Yeah, I feel the same way as Doug on this.
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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
No new moves.... It REALLY does not need it.
Regarding the balance of Dragon Dance on this Pokemon...for this example, let's go with the suggestion Dane and I both made of making Wood Hammer/DD egg moves, so that Wood Hammer is illegal with Dragon Dance. This only really affects Gyarados as a counter, but that's still fairly significant. Now, what counters Woodman with DD? (I'll just assume 252 atk/spe, adamant, LO for all calculations)
Gyarados:
Woodman does 32.29% - 38.02% (25.00% - 29.43% with lefties) damage with Seed Bomb after one Dragon Dance, including Intimidate. If it Seed Bombs on the switch, 21.88% - 25.52% (16.67% - 19.79% if Woodman is carrying lefties). This same BulkyGyara does 49.61% - 58.27% back with Stone Edge. Woodman is just barely 3HKOing AFTER a Dragon Dance with LO, and Gyarados is 2HKOing pretty solidly. Without LO, Woodman's damage is pretty pititful. Clearly, Gyara counters DDWoodman very effectively.
Salamence:
Woodman does 23.35% - 27.41% with Return to Aldaron's Fatmence (252 HP / 220 Def, Bold/Impish) after a DD, again including Intimidate. Given that Fatmence always carries a recovery move, there's virtually no way that Woodman can pose a significant threat. Meanwhile, 0 atk/sp atk Salamence is dealing 47.51% - 55.91% with Stone Edge, 43.31% - 50.92% with Aerial Ace, and 30.45% - 35.70% with Dragon Pulse.
Heatran:
Woodman's return does 23.46% - 27.78% to 0/4 Heatran after one DD. Clearly, DD Woodman isn't touching Heatran anytime soon. Heatran does only 35.17% - 41.21% damage back with Flamethrower (0 sp atk), but it hardly matters because Woodman is dealing pitiful damage and/or damaging itself with recoil (not to mention 0 sp atk Heatran would only be seen on defensive sets, which are at even less risk). In a more realistic 0/4 Heatran situation, Specstran will 2HKO with Flamethrower, as will Scarf Heatran with Fire Blast.
Moltres:
Woodman does 34.64% - 40.78% with Return against Sarenji's defensive Moltres (248 hp/148 def, Bold) after one DD, while Moltres does 33.86% - 39.90% back with Flamethrower or 53.28% - 62.73% with Air Slash. It's only a true counter if it carries Air Slash, but otherwise it's still capable of dealing a fair amount of damage to Woodman.
Togekiss:
Woodman does 78.34% - 91.98% with Flare Blitz against 252 HP Togekiss after a DD. Clearly, Togekiss isn't going to be an effective counter to this, but it can switch in, take one attack, and then deal a lot of damage with Air Slash.
Again, remember that ALL of these calcs are done with 252 attack, Adamant, 1 DD, and LO, unless stated otherwise. If there are at least 3 hard, top-level OU counters (none of which are beaten by the same Hidden Power) and plenty of other checks, I think it's safe to say that DD won't be overpowered on Woodman.
Gyarados:
Woodman does 32.29% - 38.02% (25.00% - 29.43% with lefties) damage with Seed Bomb after one Dragon Dance, including Intimidate. If it Seed Bombs on the switch, 21.88% - 25.52% (16.67% - 19.79% if Woodman is carrying lefties). This same BulkyGyara does 49.61% - 58.27% back with Stone Edge. Woodman is just barely 3HKOing AFTER a Dragon Dance with LO, and Gyarados is 2HKOing pretty solidly. Without LO, Woodman's damage is pretty pititful. Clearly, Gyara counters DDWoodman very effectively.
Salamence:
Woodman does 23.35% - 27.41% with Return to Aldaron's Fatmence (252 HP / 220 Def, Bold/Impish) after a DD, again including Intimidate. Given that Fatmence always carries a recovery move, there's virtually no way that Woodman can pose a significant threat. Meanwhile, 0 atk/sp atk Salamence is dealing 47.51% - 55.91% with Stone Edge, 43.31% - 50.92% with Aerial Ace, and 30.45% - 35.70% with Dragon Pulse.
