UU Analysis Discussion Thread

[IronBullet]

Added mentions of BoltBeam along with other coverage options, but mentioned that Toss is usually better as it provides more consistent damage. Also seconding what Kink said, if you have cms access feel free to remove Pidge mentions from analyses. Thanks!

 

[Cloud Strife]

Added mentions of BoltBeam along with other coverage options, but mentioned that Toss is usually better as it provides more consistent damage. Also seconding what Kink said, if you have cms access feel free to remove Pidge mentions from analyses. Thanks!

I'm not trying to be difficult or anything, but I think that the difference between Stoss and BoltBeam and other coverage options isn't so clearly in the advantage of Stoss. Stoss is consistent damage since it always deals 100 HP. But BoltBeam typically deals much larger amounts of damage than Stoss against most of the metagame especially Pokémon that lack recovery (aka non-walls). Stoss rarely matters against walls or the bulky setup sweepers anyways since they can just recover the damage off. In addition to this, BoltBeam limits the options for wish passing recipients from opposing walls due to the great offensive typing making it harder for opposing clerics to reliably heal what they want.

I think the analysis should be changed from "However, Seismic Toss is usually the better option as it provides more consistent damage." to "However, Seismic Toss is usually the option of choice as it provides consistent damage with only one moveslot."

Also while going the analysis I noticed that Heal Bell was the favored move. I feel it should be changed to Aromatherapy due to the slim chance of Sound Proof teammates being unaffected by Heal Bell since it is a sound based move.

 

[Lumari]

Also while going the analysis I noticed that Heal Bell was the favored move. I feel it should be changed to Aromatherapy due to the slim chance of Sound Proof teammates being unaffected by Heal Bell since it is a sound based move.

From BW onwards, Heal Bell affects Soundproof mons, so that won't be necessary. Heal Bell is mainly preferred for simplicity because Aromatherapy is illegal with Wish.

 

[Ununhexium]

alrighty i think i removed all mentions of pidgeot

 

[Cloud Strife]

I went through the usage statistics on PS and checked out a few of the analysis and here are my thoughts.
Salamence: I feel that a special attack variant of FatMence is superior in most ways to that of a physical variant. There are a variety of reasons for this, but primarily it benefits from the better special attack STABs as well as the better coverage offered by Fire type moves. In addition to this, when using a special attack variant Salamence can disregard Burns. I propose either changing FatMence to a special set or an entirely different set of it's own.

Recommend change to:

FatMence
########
name: FatMence
move 1: Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
move 2: Fire Blast / Flamethrower / Toxic
move 3: Roost
move 4: Defog / Roar / Dragontail
ability: Intimidate
item: Leftovers / Rocky Helm
evs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 32 Spe
nature: Bold

Move Comments to include Dragon Breath as an option to potentially pass Paralysis at the cost of some base power (still 90 base power after STAB).

Suicune: Add mention of Roar over Sleep Talk to allow Crocune to Phaze on top of being able to beat other bulky sweepers (mostly Reun but there are others) that would setup alongside it either in OO or Moves for the set

Heracross: Facade mentioned in the Banded Guts Heracross Moves section as an additional option. In addition to this, mention of Volturn under Team Options for Banded set (or Overview) since it greatly benefits from getting in free.

Aerodactyl: New set for the Taunt Toxic varient which has been seeing much success.

Snorlax: Facade mentioned or added to Curselax set. Allows it to sweep through burn without resting. Edit: And yeah not saying it should be used for increase base power during rest, since it doesn't get that.

Tentacruel: Acid Spray added to OO

Ampharos: Discharge added to OO

Gligar: Poison Fang added to OO. 50% badly poison chance and makes it less weak to taunt.

Umbreon: Taunt added to OO. Stops opposing healing or setup. Especially nice for pokemon like Reun and opposing cleric/hazard layers which frequently switch into him.

Toxicroak: Include Doublade in comments regarding Earthquake in OO or Earthquake moved up in importance in general.

Cobalion: Plainly adding Magnet Rise to Cobalion's SD set. The move is excellent on him and shores up many of his problems, not to mention the Move analysis already talks in depth about it but is easy to miss if looking at the set alone.

