My reason for keeping it slower is so Tyranitar can counter him to an extent or at least revenge kill him. Though now I am sort of tempted to take a few HP points and stick them in Speed. In fact, 71 base is a very tempting number, as that makes it 1 point faster than Skarmory, fulfilling its anti-tank niche even better, while allowing me to take HP back to 110. Hmmm...
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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
i have't really looked into this but alot of people have suggested keeping it lower then togekiss so that a bulky set is a fairly decent counter.
Can skarmory even 3hko some of these bulkier sets.
Can skarmory even 3hko some of these bulkier sets.
At 69, this guy needs a +speed nature and max EVs to ensure it outspeeds all non-scarf, non +speed nature Togekiss by 1 point. This leaves him no other nature boosts, and only 258 EVs to put elsewhere. A +speed nature Togekiss needs only invest 168 EVs to ensure it outspeeds this Pokemon if it uses +speed nature and max EVs.
It's quite an investment just to outspeed normal Togekiss, and then you probably won't be doing too much damage to it because of that investment. All it would do is make sure you do some damage, and don't get flinch haxed.
If it switches in rather than trying to revenge kill, then you might be able to kill a bulky one before it kills you. You'd be close enough to dead at that point though.
It's quite an investment just to outspeed normal Togekiss, and then you probably won't be doing too much damage to it because of that investment. All it would do is make sure you do some damage, and don't get flinch haxed.
If it switches in rather than trying to revenge kill, then you might be able to kill a bulky one before it kills you. You'd be close enough to dead at that point though.
What I like about Aldaron's spread is that the EV spread he listed for a bulky version of this Pokemon can never run more than its minimum speed to take the Garchomp Outrages and Gengar Shadow Balls. This only means that you cannot really run speed to get past Togekiss/Skarmory/Tyranitar/etc.
Alright guys. Upon much deliberation and crunching numbers / hypothesizing various scenarios, Mekkah and I have come up with a new spread. Gothic_Togekiss, this means that Mekkah and I are both submitting this spread, meaning our separate ones should go down.
120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Now, I have discussed the reasoning behind the general theory for our spread ad nauseam...yet for the sake of the CaP Project, I shall reiterate ;)
Also, we decided to emphasize round numbers, simply because it makes calculations easy and it is staying consistent with GameFreak's general trend. Note I said general, as I know it does break this occasionally.
120 HP / 105 Def / 90 SpD allows for an extremely interesting mixed spread:
252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD, +Def Nature yields 444 HP / 308 Def / 246 SpD.
252 Atk Adamant Choice Scarf Outrage from Garchomp only has a 43.26% of 2HKOing this spread AFTER Stealth Rock (yes, 25%).
252 SpA Timid Life Orb Shadow Ball from Gengar only has a 43.26% chance of 2HKOing this spread AFTER Stealth Rock (yes, 25%).
Summary? A Stealth Rock weakness does not hinder its ability to be the best mixed wall in the OU game after Cresselia (and arguably Registeel...though that is a serious stretch).
OK, well Cresselia is a better mixed wall statistically, doesn't have a Stealth Rock issue and has Levitate (I am going to have to ignore the ability on our Pokemon, as it could go to any of about 15 different abilities).
What separates our Pokemon Cresselia in terms of mixed wall / support ability, however?
Cresselia's viable support options include Toxic, Thunder Wave, Reflect, Psycho Shift, and Moonlight.
I think it is safe to assume that our Pokemon will have access to Stun Spore (inferior Thunder Wave), at least one of Reflect / Light Screen, Leech Seed, Will-o-wisp, Toxic, and Lava Plume. The Leech Seed + Will-o-wisp itself makes me feel that our Pokemon's support options are superior to Cresselia's; at the very least, it gives this thing a separate niche, and allows, in some facet, to make up for being inferior to Cresselia statistically in terms of mixed walling.
Well that was a basic summary of the defensive prowess and reasoning behind our specific numbers for our spread. What about the offensive numbers?
I think I summarized quite nicely what the direct counters to this Pokemon are; Togekiss and Tentacruel for sure, with Aerodactyl and Crobat being slightly less reliable. There was also a list of extremely hazy "checks."
My reasoning for lowering its Speed to 60 is to ensure that Tyranitar, the best "check," remains the "best check." 4 direct counters is a bit low, especially if half of them are sketchy at best. Increasing the set of viable "checks" allows us to remain confident that our Pokemon will not be broken. That's why we have decided to remain stringent on the 60 base Speed bit.
