CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)

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Level Moves:- Wood Hammer (Heart Scale)- Flare Blitz (Heart Scale)1. Leer 1. Growl1. Pound5. Bullet Seed (Cannon)9. Focus Energy13. Ember (Cannon)17. Growth21. Leech Seed (Cannon)25. Fire Fang29. Ancient Power (Cannon)33. Slam37. Energy Ball (Cannon)41. Stun Spore45. Seed Bomb (Cannon)49. Rage53. Flamethrower (Cannon)57. Screech61. Flash Cannon (Cannon)65. Will-o-Wisp68. Hyper Beam (Cannon)Egg Moves (Plant/Dragon):CrunchWorry SeedDouble KickLeaf StormIngrainSynthesisAromatherapy
I wouldn't mind that help again Doug...
 
Not giving a fire type willow wisp is the same as not giving a poison type toxic. It just seems standard in 4th gen. I don't know of any fire Pokemon that can't learn willow wisp.
 
I don't see Giga Impact.... ;)

Obviously, if we're giving this thing Hyper Beam, the physical equivalent should be included as well, right?
 
Just one question: Where are the leaves this thing is using to use Leaf Storm? More importantly, are we really giving this thing Overheat and Leaf Storm?
 
Overheat seems to be a given, but Leaf Storm? I don't see how that fits. It also would seem to be overpowered, Hitting tar is always a bad thing for this.
 

Aldaron

geriatric
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K...hmm let me see.

120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe

Earthquake would help against Tentacruel, Tyranitar and most Fires (I'm looking at Heatran specifically)

Also, I'd like to emphasize how giving it Earthquake wouldn't hurt Tentacruel (since as you mentioned, the 180 BP of Woodhammer is only 10% less than the 200 BP of Earthquake) as much as it would hurt Fire types (especially Heatran) in general. Fire types are already considered to be strong checks against this, and eliminating that would be slightly sad =/

Anyway, to 2HKO 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel with Leftovers every time with a non-STAB Earthquake, you need 224 Attack.

252 HP / 192 Atk / 56 SpA Quiet nature yields 444 HP / 224 Atk / 246 Def / 261 SpA / 216 SpD / 140 Spe

(A pure physical set, btw, with WoodHammer would require 248 minimum Atk to 2HKO 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel with Leftovers...meaning of course you would have to run a +Atk nature and lower Woodman's overall effectiveness, a more acceptable sacrifice to beating Tentacruel)

With this set, I would run Earthquake, Flamethrower, Leech Seed, and Rest / Grass Knot. The last slot would be entirely dependent on my team...beat Gyarados everytime or not be crippled by Toxic?

This set 2HKOs Tentacruel everytime, and a STAB Flamethrower from a modest 261 SpA that directly complements Leech Seed and stops Blissey's / Snorlax's attempt to counter you. Even scarier is that with Earthquake and Howl (something it looks like this is definitely going to get), Woodman has a chance to OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel with 252 Atk EVs, whereas with Woodhammer that OHKO is never possible. It is various little issues like that cause me to hesitate extremely when viewing Earthquake as a viable option.

But even more worse than that is that Heatran's only hope to kill you is to first have one of its teammates die, and then run 306 Atk (252 Atk +Atk nature btw, lol) to hope to always OHKO this Woodman with Explosion. If it had Life Orb, it would still need 76 Atk EVs and a neutral nature to always OHKO this Woodman. What does this mean...by giving our Pokemon Earthquake...we have removed Heatran as a check completely.

Pretty much every other Fire, besides Arcanine (it has to run Intimidate), Charizard and Moltres, is 2HKOd by a 224 Atk Earthquake, assuming their standard EV spreads. If Stealth Rock is down? Forget about it.

My hesitation for Earthquake / Stone Edge is built predominantly on removing Fires as viable checks, but both also significantly hurt the rest of its checks.

With Leech Seed + Fire STAB, you can easily run a mixed set with less Special Attacking prowess simply because you are bulky enough to withstand a few hits, and Leech Seed provides some extra oomph. You can then pump the EVs into Attack and HP in order to simultaneously increase Attacking Prowess to 2HKO your threats and increase your overall defensive capabilities.

Giving this Earthquake and eliminating Fire Pokemon as checks would be a sad occurrence indeed, especially since one of the hopeful decentralization effects of releasing this Pokemon into the metagame was to increase the usage of Fire types in general. With Earthquake, this hope is destroyed.
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
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If there is no Swords Dance, you can throw in Rock Slide and Brick Break as TMs.