Heatran:
Woodman's return does 23.46% - 27.78% to 0/4 Heatran after one DD. Clearly, DD Woodman isn't touching Heatran anytime soon. Heatran does only 35.17% - 41.21% damage back with Flamethrower (0 sp atk), but it hardly matters because Woodman is dealing pitiful damage and/or damaging itself with recoil (not to mention 0 sp atk Heatran would only be seen on defensive sets, which are at even less risk). In a more realistic 0/4 Heatran situation, Specstran will 2HKO with Flamethrower, as will Scarf Heatran with Fire Blast.
Moltres:
Woodman does 34.64% - 40.78% with Return against Sarenji's defensive Moltres (248 hp/148 def, Bold) after one DD, while Moltres does 33.86% - 39.90% back with Flamethrower or 53.28% - 62.73% with Air Slash. It's only a true counter if it carries Air Slash, but otherwise it's still capable of dealing a fair amount of damage to Woodman.
Togekiss:
Woodman does 78.34% - 91.98% with Flare Blitz against 252 HP Togekiss after a DD. Clearly, Togekiss isn't going to be an effective counter to this, but it can switch in, take one attack, and then deal a lot of damage with Air Slash.
Again, remember that ALL of these calcs are done with 252 attack, Adamant, 1 DD, and LO, unless stated otherwise. If there are at least 3 hard, top-level OU counters (none of which are beaten by the same Hidden Power) and plenty of other checks, I think it's safe to say that DD won't be overpowered on Woodman.
Time for big long post.
Physical movepool and boosters
Bulk Up [NO]
This thing makes Revenankh look like Wigglytuff when it comes to bulk. After a Bulk-Up it has more defense than Regirock, and the same attack as Breloom (assuming same EV's/Nature), plus massive SD still.
Curse [NO]
The only difference between Curse and Bulk Up is that Curse makes it more viable on and against Trick Room teams. This is already so slow and unlikely to invest Speed EVs that there is no effective difference between Curse and Bulk Up.
Swords Dance [NO]
Wood Hammer is already equivalent to Breloom's Seed Bomb in damage. This is Bulky enough to always get off a Swords Dance, at which point it will have 524 Atk.
Dragon Dance [NO]
No seriously, what drugs are you taking. We're taking a pokemon with 1 less Base Speed point, that tanks better than Tyranitar, with access to two more powerful STABS, with no crippling weaknesses to Fighting, Bug, and Ground, and we're giving it Dragon Dance? Even if it could only get Flare Blitz and Dragon Dance together it would still be too much.
- Brick Break [YES]
TBH Brick Break is inferior to Wood Hammer or Flare Blitz on basically every pokemon except Heatran. Heatran already has enough power so I say whatever.
- Rock Slide [NO]
Fire types are among the few checks on this. Rock Slide removes most of them, leaving only Intimidate Arcanine and Heatran to oppose it.
Wood Hammer and/or Flare Blitz [YES]
Both of these work from a flavor perspective. I'd rather we make this pokemon Plant/Monster. It can get Flare Blitz from Charizard and Wood Hammer from Torterra. If you put it in the Dragon Group it has to have access to Dragon Pulse. Besides, Monster has a lot cooler pokemon in it. This has no reason to breed with Gyarados.
Utility
Stun Spore [NO]
Giving it Stun Spore is a stretch as far as logic, but it also removes the threatening power of most of its counters. They'll probably sill beat it, but it cripples them against anything else in battle.
Reflect/Light Screen [YES/NO]
Reflect is alright by me, it increases the larger defense that few pokemon will ever attack it on bar Arcanine, who still counters it all the way. Light Screen gives it too much leeway against its standard counters. Reflect might screw up Gyara Stone Edge, but honestly, Gyarados isn't a counter to this and never was. Having an SE move against something does not make you a counter.
Synthesis [YES]
Synthesis fits well with its other abilities and makes it a good wall. If it doesn't have any boosting moves then you don't have to worry about it sweeping much, and it might bring back weather users not named Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow.
Special Attacks
Zap Cannon [NO]
This is Thunder with 100% paralysis and auto-sunlight accuracy. It has the same Paralyzation problem as Stun Spore does except it completely annihalates or disables a lot of checks.