OK, now for the attacks. 70 Atk / 95 SpA
I know I said 73 Atk, was cool, and it still is, but it isn't necessary.
I also ran some calculations for 70 base Atk, and at the minimum, 176, it's Wood Hammer / Power Whip would 2HKO 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar 97.44% of the time, and to ensure that 2HKO, all you need is 8 Atk EVs.
On max HP / 0 Def Tar, you would need 140 Atk EVs to ensure the 2HKO.
With one Swords Dance, minimum Attack (176) will always OHKO that max HP / 0 Def Tar with Stealth Rock down.
With one Howl, you would need 224 Atk EVs to always OHKO max HP / 0 Def Tar with Stealth Rock down.
For the people who want this to have the option to attack physically, with 2 120 BP moves at its disposal, 70 Atk is enough to be viable, especially with the option to add Swords Dance / Howl to its move set (I am in favor of Howl and not Swords Dance).
Now for the 95 SpA. The first thought that both Mekkah and I had was that after all that defensive, support, and surprise physical (assuming Howl / Swords Dance) potential, making its Special Attack too high would be a serious mistake. What is "too high" though? Well, obviously it is subjective, but I feel that since Gengar has the potential to OHKO this with a Sludge Bomb (Modest, 252 SpA Choice Specs Sludge Bomb from Gengar actually has a 2.56% (maximum damage) chance of OHKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm), this Pokemon's Fire Blast should never OHKO an incoming Gengar. 100 SpA, or 328 max Special Attack, actually has a chance of OHKOing a 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar, whereas 95 SpA, or 317 max Special Attack, never does.
That was, however, just a preliminary "check." I chose Gengar simply because it was the most common Pokemon with a STAB SE move against this Pokemon.
I listed Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl and Crobat as potential direct counters to this thing. Another counter, however indirectly, is Roost Whirlwind Zapdos (assuming Stealth Rock is down). Because Roost / Whirlwind Zapdos are almost always physically defensive (252 HP 232 Def / 24 SpD Bold to have a chance at not being 2HKOed by SD Lucario's LO Extremespeed), I'll assume 252 HP / 24 SpD for calculations. The above scenario was also a bit extreme..I honestly cannot imagine anyone running a +Special Attack nature on this thing. Let's just assume 252 SpA.
Worst case scenario for Zapdos is switching into Stealth Rock and getting burned by Fire Blast. At 100 base SpA, or 299 Special Attack with 252 EVs, this Pokemon does 205 maximum damage. 384 - 96 = 288, - 205 = 83, - 48 (burn) = 35, + 24 (Leftovers) = 59. Zapdos Roosts next turn, 59 + 192 = 251, - 205 (max Fire Blast again) = 46, - 48 (burn again) = Dead Zapdos :(
However, at 95 base SpA, or 289 Special Attack with 252 EVs, Zapdos will always survive that same worst case scenario.
When it comes to ensuring that this Pokemon is not broken, 95 SpA as opposed to 100 SpA just seems to work out perfectly, both for Gengar and Zapdos.
And just for those who are concerned that we might be nerfing it offensively too much...it still always 2HKOs 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune with Grass Knot, still has a chance of 2HKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Bronzong (always 2HKOs the standard one), and still pretty much always OHKOs 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory (92.31% of the time, 100% of the time with just 4 SpA EVs) with Fire Blast, all with minimum Special Attack.
95 SpA just seems to fall into our laps as the perfect Special Attack for this Pokemon, as it allows its checks and counters to remain counters and it still does its initial purposes effectively.
So there you have it, the fruits of both Mekkah's and Aldaron's labor. Our "perfect" Base stat spread.
120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Have a beautifully serene day.
120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Now, I have discussed the reasoning behind the general theory for our spread ad nauseam...yet for the sake of the CaP Project, I shall reiterate ;)
Also, we decided to emphasize round numbers, simply because it makes calculations easy and it is staying consistent with GameFreak's general trend. Note I said general, as I know it does break this occasionally.
120 HP / 105 Def / 90 SpD allows for an extremely interesting mixed spread:
252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD, +Def Nature yields 444 HP / 308 Def / 246 SpD.
