CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 5 (Build)

[gsumbreon]

Offense: Mixed, but more emphasis on Physical. If it has Fire/Grass, it's begging for a Sunnybeamer set. It should be able to use one, but it being physical would be much more interesting, and allow for a bit more creativity.

Defense: Mixed
Speed: Slow. If we use the panda idea that's been thrown around, it shouldn't be fast. However, Chloraphyll should allow it to barely outrun Pokemon in the base 95 range with a neutral nature and 252 in speed.

 

[General Tso]

Offense: Physical
Defense: Mixed
Speed: Medium

 

[Magmortified]

Probably not going to matter at this stage in the game, but darnit, I want a physical Fire type!

Offense: Physical
Defense: Physical (Ain't got enough of these)
Speed: Don't care, really.

 

[Azacin]

if we're talking about abilities, I want to mention Solar Power. It gives a 50% boost to SAtk in sunlight, at the cost of 1/8 HP per turn.

If we did something like that, we could use it as a special attacker pretty well, though it would suicide from all the damage after a while. However, with that big boost in SAtk, you wouldn't need a massive SAtk basestat to let it clean things up, at least after you get rid of special walls. That way, you could also have a big attack stat, letting you use it as a physical attacker outside of Sunny Day. That would make it pretty unpredictable, which is cool, but also limits it a lot so that you can counter it.

To make sure it isn't broken, we'd have to sacrifice some stats somewhere. Speed would have to be high for it to be usable, but you can nerf one of its defenses, and make it bulky on the other side.

I dunno, I'm kinda thinking as I type, what do ya'll think of that?

I'm thinking it sounds a LOT like Sceptile + Infernape again. (Suicide Pokemon?)

 

[Helios]

Damn, there was a game of 'gang up on Aldaron' whilst I was asleep.

Do we actually need lots of effiency in stats? Consider Blissey; undisputed champion of special walling. She takes physical hits pretty well due to her insane base hp (there are two pokemon in OU that have over 1/2 her base hp), even though her base defense is 10. Many people hate her because she's almost monopolized her role (or, cus, y'know, they just hate her). Note that her base stat total is 540, if we averaged this out, it'd be 90 per stat (Which would suck in anything besides UU). Because her stats are so 'efficient', she can not only absorb anything less than PorygonZ's hyper beam with minimal effects, but be able to take random earthquakes (dugtrio's can't 2HKO with life orb, max atk and positive nature).

Now for the real question, do we really want to make another blissey type pokemon? (I know she's an extreme case of min-maxing, but I'm trying to make a point). Heck, here's an 'efficient' build for you (It can't sub-seed for it's life, though).
HP/Atk/
222/1/33/108/130/33
BST- 530
After Chlorophyll, 108 with no speed investment outspeeds CS Garchomp, I believe.
Or hell
2/1/1/200/310/1
BST- 515
With vacuum wave
(Just trying to prove a point)

 

[Bull of Heaven]

Offense: Special
Defense: Physical
Speed: Medium

 

[Rhykune]

This pokemon is going to be outclassed by Heatran if we are not careful like Aldaron said... With that in mind, I put together a spread of my own. Assuming Special, Mixed and Medium. (The ones currently leading.)

First off is HP. I would like a fairly low HP for better subseeding, but not too low that it dies to Seismic Toss in two or three hits. Not that it would matter, because all this special attacker can do to Blissey is subseed. I'd say that 60 is a pretty good number...

Attack is next. I will figure it out later when I know how many stat points I have to spare.

Defense: As these are balanced defenses, and I want it running with low HP, the defenses are going to need to be fairly high, but not so high as it walls better than Dusknoir. 115 seems like a fair enough number as it is enough that it can take hits but not anywhere near a ton of stuff. Also, my spread is going to be primarily defensive, as I feel this could make a great Tank typing. So 115 it is.

Special Defense: See Defense... Right now it is 115, but I may change it so that it is biased in one way or another.

So just for a recap so far: We have figured out all of the defensive stats so far with 60/115/115 defenses. This leaves us at a 290 total so far. If we are aiming for a spread somewhere in the early-mid 500's. (Since we don't know yet) We have about 250 EV's left to spare between Attack, Special Attack and Speed.

Special Attack: Since this is the main attacking stat, is has to be relatively high, but since I gave it such good defenses, it can't be too good. 100 may seem like a fairly arbitrary number, but it is decent enough to do damage without being too too insane. I may jack it up a bit though.

Speed: I don't have much here to work with, only 60-85, but I'd say it deserves the big end of the stick here with 85, as what I am aiming for is the perfect subseeder. I wish that I had fast to work with, but I don't, so I'll take what I can.

So all that's left is the relatively useless attack, but this may have a chance of have a somewhat usable wall breaking set. I am at 60/?/115/100/115/85 so far which adds up to 475. 65 sounds fair enough, as it has possibility for damage but it far inferior to the Special attack.

That leaves us with 60/65/115/100/115/85 and a BST of 540.
The order is HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed.
Seems different enough to Heatran to me, still a little worse though.