Reuniclus: Signal Beam added to the Move analysis on CM Set as a mix between Focus Blast and Shadowball. AV Regen Reun and future sight added to OO

Alomomola: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 SpDef added to at least OO since it is almost always paired with a special defense wall or two and can Regenerate most neutral special attacks (i.e. Alomomola can tank a dark pulse from modest Mega Blastoise, Toxic back, Protect once and switch out and only lose at most a total of 12.9% without a critical hit. Rough math for that: 58.7% max damage minus 12.5% for two turns of Leftovers minus 33.3% for Regenerator.)

Scrafty: Scrafty just doesn't have an analysis period for anything other than VGC and Doubles. I would be more than happy to write one for Scafty in UU or update BW's existing analysis for XY UU.

Amoonguss: This one is a bit of a longshot, but I feel that Quick Claw should be added to OO. Amoonguss can greatly benefit from Quick Claw and doesn't necessarily miss the passive recovery from Black Sludge due to Giga Drain and Regenerator. In addition to this Priority Spores or Clear Smogs can be extremely clutch.

 

[IronBullet]

Sorry but I think SToss has a clear advantage. If Ice Beam and Thunderbolt don't hit something super effectively they're doing pitiful damage, so you're sacrificing the ability to hit everything in the tier for solid damage in order to hit a few choice threats harder. Sure BoltBeam coverage might be useful against more offensive teams as it does hit several top threats super effectively but against balanced and more defensive teams even se hits will be shrugged off. I think one would really miss the consistent damage of Toss + the utility move you're sacrificing for one of BoltBeam in this case. And even against offensive teams, it might be more useful to have Toxic or Thunder Wave instead of a coverage move. I think the "it provides consistent damage with only one moveslot" point is valid enough though so I agree with adding that.

Regarding your other suggestions:

• Agree with Roar Cune, Hera stuff, Acid Spray Tenta, Taunt Umbreon, Croak stuff, Magnet Rise Coba, Reuniclus stuff.
• I think including Dragon Pulse as an other option for FatMence would be fine, but I don't think special FatMence deserves its own set. Dragon Claw is better in most cases because it works off Mence's far superior attack stat and the difference in damage output between Claw and Pulse on the Pokemon it checks is pretty significant. Also, the negative nature doesn't really affect Flamethrower that much as it's only going to be used against Steel-types who are hit super-effectively on their weak SpD anyway. It doesn't really miss out on any 2HKOs e.g. 0- SpA Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 166-196 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 0 SpA Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 184-218 (56.9 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
• I don't think Taunt Toxic Aero deserves its own set because using solely Aerial Ace or Earthquake as an attacking move really sucks. Worth a mention in OO max.
• Facade doesn't seem that useful to me, Body Slam offers more consistent power and a significant paralysis chance. Trying to sweep with Lax through a burn without resting is not going to work when the burn is eating away at your health, not to mention Lax is so slow.
• Don't see Discharge being useful for Amph. The ability of Volt Switch to gain momentum for your team is so much more useful than Discharge's paralysis chance. And on offensive sets it really needs the power of Thunderbolt.
• No for Poison Fang, its other moves offer much more utility.
• I've never used Mola so I can't say how useful that set would be. I'll let other QC members provide input on that.
• Quick Claw is too gimmicky for me to considering adding as a viable item.

There's a lot of stuff here so I'd like to hear Bouffalant's thoughts and see if he agrees with me before we add anything. Thanks for your input though, a lot of your suggestions are great but I hope you understand why I don't agree on adding some.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I wasn't expecting all of them to be implemented in the first place, especially the QA Amoonguss. In addition to this I would like to make counter points or expand on some points if that is okay. I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative or anything so I hope it isn't taken as such.

Regarding the vast difference between physical and special Salamence, I concede that uninvested Dragon Claw deals 1.195x (306 attack/256 special attack) of uninvested Dragon Pulse assuming equal defenses. But I also feel the inability for Burns and Scald to affect Salamanca's damage a much larger boon. This allows Mence to toxic/defog/roost against the like of bulky waters or Rotoms assuming trick has already occurred or is a lefties set. I find this allows Salamence to perform it's utility with much less risk.