252 Atk Adamant Choice Scarf Outrage from Garchomp only has a 43.26% of 2HKOing this spread AFTER Stealth Rock (yes, 25%).
252 SpA Timid Life Orb Shadow Ball from Gengar only has a 43.26% chance of 2HKOing this spread AFTER Stealth Rock (yes, 25%).
Summary? A Stealth Rock weakness does not hinder its ability to be the best mixed wall in the OU game after Cresselia (and arguably Registeel...though that is a serious stretch).
OK, well Cresselia is a better mixed wall statistically, doesn't have a Stealth Rock issue and has Levitate (I am going to have to ignore the ability on our Pokemon, as it could go to any of about 15 different abilities).
What separates our Pokemon Cresselia in terms of mixed wall / support ability, however?
Cresselia's viable support options include Toxic, Thunder Wave, Reflect, Psycho Shift, and Moonlight.
I think it is safe to assume that our Pokemon will have access to Stun Spore (inferior Thunder Wave), at least one of Reflect / Light Screen, Leech Seed, Will-o-wisp, Toxic, and Lava Plume. The Leech Seed + Will-o-wisp itself makes me feel that our Pokemon's support options are superior to Cresselia's; at the very least, it gives this thing a separate niche, and allows, in some facet, to make up for being inferior to Cresselia statistically in terms of mixed walling.
Well that was a basic summary of the defensive prowess and reasoning behind our specific numbers for our spread. What about the offensive numbers?
I think I summarized quite nicely what the direct counters to this Pokemon are; Togekiss and Tentacruel for sure, with Aerodactyl and Crobat being slightly less reliable. There was also a list of extremely hazy "checks."
My reasoning for lowering its Speed to 60 is to ensure that Tyranitar, the best "check," remains the "best check." 4 direct counters is a bit low, especially if half of them are sketchy at best. Increasing the set of viable "checks" allows us to remain confident that our Pokemon will not be broken. That's why we have decided to remain stringent on the 60 base Speed bit.
OK, now for the attacks. 70 Atk / 95 SpA
I know I said 73 Atk, was cool, and it still is, but it isn't necessary.
I also ran some calculations for 70 base Atk, and at the minimum, 176, it's Wood Hammer / Power Whip would 2HKO 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar 97.44% of the time, and to ensure that 2HKO, all you need is 8 Atk EVs.
On max HP / 0 Def Tar, you would need 140 Atk EVs to ensure the 2HKO.
With one Swords Dance, minimum Attack (176) will always OHKO that max HP / 0 Def Tar with Stealth Rock down.
With one Howl, you would need 224 Atk EVs to always OHKO max HP / 0 Def Tar with Stealth Rock down.
For the people who want this to have the option to attack physically, with 2 120 BP moves at its disposal, 70 Atk is enough to be viable, especially with the option to add Swords Dance / Howl to its move set (I am in favor of Howl and not Swords Dance).
Now for the 95 SpA. The first thought that both Mekkah and I had was that after all that defensive, support, and surprise physical (assuming Howl / Swords Dance) potential, making its Special Attack too high would be a serious mistake. What is "too high" though? Well, obviously it is subjective, but I feel that since Gengar has the potential to OHKO this with a Sludge Bomb (Modest, 252 SpA Choice Specs Sludge Bomb from Gengar actually has a 2.56% (maximum damage) chance of OHKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm), this Pokemon's Fire Blast should never OHKO an incoming Gengar. 100 SpA, or 328 max Special Attack, actually has a chance of OHKOing a 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar, whereas 95 SpA, or 317 max Special Attack, never does.
That was, however, just a preliminary "check." I chose Gengar simply because it was the most common Pokemon with a STAB SE move against this Pokemon.
I listed Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl and Crobat as potential direct counters to this thing. Another counter, however indirectly, is Roost Whirlwind Zapdos (assuming Stealth Rock is down). Because Roost / Whirlwind Zapdos are almost always physically defensive (252 HP 232 Def / 24 SpD Bold to have a chance at not being 2HKOed by SD Lucario's LO Extremespeed), I'll assume 252 HP / 24 SpD for calculations. The above scenario was also a bit extreme..I honestly cannot imagine anyone running a +Special Attack nature on this thing. Let's just assume 252 SpA.
