CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)

[Pimplup]

I don't like Leaf Storm. It just seems to be overkill from a power perpective. It already has Overheat. It doesn't need both. Plus, it doesn't look overly "leafy" in the first place.

Aromatherapy works. Burning Wood->Incense->Aroma->Aromatherapy.

I agree with the Leaf Storm statement. I also am with DougJustDoug with Aromatherapy as a move. It fits it perfectly.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I agree with the Leaf Storm statement. I also am with DougJustDoug with Aromatherapy as a move. It fits it perfectly.

The whole point of a Fire/Grass is to combine the advantages in one pokemon. I can safely say that we won't be coming back to another Fire/Grass for a while unless popular support for Cartoon's Elk comes into play, so we might as well make Woodman a Fire/Grass to the fullest extent that it's capable of being, including giving it both power moves.
Besides, it's not as if it loses any significant counters by having both 140 base moves, and in fact it's limited even more if it choses to use both.

 

[Cartoons!]

I don't like Leaf Storm. It just seems to be overkill from a power perpective. It already has Overheat. It doesn't need both. Plus, it doesn't look overly "leafy" in the first place.

Aromatherapy works. Burning Wood->Incense->Aroma->Aromatherapy.

Good point. I still believe it's not thematically congruent with the Woodman's character, (Venusaur doesn't get Aromatherapy because it's a big scary monster), but I guess it's really not so hard to believe.

Also, I don't know if we want to give this Pokemon every viable move under the sun as that puts lots of already underused Pokemon completely out of a job.

 

[Dane]

Plus, if it doesn't get Leaf Storm... what special grass attack DOES it get? Grass Knot, Energy Ball, or Solar Beam? The only viable one there is Grass Knot, which barely touches lighter Pokemon (Dugtrio, Vaporeon, Starmie).

If it doesn't get Leaf Storm, I advocate the newly created technique (call it either Chlorophyll Cannon or... Cannibus Cannon >_>). Just make it the Flamethrower of grass attacks, or Heatwave in order to not completely alienate Energy Ball.

As for looks: It could easily shoot the leaves out of his cannons.

Then for power: I thought the entire point to Fire/Grass was his amazing STABs? Why take those away, when he'd likely only use one at a time anyway? He's not likely to stay in if he uses one, or if he does and uses another special attack he'll be using a -2 SpAtk version. Let the lizard have his leaf.

 

[X-Act]

Having both Leaf Storm and Overheat isn't broken at all. As I already said, even if you have both in the same moveset, you're forced to use only one of them every time you switch it in. And every Fire and Dragon type resists both, so they're not that hard to counter.

 

[Cartoons!]

I think people are underestimating what this thing's stats already do for it. If we don't start self-imposing some limitations, we're going to end up with another game centralizing behemoth.

Garchomp's already a bit of a monstrosity, imagine if Nintendo had exercised even less restraint and gave that thing Dragon Dance.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Anyway G_T would it be possible to use the TM/HM list and have Bold Text votes on contentious moves in the next poll?
People can suggest new moves to add and ones to remove in this poll.

Hmm....that sounds like a good idea. The only thing that bugs me mentally if adding them what TM/HM they want is better than asking them what they don't want?

Aromatherapy works. Burning Wood->Incense->Aroma->Aromatherapy.

I could say some witty joke involving the process of burning certain kinds of leaves to do the same, but that be too obvious.

 

[eric the espeon]

Hmm....that sounds like a good idea. The only thing that bugs me mentally if adding them what TM/HM they want is better than asking them what they don't want?

Have a bold text vote, each move should have yes or no.

 

[chronostrike]

Chlorocannon: Special Grass, 10 PP, 100 BP, 90 Acc, 10% chance of paralysis. Not terribly dangerous to any of the counters. The counters that would be susceptible to the paralysis are bad choices to hit with a grass move.

 

[the_artic_one]

Or just let it have the perfectly fine Energy ball.

 

[Time Mage]

Yeah. 80 BP might not be as good as 90/95, but hey, you can choose between the "risky" Grass Knot, and the reliable Energy Ball. I don't see the need of adding another move just because some people think 80 BP is not enough for a reliable move.

 

[Dane]

Because he's supposed to be a special attacker, and 80 BP off a 95 SpAtk stat isn't even close to as good as 120 BP off a 70 Atk stat? Plus, with the 120BP off 70Atk, he can run the fire version too and remove Fire Blast's lower accuracy.