When playing with Curse Snorlax, a common counter-play is to status Snorlax early with a burn or other status conditions and abuse the eventual rest turns or lower damage output. If burned at +1 or +2 you can instead ignore it and net a surprise attack against something that assumes it can do no damage.

Thunderbolt deals 1.125x more damage than Discharge. But Discharge offers much higher team utility, limits safe switch in options due to fear of Para, and gives a higher chance of Mega Ampharos getting a free attack off. Also, Discharge is beneficial on the Sleep Talk especially when you want to use Mega Ampharos as more of a wall than a pivot. I think this perfectly justifies it being listed under OO.

Thanks for taking the time for all this, I've only looked through 6 other analyses besides the ones I mentioned previously so I'll probably be making more suggestions in the future.

 

[Bouff]

i agree with most of what ib said, although i'm reluctant to add assault vest + regen, even if its just an oo mention because it kinda deviates from what makes reuni so good in the first place in order to try and switch into a few special attackers.

i don't think using discharge is worth it on amph in most cases, especially if you're opting to run a resttalk set, because getting rid of vswitch turns amph into more of a momentum suck than a gainer lol, in exchange for a move that does 10 bp more (which never really matters most of the time) and has a chance to para.

ib said my thoughts on the other suggestions he disagreed with as well, so i dont have much else to say on that matter, everything else is fine i think

 

[Kreme]

I don't think bouff or IB touched on it, so Cloud Strife analyses are only given to Pokemon in the UnderUsed tier or Pokemon that are viable in the UnderUsed tier. Scrafty used to have a UU analysis (I'd know, I wrote it :P) but it wasn't viable in the tier then. Now, since Scrafty finally moved on to RU, the analysis was removed. And given that it isn't viable in this tier I don't believe it should get an analysis, and if it does they could just bring back the last one and update it. It's a shame Scrafty doesn't have any analyses for a singles metagame, but we'll just have to wait for the RU one to get up and running. Nevertheless, I'm not QC so the decision to have a Scrafty UU analysis isn't up to me but I had strong feelings on this one Scrafty was one of the first analyses I ever wrote.

 

[Ununhexium]

• Agree with Roar Cune, Hera stuff, Acid Spray Tenta, Taunt Umbreon, Croak stuff, Magnet Rise Coba, Reuniclus stuff.

did these except reuniclus because bouff wasnt really feeling it

 

[dodmen]

Using Facade on Snorlax is nice for when you get burned and don't want to Rest, but it really takes away from your ability to do the damage you need to do in the vast majority of situations. For example, Snorlax only needs to boost to around +3 to have a decent chance of 2HKOing Suicune with Return, but needs +6 to do so with Facade. Requiring 3 extra boosts gives Suicune more opportunities to CM up itself and have a better shot at beating you. Same goes for most CM users including Reuniclus, Slowking, and Cress. I'd say Facade is way too situational to mention on the analysis.

Read here for a discussion on Alomomola's most optimal EV spread. tl;dr investing in its already enormous HP stat is inefficient (same reason why you don't invest 252 HP in Snorlax) and relocating these EVs to SpDef allows it to more comfortably take weaker special attacks while still maintaining nearly all of its physical bulk.

calcs for Alomomola

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 148-175 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Alomomola: 202-238 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 159-187 (29.7 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 159-187 (33 - 38.8%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I agree with talking more about special moves for FatMence. The main reason that it would want to do so is since it's frequently a check to Entei. Also, Dragon Pulse does more than Dragon Claw on several Stealth Rock users like Krook, Swampert, Donphan, and again, is a lot better when Salamence happens to get burned. Personally I always run special attacks on FatMence, but it's up to you, IB.

calcs for Salamence

0- SpA Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

On defensive variants of Ampharos, Volt Switch over Discharge is an absolute must. This is to prevent stuff like Florges from coming in and getting a free turn to heal up a teammate with Wish. Being able to pivot out with Volt Switch is better than staying in and going for Discharge because you get to bring in a teammate that has an advantage on whatever your opponent switched in. On offensive variants, Volt Switch is the Electric move you're using most of the time, and when you're using the other one, it's to get as much power out of it as possible.

