CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)

[Lord Gloom]

The vote was a generic build vote, not just BST. Who would vote "I want high special attack stat, but I want physical to be it's superior attacking side"?

And special can also get 120BP Fire Blast, possibly 150BP Eruption, 140BP Overheat, 140BP Leaf Storm, 120BP Solar Beam, and Variable_BP Grass Knot.

I fail to see how having a utilized physical side makes it better than the special side; the comparison to Specsmence was just showing that because it isn't his primary intention doesn't make it bad, or any worse for that matter.

Also, although all of those are possibilities, you have to ask yourself whether or not they're viable. Can you honestly see Eruption and Leaf Storm from this? Overheat is something I could see him using, but might be voted against for the sake of not giving him such a monstrous movepool. So of all those, the only ones that are pretty certain are Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Grass Knot, all of which were givens considering his typing.

 

[Fishin]

Fishin, semantics >_>

Fishin, that is balanced according to the definition laid down by the CaP Project.

Yeah, I know. I'd like to say that on poll 3 people were voting for a balanced Pokemon, not one with it's highest defensive stat no more than 30% higher than it's highest offensive stat, but I suppose that's somewhat of a moot point since the definition is set in stone for this round and the upcoming spread poll will determine the rest. It was more of a "I don't particularly like this" comment than a "hey, that's against the rules!" comment.

Exactly. People need to be willing to adapt and change their teams. That's the entire point of CAP. It's not just to make new Pokemon that can slide in to the tiers without changing anything. It's about mixing up the game.

True, I have a habit of not taking the fact that CAP is a completely different metagame into account. I'm still curious to know what really counters this, though. So far we've got Togekiss and Sludge Bomb Tentacruel that can 100% counter it. I'm worried about some of the others, though - can Aerodactyl or Crobat even OHKO this? If not, both of them are likely to be taking significant damage.

 

[Aldaron]

Your last point, Fishin, is precisely why I wish to make its speed lower than Tyranitar's, because while there are few "true to the definition of counter" counters, there are certainly a few viable "checks," Tyranitar being the most viable amongst them all.

 

[Dane]

I fail to see how having a utilized physical side makes it better than the special side; the comparison to Specsmence was just showing that because it isn't his primary intention doesn't make it bad, or any worse for that matter.

This isn't what you were arguing earlier. You wanted physical to outshine special in a way other than the three I mentioned (which were surprise, counter killing, and unpredictability). Now you're saying you just want it usable? Of course it can be "usable", but it shouldn't outshine it outside of those three ways.

Also, although all of those are possibilities, you have to ask yourself whether or not they're viable. Can you honestly see Eruption and Leaf Storm from this? Overheat is something I could see him using, but might be voted against for the sake of not giving him such a monstrous movepool. So of all those, the only ones that are pretty certain are Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Grass Knot, all of which were givens considering his typing.

It depends on the art. You can say the same for Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer too. It depends on the art, and as such arguing it now is relatively useless.

True, I have a habit of not taking the fact that CAP is a completely different metagame into account. I'm still curious to know what really counters this, though. So far we've got Togekiss and Sludge Bomb Tentacruel that can 100% counter it. I'm worried about some of the others, though - can Aerodactyl or Crobat even OHKO this? If not, both of them are likely to be taking significant damage.

Depends on what they switch in against. If you can predict and come in on a resistance, Aerodactyl should be able to 2HKO it, maybe OHKO with a Choice Banded Stone Edge. Crobat I'm not sure, he might have to Kamekaze in order to kill it just because of his movepool.

But you also have (and I'm getting tired of repeating this, not just to you but in general):
All Fire Pokemon resist both STABs and can strike back at least Neutrally
Most Thick Fat Pokemon: Snorlax, Miltank, Hariyama, Purugly, Grumpig
Dragons other than Garchomp.

This isn't even looking at stats, just types and abilities.

 

[Lord Gloom]

This isn't what you were arguing earlier. You wanted physical to outshine special in a way other than the three I mentioned (which were surprise, counter killing, and unpredictability). Now you're saying you just want it usable? Of course it can be "usable", but it shouldn't outshine it outside of those three ways.


It depends on the art. You can say the same for Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer too. It depends on the art, and as such arguing it now is relatively useless.

How is being able to do something better than its special side, besides being unexpected, a bad thing? I can't comprehend why you're so adamant on this issue that it absolutely must not be anywhere as good as the special side.

Also, let's be realistic here; it's pretty much certain that Woodman will win. I don't think I'm being hasty in assuming that he will and that we can begin basing out movesets off of that.

 

[Dane]

How is being able to do something better than its special side, besides being unexpected, a bad thing? I can't comprehend why you're so adamant on this issue that it absolutely must not be anywhere as good as the special side.

What other way would it be able to outshine special without making special obsolete. Answer that.