Have people forgotten he's supposed to be a special attacker or something? Especially with all the talk about Swords Dance and Dragon Dance?

As it is, the likely best case offensive scenario for him using his special attack stat will be the same way Mixmence or Chain Chomp do. Physical primary with Overheat backing it up.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Have a bold text vote, each move should have yes or no.

A lot of yes/no options there but I think people won't mind much.

TMs we may need to vote on IMO:
Sword Dance
W-o-W
Charge Beam
Brick Break

Most of these move except for Sword Dance seem to be leaning towards "yes" in terms of being in it's movepool. I also can see Rock Slide sneaking it way into it's movepool as well.

 

[Time Mage]

The vast majority of special attackers that use a grass move, be it STABed or not, use Grass Knot. Grass Knot, while not powerful enough on some pokémon, hits much harder on the important threats. So I don't think it's leaving aside its special side just because I don't think a 95 BP move is necessary.

I am, in fact, on the side of those that think that the physical side shouldn't be too prominent, since this is designed to be a special attacker. So I don't think this should get Dragon Dance, Swords Dance or things like that. But with just Grass Knot, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, a Hidden Power (most likely Rock) and a support move this will already work great, so I don't see the need of inventing a move for it.

 

[Dane]

But unless this gets basically no other physical moves, physical/mixed will be better. Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz/Support/Overheat (or a rock physical move, since many seemed to be advocating that earlier too *ugh*). Essentially makes it a Mixmence/Chain Chomp with an inability to hit Fire types decently.

 

[Deck Knight]

If there is no Swords Dance, you can throw in Rock Slide and Brick Break as TMs.

I don't see anything wrong with AncientPower. Nothing stops you from running HP Rock, and it has more base power than AncientPower.

Why not give him Overheat and Leaf Storn? You can't use both, for one thing, and any Fire and Dragon type walls them both. So why not?

Because running Ancientpower allows you to run HP Ice or HP Ground, plus this thing would be cosmically hard to kill with even one AP boost (plus hit like a beast, and be uncritable). It would immediately have more defense than Regirock and rival Regice at least, all without the nasty fighting weak.

Most of the pokemon that would even seriously consider using Ancientpower have a crippling 4x weak (TTar, Heatran, Exeggutor) or would otherwise still be susceptible to attack on their weak defense. This doesn't have a weak defense. It puts Revenankh to shame.

Also, thanks to Rock Head, Blaze Kick and Seed Bomb are flavor options. There is never any reason not to run Wood Hammer and Flare Blitz on a physical set, and almost no reason not to run Rock Head on that physical set. The benefits of hitting a pokemon with a 120 BP 100% Acc STAB move with no drawbacks are too great to choose the trait that blocks a 6% crit chance.

I would have been all for Swords Dance without Rock Head, but this is just too powerful to even consider giving a pokemon this bulky with moves that powerful a +2 attack boost.

 

[Luck]

The whole point of a Fire/Grass is to combine the advantages in one pokemon. I can safely say that we won't be coming back to another Fire/Grass for a while unless popular support for Cartoon's Elk comes into play, so we might as well make Woodman a Fire/Grass to the fullest extent that it's capable of being, including giving it both power moves.
Besides, it's not as if it loses any significant counters by having both 140 base moves, and in fact it's limited even more if it choses to use both.

I used to have that thinking but there was talk of CAPE project which would have evolutions of current pokes and could possibly get a fire/grass from a Sunflora evo or made even a Stanler side evo into the fire elk.The true test is going to come maybe in the next cap project which will have two teams working on two different pokemon.If that is successful done the possibility of CAPE would be closer to reality because it would prove that we could do two projects at the same time.

No need to force all the moves on this poke.It is my belief once we get a couple more experience as team leaders we could support a staggered Cap and Cape project meaning half during the cap,we start a Cape project.

If the Cape project happens for some reason Sunflora is on the short list Pokemon people want to see evolve along with Banette and Farfetched .Your wait for anthother fire/grass won't be that long, no need to force everything into Woodman.

 

[Lil Ant]

Does it matter?

I put this in code tags to not clog up the thread. I encourage others to do the same. This is, mostly, for battling standpoint. Level-up moves can be about any move that it can get in combination with anything. Egg Moves sometimes have illegal combinations. TMs/HMs can always be obtained, and are from a select pool.

I didn't assign numbers to level-up, simply because they're so arbitrary they could be anything. I just picked twelve moves.