calcs for Amph

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%)
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 170-204 (42 - 50.4%)
vs.
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Discharge vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 204-242 (50.4 - 59.9%)
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Discharge vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%)

:)

 

[Cloud Strife]

Below are the 3 main physical attackers I feel that justify Alomomola having 232 HP / 252 Def / 32 SpAtk. I know there are other cases where the difference matters besides the ones listed below but I am drawing a blank.

Most stall teams have relatively little for Choice Banded Heracross. If Alomomola lacks HP investment it no longer has an effective chance to deal with Heracross by PP stalling Close Combat.

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO (Chance of living after SR and Protect assuming still has lefties)
252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO (Chance of living after SR and Protect assuming still has lefties)

Another trouble Pokemon for Stall is SD Gatr. With HP investment, Alomomola can reliably beat Gatr's without substitute. The difference between the two sets is that the HP investment allows Alomomola to do the following safely: to come in on the SD>Toxic after Crunch>Wish on SD/Crunch with no chance of dying outside a critical hit. 40 HP investment has to essentially be at 100% without SR to stand a chance at doing this or rely on prediction after the Toxic (will he SD or Crunch). In addition to this, 232 HP Alomomola can also deal with Adamant Gatr with a decent chance while 40 HP has no chance at all.


+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 212-250 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 212-250 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 212-250 (40 - 47.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 212-250 (44 - 51.9%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

For when Alomomola comes into a +2 Gatr Crunch.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 203-239 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Chance after SR+Protect)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 212-250 (44 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO (Chance after SR+Protect)


Finally Mega Beedrill. Without HP investment, U-turn chips away at Alomomola's health at a rate that exceeds it's passive recovery. This allows it to be able to 2HKO Alomomola reliably with Poison Jab after just a few U-Turns on the 40 HP set after Knock Off. In fact, Beedrill can deal with 40 HP Alomomola after having Alomomola come in twice on Beedrill if certain conditions are met.
Edit: The reasoning behind why you would want to use Alomomola for a Beedrill is two fold. Alomomola lets you Protect on the commonly paired Rotom to scout for Trick and can also passively wear Rotom down through status damage forcing Beedrill to switch to something else. The other reason is that Alomomola is relatively unaffected from a loss of Leftovers compared to other walls due to the passive recovery of Regenerate.

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 156-184 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 156-184 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 178-210 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 178-210 (37 - 43.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and poison damage

Now for the special investment difference. Alomomola doesn't have that much problems taking neutral special hits naturally. Alomomola can still effective wish pass against Florges with a potential loss of no health after leftovers (at most loses ~5.25% after Regen). Also worth mentioning, Florges can't even force Alomomola out while Alomomola can force Florges out by Toxic'ing and wasting Aromatherapy PP. Since Florges pretty much has the highest special attack out of any walls, this means that no other neutral STAB attack really matters to Alomomola from any other walls. And again, Alomomola can tank a dark pulse from modest Mega Blastoise, Toxic back, Protect once and switch out and only lose at most a total of 12.9% without a critical hit. That is an effective base 120 power move from a base +135 special attack. What more does Alomomola need? In addition to this, Alomomola is almost always paired with a special defensive Pokemon. According to the current uu-1630.txt, Alomomola is paired with Blissey a whopping 31.3% of the time and the rest of the list is riddled with special walls.

I feel these above reasons alone justify the 232/252/24 EV spread being mentioned at least in the OO section. Personally I feel the analysis should feature both EV sets in the Sunfish set with the lower HP variant coming first while the set details discusses that 40/252/216 is more for a utility wall on balance and 232/252/24 is more for hard physical wall for full stall.