I don't think I'm being hasty in assuming that he will and that we can begin basing out movesets off of that.

Well, considering we still need to vote on base stat spread and ability, I'd say yes you're being a little hasty, but I could make an argument for every one of those moves on Woodman (both physical and special ones).

 

[Lord Gloom]

What other way would it be able to outshine special without making special obsolete. Answer that.


Well, considering we still need to vote on base stat spread and ability, I'd say yes you're being a little hasty, but I could make an argument for every one of those moves on Woodman (both physical and special ones).

Being able to reliably fight Tyranitar and be a moderate physical threat that can reduce LO damage is the main draw of my "set", two of which the special side can already do to an extent. That doesn't obsolete anything at all about the special side because since he loses so many EVs to speed so he can reliably take Tyranitar down, he has to miss out on some of his potential bulkiness. It's all a trade off so he can do things that the main set can't.

I can't really see anyone arguing for Leaf Storm (only two Pokemon that aren't main Grass get it) and Eruption (six Pokemon get it, and all have some relation to volcanoes).

 

[Dane]

Being able to reliably fight Tyranitar

So shock value (as Tyranitar expects special, hence why it comes in with it's 1.5x special defense) and counter killing.

and be a moderate physical threat that can reduce LO damage is the main draw of my "set", two of which the special side can already do to an extent.

How does it reduce Life Orb damage? If anything, it would just be adding to that damage unless it ends up with Rock Head (which I personally am rooting for).

That doesn't obsolete anything at all about the special side because since he loses so many EVs to speed so he can reliably take Tyranitar down, he has to miss out on some of his potential bulkiness. It's all a trade off so he can do things that the main set can't.

Why can't the special side also sac defenses for speed and special attack? If it can get to the point that it can 2HKO Tyranitar (or 3HKO if Tyranitar has to 2HKO it), it still wins that way.

I can't really see anyone arguing for Leaf Storm (only two Pokemon that aren't main Grass get it)

He has canons on his arms. They could just as easily shoot out a haelstrom of leaves. If Meganium, Celebi, and Roserade can get it, why can't this guy?

and Eruption (six Pokemon get it, and all have some relation to volcanoes).

Typhlosion is related to volcanoes?

 

[Lord Gloom]

So shock value (as Tyranitar expects special, hence why it comes in with it's 1.5x special defense) and counter killing.


How does it reduce Life Orb damage? If anything, it would just be adding to that damage unless it ends up with Rock Head (which I personally am rooting for).


Why can't the special side also sac defenses for speed and special attack? If it can get to the point that it can 2HKO Tyranitar (or 3HKO if Tyranitar has to 2HKO it), it still wins that way.


He has canons on his arms. They could just as easily shoot out a haelstrom of leaves. If Meganium, Celebi, and Roserade can get it, why can't this guy?


Typhlosion is related to volcanoes?

You do realize that the physical set could come in on Tyranitar if it predicted something besides Stone Edge (or it was CBed into something else)? It's not just a surprise factor, it is viable enough to turn the tables completely on Tyranitar and soft counter him.

It can Leech Seed on things it can come in safely on, which with the bulkiness, is a decent amount.

I never said it couldn't; in fact, I implied that it could. But I still can't think as to why so much would be put into speed just so it could take down something that it has to properly predict coming in to even stand a chance as it is. The fact is, even though it can take down Tyranitar with the proper investments, it isn't reliable enough to be counted on. It can't be sent in on Tyranitar, and only wins if it predicts it coming in and drops a Grass Knot.

Because they're all essentially flowers (or in the case of Celebi, some sort of vegetable)? The only thing remotely leafy on Woodman is his tail and a grass skirt.

Cyndaquil (cinder), Quilava (lava), and Typhlosion (explosion) all do indeed relate to volcanoes.

 

[Dane]

You do realize that the physical set could come in on Tyranitar if it predicted something besides Stone Edge (or it was CBed into something else)? It's not just a surprise factor, it is viable enough to turn the tables completely on Tyranitar and soft counter him.

Unless the physical set is able to OHKO Tyranitar, then all that can be said for the special set too. If Tyranitar is locked into a non Stone Edge CB move, the special version can come in just as easily as the physical one.

It can Leech Seed on things it can come in safely on, which with the bulkiness, is a decent amount.

Special set can as well.

I never said it couldn't; in fact, I implied that it could. But I still can't think as to why so much would be put into speed just so it could take down something that it has to properly predict coming in to even stand a chance as it is. The fact is, even though it can take down Tyranitar with the proper investments, it isn't reliable enough to be counted on. It can't be sent in on Tyranitar, and only wins if it predicts it coming in and drops a Grass Knot.

Same said for physical version unless it can randomly OHKO it.