Charge Beam [YES]
It fits the cannon theme, isn't overpowered, and any time it misses or doesn't boost special attack it is a wasted turn. It barely outpowers Grass Knot vs/ Gyarados.
Ancientpower [NO]
An Ancientpower boost to any set with Synthesis would be overkill. You would have almost no way to defeat it outside of Toxistalling. It also helps it too much against Charizard and Moltres, and puts the other fire type checks on guard. Sure, you can use HP Rock and outpower, but HP Rock doesn't have a 10% chance of turning you into a god among mortals, and can't be used in conjuction with HP Ground or HP Ice.
Leaf Storm [YES]
Leaf Storm is high-risk high-reward that can either slaughter a Kingdra switchin or leave you completely helpless against a fire or dragon type. It does no good to have HP Rock if you just did lol% to a Moltres switchin with Leaf Storm.
Physical movepool and boosters
Bulk Up [NO]
This thing makes Revenankh look like Wigglytuff when it comes to bulk. After a Bulk-Up it has more defense than Regirock, and the same attack as Breloom (assuming same EV's/Nature), plus massive SD still.
Curse [NO]
The only difference between Curse and Bulk Up is that Curse makes it more viable on and against Trick Room teams. This is already so slow and unlikely to invest Speed EVs that there is no effective difference between Curse and Bulk Up.
Swords Dance [NO]
Wood Hammer is already equivalent to Breloom's Seed Bomb in damage. This is Bulky enough to always get off a Swords Dance, at which point it will have 524 Atk.
Dragon Dance [NO]
No seriously, what drugs are you taking. We're taking a pokemon with 1 less Base Speed point, that tanks better than Tyranitar, with access to two more powerful STABS, with no crippling weaknesses to Fighting, Bug, and Ground, and we're giving it Dragon Dance? Even if it could only get Flare Blitz and Dragon Dance together it would still be too much.
- Brick Break [YES]
TBH Brick Break is inferior to Wood Hammer or Flare Blitz on basically every pokemon except Heatran. Heatran already has enough power so I say whatever.
- Rock Slide [NO]
Fire types are among the few checks on this. Rock Slide removes most of them, leaving only Intimidate Arcanine and Heatran to oppose it.
Wood Hammer and/or Flare Blitz [YES]
Both of these work from a flavor perspective. I'd rather we make this pokemon Plant/Monster. It can get Flare Blitz from Charizard and Wood Hammer from Torterra. If you put it in the Dragon Group it has to have access to Dragon Pulse. Besides, Monster has a lot cooler pokemon in it. This has no reason to breed with Gyarados.
Utility
Stun Spore [NO]
Giving it Stun Spore is a stretch as far as logic, but it also removes the threatening power of most of its counters. They'll probably sill beat it, but it cripples them against anything else in battle.
Reflect/Light Screen [YES/NO]
Reflect is alright by me, it increases the larger defense that few pokemon will ever attack it on bar Arcanine, who still counters it all the way. Light Screen gives it too much leeway against its standard counters. Reflect might screw up Gyara Stone Edge, but honestly, Gyarados isn't a counter to this and never was. Having an SE move against something does not make you a counter.
Synthesis [YES]
Synthesis fits well with its other abilities and makes it a good wall. If it doesn't have any boosting moves then you don't have to worry about it sweeping much, and it might bring back weather users not named Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Abomasnow.
Special Attacks
Zap Cannon [NO]
This is Thunder with 100% paralysis and auto-sunlight accuracy. It has the same Paralyzation problem as Stun Spore does except it completely annihalates or disables a lot of checks.
Charge Beam [YES]
It fits the cannon theme, isn't overpowered, and any time it misses or doesn't boost special attack it is a wasted turn. It barely outpowers Grass Knot vs/ Gyarados.
Ancientpower [NO]
An Ancientpower boost to any set with Synthesis would be overkill. You would have almost no way to defeat it outside of Toxistalling. It also helps it too much against Charizard and Moltres, and puts the other fire type checks on guard. Sure, you can use HP Rock and outpower, but HP Rock doesn't have a 10% chance of turning you into a god among mortals, and can't be used in conjuction with HP Ground or HP Ice.