Level-up:

[B]Absorb
Ember
Energy Ball
Heat Wave
Hyper Beam
Leer
Pound
SolarBeam[/B]

Flash Cannon
Zap Cannon
Charge Beam

Growth
Will-o-Wisp

With the exception of the support moves, those are (in my opinion) all moves that suit his nature. The order of learning does not matter all that much, besides the obvious facts like "Hyper Beam and SolarBeam should be later than Absorb and Pound".

TMs/HMs:

TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM09 - Bullet Seed
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM21 - Frustrated
TM22 - SolarBeam
TM23 - Iron Tail
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM38 - Fire Blast
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM50 - Overheat

TM53 - Energy Ball
TM56 - Fling
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM60 - Drain Punch
TM61 - Will-o-Wisp
TM66 - Payback
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM77 - Psych Up
TM79 - Dark Pulse
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM90 - Substitute
TM91 - Flash Cannon
HM04 - Strength
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

I am with X-Act on Swords Dance and other attacks, pretty much. I don't see a lot of harm in this thing getting alright physical options with Swords Dance as long as it doesn't become its focus.

Egg:

Ancientpower
Aromatherapy
Leaf Storm
Leech Seed
Synthesis
Wood Hammer
Flare Blitz
Lava Plume

Not this again man, people loving something for this CAP just because it's from a big name. This movepool is seriously and i mean seriously over powering. The guy gets Charge Beam which lets it beat Gyarados and even hurt its checks on the switch and then within the next turn bash them with 120 or 140 STAB moves. The thing even gets Zap Cannon to cripple and destroy most of the checks this guy had. Sure 50 accuracy is horrible, but you can't count out that fact that this thing CAN hit. Even if you don't get a damn about Charge Beam you still can get Growth and raise that 95 base Special Attack with great STAB to go along with it. The biggest thing i have a problem with is Rock Slide and Brick Break. He then leaves 0 chance to be checked or slowed down. He gets to hit all the Fire type and even worst the Fire/Flying type we had this guy countering. Brick Break lets it hit Heatran and Tyranitar. What more is left to stop this guy?

I just think he has too many game breaking options that if one of those things such as ( Charge Beam, Zap Cannon, Rock Slide and Brick Break ) connect he will rip everything apart with nothing to stop him. EVen gets a 50 percent healing move, which lets him tank better than Forretress and Swampert. If this set was proposed by me or Aki you guys would rant about every option i just did. This is utter bullshit and you are ruining this Pokemon by applauding this kind of destruction massacre Mekkah made a movepool. I just think Meaty had a nice point, i think me and Dane should combine our movepools.

 

[Luck]

I would have been all for Swords Dance without Rock Head, but this is just too powerful to even consider giving a pokemon this bulky with moves that powerful a +2 attack boost.

I went looking for bulky pokes with sword dance to see if this statement was true

This list of poke which could fit the bulky role

Cradily, Torterra, Skarmory, Szicor, Empleon, Meganuim, Venasuar, Tangrowth, Armaldo, Rhyperior,Tentacruel,Licklilicky

All the other pokes with sword dance were either uber or could ohko be easily.No recoil 120 attacking moves,sword dance and better defenses than probably all pokes listed above.I agree sword dance is probably not good idea

 

[Bluekikatana]

Not this again man, people loving something for this CAP just because it's from a big name. This movepool is seriously and i mean seriously over powering. The guy gets Charge Beam which lets it beat Gyarados and even hurt its checks on the switch and then within the next turn bash them with 120 or 140 STAB moves. The thing even gets Zap Cannon to cripple and destroy most of the checks this guy had. Sure 50 accuracy is horrible, but you can't count out that fact that this thing CAN hit. Even if you don't get a damn about Charge Beam you still can get Growth and raise that 95 base Special Attack with great STAB to go along with it. The biggest thing i have a problem with is Rock Slide and Brick Break. He then leaves 0 chance to be checked or slowed down. He gets to hit all the Fire type and even worst the Fire/Flying type we had this guy countering. Brick Break lets it hit Heatran and Tyranitar. What more is left to stop this guy?

I just think he has too many game breaking options that if one of those things such as ( Charge Beam, Zap Cannon, Rock Slide and Brick Break ) connect he will rip everything apart with nothing to stop him. EVen gets a 50 percent healing move, which lets him tank better than Forretress and Swampert. If this set was proposed by me or Aki you guys would rant about every option i just did. This is utter bullshit and you are ruining this Pokemon by applauding this kind of destruction massacre Mekkah made a movepool. I just think Meaty had a nice point, i think me and Dane should combine our movepools.