Worst case scenario for Zapdos is switching into Stealth Rock and getting burned by Fire Blast. At 100 base SpA, or 299 Special Attack with 252 EVs, this Pokemon does 205 maximum damage. 384 - 96 = 288, - 205 = 83, - 48 (burn) = 35, + 24 (Leftovers) = 59. Zapdos Roosts next turn, 59 + 192 = 251, - 205 (max Fire Blast again) = 46, - 48 (burn again) = Dead Zapdos :(
However, at 95 base SpA, or 289 Special Attack with 252 EVs, Zapdos will always survive that same worst case scenario.
When it comes to ensuring that this Pokemon is not broken, 95 SpA as opposed to 100 SpA just seems to work out perfectly, both for Gengar and Zapdos.
And just for those who are concerned that we might be nerfing it offensively too much...it still always 2HKOs 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune with Grass Knot, still has a chance of 2HKOing 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful Bronzong (always 2HKOs the standard one), and still pretty much always OHKOs 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory (92.31% of the time, 100% of the time with just 4 SpA EVs) with Fire Blast, all with minimum Special Attack.
95 SpA just seems to fall into our laps as the perfect Special Attack for this Pokemon, as it allows its checks and counters to remain counters and it still does its initial purposes effectively.
So there you have it, the fruits of both Mekkah's and Aldaron's labor. Our "perfect" Base stat spread.
120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Have a beautifully serene day.
To elaborate on the Zapdos scenario:
(aldaron did say stuff between this, but I know chat logs are tedious to read and I'm too lazy to spell everything out, so here's the summary: Roost Zapdos focused on SpDef mangles this thing. Roost Zapdos focused on Def, like standard, still switches in with very little trouble)
[20:53:08] <aldaron> I think Zapdos with Whirlwind on a team with Stealth Rock would definitely give it issues
[20:55:14] <Mekkah> 226 Atk vs 306 Def & 384 HP (95 base power): 76 - 90 (19.79% - 23.44%) | Multipliers: 1.5
[20:55:28] <Mekkah> that's on calm max hp max spdef zapdos
[20:55:31] <Mekkah> with flamethrower
[20:55:40] <aldaron> do min special defense
[20:55:45] <aldaron> as most zapdos are physical i think
[20:56:00] <Mekkah> depends kinda, it can do both effectively
[20:56:14] <Mekkah> spdef ones help against togekiss milotic suicune etc
[20:56:27] <Mekkah> 226 Atk vs 216 Def & 384 HP (95 base power): 108 - 127 (28.13% - 33.07%) | Multipliers: 1.5
[20:56:28] <Mekkah> heh
[20:56:33] <Mekkah> without stealth rock, not a chance
[20:56:51] <Mekkah> with sandstream, 91% chance to 2hko apparently
[20:56:58] <Mekkah> with just stealth rock, 100%
[20:57:06] <Mekkah> and with sr + leftovers, 91% again
[20:57:15] <Mekkah> 30% average damage
[20:57:24] <Mekkah> wait im looking at 3hko
[20:57:31] <Mekkah> already thought it looked too sketch
[20:57:32] <Mekkah> y
[20:57:40] <Mekkah> anyway 30% average damage
[21:00:13] <Mekkah> with max spatk, no nature, still only a shot at 2hko when sr is in
[21:00:16] <Mekkah> and that's 78%
[21:00:26] <Mekkah> and that becomes 6.84% with lefties
[21:00:57] <Mekkah> 3hkos all the time though unless no sr, no sandstream and it has lefties
[21:01:06] <Mekkah> which is still 83%
[21:01:22] <Mekkah> fire blast makes it a guaranteed 3hko (lol 6pp gone)
[21:01:30] <Mekkah> but a very likely 2hko
[21:02:47] <aldaron> And a faster Zapdos can just Roost / PP Stall it out of Fire Blast
[21:03:05] <aldaron> so basically Zapdos pretty much takes care of this
[21:03:05] <aldaron> lol
[21:03:07] <Mekkah> and modest flamethrowers
[21:03:08] <Mekkah> 289 Atk vs 216 Def & 384 HP (120 base power): 172 - 204 (44.79% - 53.13%) | Multipliers: 1.5
[21:03:10] <Mekkah> zapdos has this down
(aldaron did say stuff between this, but I know chat logs are tedious to read and I'm too lazy to spell everything out, so here's the summary: Roost Zapdos focused on SpDef mangles this thing. Roost Zapdos focused on Def, like standard, still switches in with very little trouble)