I don't see anything wrong with AncientPower. Nothing stops you from running HP Rock, and it has more base power than AncientPower.

Why not give him Overheat and Leaf Storn? You can't use both, for one thing, and any Fire and Dragon type walls them both. So why not?
 
No healing, No Stat Buff ups, Crappy Attacking stats, Much better defences options than this pokemon, Tons of common counters.

Can you tell me why any one should use this pokemon if he sucks in every way?
 
Awesome stab, SubSeed, Wall Breaking Capabilities, 3 uncommon weaknesses, NO CRITICAL HITS, Movepool options that are justified and almost limitless.
 
Awesome stab awesome stab? sure, but he has a very crappy attacking stat to back it up, SubSeed Breloom deos the job much better, Wall Breaking Capabilities ? the only ones he can break are Bronzong, Hippowdon and some water ones, 3 uncommon weaknesses Rock and Flying uncommon???, NO CRITICAL HITS yay, Movepool options that are justified and almost limitless limitless? this thing would get very lucky if he got any spores, he gets no healing move except rest, no Buffs, only good offensive moves he gets are Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Seed Bomb and others that are ALL grass and fire any other move that isn't of that type is bieng said that would make this guy broken and like i said this moves are all backed up by a crappy attacking stat with NO buffs up.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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TM/HM list

Reposting this so more people will see it.
X-Act and a few other people have looked over this.

A list of possible learn able TM/HMs.

Bold is debatable for balance.
Italic is debatable for flavour.
Both is debatable for both.

Remember this thing has 70 base attack and 95 base Sp. attack, but great defences.

Tm's/HM's:
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 08-Bulk Up
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 28-Dig
TM 30-Shadow Ball kinda fits but not very
TM 31-Brick Break: only 75 base power, lets it do something to Blissey. It also lets it take on Heatran if you invest a lot in attack.
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave could stop flying Pokemon.
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 40-Aerial Ace (Tyranitar gets it, come on)
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 52-Focus Blast lets Growth-Woodman fight Blissey/Tran, it fits well from a flavour perspective though.
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 56-Fling
TM 57-Charge Beam
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp mmm... this would stop TTar in its tracks and make any Phy. counter useless IMO not a good idea.
TM 66-Payback
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 75-Sword Dance hmm with a decent movepool SD could work well, maybe too well.
TM 76-Stealth Rock
TM 80-Rock Slide
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 84-Poison Jab
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 89-U-Turn
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon

HM 04-Strength
HM 06-Rock Smash
HM 08-Rock Climb

TMs we may need to vote on IMO:
W-o-W
Charge Beam
Sword Dance
Brick Break
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Eric, please explain why Calm Mind is on that list? I don't quite follow the logic behind giving this creature that move.
there was a little support for it, I think it would be both broken and not fit (so its bold and italic).
Anyway removing

no need for Shock wave as a STAB Fire blast with 180 BP would do more than a SE Shock Wave with 120 BP
What about on fire/flying Pokemon? there its 120BP V 90 BP.
admittedly its not an amazing move for this Pokemon but it does fit (his cannons could make shock waves IMO)
 

X-Act

np: Biffy Clyro - Shock Shock
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
My opinion on eric's list:

Bulk Up: Hmm....... no. I'd give it Curse instead as an egg move, though. But I don't see this Pokemon bulking up... sorry.
Dig: Sure.
Shadow Ball: I don't care either way.
Brick Break: Yes.
Shock Wave: I like it.
Aerial Ace: I don't care either way.
Focus Blast: A definite no. 120 power with 95 stat hitting x4 against T-Tar, x2 against Heatran and x2 against Blissey, with Growth support... I don't like those odds, especially since those 3 Pokemon appear to be among the top counters of this Pokemon.
Charge Beam: Growth is there, and Shock Wave is there. So sure.
Will-o-wisp: Well, every Fire type gets it. So this one should get it as well.
Swords Dance: I'd prefer only Curse, or, for that matter, only Bulk Up. 524 Attack hitting with Brick Break/Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer with Rock Head is a bit too good I think.
Rock Slide: Yes.
Poison Jab: Well I don't see this Pokemon jabbing, but I don't care either way.
Swagger: Yeah, on second thoughts this Pokemon CAN swagger. :) So yes.
U-turn: I don't care either way.

My stance is the following:

If this Pokemon gets Swords Dance, it must lose Brick Break or Rock Slide.
If this Pokemon doesn't get Swords Dance, it should get both Brick Break and Rock Slide.
 
Wow...am I the first person to noticed this?
I think one other person may have mentioned it too. I basically just needed another beam move in the special spectrum, because too many special ones were ending up as TMs and his movepool was lopsiding to physical.
 