I got no comments before... I wish I had more time to be active in this though.

 

[latinoheat]

OK ive just been looking through this and people have been mentioning earth power as a potential move.

If this gets clorophyll its really not wise because then guess what couters this set earth power,fire blast,sunny day,grass knot@life orb.

The only thing i can think of is a bulky salamence and maybe togekiss.

I like the idea of something that is countered based on the hidden power alone hp ice(heatran,tentacruel),hp electric(heatran,salamence),hp ground(salamence)

Playing round with stats i would like to see it get abit more attack then is being proposed.

80 base attack is still very usuable in sun.

Max attack(+attack) with a life orb, 2hkos any blisseys thinking they can wall your special sweep. Seed Bomb i believe comes very close to 2hko gyarados.

Even a mixed set would be good.

Also what are people's opinion's on taunt, its a great support move in general. Its also better then leech seed will ever be for shutting blissey down.

I am proposing the following stat spread 80/80/90/116/105/67= 538 any comments

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

^ And there goes #9 on my list of ten people I will ask for stat spread later one.

@ Earth power talk ~ Not sure it's wise for it to get it, but I can vaguely image it doing it in some goofy way.

 

[Aldaron]

Helios, it is precisely those types of "points" that will destroy any credibility this project might wish to obtain. Those ridiculous spreads don't consider the fact that we have to keep the spreads with in reason while trying to maximize efficiency. Though if you ask me, I'm already personally put off by the project just because of how unnecessarily insulting three prominent members, Dane, Time Mage and eric the espeon have been. I'm hoping the others aren't as quick to judgment. Because whether or not I was correct with asking for the lack of spreading of false information is irrelevant; it doesn't at all mean that I should have been called "an ass," "uncivilized," "aggressive," "a liar," "arrogant," and "disrespectful."

But regardless, I'm supporting a physical offense because only one Fire type uses it effectively in OU. I would prefer a physical defense because it would be switching into predominantly physically attacking threats.

I'd prefer lower Speed so we could focus on other stats. I'd also prefer higher HP so we could not focus so much on the defenses and focus more on the attacking stats.

But hey, who listens to objective reasoning here anyway?

Let's all go with Time Mage's arbitrary spread!!! Yeaaa!!!

 

[latinoheat]

I really like the idea of it being able to do alot physically, but i think the poll results are gonna suggest something different.
Unless someone wants to justify 130 special attack, the best it really can go is like 85-87 based on the criteria set.

Also isn't the art thread meant to be open , Elagune has some really nice ideas already.

 

[Stall]

Yeah, Aldaron is making very solid points. If three certain prominent members * don't start to act in a somewhat mature fashion, this project will lose all credit.



*For the record, there is one prominent member who's role I think should be severely diminished.

 

[Aldaron]

Yea, I'm pretty much already expecting Special Attack to win, lol.

They can also have their high Special Attack if they drop HP to the 50 range and have defenses in the 110 range, lol. I mean, that'll give a super Bulky Pokemon like Spiritomb!!

Then they could even have high Speed! Hell, because it is proven that lower HP definitely assists SubSeeding and higher HP doesn't help anything else out anyway, we can just lower HP for anything we need!

Don't you love the idea of building a spread based on the strategy of SubSeeding that is done by no other Pokemon?


Seriously though, I'm looking at what else this Pokemon can do. Grass gives it a plethora of general support options, like Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, probably Reflect and Light Screen too. That's why having it bulkier than (lol) Spiritomb is probably a good idea. But hey...having few useful resistances and low defensive capability isn't necessarily a bad thing if we have decent Speed and Special Attack for sweeping!

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Latinoheat, I had already planned on asking Aldaron for a stat spread too since this man has been a burning forced in this project. I might post up the list of people I want to ask and see if they actually want to.

 

[Aldaron]

Yea, I like some of Elagune's ideas as well, Latinoheat.

There were a few other people ignored in the last three topics that had interesting ideas well, I think I am going to go through them and just list them in the next post.

 

[latinoheat]

This thing has to be bulkier then spritomb, if people want it to be able to support. Its got a stealth rock weakness, no immunities and its resistances(grass,steel,electric) ae not that common. If the only thing it can take are fucking roserade's leaf storm we may as well give up the bulky target now.

 

[Dane]

Don't you love the idea of building a spread based on the strategy of SubSeeding that is done by no other Pokemon?

You really need to get off this entire argument. It's going nowhere at this point. I've already apologized in part, and even said that having now seen the defense value process you used I can see it's merit. Quantifying things rather than just making blanket facts has that effect.

Seriously though, I'm looking at what else this Pokemon can do. Grass gives it a plethora of general support options, like Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, probably Reflect and Light Screen too. That's why having it bulkier than (lol) Spiritomb is probably a good idea.

Ignoring the end because it's pointless jabbing, but I was thinking about the support pool and I'm not sure if giving it sleep powder is the best idea. Especially if it has all these other options, bulkyness, etc. Perhaps something not reliable like Grass Whistle, so you can use it if you want but wouldn't normally make the cut. Especially if it has access to Stun Spore and WoW.

