Point taken, edit original post to be more accurate.
[insert marijuana related joke here]
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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
I can't really see this thing learning Will-o-Wisp as a level up move. Doesn't make a difference either way, though.
I really couldn't care less if it got a recovery move, but I don't see how Synthesis (or Morning Sun/Moonlight, same difference) could be overpowering with Sandstorm and Hail in pretty much every battle. It also allows it to synergize a bit more with Sunny Day teams.
On the topic of stat-up moves, we seem to be going a bit crazy with the physical side, but ignoring the special (which is what it was voted to focus on). Howl and Growth seem like they could serve a purpose but not make this thing either impenetrable or unoutspeedable. (that's a mouthful...)
FWIW, I love the idea of this thing learning Flash Cannon and Zap Cannon, though the odds of me using them are approximately zero. (I'm pretty sure Steel is 100% redundant in the face of Fire/Grass STAB.)
On the off chance that restricting the physical movepool becomes an issue, Wood Hammer and Flare Blitz should probably become incompatible Egg Moves. Also, Curse/DD/SD (if it gets them) should probably force it to pick one or the other--no SD/FB/WH/filler. But we should wait to see if this ever becomes an issue, then build the egg moves and what egg group(s) it's in around that.
I really couldn't care less if it got a recovery move, but I don't see how Synthesis (or Morning Sun/Moonlight, same difference) could be overpowering with Sandstorm and Hail in pretty much every battle. It also allows it to synergize a bit more with Sunny Day teams.
On the topic of stat-up moves, we seem to be going a bit crazy with the physical side, but ignoring the special (which is what it was voted to focus on). Howl and Growth seem like they could serve a purpose but not make this thing either impenetrable or unoutspeedable. (that's a mouthful...)
FWIW, I love the idea of this thing learning Flash Cannon and Zap Cannon, though the odds of me using them are approximately zero. (I'm pretty sure Steel is 100% redundant in the face of Fire/Grass STAB.)
On the off chance that restricting the physical movepool becomes an issue, Wood Hammer and Flare Blitz should probably become incompatible Egg Moves. Also, Curse/DD/SD (if it gets them) should probably force it to pick one or the other--no SD/FB/WH/filler. But we should wait to see if this ever becomes an issue, then build the egg moves and what egg group(s) it's in around that.
On top of fire+grass, all you get with steel is hitting dragons for neutral.
I say nay to Stun Spore. For one, its odd from flavor standpoint, and giving this guy any reliable way of outspeeding pretty much anything is a bad call I believe. As Aldaron has stressed (multiple times), Woodman's soft counters mostly rely on their ability to outspeed him, rather than be able to totally wall or right out demolish him. Lots of those "checks" are very close battles that just favor the checker over checkee due to speed.
On this note, I retract Glare from my set.
On this note, I retract Glare from my set.
I see what you mean. There's also that question should it be able to have both Wood Hammer and Flare Blitz together in one set. Is there anything else that needs to be voted on?
Yes, Curse. If it does not get Sword Dance Curse would be a viable alternative, same with Bulk Up.
And agreeing that WH+FB needs to be voted on.
And agreeing that WH+FB needs to be voted on.
I would add Ancientpower, Rock Slide, Brick Break, and Bulk Up/Curse to that list.
Edit:
Reposting this with a few edits based on peoples opinions.
Bold Needs a vote.
Code:
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 08-[B]Bulk Up[/B]
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 28-Dig
TM 30-Shadow Ball
TM 31-[B]Brick Break: only 75 base power, lets it do something to Blissey.
It also lets it take on Heatran if you invest a lot in attack.[/B]
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave could stop flying Pokemon.
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 40-Aerial Ace
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 56-Fling
TM 57-[B]Charge Beam[/B]
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp TM 66-Payback
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 75-[B]Sword Dance hmm with a decent movepool SD could work well, maybe too well,
however with such a low base attack it may not be truly broken.[/B]
TM 76-Stealth Rock
TM 80-[B]Rock Slide[/B]
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 89-U-Turn
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon
HM 04-Strength
HM 06-Rock Smash
HM 08-Rock Climb
urm... my list was just TM/HMs, Mekkah did have DD on his list.
