CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 5 (Build)

[latinoheat]

what does fire really have on the physical side, or even grass for that matter. Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer are suicidal when you factor in sandstorm and this things stealth rock weakness. Fire Fang and Seed bomb just don't cut it.

Alot of the options are down to the art.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I like to say that I started counting the votes so far and I'll tell you, it's a mother-bitch after a while. As far I can tell, Special/Mixed/Medium is winning so far.

^ Fire Punch, Blaze Kick, Leaf Blade, Power Whip, a chance for a signature fire move lol

 

[Urza]

a suicide set wouldn't be that awful latino-heat. if we make it hard hitting from the physical end, it'd be an amazing thing. blaze kick and leaf blade are actually my new choice physical moves. just strong enough, and if you really want more, then you go for the suicide moves.

i donno, i just think that everyone is selling the physical side short. aldaron made a fantastic argument for physical. i have yet to hear anything other than "there's more moves" for special.

and by my count...9/5 special vs physical fire moves, not counting sacred fire and magma storm. not too big of a difference there, and this thing could still GET special moves.

and for grass...11/8. much closer. plus all of grass's support moves.

we're limiting ourselves creatively by going special. the design problem isnt really a problem! remember all those things we came up with? the lion? the rodent? the rhino? the trees? just off the top of my head! the only thing that couldnt go physical too easily is the fairy type stuff.

come on people!! physical is the way to go!!


EDIT: AND!!!! i just counted physical versus special attacking moves. there are 186 physical moves (i may be off by a few) to 107 special (again, give or take). That's a whopping 80 moves more to choose from!! and the types match up better physically...a lot of the special moves are psychic, ice, water or electric, which are four types i definitely dont think this can get.

point being: physical has more variety. so the argument that special has the better move selection is bullshit.

 

[Nopie]

Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer are suicidal when you factor in sandstorm and this things stealth rock weakness.

I can see these working on a physical build if we gave it a Fire type equivalent of Rock Head or an ability that reduces recoil damage. Even Reckless deserves a mention.

Fire Punch, Blaze Kick, Leaf Blade, Power Whip, a chance for a signature fire move lol

Flame Wheel + Technician would be pretty cool too. Which would make Giga drain, Razor Leaf, Magical Leaf, Needle Arm, and maybe even Bullet Seed usable as attacking options.

 

[Dane]

It's not how many moves it gets on each side. It's the quality of the moves. Outside of suicide moves, which ARE bad without an anti recoil ability (just ask Arcanine), the best moves on both types are weaker than Flamethrower and offer little in the way of side effects.

You can't say "plus all of grass's support moves" as if it's something only physical would get. Both sides of the spectrum has access to them.

And we aren't limiting ourselves creatively by going special. In fact it's the opposite. If we go physical, then to even get Leaf Blade and Blaze kick it not only needs feet with which to kick, but it would also need blade-like objects somewhere on it's body with which to slash.

Anything that can be physical can be special, but not everything that can be special can be physical.

 

[gorm]

i wanted special for all the bulky waters/grounds/steels who are primarily physical def based ~_~

 

[Hyra]

You're right. Speed does matter. I was noticing that people were voting for medium speed but considering Chlorophyll an option. If that's true, then there is little difference between Medium and Very Fast. For a base 70 to outspeed everything in the sun, it would require 252 and a +nature, which is unlikely. Some people may be forgetting that Chlorophyll DOUBLES the speed, which means unless it is extremely slow, it CAN outspeed just about anything.

You make a very good point that the ability to use EV on things other than speed, that is the scariest part of a pokemon with Chlorophyll and anything higher than roughly 50 base speed. It would outspeed everything and be free to dump EV's wherever it wants. If the other stats are anything decent (I can only assume they will be) then you have a powerful monster on your hands.

However Kingdra has 95's in all attacks and defenses AND has 85 base speed with Swift Swim AND one of the best typings in the game. With all that, Kingdra is not even considered a major OU threat. Some say it is BL. I've said from the beginning that I would like a "Kingdra of the Sun". That's what I am advocating with Mixed/Mixed/Fast. I don't think such a pokemon would be broken at all. Particularly with the SR weak this pokemon has, that so many people seem to be forgetting.

As far as other game precedent goes, there is overwhelming evidence that Gamefreak generally only gives Chlorophyll to pokes with roughly 50-55 base speed. I think Jumpluff and Shiftry are the only exceptions. Neither of those are really a threat because their other stats suck so badly. We would be significantly bucking the trend, if we gave Chlorophyll to a pokemon with a well-rounded stat spread.