 

[Magmortified]

I don't personally like Sleep Powder, either. Because, dangit, let's give Breloom some breathing-room.

Really would like to see something above the cookie-cutter Subseeder/Supporting Grass type. There really isn't too much (if anything) that makes Subseeding a focus, but what if we were to force evolution's hand? Let's make something more viable, if anything else, let's make it a unique Subseeder. =D

 

[darkie]

Just posting to say that I have BS spreads forming in my mind, and also that I have an amazing idea for the art (Chili Pepper/Leaf/Duck heheh).

 

[Aldaron]

Lol Dane, I'm just poking fun now. Anyway, all this emotion is good. It just means we're going to get real gritty with this project, which should yield some fantastic results.

I can live without Sleep Powder though. I don't think it needs it. Having a viable spiker would be awesome, beyond Skarmory and Forretress, anyway. Truth be told, with Will-o-wisp, I'm kind of hoping we don't make its special defense too high, if you know what I mean. That's another reason I've been supporting physical defense. Making a good physical defender better at that is less than making a weak physical defender not as weak anymore.

 

[Helios]

latinoheat- Well, so does Tyranitar in some respects (since I'm thinking, because it's going to be a balanced pokemon, that it's special attack isn't going to be sky high).

Aldaron- I was just trying to prove a point on the stats, those weren't legitimate spreads. I personally would like to see something with at least SOME physical attack, but it seems the crowd's gone with pure special. The thing is, because everyone's gone with special, people probably aren't going to care about the attack stat (it's probably going to reach a maximum of something like 85). Therefore, to avoid having a stat build like; 115/35/65/95/145/70, stats can be sunk into the defenses, as opposed to HP. Sorry if I've misinterpretted what you said.

May I ask why everyone's getting so angry(?) over the HP stat? If we give it high HP with medium defenses, it's tanky. If we give it low HP with high defenses, it's a bit less tank but subseeds more effectively. Sub-seed is very common for grass pokemon. I really don't think we need someone even MORE effective to do it, the less hp with give it, the more specialized it becomes. If we give it too much hp, we end up with pumping it's other stats to much (instead of pumping it's defenses).

 

[Karrot]

=\

Why can't you people just forget the whole idea of "subseeding." Let's talk about Leech Seed itself, and not this silly "subseeding" thing I keep hearing. Leech Seed on its own is generally superior to "subseeding," anyways, especially on a bulky Pokemon.

That said, it is already a unique user of Leech Seed (to answer Magmortified) in that it actually deters Grass type switch-ins with a fire typing rather than promote it.

 

[Aldaron]

A little late, aren't we Helios? The conversation is done, lol. It evidently ended with "who says we are trying to maximize efficiency" by eric and Time Mage, and I really have nothing to say to that lol.

I'd actually prefer if we didn't consider SubSeeding at all, Magmortified, but that's just me. But above the cookie cutter grass option? I dunno, I'm viewing this as a Fire type with Grass supplements, not a Grass with Fire supplements, so cool support options doesn't really seem too mundane to me.

But you want some thing unique? I already outlined what would be a unique spread waaaayyy in the beginning of this topic, but that is just a unique spread, not a movepool or anything.

What are some "Cool" moves? I think Taunt is a pretty cool move. To alleviate any "mundane" connotations this Pokemon might have, I think we should start thinking of some cool strategies. Any ideas?

EDIT: O btw, whoever mentioned that our Pokemon shouldn't have stat buffs is very intelligent. I've been thinking about what could possibly phaze a Fire / Grass, and the Skarmory / Suicune / Hippowdon / Donphan / Swampert obvious choices are all removed lol. Basically, Zapdos, Hariyama, Snorlax, and Drapion are left for effectively phazing, and I know Hariyama and Snorlax don't like getting Leech Seeded. Yea, let's try and avoid Swords Dance, Tail Glow / Nasty Plot, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Curse etc. here.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Also isn't the art thread meant to be open , Elagune has some really nice ideas already.

Patients my friend. The art thread will be open shortly. It's not like chaos is going to delete this area soon.

Ignoring the end because it's pointless jabbing, but I was thinking about the support pool and I'm not sure if giving it sleep powder is the best idea. Especially if it has all these other options, bulkyness, etc. Perhaps something not reliable like Grass Whistle, so you can use it if you want but wouldn't normally make the cut. Especially if it has access to Stun Spore and WoW.

I think Stun Spore and Wow are good enough without the two powders/Spore. Taunt and maybe the Screens are okay on it too.

 

[latinoheat]

sub seed will get you walled and is set up fodder for salamence and ddgyarados anyway. Should be an option but likes it 4th best option.

Dependant on the art i wouldn't mind it getting toxic spikes/spikes but that might be abit too much. Also do we really want something thats good at alot of things but not great at anything.

Sleep powder is probably too much plus tangrowth really doesn't want replacing.