With the shit attack this Pokemon has, it's not going to do too much damage to heatran with brick break, or too much with rock slide. It will need orb or choice band for that.

 

[Lil Ant]

With the shit attack this Pokemon has, it's not going to do too much damage to heatran with brick break, or too much with rock slide. It will need orb or choice band for that.

With or without orb, a bulky heatran is 3hko by Brick Break, and what does heatran do in return? lava plume a pray for a burn?

 

[Bluekikatana]

Someone could easily give it HP ground, that is a lot more threatening to Heatran.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

So far it seem the moves that are the most controversial are:

Charge Beam
Zap Cannon
Rock Slide
Brick Break
Sword Dance
Ancientpower

since it seem like a revolving door of debate over them, I guess that these move are going to be on the poll.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I see alot of people who are worrying about counters, but it seems we are afraid to let any potential counter not counter it. Lets say he gets brick break and rock slide. A set of say

Flare Blitz
Rock Slide
Brick Break
Wood Hammer

would have good coverage, and be a basic choice band set. Would this be scary? YES. Unstoppable? Lets say he uses Wood Hammer. You switch to Skarmory. Skarmory takes jack. You just forced a switch.

Remember, he only get 4 move slots, and is only going to run one set at a time. I see no problem with

Charge Beam (lol)
Zap Cannon (lol)
Rock Slide
Brick Break
AncientPower
Swords Dance (lil iffy)

lets look at what he gets at worst
Two 120 STAB off of 70 Attack
Two 75 BP moves off of his attack for coverage
Ability to Double Attack and increase Special Attack
Leech Seed + Leftovers
Synthesis
Sunny Day Abuse
Two good special stabs off of 95 SpAttk

Now, thats alot of stuff. Synthesis and Swords Dance are pretty iffy, especially together.

He can only run one set at a time though. His special sets will be walled by blissey, and his physical sets will only be able to do so much off of his attack stat and readily revenge killed.

Also, what is with these complaints about him being able to run a physical set? This is like specsmence in several ways. Physical threat, special strength. Never seen a complaint about Salamence being too broken.

 

[Luck]

First we need a real counter list

Posion
Nidoking
Tentcruel
Muk
Drapion
Crobat

Flying
Gyrados
Togekiss
No HP Ice
Salamence
Dragonite
Gliscor

Rock
Cradily
Regirock
T-tar
Aerodactyl

Others

Heatran

-Which is only Fire type i am going to list because Fire types aren't built to live in this metagame,Hence why woodsman is so bulky.

Blissey,Snorlax,Cresselia,Empoleon,Hariyama,Uxie,Ludicolo
-They are more cripplers than counters

Torterra,Garchomp-No Hp ice

Honarable mention

Camerupt
Gardevoir

This should give people an idea of what the move they presenting are doing to the pokes that should be countering.I refuse to list fire type(especially tres and zard) as counters because stealth rock is to heavy of factor in game say woodman is out with stealth rock down you switch in a fire poke take damage from sr,take possible damage switching into an attack,and then probaly can't ohko it.Fire types in theory are good counters but how the game is played make them useless.


So based on my counter list what moves do i recommend it does not get

Ice beam-Hp ice acts functionally the same,but i rather it not get it

Charge Beam-Gyrados one of the most common pokes could counter it with out it,The four move slot syndrome make it a fair move but i say keep it off make G-dos a better counter.

Zap Cannon- same thing a lesser degree.If forced i prefer zap cannon over Charge beam because no sp attack boost

Rock Moves-The four move slot syndrome make them a fair moves.Rockslide and ancient power i rather they did not get them but if forced i pick rockslide over ap because off the no ap boost.

Tail glow,Calm mind,Bulk up,Earthquake-No discussion we are not stupid

Sword Dance,Dragon Dance,Curse-Probably not the only one that has a chance is curse,If we can't name three special attacker that ohko curse should not be a choice.The only offensive stat boost should be howl(we should probaly change the name to hiss how many lizard of have you heard howl) and growth.

Brick Break-It hits Blissey harder with Flare Blitz,Heatran harder Hp ground,and T-tar just about as hard with Woodhammer.Brick break does make all three of those guys mention.Lets see

Woodman@Life Orb
Rock head

Flare Blitz
Brick Break
Hp Ice
Leech seed/Wow/Synthesis/Sunny Day/Howl

If that set worries you then maybe brick break is not good idea.