Leaf Storm [YES]
Leaf Storm is high-risk high-reward that can either slaughter a Kingdra switchin or leave you completely helpless against a fire or dragon type. It does no good to have HP Rock if you just did lol% to a Moltres switchin with Leaf Storm.
Just to pitch in as someone who has the most direct work with this thing's spread...
After running calculations on a script that literally reach the 3rd or 4th degree in terms of battle "deepness..." I am beginning to lose my doubts about a few questionable moves.
To spare the CaP project another Aldaron tl;dr post...I, as the individual with the most direct "experience" with this spread, have NO problem with TESTING Stun Spore, Rock Throw (I do still, however, have a problem with Rock Slide), Dragon Dance, SWORDS DANCE, Growth, Curse, Zap Cannon or Reflect / Light Screen.
To quote a wise sage...
Have a nice day.
After running calculations on a script that literally reach the 3rd or 4th degree in terms of battle "deepness..." I am beginning to lose my doubts about a few questionable moves.
To spare the CaP project another Aldaron tl;dr post...I, as the individual with the most direct "experience" with this spread, have NO problem with TESTING Stun Spore, Rock Throw (I do still, however, have a problem with Rock Slide), Dragon Dance, SWORDS DANCE, Growth, Curse, Zap Cannon or Reflect / Light Screen.
To quote a wise sage...
Have a nice day.
So what you're saying is most of these pokemon need their most defensive spreads to counter DDWoodman, and you've assume this is going to use Life Orb rather than Leftovers and only DD Once.
Woodman @ Leftovers/Lum Berry
<Rock Head>
Naughty (+Atk, -SD)
252 Atk/196 Speed/60 SA
Flare Blitz
Dragon Dance
Brick Brick
Hidden Power [Ice (/Electric/Rock)]
This reaches 307 Speed after a Dragon Dance, which is faster than all of these would-be counters.
Affter DD, Atk is 393, SA is 241.
HP Ice on "Fatmence": 64-75%
HP Electric on Bulkydos: 54-64%
HP Electric on Moltres: 31-36%
HP Rock on "Fatmence": 31-37%
HP Rock on Bulkydos: 27-32%
HP Rock on Moltres: 62-72%
Brick Break on 52HP Heatran: 51-60%
Flare Blitz on 252 HP Togekiss 60-71%.
In other words, it 2HKOs all of those pokemon except Moltres, and none of them 2HKO it. Only Moltres remains a solid counter, which it is supposed to be anyway.
Now I grant you I assumed this had Brick Break, but BB seems to have a decent amount of support. Either way nothing specifically says this can't be mixed, and all my calcs are without Life Orb. If you chose Lum Berry instead of Leftovers, you wouldn't be as durable, but Togekiss would simply end up wasting its time with Thunder Wave and be roundly slaughtered.
Woodman's Hidden Power determines its counters. Unless Gyarados wants to brave a potential Specs Grass Knot, it won't switch in very often. Mence on the other hand will switch in often and is otherwise a hard counter, so HP Ice is probably your best choice. HP Rock only really hurts Moltres and doesn't do enough to Gyara unless Stealth Rock is down. This set has at best one hard counter: Moltres.
TBH I actually was planning on placing a new move onto this creature during the movepool poll, but after seeing Choloray's attack description I decided against it.
BTW, why everyone voting now? I haven't opened the poll yet.
Alrighty, so that's all the material that seem to need to be voted on?
If Brick Break and Rock Slide are on the voting list, I'd like Aura Sphere to be there too. It might be a little stronger, but it doesn't break walls, and all three of the main problem Pokemon weak to fighting have better or equal Defense when compared to Special Defense anyway.
Plus, shooting an orb of pure inner energy seems like something it could do.
Plus, shooting an orb of pure inner energy seems like something it could do.
Aura Sphere has 3 things that make it worse than Brick Break:
1: It is so rare already that it would be almost impossible to justify.
2: Has a higher BP and Accuracy than Brick Break, as well as being used off the higher attack stat.
3: Further reduces the pressure to use HP Ground to strike down Heatran, since Aura Sphere is much more solid move overall.