But, maybe that's what needs to happen to make sun a legitimate weather threat. Other than the GrowthTran combo a while back, it doesn't seem like sun has any real applicability in the metagame. I don't think this pokemon needs to be a religious crusade for Sunny Day, but it would be nice if we could point to this pokemon and say that it filled a defined niche.

This! I want it to be like Kingdra, at least speed-wise. The ability to outspeed every things common with no Speed EV's is nice (excluding faster ScarfChomp and such).

so:

Attack--> Special
Defense --> Mixed
Speed --> Fast

Special because Fire and Grass have horrible physical movepools outside of WoodHammer and Flare Blitz, both of which suck on a SubSeeder. Mixed defenses because thats cool. Fast Speed because 216x2=432!

But I like Aldaron's idea of high HP. hm... I'm just going to experiment with High HP + Speed on a set (oh noes, more convention breaking than anything mentioned so far!):

110 HP / X Atk / 80 Def / 100 SAtk / 80 SDef / 90 Speed.
Okay that's 460... It can't have more than 70 Atk because I want it to special, so here goes 65 Atk.

110 / 65 Atk / 80 Def / 100 SAtk / 80 SDef / 90 Speed.
Now we have 525 points. These can either go in HP, SAtk or a Defense. I'm gonna choose HP to emphasize the High HP =/= low speed point.

125 HP / 65 Atk / 80 Def / 100 SAtk / 80 SDef / 90 Speed.
Defenses on this need to be tweaked, I don't want them to be even, but am not sure which should be higher. I would probably take 5 out of SAtk for this purpose. Now, this can SubSeed very well, being Bulky and fast. It can also use Modest Nature 252 EV's + Sunny Day to wreak havoc offensively (having equal to or 5 more SAtk than Kindgra).

I really like that spread. You could do the same thing and switch SAtk with Atk, but then you lose Fire Blast and (choose one) Leaf Storm/Grass Knot/Solarbeam. I really like Fire Blast. Alot. Alot more so than any physical Fire Attack. Nothing on the physical side comes close (Flare Blitz = -20% HP most of the time). Honestly, Fire's poor physical movepool is making choose Special. The only thing that would convince me to choose physical is being guaranteed that we will get a 100+ BP no drawback Physical Fire move, which no one can. So, yeah, Special because of the better movepool there.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Offensive: Physcial
Defensive: Mixed
Speed: Fast

Change my Vote to:

Offensive: Physical(Medium, like base 90 or so)
Defensive: Mixed (But high, like base 110)
Speed: Very Slow (Like base 20)

He'll be a tank.

I normally don't mention but can you either edit the first post you made with your revised vote, or delete it and post it up as a new post. Having them both bold make it hard to count, thus making the tally not so accurate.




Warning: Spolier alert lol
Offensively Physical: 21
Offensively Special: 46
Offensively Mixed: 8

Defensively Physical: 3
Defensively Special: 13
Defensively Mixed: 58

Very Fast:0
Fast: 30
Medium: 37
Slow: 4

 

[Deck Knight]

I can see these working on a physical build if we gave it a Fire type equivalent of Rock Head or an ability that reduces recoil damage. Even Reckless deserves a mention.

Flame Wheel + Technician would be pretty cool too. Which would make Giga drain, Razor Leaf, Magical Leaf, Needle Arm, and maybe even Bullet Seed usable as attacking options.

Technician would be pretty hard to justify on nearly anything. So far the only things that have it are fairly agile attackers known for either speed or multi-hits, e.g. Sycther/Scizor, Ambipom, Hitmontop. It's a cool idea, but barely plausible.

Technician Flame Wheel would give a hardy "&^%$ you" to random Ice Beam freezes (it defrosts the user when selected) though.

 

[Dane]

@Hyra: I assume those 425 and such are supposed to be 525? Either way, the defenses seem too low to actually take hits. 80 isn't exactly what I'd call bulky, and high HP isn't good for a subseeder.

125 base HP grants an HP spread between 391 and 454. Unless he's seeding Blissey, he'll be lucky to recover 10% hp through seeding.

My personal spread is:
Hp - 80
Atk - 65
Def - 104
SpAtk - 114
SpDef - 108
Speed - 69
BST = 540

Speed gives enough so that, if maxed out with EVs and +speed nature, beats all non-scarfed non +speed nature Togekiss. That's a hefty investment, but I believe having the option available is a good thing. The defenses are, as Deck Knight said, great for just shrugging off attacks.

 

[doublestatus]

i want to do a question:
97/97/97/97/97/97 is mediocre?

 

[latinoheat]

meh i really think mixed is the best option, something like 95 att and 115 special att is considered balanced this can hurt on both sides.