Edit: In case you were wanting the exact difference between physical and special bulks, they are as follows. 232 HP Alomomola takes 91% of the physical damage compared to 40 HP Alomomola. 40 HP Alomomola conversely takes 81% of the special damage 232 HP Alomomola would take. In addition to this, 232 HP Alomomola has a higher effective HP due to 232 HP Alomomola receiving the following: 3 extra HP from each leftovers tick, Wish healing for 24 more HP, and Regenerator healing for 16 extra HP. After two Leftover ticks and switching, 232 HP Alomomola would have healed for 22 HP more than 40 HP Alomomola! Even if you Include SR into that (6 extra HP damage), Alomomola still comes away with 16 HP extra. With so many sources of passive % HP healing, Health scales much more into Alomomola's effective bulk than apparent at first.

In addition to this, I remembered another case where the difference in HP matters. Hone Claws Aerodactyl, +1 Stone Edge is always a 3HKO on 232 HP Alomomola after SR while it has a 64.5% chance to 2HKO 40 HP Alomomola.

+1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 210-247 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 210-247 (43.6 - 51.3%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Crobat: Super Fang needs added to OO. Hits steels it would otherwise come in free (Mega Aggron/Empoleon) and does significant damage to walls.

 

[teal6]

I hate to do this because I just noticed the new one was uploaded, but it was the tweet that made me see it in the first place. Defensive Xatu (http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/xatu/uu/) should have Giga Drain and Heat Wave added to its options, most likely slashed with U-Turn or in the Night Shade slot (though Shade is very useful). Giga Drain is for Swamperts and lets you beat max attack MSwamp 1v1, Heat Wave catches Forrys that try and Volt Switch out assuming you can't do much back to them. Considering they're both hazard setters that you would likely want to switch in on / stay in on, these are pretty important options I think and should be mentioned on the defensive variant which is really the only one run in UU.

 

[Ununhexium]

in OO for Suicune can I add a mention of SubCM Roar Suicune because its awesome

or even as a mention in the moves of the SubCM set or give it a slash because its literally amazing

edit: can Scarf Chandelure mention running both Trick and Memento

 

[IronBullet]

Did Super Fang Crobat, Giga Drain / Heat Wave Xatu, and SubCM Roar Cune. Memento Chandelure has already been done.

I've never used Mola so I can't give an opinion on how useful the EV spread Cloud Strife suggested is, I'll leave that up to other QC members.

 

[DaSpoofy]

I'm looking at the analysis from the installed PS app and the jellicent one seems to be lacking some things. For one it shows it will taunt and no speed.

I could be wrong but I think the set is suppose to look more like this one so you can get suicune, cresselia, and mandibuzz with a little bit of creep speed.
Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Scald/ Hex
- Recover
- Taunt

Also hex over scald is a thing. The export also does not have the 0 IVs but i dont know if thats a problem. When people use jellicent I assume its for wall breaking>walling. You dont wall break much at 157 speed :/. This might be an entirely different set. I look to the analysis because i don't know what speed jellicent run but Im pretty sure its not 4.

 

[Bouff]

I'm looking at the analysis from the installed PS app and the jellicent one seems to be lacking some things. For one it shows it will taunt and no speed.
View attachment 48569
I could be wrong but I think the set is suppose to look more like this one so you can get suicune, cresselia, and mandibuzz with a little bit of creep speed.
Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Scald/ Hex
- Recover
- Taunt

Also hex over scald is a thing. The export also does not have the 0 IVs but i dont know if thats a problem. When people use jellicent I assume its for wall breaking>walling. You dont wall break much at 157 speed :/. This might be an entirely different set. I look to the analysis because i don't know what speed jellicent run but Im pretty sure its not 4.

hey, first off id like to preface this by saying that sorry for the slow response, both me and ib have been pretty busy as of late so we haven't had much time D:

i do agree that the current on site spread could be changed a bit, but outspeeding 85s n stuff is wayyy too much. 44 speed is probably the best way to go because otherwise else you don't really have much physical bulk - yeah beating cune 1v1 is nice and all, but honestly, i wouldn't use jellicent as my primary suicune check.. u can taunt + wow every other fat water type but jellicent's bulk is a pretty big factor in using it and i wouldn't really give it up to beat the fat 85s, even if they are pretty important mons to beat rn. i do agree that hex should get t least a mention, though. as for the ivs, atk ones aren't included in the analyses for mons that don't use physical attacks because it's assumed that you're doing that anyway.