Because they're all essentially flowers (or in the case of Celebi, some sort of vegetable)? The only thing remotely leafy on Woodman is his tail and a grass skirt.

Flowers have pedals, not leaves. This guy could just as easily shoot leaves or pedals out of his canon, or spin around really really fast for Leaf Storm.

Cyndaquil (cinder), Quilava (lava), and Typhlosion (explosion) all do indeed relate to volcanoes.

Then that applies to most fire Pokemon.
Moltres = Molten
Charmander line = Char(red)
Magmar line = Magma
Magcargo = Magma
Blaziken = Blaze
Chimchar = Char
Monferno = Inferno
Infernape = Inferno

The only one in the Typhlosion line that is even close to volcanoes is Quilava, but that also implies Magmar's line and Magcargo should get it.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Unless the physical set is able to OHKO Tyranitar, then all that can be said for the special set too. If Tyranitar is locked into a non Stone Edge CB move, the special version can come in just as easily as the physical one.


Special set can as well.


Same said for physical version unless it can randomly OHKO it.


Flowers have pedals, not leaves. This guy could just as easily shoot leaves or pedals out of his canon, or spin around really really fast for Leaf Storm.


Then that applies to most fire Pokemon.
Moltres = Molten
Charmander line = Char(red)
Magmar line = Magma
Magcargo = Magma
Blaziken = Blaze
Chimchar = Char
Monferno = Inferno
Infernape = Inferno

The only one in the Typhlosion line that is even close to volcanoes is Quilava, but that also implies Magmar's line and Magcargo should get it.

Wood Hammer off of my set does 99%~ minimum. So yes, the physical set can very much so OHKO TTar.

Again, I never said the Special sets couldn't.

It can most definitely OHKO TTar. I wouldn't be a proponent of it if it couldn't.

Semantics here. Regardless, flowers do have leaves on their stems. Also, from a flavor standpoint, where do you imagine the leaves would come from? Woodman has just a few scraps of foliage on his entire body, and the only one which seems alive at all is the leaf on his tail, which is likely removed from the heat surrounding the rest of his body.

The whole point is that all the Pokemon who do get Eruption have a unifying factor in that they're somehow related to volcanoes. You could argue that more Pokemon should have it because they're also related to volcanoes, but the fact of the matter is that Woodman isn't, therefore he can't be in the group that can possibly have it in the first place.

Also, to be fair: using Aldaron's second to last spread (118 HP/73 Attack/106 Defense/97 Special Attack/91 Special Defense/60 Speed), which is the one I prefer, here are a couple of calcs from a CBTar versus an Adamant Woodman running 48 HP/252 Attack/208 Speed (389 HP total).

Earthquake: 175-206; 44.69 - 52.95%, Woodman can win even if he doesn't OHKO Tyranitar.
Crunch: 210-247; 53.98 - 63.49%, Woodman needs the OHKO (one of the reasons I want slightly higher than 73 Attack so he is guaranteed the OHKO).
Pursuit: 105-124; 26.99 - 31.87%, Woodman laughs at this even though he isn't packing very much bulk.
Ice Beam: 96-113; 24.67 - 29.04%, Woodman laughs at this too.

 

[Dane]

Well, if there's a chance at a OHKO than it's understandable. But the difference between 70 and 73 attack isn't that much. If you want close, vote for my spread, it has 72 attack.

As for the leaves, they could easily just be shot out of his canon. Wood implies trees. Trees have leaves. That's as much as those others have in terms of explaination. Either way, this doesn't really need to be discussed for another 2+ threads.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Here are the damage rolls for 75, 73, 72, and 70 base.

75: (356, 362, 366, 372, 374, 378, 384, 386, 392, 396, 398, 404, 408, 414, 416, 422)

73: (354, 356, 360, 366, 368, 374, 378, 380, 386, 390, 396, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416)

72: (354, 356, 360, 366, 368, 374, 378, 380, 386, 390, 396, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416)

70: (344, 348, 354, 356, 362, 366, 368, 374, 378, 380, 386, 390, 392, 398, 402, 408)

73 and 72 are identical here. 75 guarantees a OHKO. However, 70 is three times as likely to not OHKO (18.75% of the time) as 72/73 (6.25%). It may not seem like anything important when you look at the surface, but there is a big difference between those two points in this situation.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Just out of curiousity, how would my spread compare to the top 20 (the top 20 being the 20 most used Pokemon on Shoddy)?

Here's my spread: 110HP/73ATK/99DEF/104SAT/99SDF/60SPD

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Alright guys. Upon much deliberation and crunching numbers / hypothesizing various scenarios, Mekkah and I have come up with a new spread. Gothic_Togekiss, this means that Mekkah and I are both submitting this spread, meaning our separate ones should go down.

120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe

Wasn't expecting a collaboration between two stat spread makers but I have no problem with that.