 

[Aldaron]

91 / 90 / 106 / 130 / 106 / 77
^Heatran

85 / 70 / 90 / 115 / 105 / 60
^Deck Knight's spread.

OK, so I realize I might be being pedantic with this comparison stuff. Obviously plenty of Pokemon have lower stats than other Pokemon, and serve different purposes. I mean, the moveset definitely makes a difference, right?

Hell, our Fire Pokemon is part Grass! Even if it is completely outclassed in every stat by Heatran and...o wait...the special move set probably isn't as good as Heatran's...it still has...subseeding right?!!

Eh, comon guys. Give our guy something besides the obvious cool typing. Yea, Fire / Grass is awesome as it is; it hits 7 types SE, is only resisted by Dragon and Fire, is only defensively weak to 3 types not used too often, Rock, Flying and Poison, and it has obvious advantages in a certain weather. Alright, so typing wise, we've got a cool start.

To not take advantage of this unique start and go even further is sad, however. Making a mini-Heatran (and honestly, Steel / Fire with Flash Fire is every bit as good as Fire / Grass) or a Typhlosion-clone just seems to be such a waste of potential. Even worse is trying to compensate this by claiming that we are making it efficient in a strategy based on its secondary typing already utilized effectively by various Pokemon (SubSeeding).

There seriously aren't too many viable OU Fire Pokemon that can hit the physical side hard, while there are plenty of Fire Pokemon than can hit the special side hard. Having a spread of 100 Atk / 70 SpA is significantly different than 70 Atk / 100 SpA, and not simply due to the numbers.

Of the main Fires used in OU, Heatran is obviously the one used the most as a defensive one. However, it is always specially defensive. Look at what our Fire / Grass would hopefully be coming in against or even have to potentially face; Garchomp, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Metagross, Weavile, Heracross and Swampert. All of those are physical threats. The three Pokemon it would be switching in or potentially facing that are special are Heatran, Salamence (potentially physical) and Gengar. Note, I'm just looking at the top 20. This would seem to imply that our guy should be a physically defensive build. How many Fires do you know that could switch into that list of Pokemon? Only Tyranitar and Gyarados might give you troubles with CB Stone Edge or DD Stone Edge.

Of course, that's merely about the offensive and defensive stats...what about HP and Speed? Honestly, I don't really care about Speed (though you SubSeeder-fanboys should, since higher Speed is beneficial to that strategy), but I certainly care about HP. HP is easily the most underrated of the defensive stats. I can't begin to explain how significant HP is to surviving hits on average.

Remember, by increasing HP, we're going to be stat efficient.

110 HP / 80 Def / 80 SpD is more defensive on average than 90 HP / 90 Def / 90 SpD. Just to clarify this, let's say we choose generic spreads of 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD Bold. This would give us 424 HP / 242 Def / 236 SpD for the first spread and 384 HP / 264 Def / 256 SpD for the second spread. For both Defense and Special Defense, the second spread is inferior. 424 * 242 = 102608, 424 * 236 = 100064. 384 * 264 = 101376 (lower), 384 * 256 = 98304 (again, lower).

You yourself, Dane, have stated how if we gave this Pokemon Chlorophyll that you would like for it to be as efficient as possible without Sun. Well, assuming we remain consistent, I would appreciate it if our Pokemon was as efficient as possible without having to resort to SubSeeding. This would mean higher HP, of course.

Forget about the unique factor...if we want to maximize efficiency, higher HP is more advantageous than higher individual defensive stats.

EDIT: I am just going to state that I find it absolutely ridiculous that you guys are even considering building a spread that emphasizes an overly common strategy for the secondary typing. I understand the movepool being influenced by Grass...but our Base Stat Spread?! Jesus Christ. And it isn't even something interesting...it is SubSeeding...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Attack: Special
Defense: Mixed
Speed: Medium

Special attack because I honestly can't see a flaming plant (or something...) getting something like Flare Blitz.

Mixed defense because it shouldn't be wide open to one spectrum of attacks. I'd prefer a small special bias, but I'm biased towards special in general.

Just to clarify on speed, I'm talking about the upper end of medium, say 80-ish. That way it won't be totally useless without Chlorophyll. And I have a Sunny Day team that would most definitely benefit from something like this. <_<

 

[latinoheat]

@Hyra: I assume those 425 and such are supposed to be 525? Either way, the defenses seem too low to actually take hits. 80 isn't exactly what I'd call bulky, and high HP isn't good for a subseeder.

125 base HP grants an HP spread between 391 and 454. Unless he's seeding Blissey, he'll be lucky to recover 10% hp through seeding.