on another note, we've been doing some cms updates as of late, and i'm gonna edit what they are in the op - there are more of these that me and IronBullet will keep u guys updated on, but here's what we've done so far;

whimsicott - changed the set order, moving the offensive set to the first, as it's what people use the most and is what's most consistent. removed LO and put lefties / pixie plate as the main items, as lo racks up unnecessary u-turn damage and the damage output that comes with it isn't enough to make that drawback worthwhile. also added a bulkier spread mention on the offensive set as it lets u take hits better from things like hydrei, gatr, megapert, etc. while being faster than the support set, as well as a mention on that running more or less bulk than the given spread can be used to ur personal preference.

aboma - growth added to oo. while it's not as good vs offense as sd, it expands on its stallbreaking potential, and still deals some pretty nice damage vs offense at +1 wit shard. it hits some pretty neat benchmarks (i.e. having a small chance to 2hko doublade with +1 blizz after rocks), and psychotic vs pif for botw is pretty much a testament to how dangerous it is versus some of the slower defensive builds

aero - replaced all mentions of aa with wing attack as it's pretty much the better move lol, they deal the same power but wing attack has 48 pp as opposed to aa having 36. not missing is the only advantage that aa actually has but since the only accuracy lowering move that exists is muddy water on goodra (so basically it doesn't exist) it's way too specific for aa to have a use over wing attack. i mean, i guess it sounds cooler...

spread was also changed to max speed, i don't think there's any real benefit to running 216 speed as u lose ties vs other aeros, and if youre gonna run bulk 40 hp isn't really a feasible amount either.

beedrill - tspikes added to oo, while it's not as useful as knock or drill run it does wear down some of bees more notable answers like p2 and mola, wearing them down and making them easier to deal with late game.

reuni - twave got a bigger mention on the cm set, while it does require more team support than fblast / sball variants it does cripple its offensive checks which can be big in the long run

houndoom - protect added to the np set. there's not much i can really say that dodmen didnt in his post in the creative sets thread, but scouting scarfers is really neat for a mon commonly revenge killed by them, and the safe mevo can also be pretty handy.

ampharos - heal bell removed from the resttalk set......i don't even know how that made it but it's gone now @_@

chandy - flame body mentions in set details for the sets, pretty neat way of dealing with porygon2s trying to cheese you and punishes physical attacks as well.

cobal - lefties has the primary slash on all the sets, with shuca getting a slash on the pivot set as this lets it help switch into a fair amount of threats. lo removed from the sd set because it doesn't do anything really notable. air balloon mention in oo

think that's about it that's done as of now, but there will definitely be a lot more coming up in the next few days since me / ib have a bit more time now. i'll edit this into the op and make it a bit more formal tomorrow, keep up the good work dudes

 

[Cloud Strife]

aero - replaced all mentions of aa with wing attack as it's pretty much the better move lol, they deal the same power but wing attack has 48 pp as opposed to aa having 36. not missing is the only advantage that aa actually has but since the only accuracy lowering move that exists is muddy water on goodra (so basically it doesn't exist) it's way too specific for aa to have a use over wing attack. i mean, i guess it sounds cooler...

Aside from muddy water Goodra, a fairly common set on Slowking now includes Flash to stop or inhibit setup sweepers. Also, I personally feel that situations where the 12 PP would actually matter would be much less frequent than running into an accuracy decreasing move. And the name Aerial Ace is definitely better :) Edit: I also forgot, there are random evasion items out there as well.

 

[Kreme]

Aside from muddy water Goodra, a fairly common set on Slowking now includes Flash to stop or inhibit setup sweepers. Also, I personally feel that situations where the 12 PP would actually matter would be much less frequent than running into an accuracy decreasing move. And the name Aerial Ace is definitely better :) Edit: I also forgot, there are random evasion items out there as well.

