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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
I personally think that Life Orb would be a solid choice. Assuming Rock Head as a choice of abilities (of which I am a strong proponent of), he can just drop Leech Seeds from behind those bulky defenses and his woes are gone.
My ideal set would be, running again on the assumption he has access to these (and none of which I see a severe problem with)...
Woodman @ Life Orb
Rock Head
Adamant
48 HP/252 Attack/208 Speed
- Wood Hammer
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake/Stone Edge/maybe Head Smash? Not banking on this one by any means.
- Leech Seed
I'll run some calcs to see the effectiveness of this set.
EDIT: Here are some calcs against the top 15 in weighted Shoddy use. Note that all these spreads were taken from the analysis, so by "standard" I mean "optimized".
It's pretty clearly evident that this guy would be a beast from this. Against the top 15, there is only one that can escape a 2HKO, and seven of them are in OHKO range. Ouch.
My ideal set would be, running again on the assumption he has access to these (and none of which I see a severe problem with)...
Woodman @ Life Orb
Rock Head
Adamant
48 HP/252 Attack/208 Speed
- Wood Hammer
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake/Stone Edge/maybe Head Smash? Not banking on this one by any means.
- Leech Seed
I'll run some calcs to see the effectiveness of this set.
EDIT: Here are some calcs against the top 15 in weighted Shoddy use. Note that all these spreads were taken from the analysis, so by "standard" I mean "optimized".
Code:
Garchomp
198-234 to a standard Garchomp running 358 HP from Wood Hammer, or [B]55.30 - 65.36%[/B].
Gengar
288-340 to a standard Gengar running 262 HP from a Flare Blitz, or [B]109.92 - 129.77%[/B].
Blissey
348-408 to a standard Blissey running 688 HP from a Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz, or [B]50.58 - 59.30%[/B].
Gyarados
142-168 to a bulky Gyarados running 384 HP from a Stone Edge, or [B]36.97 - 43.75%[/B].
Tyranitar
354-416 to a CBTar running 356 (!) HP from a Wood Hammer, or [B]99.43 - 116.85%[/B].
Bronzong
306-360 to a standard Bronzong running 338 HP from a Flare Blitz, or [B]90.53 - 106.50%[/B].
Lucario
510-602 to a standard Lucario running 281 HP from a Flare Blitz, or [B]181.49 - 214.23%[/B] (ouch!)
Heatran
204-240 to a standard Heatran running 336 HP from an Earthquake, or [B]60.71 - 71.42%[/B].
Infernape
282-332 to a standard Infernape running 294 HP from an Earthquake, or [B]84.93 - 112.92%[/B].
Metagross
302-356 to a CBGross running 364 HP from a Flare Blitz, or [B]82.96 - 98.62%[/B].
Salamence
170-202 to a standard Salamence running 332 HP from a Stone Edge, or [B]51.20 - 60.84%[/B].
Starmie
438-516 to a standard Starmie running 304 HP from a Wood Hammer, or [B]144.07 - 169.73%[/B].
Celebi
314-372 to a standard Celebi running 404 HP from a Flare Blitz, or [B]77.72 - 92.07%[/B].
Swampert
616-732 to a Mixpert running 401 HP from a Wood Hammer, or [B]153.61 - 182.54%[/B].
Skarmory
236-278 to a standard Skarmory running 334 HP from a Flare Blitz, or [B]70.65 - 83.23%[/B].It's pretty clearly evident that this guy would be a beast from this. Against the top 15, there is only one that can escape a 2HKO, and seven of them are in OHKO range. Ouch.
In theory, that set would need a lot of paralysis support to work correctly, and the fact that you are losing HP every time you attack on a slow Pokemon is what makes it so impractical (and we've seen why with several slow hard hitters in the DP metagame). Then again, it is bulky, but still, the set is incredibly hard to pull off because you will lose so much HP in the process. The STAB on both 120 BP moves is enough to make it powerful enough to deal steady damage, so I think that Life Orb is only limiting its capabilities.
That's the primary reason that Leech Seed is there. Since he's so bulky, there's loads of opportunities for him to come in on Pokemon that can do diddly to him, drop a Leech Seed, and clean up whatever comes in to counter him. I wouldn't have bothered with this set if it weren't pretty much guaranteed to have Leech Seed - having access to some healing, if only in small increments, is the crux of this set.