BTW, Has anyone thought of the leading pokemon design using Head Smash, Blast Burn, Rock Wrecker, any beam/cannon relating moves?

 

[chronostrike]

Eruption is a terrible attack. We expect this thing to come in on SR, not to mention it's far too slow. Eruption will never achieve that 150 BP except under heavy healing support.

 

[Mekkah]

BTW, Has anyone thought of the leading pokemon design using Head Smash, Blast Burn, Rock Wrecker, any beam/cannon relating moves?

About as much as I thought about it having Mega Punch or Giga Impact - it suits him, but it's not going to be used. Head Smash may be an exception, but I think exclusive stuff should remain exclusive. Air Lock on Revenankh was bad enough, especially now that nobody uses it.

The main problem I have with that spread is that it's absolutely defensive, not balanced. By the definition of offensive/balanced/defensive it's technically balanced (since HP isn't factored in and only the higher offensive/defensive stat is considered instead of both), but one can clearly see that it's a tank with those stats. That's not really something that's fixable at this point in the polling process, but I'd still prefer to see something that's more...well, balanced.

Well, as I outlined before, this is what the current restrictions as well as the BST force it to be pretty much. If it isn't what was the idea, then perhaps the way too arbitrary lines should be fixed.

If a Physical version isn't able to do something reliably that the normal Special version can (in this case, drop TTar, who is one of its biggest worries at this time), what would be the motivation to use it?

No matter how you look at it, 70 or 73 Attack pales in comparison to 95 Special Attack. There is indeed little reason to use it. Grass Knot already 3HKOs Tyranitar pretty much all the time. The people voted for a Pokemon focused on Special Attacking, so the Attacking variant will indeed be vastly inferior.

 

[Helios]

Well, think about Crobat and the multitude (possibly?) who use his mediocre 70 attack as opposed to his better attack stat of 90. Granted it's mainly because of NP... But I really don't want this thing to get swords dance (although it'd probably make sense, since the Wood Man looks sort of tribal... Snorlax didn't get Slack off, so screw it).
EDIT: BTW, 70 base atk + Life orb + max attack + neutral nature + Stab + Wood hammer has a chance of 1HKO on non-boah t-tar. It has a chance to 1HKO on boah if stealth rocks is in play. EQ does the same to tentacruel, replacing Boah with support spread (204 hp). CB stone edge (max atk with + nature) can 1HKO 252/6 togekiss when coupled with SR (very rarely).

 

[Luck]

Ok where is this rock fetish stuff come from,I have seen people mention Rock head,Rock Wrecker,Head Smash.Can somebody fill me in on thinking because i am missing it.

 

[Helios]

Look at the winning idea for what this pokemon's going to look like; it's a lizard/dinosaur thing. It's head (and most of it's body) is armoured with wood. That's why they want rock head and head smash. I have no idea why they want to give it Rhyperior's signature move.

 

[latinoheat]

This should get iron head and headbutt thats it, its already becoming insanely good. It shouldn't even be getting fucking lava plume but probably will.

 

[Helios]

Well, if Aldaron's/Mekah's spread goes through, it'll probably prefer Fire Blast (or overheat on choice specs or somethin), since it'll need the extra 40-60 power over the extra burn chance. Personally, I think it SHOULDN'T get Iron head, since only four pokemon who learn Iron head that aren't steel type. Besides, it's not actually going to be using iron head on anything, is it? Grass hits most rock types.

 

[chronostrike]

I don't see any problem with giving it iron head. It's only 80 BP, it's not going to flinch anything except with paralysis support, and steel adds precisely zero type coverage to fire/grass. It just has a different set of what can switch in on it.

Head Smash, on the other hand, is on a total of two pokemon, and while Relicanth also has rock head, Relicanth doesn't have the SDef of this pokemon, nor the healing potential. I also don't like the idea of giving it such an absolute way to destroy Togekiss.

(Side note: the CAP project has made Togekiss and Staraptor some of the best choices in the metagame.)

 

[Lord Gloom]

No matter how you look at it, 70 or 73 Attack pales in comparison to 95 Special Attack. There is indeed little reason to use it. Grass Knot already 3HKOs Tyranitar pretty much all the time. The people voted for a Pokemon focused on Special Attacking, so the Attacking variant will indeed be vastly inferior.

3HKO? Yeah, this won't stand against Tyranitar at all. Stone Edge from a CBTar destroys it.

The fact of the matter is that this thing can attain decent attack since it's more defensive than offensive. It's not completely overshadowed, considering it might possibly get two STAB 120 BP attacks with no draw backs. Why not just add the two points to its attack to let it do what it can already do more reliably?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I have no idea why they want to give it Rhyperior's signature move.

How is Rock Wrecker performed? After figuring that out, you should figure it out why someone would suggest the move lol