My personal spread is:
Hp - 80
Atk - 65
Def - 104
SpAtk - 114
SpDef - 108
Speed - 69
BST = 540

Factoring in there is still a good chance of this getting clorophyll, dont you think something with 80/65/104/114/108/118 after a one turn sunny day is abit too good. Considered its gonna have access to two of the best offensive stabs and most likely all the usual grass support moves.

The likes of Ursa and Aldaron are really making me want to try physical just to see how it goes, shame its not gonna win at this point.

Everyone should go mixed this gives it both options, its not like a fire/grass offensive typing,sunny day and shit like sleep powder isn't gonna mean its anything less then very good, no matter whether it's physical,special or mixed.

Sub- Seed is a piece of shit strategy anyway leave that to sceptile, i would think we could be a bit more ambition, when we have such a great pokemon based on just what the typing alone brings with it.

 

[Dane]

You yourself, Dane, have stated how if we gave this Pokemon Chlorophyll that you would like for it to be as efficient as possible without Sun. Well, assuming we remain consistent, I would appreciate it if our Pokemon was as efficient as possible without having to resort to SubSeeding. This would mean higher HP, of course.

Actually, I said Sunny Day not Chlorophyll. This could easily mean Flower Power (or whatever it's called). I'd like to reiterate, is Dusknoir not efficient? It has 45 base HP, and 130 base defenses. Does it not take hits? You seem to think that without 110+ hp it won't be able to take hits. If he has this much hp, his ability to subseed will dramatically decrease, while not actually aiding his ability to do anything else.

Forget about the unique factor...if we want to maximize efficiency, higher HP is more advantageous than higher individual defensive stats.

I'd say having the ability to run multiple different sets efficiently is better than being able to have huge ass hp. If they don't know what you're running, they won't know how to counter you.

Factoring in there is still a good chance of this getting clorophyll, dont you think something with 80/65/104/114/108/118 after a one turn sunny day is abit too good. Considered its gonna have access to two of the best offensive stabs and most likely all the usual grass support moves.

Not really. Using that logic, Kingdra is too good after one turn of Rain Dance, getting 170 Speed. And whether it gets Chlorophyll or not isn't decided. It could easily get Flower Gift or whatever it's called and still be amazing in Sunny Day.

 

[Hyra]

Aldaron basically says why I went for high HP. Seed is good without Sub anyways, and if they can't break the Sub in one hit...

Because of what Aldaron said about Heatran, I'm shifting more to Physical Defense, and some out of HP because I just went for a ridiculous example. Entei has 115 HP, correct? So I want either 110 or 120 to be different from Entei.

120 HP / 65 Atk / 95 Def / 95 SAtk / 75 SDef / 90 Speed...

Okay 95 x .8 = 76.... wow that's annoying. Time to make this spread interesting anyways.

116 HP / 63 Atk / 94 Def / 97 Satk / 76 SDef / 94 Speed

Yay! I might just have to cut the speed down because fast isn't winning so far. but that means at max 14 Speed. Hm.. I think 82 or 83 speed would get 203 Speed without any EV's. the rest could go into Def or SAtk....

(yes I am working on a stat spread. I can predict with reasonable accuracy what will win this. I can just multiply stats by the chosen BST/540 to convert this later)

 

[latinoheat]

Water/Dragon is not really anywhere near as good as Fire/Grass offensively, add to that the nearly 20 points less special attack.

This thing is probably going to get sleep powder,WOW and some other really good support moves that Kingdra also doesn't have. Kingdra really only has the lack of a stealth rock weakness over this thing.

 

[Dane]

Hrmm, that's not bad, but why are you using a defensively physical spread? That option is losing like, 3 to 58 =/

I see what you're saying about Kingdra and Chlorophyll, but honestly I'm not even looking at Chlorophyll. If a spread like Hyra's won, I could see Chlorophyll working.

And people need to stop looking at other Pokemon and trying to make this different. With over 400 Pokemon, you're bound to find something with a similar spread. Make the Pokemon on it's own merit, or make it similar to another (like Kingdra, etc). Don't try to make it different just so you can say "Hey, at least it doesn't have similar stats to <X Pokemon>!"

 

[Karrot]

- Physical: A pokémon is considered physical if its special stats are lower than the physical stats by 30%.
- Special: A pokémon is considered special if its physical stats are lower than the special stats by 30%.

According to Hyra's spread:
116 HP / 63 Atk / 94 Def / 97 Satk / 76 SDef / 94 Speed

94*.7=65.8

76 > 65.8

EDIT: I agree, though, with the last part of Dane's post. We should be focusing completely on how to make this the best Pokemon with what we are given. We should not really be using other Pokemon to make relative comparisons.