I'm voting 536-545, but I think its already won. Anyway, I still like futuresuperstar's spread the most, fishin's second most. So far not many of the spreads being discussed seem particuarly balanced, they seem much more defensive. I think people need to realize that this is a Special attacking pokemon weak to Stealth Rock. As long as he has <85 Attack you should always be able to wall him with Blissey, Cresselia, or just about any other decent Special attacker. He will most likely end up having >80 Speed, so honestly I really wouldn't worry about making him broken.
Also, Fire/Grass isn't really a particuarly good defensive typing as resistances go - it only has 3 resistances, I believe, one of which is Steel. While it is true it doesn't have many weaknesses, one of them is Rock, which automatically lowers his effectiveness by alot. Basically the point I'm trying to make is that the typing doesn't lend itself to making a particulary good defensive pokemon when it comes to countering things. In my opinion it does lend itself to a balanced-with-a-slight-emphasis-on-offense spread, I'm thinking something like Scizor I guess. The point is that the typing does give it a few very nice matchups, most notably against Celebi and pretty much all Electrics, but the fact that he will end up being neutral to most moves means, to me, that he won't really be ideal for just a defensive pokemon - he needs to have something else to seal the deal.
In my opinion, the ideal spread would be something like 90 / 80 / 110 / 115 / 76 / 65, BST 536, which is similar to a few of the other spreads posted earlier. With a spread like this, he is an offensive threat, while also being a defensive contributer to the team. He is able to very effectively counter a few threats, but a team cannot rely on him as its primary defensive hit-taker. It may seem a too good, but IMO he is kept in check by his low speed, Stealth Rock weakness, and the fact that he is walled by most Special walls. I know the defenses should probably be a bit more balanced but then its too similar to Heatran :/. I just think people need to keep in mind that as long as we don't go overboard on boosting moves, it would be pretty hard to make this pokemon broken considering, like I said, it's a Stealth Rock weak special attacker. That's why I think we should atleast make it so that it can contribute to the team in a way besides just being defensive (I'm mostly looking at the <105 Satk ones), because frankly I think as a solely defensive pokemon, there will always be better, more useful options.
OK, I'm not saying thats the spread it should have, because I really haven't spent as much time thinking about this as some of the other people making, I'm just posting to give my take on the matter.
Also, Fire/Grass isn't really a particuarly good defensive typing as resistances go - it only has 3 resistances, I believe, one of which is Steel. While it is true it doesn't have many weaknesses, one of them is Rock, which automatically lowers his effectiveness by alot. Basically the point I'm trying to make is that the typing doesn't lend itself to making a particulary good defensive pokemon when it comes to countering things. In my opinion it does lend itself to a balanced-with-a-slight-emphasis-on-offense spread, I'm thinking something like Scizor I guess. The point is that the typing does give it a few very nice matchups, most notably against Celebi and pretty much all Electrics, but the fact that he will end up being neutral to most moves means, to me, that he won't really be ideal for just a defensive pokemon - he needs to have something else to seal the deal.
In my opinion, the ideal spread would be something like 90 / 80 / 110 / 115 / 76 / 65, BST 536, which is similar to a few of the other spreads posted earlier. With a spread like this, he is an offensive threat, while also being a defensive contributer to the team. He is able to very effectively counter a few threats, but a team cannot rely on him as its primary defensive hit-taker. It may seem a too good, but IMO he is kept in check by his low speed, Stealth Rock weakness, and the fact that he is walled by most Special walls. I know the defenses should probably be a bit more balanced but then its too similar to Heatran :/. I just think people need to keep in mind that as long as we don't go overboard on boosting moves, it would be pretty hard to make this pokemon broken considering, like I said, it's a Stealth Rock weak special attacker. That's why I think we should atleast make it so that it can contribute to the team in a way besides just being defensive (I'm mostly looking at the <105 Satk ones), because frankly I think as a solely defensive pokemon, there will always be better, more useful options.
OK, I'm not saying thats the spread it should have, because I really haven't spent as much time thinking about this as some of the other people making, I'm just posting to give my take on the matter.
Has everyone fixed their stat spreads for the upcoming stat poll? Also, can everyone summary their stat spreads without looking like a autobiography lol. Personally my money is on either FSS or A-Ron's spread
Err, quick question. IIRC someone said that the requirement was a 25% difference between attack and sp atk for it to be considered special oriented. Does that 25% apply to the definition of "balanced" as well? If not, I need to change my spread slightly, since it's actually considered offensive by the current definition.
I said that and the 25% leeway only implies to the Offensive stat. It's Defensive stat are still the same, 20%
Okay, thought you was referring to it's offensive stat only. Now that you mention, it does look a bit odd to have a 30% difference value on it's defensive stat and a 25% difference value on it's Offensive stat. Does having the same value for both make any different when it comes your stat spread?