Tekkan, shut the fuck up. If you don't like it, then don't use it. PROBLEM SOLVED.

Dane, this thing can't get aura sphere. It takes out it's counters and checks.

X-Act, I think even BB Would be pushing it a little. 200 attack stat nabs the 2KO on CBTar 100% of the time, and Boah about 50%. If we give it any attack boosting whatsoever, we cannot give it BB.

CBWoodman BB, Adamant 252 to 256 def T-tar: 332-392

Wow. OHKO's all Tar variants bar CBTar, which it OHKO's anyway. Outspeeds the standard 60hp variant as well.

Eric, i honestly don't know what you're doing. Calm mind, SD, BULK UP, FOCUS BLAST??

Way needs a re-look at that. ALso, i don't see how this thing gets Poison Jab. Think of the cannon as a AK-47: I can poke you with it, but it's just better to shoot you with it. Besides, how does it generate the poison?

Aerial Ace made me lol irl. Hey, lets give this thing AA just because tar learns is! Number of things hit harder then a STAB Move or a HP: Zilch. Any reasoning behind it? Zilch. This thing is slower then tar, and also tar looks like it could swing that tail/Swipe those arms fast. Big muscles there.

Dig again made me lol. Not only totally useless, but how does this thing dig? Shooting mini hyper beamz into the ground? it sounds good, but for the lol factor.

Either way, i still wanna know people's opinions on Blast Burn, Zap cannon and Lock on/Mind reader. I wanna run a gimmick set which is

Woodman@LO
252/252 Hp/SpA
-Blast Burn
-Zap Cannon
-Lock on/Mind reader
-Hyper beam

and just fuck noobs up with it.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
My opinion on eric's list:

Bulk Up: Hmm....... no. I'd give it Curse instead as an egg move, though. But I don't see this Pokemon bulking up... sorry.
not everyone has Curse as an egg move, if it misses out on BU, SD and curse then it has a wasted ability. I can kinda see it using Bulk Up and the power difference between the BU and Curse is very small. anyway if it does not get this it should get Curse or SD.
Dig: Sure.
Shadow Ball: I don't care either way.
right
Brick Break: Yes.
Shock Wave: I like it.
Aerial Ace: I don't care either way.
Focus Blast: A definite no. 120 power with 95 stat hitting x4 against T-Tar, x2 against Heatran and x2 against Blissey, with Growth support... I don't like those odds, especially since those 3 Pokemon appear to be among the top counters of this Pokemon.
mmmm I would agree with you there it would be broken, However it does fit flavorwise and I have seen some support for it.
Charge Beam: Growth is there, and Shock Wave is there. So sure.
Will-o-wisp: Well, every Fire type gets it. So this one should get it as well.
Swords Dance: I'd prefer only Curse, or, for that matter, only Bulk Up. 524 Attack hitting with Brick Break/Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer with Rock Head is a bit too good I think.
I disagree here. it has only 70 base attack, but i can see it may be a bit too strong.
Rock Slide: Yes.
Poison Jab: Well I don't see this Pokemon jabbing, but I don't care either way.
Swagger: Yeah, on second thoughts this Pokemon CAN swagger. :) So yes.
U-turn: I don't care either way.

My stance is the following:

If this Pokemon gets Swords Dance, it must lose Brick Break or Rock Slide.
If this Pokemon doesn't get Swords Dance, it should get both Brick Break and Rock Slide.
think about it if it losses one of Brick Break or Rock Slide it can run a Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz/Sword Dance/whichever it does not lose set. Unless one is better than the other and we get rid of the better one it will not make much difference.


Anyway G_T would it be possible to use the TM/HM list and have Bold Text votes on contentious moves in the next poll?
People can suggest new moves to add and ones to remove in this poll.

Eric, i honestly don't know what you're doing. Calm mind, SD, BULK UP, FOCUS BLAST??
calm down, I was listing things i have seen support for, I made them bold as i think they may be unbalanced.

AA will be removed unless someone else supports it.
Poison Jab will be removed unless someone else supports it.
Dig was X-Acts idea, ask him.


Right does anyone know where i can find a full list of Move Tutor moves?
 
Tekkan, shut the fuck up. If you don't like it, then don't use it. PROBLEM SOLVED.

Dane, this thing can't get aura sphere. It takes out it's counters and checks.

X-Act, I think even BB Would be pushing it a little. 200 attack stat nabs the 2KO on CBTar 100% of the time, and Boah about 50%. If we give it any attack boosting whatsoever, we cannot give it BB.