Que?
I don't see why we have to give every single pokemon a Syclant-sized Movepool.
I also don't buy anything about "testing" because to date we've never, ever removed anything from a CAP Pokemon's movepool. Syclant still has Tail Glow even after we went through 3 months developing Revenankh. Currently our playtesting aspect is a joke. As of this post, any move has stayed always and forever on the pokemon, even if, like Tail Glow, it was added after an official vote.
I said I didn't mind Aura Sphere for testing, like I specified in the Special Fighting statement. I am against it yes, but I am also up for testing. What is confusing about that?
I do agree that our current playtesting is a joke, but I know Mekkah and Doug have talked about that issue on irc, and we are going to develop a more in detail and stringent policy for it eventually anyway, so I'll continue holding hope that eventually we might actually remove things.
I do agree that our current playtesting is a joke, but I know Mekkah and Doug have talked about that issue on irc, and we are going to develop a more in detail and stringent policy for it eventually anyway, so I'll continue holding hope that eventually we might actually remove things.
I'm just saying, if Brick Break and Rock Slide get on the vote list, Aura Sphere should too. The three main Pokemon that would be affected are Tyranitar, Heatran, and Blissey.
Heatran has equal defenses, and 180BP is worse against it than 280 (HP Ground).
Blissey's Special defense far outweighs her defense, so Aura Sphere would be weaker overall compared to Brick Break. Plus, Aura Sphere and Fire Blast hits her just as hard, so it's basically a null argument anyway as it's no more effective than Fire Blast. Plus, Fire Blast can burn which this can't. It's only upside is the accuracy.
Tyranitar is the only one it really affects. Even then, not so much. It would hit just as hard as Grass Knot. Grass Knot hits at 120 BP * STAB * weakness. That's 360 BP, same as Aura Sphere. Plus, after Sandstorm, his special defense is better than his defense anyway. Not sure how much that would affect it since it's not as monstrous a difference as Blissey's is, but still.
Heatran has equal defenses, and 180BP is worse against it than 280 (HP Ground).
Blissey's Special defense far outweighs her defense, so Aura Sphere would be weaker overall compared to Brick Break. Plus, Aura Sphere and Fire Blast hits her just as hard, so it's basically a null argument anyway as it's no more effective than Fire Blast. Plus, Fire Blast can burn which this can't. It's only upside is the accuracy.
Tyranitar is the only one it really affects. Even then, not so much. It would hit just as hard as Grass Knot. Grass Knot hits at 120 BP * STAB * weakness. That's 360 BP, same as Aura Sphere. Plus, after Sandstorm, his special defense is better than his defense anyway. Not sure how much that would affect it since it's not as monstrous a difference as Blissey's is, but still.
If these Pokemon are using more offensive spreads, their 3HKO's and questionable 2HKOs will turn into solid 2HKOs (though I don't think there's any real check that can 1HKO), but Woodman's attacks will be stronger. Defensive spreads are usually more potent if you're trying to survive something's attacks (and since you're not 1HKOing, defensive spreads are usually better), and it's not as though any of the spreads I mentioned are made specifically to counter Woodman, all of them were made for the original 493 metagame.
I offered calculations for LO because most of the time, Woodman's not really doing enough damage to threaten these Pokemon significantly anyways.
Yeah, if you're somehow running Hidden Power Ice and Electric on the same set, it 2HKO's all its counters (sans Moltres). Either Salamence or Gyarados will counter it, and both of them are still surviving to deal damage back anyways (unless you hit them with HP on the switch, in which case they'll both be faster since you haven't DD'd and still get a free hit on you anyways). I also notice your set lacks a physical Grass move, which means that Gyara beats it much worse if it's without HP Elec and suddenly a whole lot more things enter the realm of potential counters or checks.
Brick Break is the biggest deciding factor here, IMO. To be honest, I don't see why there's so much support for it - it's worthless against Blissey since Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer will always be stronger (150 bp vs 180, unless you're using it on a mixed set with Battle Armor in which case it'd require a ton of attack investment to actually do something), so the only real purpose of it seems to be nullifying one of its other counters, Heatran.