Well, considering the only relevant accuracy decreasing move is probably that Flash on Slowking (even so, this is fairly uncommon) and Slowking would much rather TWave / Scald Aerodactyl anyway, not to mention Aerodactyl won't even stay in on Slowking in most cases. Brightpowder is the only evasion item I can think of and that's not an item recommended anywhere nor is it really seen anywhere outside of low ladder. Wing Attack also helps against archetypes that have a lot of bulk and staying power, i.e stall / semi stall, where they can easily use something like Suicune + Forretress to Pressure out Aerodactyl for example. So, imo, Wing Attack is definitely just overall better than Aerial Ace (it's sort of like the Dread Plate vs Blackglasses thing, not too much of a difference but honestly one simply outclasses the other when directly compared).

 

[Saria]

Aside from muddy water Goodra, a fairly common set on Slowking now includes Flash to stop or inhibit setup sweepers. Also, I personally feel that situations where the 12 PP would actually matter would be much less frequent than running into an accuracy decreasing move. And the name Aerial Ace is definitely better :) Edit: I also forgot, there are random evasion items out there as well.

Aero shouldn't be staying into Slowking unless it's in the OHKO range.

But anyways. AA and Wing Attack are basically the same thing. They both have obscure and uncommon uses, so might as well mention it can use both and explain the "benefits" of each move.

Well, considering the only relevant accuracy decreasing move is probably that Flash on Slowking (even so, this is fairly uncommon) and Slowking would much rather TWave / Scald Aerodactyl anyway, not to mention Aerodactyl won't even stay in on Slowking in most cases. Brightpowder is the only evasion item I can think of and that's not an item recommended anywhere nor is it really seen anywhere outside of low ladder. Wing Attack also helps against archetypes that have a lot of bulk and staying power, i.e stall / semi stall, where they can easily use something like Suicune + Forretress to Pressure out Aerodactyl for example. So, imo, Wing Attack is definitely just overall better than Aerial Ace (it's sort of like the Dread Plate vs Blackglasses thing, not too much of a difference but honestly one simply outclasses the other when directly compared).

Dread Plate and Blackglasses do literally the same thing unless you are using Arceus.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Well, considering the only relevant accuracy decreasing move is probably that Flash on Slowking (even so, this is fairly uncommon) and Slowking would much rather TWave / Scald Aerodactyl anyway, not to mention Aerodactyl won't even stay in on Slowking in most cases. Brightpowder is the only evasion item I can think of and that's not an item recommended anywhere nor is it really seen anywhere outside of low ladder. Wing Attack also helps against archetypes that have a lot of bulk and staying power, i.e stall / semi stall, where they can easily use something like Suicune + Forretress to Pressure out Aerodactyl for example. So, imo, Wing Attack is definitely just overall better than Aerial Ace (it's sort of like the Dread Plate vs Blackglasses thing, not too much of a difference but honestly one simply outclasses the other when directly compared).

Sorry, but quite frankly I can hardly even conceive a situation where the difference of 12 PP on Aerodactyl would actually make a difference. If Suicune wants to pressure stall you like you said, it would just be better off flat out killing you with Scald+Burn and you would run out of Roost PP way before threatening Suicune. The only two possible situations where I could consider Mega Aerodactyl possibly needs more PP is when you only have Mega Aerodactyl left and your opponent is for whatever reason PP stalling you by switching Pokemon (both of which would pretty much have to have regenerator) or for whatever odd reason you are fighting a regular Pressure Aerodactyl with Substitute and Roost that is trying to PP stall you. And in the case of PP stalling with Mega Aerodactyl, I'd imagine the limiting factor on both sides would be Recovery PP not actually Aerial Ace or Wing Attack. Conversely, notable ladder players like PIF are using Slowking with Flash and random players can use accuracy dropping moves or evasion items.

As such, I don't really see a way you could argue that running into a situation where the 12 extra PP on Mega Aerodactyl would matter could occur more frequent than running into a user of accuracy dropping moves or evasion items.

Also, the only exception where Wing Attack would be preferred over AA for it's higher PP amount would be on very specific stall Pokemon such as Poison Heal Gliscors that choose to run flying STAB.