CBWoodman BB, Adamant 252 to 256 def T-tar: 332-392

Wow. OHKO's all Tar variants bar CBTar, which it OHKO's anyway. Outspeeds the standard 60hp variant as well.

Eric, i honestly don't know what you're doing. Calm mind, SD, BULK UP, FOCUS BLAST??

Way needs a re-look at that. ALso, i don't see how this thing gets Poison Jab. Think of the cannon as a AK-47: I can poke you with it, but it's just better to shoot you with it. Besides, how does it generate the poison?

Aerial Ace made me lol irl. Hey, lets give this thing AA just because tar learns is! Number of things hit harder then a STAB Move or a HP: Zilch. Any reasoning behind it? Zilch. This thing is slower then tar, and also tar looks like it could swing that tail/Swipe those arms fast. Big muscles there.

Dig again made me lol. Not only totally useless, but how does this thing dig? Shooting mini hyper beamz into the ground? it sounds good, but for the lol factor.

Either way, i still wanna know people's opinions on Blast Burn, Zap cannon and Lock on/Mind reader. I wanna run a gimmick set which is

Woodman@LO
252/252 Hp/SpA
-Blast Burn
-Zap Cannon
-Lock on/Mind reader
-Hyper beam

and just fuck noobs up with it.
Every third post of yours seem to be a flame or leads to a flame.I am just hope people in charge see this.You are smart enough post with out being a jackass.They will come a point where mods final get feed up and say you can't be a part of the cap process.Strongly support your post is one thing being an ass does not help the process.
 
1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?hm... im for no.

2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)?no stat buffs (ok maybe calm mind)

3. Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those slots, then what moves do you want in them?
Many cannon based moves either suck, or they are the opposite: too good, remove counters. Think Charge Beam, Ice Beam, etc. I do think that in addition to its standard Grass/Fire stuff (Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Giga Drain, Fire Blast, Flamethrower) it should get Lava Plume. Eruption is obviously a novelty, but I can see it being on him. Flash Cannon has no use whatsoever, but it has cannon in it, so why not. Focus Blast doesn't really do anything to any of its flying counters (however it rapes Tyranitar, so maybe not), and again fits the blasting theme. Heat Wave suits him and does nothing. Leaf Storm is a bit iffy, but I think it will do in the testing department.

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in?
Monster obviously.

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.
hm ill leave this question to others because im not sure.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Every third post of yours seem to be a flame or leads to a flame.I am just hope people in charge see this.You are smart enough post with out being a jackass.They will come a point where mods final get feed up and say you can't be a part of the cap process.Strongly support your post is one thing being an ass does not help the process.
Aki just got banned.
who banned him?
 
Aki just got banned.
who banned him?
Does it matter?

I put this in code tags to not clog up the thread. I encourage others to do the same. This is, mostly, for battling standpoint. Level-up moves can be about any move that it can get in combination with anything. Egg Moves sometimes have illegal combinations. TMs/HMs can always be obtained, and are from a select pool.

I didn't assign numbers to level-up, simply because they're so arbitrary they could be anything. I just picked twelve moves.

Code:
Level-up:

[b]Absorb
Ember
Energy Ball
Heat Wave
Hyper Beam
Leer
Pound
SolarBeam[/b]

Flash Cannon
Zap Cannon
Charge Beam

Growth
Will-o-Wisp

With the exception of the support moves, those are (in my opinion) all moves that suit his nature. The order of learning does not matter all that much, besides the obvious facts like "Hyper Beam and SolarBeam should be later than Absorb and Pound".

TMs/HMs:

TM05 - Roar
TM06 - Toxic
TM09 - Bullet Seed
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM21 - Frustrated
TM22 - SolarBeam
TM23 - Iron Tail
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM36 - Sludge Bomb
TM38 - Fire Blast
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM41 - Torment
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM46 - Thief
TM50 - Overheat

TM53 - Energy Ball
TM56 - Fling
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM60 - Drain Punch
TM61 - Will-o-Wisp
TM66 - Payback
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM77 - Psych Up
TM79 - Dark Pulse
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM86 - Grass Knot
TM90 - Substitute
TM91 - Flash Cannon
HM04 - Strength
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

I am with X-Act on Swords Dance and other attacks, pretty much. I don't see a lot of harm in this thing getting alright physical options with Swords Dance as long as it doesn't become its focus.

Egg:

Ancientpower
Aromatherapy
Leaf Storm
Leech Seed
Synthesis
Wood Hammer
Flare Blitz
Lava Plume
 
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