Blissey is a fail example when talking about special attacks. Moreover, Aura Sphere is more powerful than FB on Blissey since Aura Sphere misses 0% of the time while Fire Blast misses 15% of the time. Aura Sphere is specifically better than Fire Blast against every Fire Pokemon as well, and every Dragon except the fliers for the same reason.
But against every fire Pokemon (excluding the ground hybrid ones, but including Charizard and Moltres which you didn't include) and every Dragon except Garchomp and Flygon, HP Rock is better than any of them.
So if you could have 150BP HP Rock or 90BP Aura Sphere, which is the more likely choice to make his 4 slots?
So if you could have 150BP HP Rock or 90BP Aura Sphere, which is the more likely choice to make his 4 slots?
It's more you can do this all at once:
- Hit most things with Fire Blast and Grass Knot for enough damage that they want to stay out.
- Now have a guaranteed 2HKO (at least) on Heatran.
- Have at least a guaranteed 2HKO on the Fire-types and Flying Dragons.
Doing all that at once is what makes it so bad. Same thing applies to Ancient Power, except you use the Hidden Power for Heatran.
It should be a member of the Monster or Ground egg group.
It should also learn Swords dance.
And Recover should be a move, maybe synthesis.
I think It should learn blast Burn by tutor. I really think it has that power/potential.
Flash should come out of it's moveset though. It's wasting his moveset.
Add Flame Wheel. I really like it and this thing looks ready to roll. (couldn't avoid the pun)
It should also learn Swords dance.
And Recover should be a move, maybe synthesis.
I think It should learn blast Burn by tutor. I really think it has that power/potential.
Flash should come out of it's moveset though. It's wasting his moveset.
Add Flame Wheel. I really like it and this thing looks ready to roll. (couldn't avoid the pun)
Your opponent isn't going to mystically know what HP you're running until it is too late. A physical Grass move is pointless on the DD set since all of your hard counters for every Woodman set are neutral to or resist Grass. This set derives no competitive advantage from having a physical Grass move unless your opponent believes it wise to switch Tyranitar (KO'd by BB anyway), Swampert, or Hippowdon into this. The very threat that this could be packing a STAB Grass move almost sure to OHKO or 2HKO them is enough to ward them off.Fishin said:
Its 4MS. Your opponent has no idea what actually counters your pokemon, so they will switch in the most likely counter, in this case Moltres or Salamence.
Moreover, your assertion that Life Orb is a valid assumption because Woodman cannot threaten these pokemon without it is clearly false, as indicated by my Life-Orb free numbers. My Spread 2HKO's these counters without Life Orb, yours will 2HKO them with Life Orb. It doesn't matter whether you're dealing 54% minimum or 78% mimimum, you're still 2HKOing. The only thing LO does in that instance is give your opponent free damage. The only difference is really Togekiss with Stealth Rock out, but with Lum Berry Togekiss cannot hope to cripple you before you defeat it.
Moreover, since the spread I gave is faster than all these pokemon (bar Mence) even if they have +Speed natures, the opponent hits second and therefore loses the 2HKO war. Only Salamence has the Base Speed neccesary to beat the 307 speed the spread has after a DD. If Salamence is using that much speed, then it can't be nearly as defensive, nor reach the crazy 405 Atk it is capable of, and therefore the 2HKO is guarenteed. As a matter of fact except for HP Elec on Bulkydos, the SA EVs are a waste and could go into HP or Defense. The EV spread really isn't even that polished, and could probably afford to give up some attack to ensure it survives specific hits.
Before investment, Woodman already has 381 HP/286/194 Defenses (w) Naughty. It isn't just going to roll over on any random attack, even an SE one.
Gyarados isn't even a check on this pokemon. It fails to 2HKO the Bulky versions as it can't rely on a Stone Edge crit, and Grass Knot hits it STAB for 120 BP. Sure, you can switch Gyarados in, just don't expect any set capable of handling it to do anything except thank you for allowing your sweeper to be killed.
Give it Fire Punch. The thing is, artwise, made for it
Aura Sphere, exclusive? In the sense of someone's signature move or the fact that it's only been given to a small pool of pokemon?
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