 

[Hyra]

Hrmm, that's not bad, but why are you using a defensively physical spread? That option is losing like, 3 to 58 =/

did I not tweak the set so that SDef was more than 80% of Def? I even wrote that into the post. 95x0.8=76. I compensated for that in the next one.

I see what you're saying about Kingdra and Chlorophyll, but honestly I'm not even looking at Chlorophyll. If a spread like Hyra's won, I could see Chlorophyll working.

You should always consider Chlorophyll, just because of the strong parallels people draw to Kingdra when thinking about this. I actually would prefer 105 Speed, but realize the HP is more important overall.

And people need to stop looking at other Pokemon and trying to make this different. With over 400 Pokemon, you're bound to find something with a similar spread. Make the Pokemon on it's own merit, or make it similar to another (like Kingdra, etc). Don't try to make it different just so you can say "Hey, at least it doesn't have similar stats to <X Pokemon>!"

If a spread is another Pokemon's, but with everything lower, it will not be used, especially if they share a type. It's basically like creating a pre-evo for something.

@ latinoheat:
Kingdra has 95 SAtk, I gave this guy 97 SAtk, how is that 20 points more? Also, I took even defenses like Kingdra and leaned them slightly towards one side. And I used exactly 540, just because that is what Kingdra has and it is 47/48th used. If you don't want this to have 540 BST, vote for that in the next poll. (Btw, your use of everything is horrible. Syclant had 555 BST, Revenakh had 525. One half of what we have created has 540+ BST, not everything).

@ GT: shush

 

[latinoheat]

i got mixed up with danes original that had high defences and really high special. For the 540+ bst i meant do we have to allow things to get 540 bst,540 is very powerful you can easily make a competivite OU pokemon on much less then that.

 

[beej]

Man, I was for mixed offense before, but Aldaron really kinda got be rooting for physical offense. I'd like to chance that vote if I could...

 

[Dane]

Ok, so it wasn't defensively physical by that definition. I forgot it was 30% rather than 20%, and it seemed odd that Hyra made SpDef 20% lower than Def.

And I noticed the white lettering GT. And what do you mean by those spreads coming from Nape/Tran?

did I not tweak the set so that SDef was more than 80% of Def? I even wrote that into the post. 95x0.8=76. I compensated for that in the next one.

Err, thought you left it at 75, rather than updating to 76. But if 76 is 80% of 95, then the definition would say you need 77 ("at least 20% lower"), but apparently physical/special is 30% rather than 20% anyway.

 

[Rhykune]

This pokemon is going to be outclassed by Heatran if we are not careful like Aldaron said... With that in mind, I put together a spread of my own. Assuming Special, Mixed and Medium. (The ones currently leading.)

First off is HP. I would like a fairly low HP for better subseeding, but not too low that it dies to Seismic Toss in two or three hits. Not that it would matter, because all this special attacker can do to Blissey is subseed. I'd say that 60 is a pretty good number...

Attack is next. I will figure it out later when I know how many stat points I have to spare.

Defense: As these are balanced defenses, and I want it running with low HP, the defenses are going to need to be fairly high, but not so high as it walls better than Dusknoir. 115 seems like a fair enough number as it is enough that it can take hits but not anywhere near a ton of stuff. Also, my spread is going to be primarily defensive, as I feel this could make a great Tank typing. So 115 it is.

Special Defense: See Defense... Right now it is 115, but I may change it so that it is biased in one way or another.

So just for a recap so far: We have figured out all of the defensive stats so far with 60/115/115 defenses. This leaves us at a 290 total so far. If we are aiming for a spread somewhere in the early-mid 500's. (Since we don't know yet) We have about 250 EV's left to spare between Attack, Special Attack and Speed.

Special Attack: Since this is the main attacking stat, is has to be relatively high, but since I gave it such good defenses, it can't be too good. 100 may seem like a fairly arbitrary number, but it is decent enough to do damage without being too too insane. I may jack it up a bit though.

Speed: I don't have much here to work with, only 60-85, but I'd say it deserves the big end of the stick here with 85, as what I am aiming for is the perfect subseeder. I wish that I had fast to work with, but I don't, so I'll take what I can.

So all that's left is the relatively useless attack, but this may have a chance of have a somewhat usable wall breaking set. I am at 60/?/115/100/115/85 so far which adds up to 475. 65 sounds fair enough, as it has possibility for damage but it far inferior to the Special attack.

That leaves us with 60/65/115/100/115/85 and a BST of 540.
The order is HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed.
Seems different enough to Heatran to me, still a little worse though.