 

[Saria]

You are being really short sighted. Not all games are 20 turns long and some games require the players to do more than play turn by turn without making long term plans.

Aerodactly has no reason to stay in against healthy Suicune, Flash Slowking (the "AA better because Flash" point is completely irrelevant. You are not switching Aero into Flash Slowking) or any other bulky Water-type, because it hates Scald. It's fairly obvious Aerodactly isn't going to get pp stalled 1v1ing Suicune, that's not how PP stall works and I'm not sure why you are mentioning that literally nonexistent scenario.

PP stalling can a real issue in long games. Stallish teams tend to have longer than average games. Aerodactyl is a good Pokemon in stallish teams. PP stalling can be a real issue for Aerodactyl.

You don't get PP stalled 1v1ing your counters. PP stall happens when you hit the opposite team dozens of times through a long game to wear it down slowly, force it to waste healing moves PP, stop it from creating easy win conditions. Bulky / Support Aerodactyl only has two moves to do this and it really needs Stone Edge because of its power, which means it has a fairly limited amount of PP, especially if it's running Aerial Ace. The difference between 40 PP and and 64 PP in PP stall wars is massive.

Being better prepared to PP stall wars against a player who knows how to conserve PP is more important than using AA against low ladder cheese. However, offensive teams shouldn't be worried about PP stall, so if Aero is being used in offense might as well use AA to not miss against Brightpower garbage and Acupressure Shuckle / Drapion.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Fyi flash has a gigantic distribution and it's not just slowking that can be using it for these last pokemon scenarios but it hasn't really caught on on anything else. Frankly it hasn't even caught on on slowking so it truly is irrelevant against aero, even beyond the fact aero is scald bait not flash bait.

The reason I thought aerial ace was used was because some type of legality issue with defog or something I used on defensive set before? Or perhaps I'm mixing this up with salamence which I use aa on for Heracross, I know mence doesn't learn wing attack at all.

And for the record there is a difference between dread plate and black glasses it has something to do if your opponent steals your item and then flings it, they have different fling powers so one of them hurts you more. This is irrelevant basically 99.999 percent of the time but to be honest aa vs wing attack will be irrelevant 99.9% of the time so if you're following the principle without a defined cut off...

Other tiny changes to your analysis in oo you may want to make include
Mentioning flash slowking lol
Physically defensive umbreon with moonlight and toxic over wish protect is great because foul play and has less competition from bliss florges
Taunt on umbreon to beat reuniclus and snorlax mainly in last mon scenarios
Blissey with more spdef evs and calm nature so it can wall truly scary stuff for stall like pz critdra specs drag etc better
Curse megapert honestly deserves a set I think because it's just a good solid "win condition" I could write t if nobody wants too
Mention of aerial ace on defensively minded salamence because heracross and ohko roserade among a few other targets.

 

[Saria]

Don't compare PP stalling with Trick + Fling to "abuse" plates. One is a relatively common scenario in high level games between stall teams; emphasis on high level, not shitty ladder matches. The other is a terrible "strat" that no one uses, not even the most terrible lower ladder player, because it quite literally has no competitive value.

It's like saying Mew / Latias / Latios should run Roost to be abuse Conversion 2 turning it into a Flying-type Pokemon. Completely irrelevant point that shouldn't be mentioned in serious competitive discussions.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Hikari

I think you're mistaken. Why don't you show me a single so called high quality match -outside the ladder- where PP stalling exists with Aerial Ace and Wing Attack. I don't think you'll find any because Aerodactly's WA/AA just isn't a move prone to being stalled out...you will rarely target moves like Aerial Ace rather you're going to target things like Heal Bell and Defog.

Trust me Hikari I understand things like Fling really don't exist. I know you don't think highly of me but give me a little credit, no need to explain to me like I'm a complete idiot for lack of a better word. However even if they are used .0000000001% of the time then why don't you take that free .000000001% (or how many zeros I put). It is the exact same principle as using WA over AA except even more clearly defined - Brightpowder and Flash among other moves might actually make AA more useful in random games but less overall than stallwars - because otherwise the two items are exactly the same.