Edit: Mekkah Synthesis is a utility move not a Special attack.
LA we are voting on them too, your spread is not necessarily the one we are basing it off.
I don't think we are voting in this thread, but oh well here I go.
Really do you see ANY Pokemon sweeping with 70 base attack? Sure its bulky but look at its stats max with a + Nature (severely decreasing its survivability) only reaches 262 Attack I mean really is that SO threatening that we cant give it any boosts?
Its defensive enough without healing and the screens, Stun Spore would be kinda ok but it cripples the fast counters.
Zap Cannon is inaccurate and Leaf Storm is just bad compared to Grass Knot so they are both fine.
Charge Beam gives it a way to boost its halfway decent Sp. attack (317 max) without sacrificing a moveslot for Growth, its electric type is not too much of a problem.
Ancientpower..... Hmmm I just can't decide... it would be a gimmick but if activated it would make this thing near unstoppable....
Beloom Seed Bomb: 394 ATK * 80 BP = 31520
This Wood Hammer: 262 ATK * 120 BP = 31440
Same EV's and Nature and Breloom Seed Bomb beats this out by less than 1%. To be sure Focus Punch does a lot more damage, but Sky Uppercut doesn't, and unlike Breloom this doesn't have a nasty 4x weak. After a Swords Dance this soundly defeats many physical sweepers in pure power.
No Zap Cannon. Zap Cannon may be a bad Thunder but it can randomly OHKO any of this pokemon's checks, and even if it can't it can cripple them with paralysis and put them in Flamethrower KO range.
Leaf Storm is LOADS better than Grass Knot. Leaf Storm is guarenteed to be 140 BP. Grass Knot can be anywhere between 60 and 120 on most OU pokemon. Whereas Grass Knot might fail to KO things like Starmie and Miltoic, Leaf Storm can defeat them.
THe Problem is that if it uses a novelty set with Seed Bomb, Bulk Up/Curse, and Battle Armor, It's Defense is impenitrable, as Battle Armor prevents Critical Hits, which would normally make attacks bypass the Defense Boost. Swords Dance will make it broken, too. That's why I think if it does have an Attack booster, it should be Howl.
Physical movepool and boosters
Bulk Up No
Curse No
Swords Dance No
Dragon Dance No
- Brick Break No
- Rock Slide No
Wood Hammer and/or Flare Blitz And
Utility
Stun Spore No
Reflect/Light Screen No
Synthesis Maybe
Special Attacks
Zap Cannon No
Charge Beam Maybe
Ancientpower No
Leaf Storm No
Bulk Up No
Curse No
Swords Dance No
Dragon Dance No
- Brick Break No
- Rock Slide No
Wood Hammer and/or Flare Blitz And
Utility
Stun Spore No
Reflect/Light Screen No
Synthesis Maybe
Special Attacks
Zap Cannon No
Charge Beam Maybe
Ancientpower No
Leaf Storm No
I like the current moveset, 'cept the changes I made :]
Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah
Main disagreements seem to be:
Physical movepool and boosters
Bulk Up [ No ]
Bulk Up will be such a broken and monsterous thing on this Pokemon. It raises his offense which isn't that bad, but at the same time it makes this thing able to tank better than every single Curser there is. His main form of weakness if from the physical side. Aerial Ace, Brave Bird, Rock Slide and Stone Edge. He already gets the chance to hit Rock type Pokemon with STAB Wood Hammer after a Bulk Up. The boon this Pokemon has gaining defense is to much a of wager to try and live with. Maybe if it didn't have such offensive typing to hit back the Pokemon trying to go up against it, it would be alright. But the fact that it has two great STAB to onrush the opposing Pokemon with, raising it's defense would make it near unbeatable.