Err...the current ruling for balanced has a 20% value (for both offensive and defensive), not a 30% value. I think you're mixing it up with attack being too high compared to special attack, or defense and sp def being too far apart.
Either way, it's not too big of a deal (putting one point from sp atk into sp def fixes it), I just wanted to clarify.
Either way, it's not too big of a deal (putting one point from sp atk into sp def fixes it), I just wanted to clarify.
That's style, Build ruling for Balanced is a 30% value for offensive&defensive. I clearly read it in Time Mage and Dane's post.
Me neither. It is more of a result of throwing around points until all the requirements were fulfilled than anything. Anyway, the 25% difference confirming will allow me to cook up a new one within a few seconds.
Well, seeing as speed is "stuck" at 60, and giving it above average Special Attack will sure as hell deem it too powerful, there really is no way. What I did is try to get Special Defense as low as the arbitrary line allowed it, so that Special Attacks at least could penetrate it, while remaining a solid physical buffer. But it wasn't as researched as my previous spread.
EDIT: Alright, I reverted back to my old spread seeing as it was legal after all. It is pretty much like aldaron's, except that I managed to round every significant number to the nearest 5 for easier calculations.
My final spread: 120 / 67 / 105 / 90 / 95 / 60 - Total 537
60 Speed has been explained plenty: lower than Tyranitar, ties with Swampert.
The 67 attack is the absolute maximum you get with 90 Special Attack. I used it to round out the other stats nicely, again, so you can memorize the real stats more easily, as well as draw comparisons to other Pokemon.
120/105 Defense means business. It takes hits slightly better than Skarmory and Hippowdon (assuming type coefficients are equal) by about 2-4%. I've explained this before: this makes for a wall that can take hits excellently, but is weakened by Stealth Rock to prevent it from being broken.
With its STABs, it doesn't need more than 90 Special Attack to be useful for this task. It 2HKOs Hippowdon, Skarmory, Celebi, Jirachi and OHKOs Swampert with little investment.
Grass Knot from 216 (its minimum) Special Attack already 3HKOs a 404 HP Tyranitar with Leftovers unless you roll very close to the minimum damage three times.
With Hidden Power Ice, it already knocks off 2/3 off Salamence's health with minimum damage.
It does somewhere between 214 and 252 damage to a minimum SpDef Garchomp, and his maximum HP is 420, so needless to say he is getting 2HKOed as well unless you as unlucky to roll minimum damage twice.
95 base SpDef puts it slightly below Celebi in its overall SpDef department. For example, a max HP/min SpDef Celebi takes 2-3% more from a 264 Special Attack Ice Beam compared to max HP/min SpDef Woodman.
It seems to me that the way the lines were set up, combined with the typing and the BST, really made it impossible not to turn into a good Pokemon. No matter which distribution you pick, it will be unable to fail in either the offensive or the defensive department. The more you try to make one of them bad, the more broken the other becomes. What I've tried to do was make both sides good, so it stays usable but not too good. A good attempt at a centralizing force and a stallbreaker at its finest, while keeping your own team safe from assaults as well.
i really fucking hate the idea of this thing being able to make 101 subs. This thing can switch in to the common blissey and make an unbreakable sub. Anything that switches in gets sub seeded to death, the only things that are able to stop that are grass type who get fucked by fire blast. Your other options are a faster taunter and tentacruel.
Also whats everyones obsession with this thing not being able to counter tyranitar, you know the 4th most used pokemon. As well as the most common starter of garchomp's sand veil.
Also whats everyones obsession with this thing not being able to counter tyranitar, you know the 4th most used pokemon. As well as the most common starter of garchomp's sand veil.
Tyrannitar is going to activate Sand Veil whether this thing can counter it or not. Once Tar gets in Sandstream is there forever unless there is a whether change, so I see no problem with this not being able to counter it even though I agree with you that it should. If Woodman indeed does win out, I can see it also getting Dragon Pulse to aid in the Garchomp counter as well, and only time will tell if it can KO with it.
There's shit you can do about it buddy. To give it 99 HP (the maximum HP it can have without gaining 101 HP subs) it needs to put 20 BST elsewhere: either it becomes a good deal faster (at worst, tie with Togekiss), or it gains a bunch of Special Attack, or it becomes even harder to take down.
I really doubt Blissey would be doing a lot about this thing even if it couldn't make 101 subs anyway - we all know how long it takes her to beat Sceptile, and this thing has overall superior defenses and isn't weak to Ice Beam. I think Subseed on this thing will be really good either way, so if you want to prevent that make a case for it not learning Leech Seed.