[20:53:08] <aldaron> I think Zapdos with Whirlwind on a team with Stealth Rock would definitely give it issues
[20:55:14] <Mekkah> 226 Atk vs 306 Def & 384 HP (95 base power): 76 - 90 (19.79% - 23.44%) | Multipliers: 1.5
[20:55:28] <Mekkah> that's on calm max hp max spdef zapdos
[20:55:31] <Mekkah> with flamethrower
[20:55:40] <aldaron> do min special defense
[20:55:45] <aldaron> as most zapdos are physical i think
[20:56:00] <Mekkah> depends kinda, it can do both effectively
[20:56:14] <Mekkah> spdef ones help against togekiss milotic suicune etc
[20:56:27] <Mekkah> 226 Atk vs 216 Def & 384 HP (95 base power): 108 - 127 (28.13% - 33.07%) | Multipliers: 1.5
[20:56:28] <Mekkah> heh
[20:56:33] <Mekkah> without stealth rock, not a chance
[20:56:51] <Mekkah> with sandstream, 91% chance to 2hko apparently
[20:56:58] <Mekkah> with just stealth rock, 100%
[20:57:06] <Mekkah> and with sr + leftovers, 91% again
[20:57:15] <Mekkah> 30% average damage
[20:57:24] <Mekkah> wait im looking at 3hko
[20:57:31] <Mekkah> already thought it looked too sketch
[20:57:32] <Mekkah> y
[20:57:40] <Mekkah> anyway 30% average damage
[21:00:13] <Mekkah> with max spatk, no nature, still only a shot at 2hko when sr is in
[21:00:16] <Mekkah> and that's 78%
[21:00:26] <Mekkah> and that becomes 6.84% with lefties
[21:00:57] <Mekkah> 3hkos all the time though unless no sr, no sandstream and it has lefties
[21:01:06] <Mekkah> which is still 83%
[21:01:22] <Mekkah> fire blast makes it a guaranteed 3hko (lol 6pp gone)
[21:01:30] <Mekkah> but a very likely 2hko
[21:02:47] <aldaron> And a faster Zapdos can just Roost / PP Stall it out of Fire Blast
[21:03:05] <aldaron> so basically Zapdos pretty much takes care of this
[21:03:05] <aldaron> lol
[21:03:07] <Mekkah> and modest flamethrowers
[21:03:08] <Mekkah> 289 Atk vs 216 Def & 384 HP (120 base power): 172 - 204 (44.79% - 53.13%) | Multipliers: 1.5
[21:03:10] <Mekkah> zapdos has this down
I can't approve of the next spread. It really wants 73 Attack to run an effective attack set.
Can't please everyone, and if they please one person they in turn end up making someone else annoyed by the lack, or inclusion, of something else.
At this point, is anyone still actually working on spreads that are going to change in any significant way? And I don't mean a spread losing one point and putting it somewhere else or anything like that.
Can we move on to the actual voting yet?
At this point, is anyone still actually working on spreads that are going to change in any significant way? And I don't mean a spread losing one point and putting it somewhere else or anything like that.
Can we move on to the actual voting yet?
Zapdos usage should go up soon. It really is a great counter to Revenankh, and as shown here great for this guy too. Just have to have a good mix between physical and special defense. In fact, he's been on my team since earlier this week even though I haven't been on Shoddy in a week or so.
Zapdos has been an amazing Pokemon for as long as I can remember, and especially in Advanced where the advent of Calm Zapdos completely changed the structure of the metagame. Even in the regular DP metagame it shines with a combination of unique typing (allowing to beat an odd variety of Pokemon) and heavy hitting potential. It's only going to be a while until Zapdos is up there with the top dogs.
Personally, I would like more so it could be guaranteed the OHKO on TTar, but I don't think that many points could be forced there with the low SpA we're looking at.
If a Physical version isn't able to do something reliably that the normal Special version can (in this case, drop TTar, who is one of its biggest worries at this time), what would be the motivation to use it?
Shock value, unpredictability, taking down special walls that come in...
Really, this is a special attacking Pokemon. The fact it can be used as a physically attacking Pokemon means it will be worse than the special version in every case except those three I just mentioned.
