1 status move: Dragon Dance, which is an extremely powerful sweeping tool, but not too often used to support a team. Dragon is an extremely good type, but is oriented towards offense. I don't mean that there are NO support sets available, but the ratio of Sweeper Salamences to "Fatmences" is pretty high.

I argue for Bug because it is currently totally offensive (Scizor/Heracross) or totally Defensive (Forretress/Ninjask). Those are the only 4 OU Bugs.

Why does it matter that there aren't any Dragon-type support moves? The point is, Dragons do learn support moves; what type they are is irrelevant. If that's what really matters, then under the same logic, Bug also doesn't really get any support moves; out of the Bug-typed moves, only U-turn and Spider Web could really be considered support moves (there are also a few stat up moves, but those are only support with the non-Bug typed support move Baton Pass). Most of the real support moves clamored over, such as Spore, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, ect. are Grass type. So, the point is moot; both types do get support moves, as tennis pointed out, although in both cases the support moves usually aren't the same type as them. As a result, that's not exactly an area where one type is really better than the other in.

Edit: @m190049: That's true. However, having Ice and Dragon weaknesses obviously isn't crippling, as Pokemon like Flygon, Salamance, and Latias prove, just like how Salamance and Gyarados are examples of how a SR weakness isn't necessarily cirppling. Either way we go, the Pokemon will have problems, but, as the existing Pokemon show us, they are problems that can be dealt with.

 

[Not Scicky]

The people supporting a Defensive Dragon are constantly saying that Electric/Dragon "only has 3 weaknesses", and has lots of resistances. Yes, it only has 3 weaknesses, but the weaknesses it DOES have are all dangerously common offensive types.

Even if it turns out offensive, it's not really too much of a difference. Offensive or defensive, no Pokemon loves exploitable weaknesses.
THAT'S why many People are choosing Bug.

Cause Fire (Used commonly by the 8th, 9th and 10th most common pokemon in CAP, as well as occasionally by the 4th) and Rock (Used commonly by the 4th and 7th) isn't common? (And that's just in the top 10)

While Ground, Ice and Dragon are 3 very common types, so are Fire, Water, and Electric all of which are resisted by Electric/Dragon, whereas bug resists grass and fighting.

Both types have their ups and downs, but saying dragon is a bad type defensively is a GROSS exaggeration =/

 

[m190049]

but saying dragon is a bad type defensively is a GROSS exaggeration =/

Where did I say that.


Anyway, make a top 10 for Dragon, Ground, and Ice too.
Post the results. I want to see them.

 

[Deck Knight]

Moving over:

I was refering to the Dragon Type itself's support moves: Thunder Wave is Electric (although a wide variety of Pokemon learn it) Toxic is universal, Light Screen/Reflect are generally found more on Electric/Psychic types, even though Dragonite and Latias learn them. Safeguard onwards are exclusive to Altaria, who is UU, and Dragonite, who, along with the recently un-ubered Latias are the only 3 users.

On thte Smogondex, Dragonite has 8 movesets, 7 of which are offensive, and 1 of which is support.
Latias has 6 OU Sets, 4 of which are offensive, and 2 of which are support.
Salamence has 9 Sets, 8 of which are offensive, and 1 of which is support.

-I'm pretty sure I'm overlooking something..

I was refering to a non-damaging move that Dragons naturally learn: out of all the pure Dragon type moves, there's 1 status move: Dragon Dance, which is an extremely powerful sweeping tool, but not too often used to support a team. Dragon is an extremely good type, but is oriented towards offense. I don't mean that there are NO support sets available, but the ratio of Sweeper Salamences to "Fatmences" is pretty high, simply because they do their jobs so much better.

Perhaps this is because Salamence has immense offenses and mediocre defenses more than its Dragon typing.

Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong have the exact same type and yet the first is insanely offensive, the other varied, and the third defensive.

And not a damn one of them uses a Steel support move because they don't exist, yet most of them manage to do just fine with SR, never mind the DSers.

Butterfree learns a metric ton of status moves but none of them are Bug type and only 1 (the questionably useful Tailwind) is Flying type. Somehow Butterfree remains a pokemon heavily focused on support moves.

Support moves don't get STAB so their type source is irrelevant. We could assume this was an aquatic Electric/Bug/Dragon whatever and give it Aqua Ring for all anyone cares.