If anything, I've done my best against it by voting slow so Blissey could possibly outspeed it. It still has a hope though, it's only 5 base behind, so it'll need 44 EVs to catch up with no speed Woodman, assuming 60 Speed.
This thing could never be a Tyranitar counter. What we're trying to do with the speed is keeping it slower than Tyranitar (61). Tyranitar is already getting 3HKOed by Grass Knot, so this is the least we can do. We'd use lower Special Attack, but not only do we have to pump the stats taken from Special Attack elsewhere, but we also have to bring more Attack points, so it would become either faster than Tyranitar, or even more sturdy.
There is already spreads going round with 99 hp or less, that havent got that much more special attack or even speed. Yes i know this waste's stat points but it's still been done.
Its obviously never gonna be a tyranitar counter, but it just seems people are trying to make it be able to do as little as possible to one of the most threatening pokemon.
Some spreads are asking for tyranitar to be able to switch in to a stabbed grass move three times.
Its obviously never gonna be a tyranitar counter, but it just seems people are trying to make it be able to do as little as possible to one of the most threatening pokemon.
Some spreads are asking for tyranitar to be able to switch in to a stabbed grass move three times.
I'm trying to find em, but...
Then there's kholdstaire:
It is mathematically impossible to make a spread that isn't good at anything thanks to the BST. I tried making it go the lower way, but to no avail.
Has overkill SpAtk, for starters, and outspeeds Tyranitar.
Then there's kholdstaire:
Again a lot of Special Attack, even more Speed.
It is mathematically impossible to make a spread that isn't good at anything thanks to the BST. I tried making it go the lower way, but to no avail.
Ok yes overkill special attack, but the first is not much faster then tyranitar and even so is that a problem. Most variations of tyranitar run a fair bit of speed, this pokemon really cannot afford to it needs all the defence/hp it can get.
Adapting the first you can easily get
HP 95
Att 70
Def 115
Spd 60
Spe Att 100
Spe Def 105
Slightly outruns tar, not really overkill on the special and its not even as bulky as the spreads both yourself and aldaron proposed.
Adapting the first you can easily get
HP 95
Att 70
Def 115
Spd 60
Spe Att 100
Spe Def 105
Slightly outruns tar, not really overkill on the special and its not even as bulky as the spreads both yourself and aldaron proposed.
Except it has a 550 BST, 5 over the maximum of 545. Also,
383 attack vs 329 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 394 max HP: 57.61% - 67.77%
383 attack vs 309 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 444 max HP: 54.05% - 63.74%
It takes only 3-4% less from a Heracross STAB, for example, compared to mine. The difference is rather small, wouldn't you say?
383 attack vs 329 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 394 max HP: 57.61% - 67.77%
383 attack vs 309 defense, 120 power(* 1.5 * 1.5), 444 max HP: 54.05% - 63.74%
It takes only 3-4% less from a Heracross STAB, for example, compared to mine. The difference is rather small, wouldn't you say?
Ok small oversight but even then you can take those 5 from the speed. Then you have a spread that doesn't outspeed tyranitar, doesn't have overkill special attack and is very bulky but still manages to have less then 100 hp.
Agreed. This is why I gave my spread base 99 HP. Can still make high subs, but not 101s.
People don't want to look at lower OU, BL, or even UU for counters. Some just want to be able to leave their teams in tact (note so many mentionings of "You rarely have a SE attack against this guy").
Doubtful. This thing needs as little versatility as possible in terms of attack types to stay balanced. As it is, it has Fire, Grass, and Hidden Power. Between the three, there will only be one group of Pokemon that can't be hit SE (depends on which HP you choose: Rock, Ground, Ice).
Did you see the calculations I did with my spread? Granted the 69 speed might not be to your liking, but if someone is willing to invest a nature and 252 EVs to outspeed some Togekiss, then they're screwing themselves elsewhere. The defenses aren't that much bulkier by moving 10 points to defense. Some in Special attack and some in attack round out the rest.
If it'll never be a Tyranitar counter, then why's it matter if it's faster or not? If Tyranitar can potentially score a OHKO with Stone Edge, and if not guarantee a 2HKO, who would switch this guy in instead of an actual counter? Besides, why should it matter if Tyranitar is bumped down a few pegs? We've been doing it to quite a few OU Pokemon so far. In fact, I hope the next CAP project can bump down Gengar a little.
In case you weren't aware of my spread, it's:
99 / 72 / 115 / 97 / 93 / 69
Total - 545
Calcs are... somewhere, I don't know what page anymore.
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