Curse [ No ]
See Bulk Up
Swords Dance [ No ]
Swords Dance for this Pokemon is very staggering. The bulk this Pokemon has ruins the chance for it to raise its attack +2 stages. His physical movepool may leave you in incertitude about this decision i made for banning Swords Dance, but here is my reasoning. Adding +2 stages to his mere 70 Base Attack isn't because he will rip and run through everything in it's way, it is because he will with stand the damage of everything that stands in its way. Once he Swords Dances, there will be eitherSince he is so damn bulky and defensive he will leave a big amout of damage on the phazer trying to do its job. I'm sure you're asking, why doesn't the phazer attack him directly? The phazer is thinking in its mind, this Pokemon can withstand a lot my moves probably won't even leave a dent. Lastly, most revenge killers are situational, so they have come once a Pokemon dies or the most predict perfectly and pray not to eat one of it's 120 Base Power moves.
- A Hazer
- A Roar
- A revenge killer
Dragon Dance [ Yes ]
Dragon Dance seems like a the perfect offensive option for a myriad amount of reasons. Dragon Dance's notorious legacy in the Pokemon world for being on some of the most popular Pokemon such as Dragonite, Salamence, Kingdra, Gyarados and more. Leonin wouldn't mind be added to that category. Also, the speed boost of Dragon Dance leaves the trainer in profound consideration of chosing the move. Which in conclusion, makes a physical set worth using. Lets be honest, who one earth would use Howl? While the speed boost is something to think about, it doesn't make the Pokemon overpowering, in fact it makes it less of a hassle to attack back against. A Dragon Dance set would be mostly focused on Attack and Speed ev wise, basically it would be focused on offense and not defense. I'm sure you get where i am going with this, it would leave the Pokemon vulnerable to more moves, which in turns makes it easier to defend against.
Wow! You really must love to debate, you always muster some sort of lengthy post for every thing you believe in. But, i can see you really like Dragon Dance and you're making me a believer with this post. I think Dragon Dance makes sense for every reason you named. I was leaning on voting for Swords Dance, but you brought that counters not thinking to attack directly to the light. I never was a fan of Bulk Up / Curse though, i thought that was a horrible idea.
I do think Maximus fits more than Leonin though! = P
Moveset # 1 @ Life Orb/ Leftovers
Dragon Dance
Flare Blitz
Seed Bomb
Double Edge / Iron Tail
Moveset # 2 @ Leftovers
Leech Seed
Lava Plume
Grass Knot / Chloray
U-Turn / Toxic
Moveset # 3 @ Choice Specs
Overheat / Fire Blast
Hidden Power Rock / Ground / Ice
Chloray
U-turn
Moveset # 4 @ Choice Band
U-turn
Flare Blitz
Wood Hammer
Iron Tail / Double Edge
Moveset # 5 @ Leftovers
Leech Seed
Lava Plume
Rest
Sleep Talk / Grass Knot/ Chloray
Dragon Dance
Flare Blitz
Seed Bomb
Double Edge / Iron Tail
Moveset # 2 @ Leftovers
Leech Seed
Lava Plume
Grass Knot / Chloray
U-Turn / Toxic
Moveset # 3 @ Choice Specs
Overheat / Fire Blast
Hidden Power Rock / Ground / Ice
Chloray
U-turn
Moveset # 4 @ Choice Band
U-turn
Flare Blitz
Wood Hammer
Iron Tail / Double Edge
Moveset # 5 @ Leftovers
Leech Seed
Lava Plume
Rest
Sleep Talk / Grass Knot/ Chloray
what about aromatherapy everyone
I guess it can't hurt to give some input.
I really don't want to create any new moves. This pokemon has plenty going for it, it does not need a signature move. I've seen several references to a new special grass move for this guy. I don't know if GT is seriously considering it, but I think it's a bad idea.
Grass Knot and Energy Ball are just fine. I love the risk-reward decision of choosing between those moves.
I still don't think I like Leaf Storm, but lots of grassers get it. If it comes down to it, I'd prefer to see it get Leaf Storm over a new grass move.
Grass Knot and Energy Ball are just fine. I love the risk-reward decision of choosing between those moves.
I still don't think I like Leaf Storm, but lots of grassers get it. If it comes down to it, I'd prefer to see it get Leaf Storm over a new grass move.
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