Zapdos gets Roar not Whirlwind >_>
The main problem I have with that spread is that it's absolutely defensive, not balanced. By the definition of offensive/balanced/defensive it's technically balanced (since HP isn't factored in and only the higher offensive/defensive stat is considered instead of both), but one can clearly see that it's a tank with those stats. That's not really something that's fixable at this point in the polling process, but I'd still prefer to see something that's more...well, balanced.
Also, would you mind describing how effectively Tentacruel (without Sludge Bomb) can counter this? Just from looking at it's defenses I can tell that Surf from 80 sp atk is hardly going to dent this thing.
Or, rather, what can actually switch in safely and pose an immediate threat to this Pokemon? Togekiss has been mentioned, but so far I'm not seeing anything else that's actually to switch in without worry and pose a significant threat (besides maybe Sludge Bomb Tenta). Zapdos requires setup from another Pokemon and things like Aerodactyl are taking quite a bit of damage on the switch.
The main problem I have with that spread is that it's absolutely defensive, not balanced. By the definition of offensive/balanced/defensive it's technically balanced (since HP isn't factored in and only the higher offensive/defensive stat is considered instead of both), but one can clearly see that it's a tank with those stats. That's not really something that's fixable at this point in the polling process, but I'd still prefer to see something that's more...well, balanced.
Also, would you mind describing how effectively Tentacruel (without Sludge Bomb) can counter this? Just from looking at it's defenses I can tell that Surf from 80 sp atk is hardly going to dent this thing.
Or, rather, what can actually switch in safely and pose an immediate threat to this Pokemon? Togekiss has been mentioned, but so far I'm not seeing anything else that's actually to switch in without worry and pose a significant threat (besides maybe Sludge Bomb Tenta). Zapdos requires setup from another Pokemon and things like Aerodactyl are taking quite a bit of damage on the switch.
That's a ridiculous notion. Look at Salamence; it only has about 80% the total SpA as it does Attack, but how often do you honestly see Physical Salamence at this point? It's not a "surprise factor" anymore, it's the fact that Specsmence is honestly better than any Physical variant. Hell, I would be surprised if I went up against a Physical Salamence nowadays.
Point is, just because it has better SpA than Attack doesn't mean that its physical attributes should automatically be relegated to second place no matter the situation.
Technically true, but by the definition we have at the moment it's balanced. Hopefully we'll have a better definition by the next CAP.
It wouldn't do shit for damage without some sort of poison attack (be it sludge bomb or poison jab). It would counter this guy pretty well unless he's packing HP Ground.
That probably has something to do with the quality of it's movepool. Draco Meteor has that effect you know.
It's not because it's SpAtk is higher than it's special over physical. It's special over physical because it was voted that way. That means that's going to be it's main attacking build. Just because you want physical doesn't mean that's how it was voted.
As mentioned before (by that I mean like three topics back), the standard Tentacruel would be required to run Sludge Bomb to completely counter this.
It's not much of a problem as you may think, as that slot, which is usually occupied by Ice Beam or HP: Electric, is only there as a "filler" to cover what a team generally has weaknesses to. Sludge Bomb would only become a more "standard" option, so-to-speak.
It's not much of a problem as you may think, as that slot, which is usually occupied by Ice Beam or HP: Electric, is only there as a "filler" to cover what a team generally has weaknesses to. Sludge Bomb would only become a more "standard" option, so-to-speak.
Exactly. People need to be willing to adapt and change their teams. That's the entire point of CAP. It's not just to make new Pokemon that can slide in to the tiers without changing anything. It's about mixing up the game.
All that vote was for was his BST, it has no bearing on how he will turn out.
And, considering that its viable that this get two 120 BP physical STABs, I would personally say he has quite a good theoretical moveset.
Uhh Lord Gloom, the Mixed Mence and DD Mence (especially bulky DD Roost LO Mence :P) are both pretty popular right now.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that currently MixMence is more popular than SpecsMence.
Though all of that irrelevant, this thing barely loses any potential by going from 73 to 70 Atk.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that currently MixMence is more popular than SpecsMence.
Though all of that irrelevant, this thing barely loses any potential by going from 73 to 70 Atk.
The vote was a generic build vote, not just BST. Who would vote "I want high special attack stat, but I want physical to be it's superior attacking side"?
And special can also get 120BP Fire Blast, possibly 150BP Eruption, 140BP Overheat, 140BP Leaf Storm, 120BP Solar Beam, and Variable_BP Grass Knot.
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