CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Scepticallistic]

If Superpower actually does OHKO TTar, then sure as hell Focus Punch will.

But Focus Punch is more difficult to pull off when Tyranitar is already in the field and requires more prediction. With Superpower, you can outspeed and KO Tyranitar when he comes in on like a T-bolt.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

But Focus Punch is more difficult to pull off when Tyranitar is already in the field and requires more prediction. With Superpower, you can outspeed and KO Tyranitar when he comes in on like a T-bolt.

But Superpower downgrades attack as well, and he did say "it might OHKO", not "it will OHKO"

 

[Coronis]

If you're playing non-competitive arguments for allowing Mist Ball/Luster Purge and Tri Attack, then stop. Tri Attack makes no sense for the Pokemon and is also useless competitively, and Mist Ball/Luster Purge are also useless and exclusive moves, meaning that they shouldn't be handed out like commonplace moves. Same goes for Spacial Rend, but Spacial Rend is also too cheap for CAP8 since Dragon Pulse is already there, why give it an OP STAB move just to hand out useful moves..

If you're going to make an argument about something, try not to contradict yourself. You saying that Mist Ball/Luster Purge shouldn't be allowed because they're "exclusive", and yet you attack people for using non competitive reasoning to allow them. If they will add something to it's competitive value then we will include it, if it doesn't we won't. Simple.

 

[franky]

Focus Punch or Explosion to give it something to hurt Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar. Both will fail to OHKO it anyways (assuming this CAP won't invest 252 Atk EV's on it) It just gives it a slight hope of taking huge amount of chunks of Blissey, Tyranitar and Snorlax - who are biggest counters to CAP 8

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Wait...why is Earthquake considered unallowed? At the very least it should be moved into Controversial. Earthquake is in no way broken on CAP8. This thing has like 60 base attack, it's not going to be threatening much with EQ. None of his "counters" are screwed over by EQ and they're no guarantee that CAP8 would get Dragon Dance or Calm Mind. Most of his "hard counters" can take an earthquake pretty well so you don't have to worry about them. Based on the counter and check list, only Steelix, T-tar, Rhyperior, and Heatran are "hurted" badly EQ. Heatran isn't one of his "hard counters" due to being 2HKO'd by thunderbolt.

252 Expert Belt'd EQ to 252/0 Impish Steelix: 24.86% - 29.66%
252 Expert Belt'd EQ to 252/0 T-Tar: 40.35% - 47.52%
252 Expert Belt'd EQ to 244/184 Impish Rhyperior: 18.98% - 22.69%

+1 DD 252 Expert Belt'd EQ to 252/0 Impish Steelix: 37.29% - 44.07%
+1 DD 252 Expert Belt'd EQ to 252/0 T-tar: 60.40% - 71.29%
+1 DD 252 Expert Belt'd EQ to 244/184 Impish Rhyperior: 28.70% - 34.03%

Steelix and Rhyperior took CAP8's attack like champions. Both can come in and 2HKO CAP8 with their stab moves, hell Rhyperior could practically eat CAP8's EQ for breakfast. Despite what the numbers show on T-tar, that green bastard still manage to hang in there and will sent this man packing as CB earthquake plus Sand would kill most CAP8.

 

[CyzirVisheen]

Okay, we are going to begin the attacking moves poll soon, and I'd like to get any last minute discussion on any moves anyone feels should be moved to a different category.
Here's how the list looks at the moment:

Allowed:
Zap Cannon
Discharge
Dragonbreath
Thunderbolt
Dragon Pulse
Charge Beam
Aqua Tail
Draco Meteor
Overheat
Volt Tackle
AncientPower
Hyper Beam
Signal Beam
Shadow Ball
Outrage

Pending:
Explosion
Selfdestruct
Mist Ball

Controversial:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Lava Plume
Hydro Pump
Surf
Focus Punch
Super Power
Earthquake
Focus Blast

Unallowed:
Aura Sphere
Earth Power
Close Combat
Hammer Arm
Cross Chop
Grass Knot
Spacial Rend

 

[Coronis]

I'd like to see Mist Ball as allowed, a fairly low powered move that can help this things special tanking abilities.

Now onto the fire/water situation, I support having Flamethrower and Surf in the movepool. Surf isn't going to do much to t-tar, which will probably be this things main counter. The only fighting move i want to see is focus punch, anything else would be overkill. On the topic of EQ, I don't see much reason for, or against so I don't mind either way.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Superpower and Focus Punch should be moved to allowed in my opinion. Focus Punch require either a fuckton of prediction to make it work or Sub which leaves you with only two moveslots. Superpower's stat drop make it sorta like a one hit wonder and require just as much prediction as Foucs Punch. Cross Chop could be moved to Controversial but I'm neither for nor against so it doesn't matter all that much.

Explosion and Selfdestruct should be moved to unallowed for reasons stated many times before.


Edit: Even more reasoning why Focus Punch and Superpower should be allowed on CAP8.

About Focus Punch/Superpower, yes Gengar uses them of 65 Attack. However, it's not correct to say "it's still strong" because it isn't; Blissey is just weak. Without investment which Gengar needs elsewhere (as will CAP8), even Blissey can still take the blow.

 [B]Gengar:[/B]
 0 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey:    36.87% - 43.63%
 252 Superpower vs. 0/252 Blissey:  50.69% - 59.91%
 0 Focus Punch vs. 0/252 Blissey:   46.08% - 54.38%
 252 Focus Punch vs. 0/252 Blissey: 63.59% - 74.96%
  
 0 Superpower vs. 168/120 Snorlax:    29.03% - 34.59%
 252 Superpower vs. 168/120 Snorlax:  40.16% - 47.32%
 0 Focus Punch vs. 168/120 Snorlax:   36.18% - 42.94%
 252 Focus Punch vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 50.10% - 59.24%

Yeah, Gengar doesn't get Superpower, bite me. It's for reference. CAP8 will be doing slightly less damage with the corresponding moves.

Focus Punch takes extraneous setup, and this completely ignores that Blissey can't touch Gengar (especially behind a sub), meaning it's not even an ideal switch in (it'll stall with Recovery, which it can do Focus Punch or no Focus Punch). Blissey CAN touch CAP8 though, and its really sacrificing moveslots just for Blissey. It should be noted that Superpower is going to deal less damage during the second hit as well, whilest making CAP8 more vulnerable to physical attacks (go go Dugtrio). I fail to see the danger with these moves and I feel you may be overestimating their effectiveness. I can understand Selfdestruct and Explosion though. What the hell is Volt Tackle gonna hit that makes it so dangerous?

Again, max attack is laughable (and I didn't include +Attack then for that reason). If Blissey switches into a stray Superpower/Focus Punch, that's about all that's happening (won't pull off another Focus Punch, Attack drops after Superpower). Dragon Dance + Focus Punch is even more humorous than max attack. Dragon Dance + Superpower doesn't really work either (who will bring Blissey in on the DD and actually leave it?).

 

[Shade of Elysia]

Focus Punch should be allowed for the setup/prediction required, and the low Atk. Also due to the low attack, Earthquake should be allowed.

 

[Gir!]

I completely agree with Gothic Togekiss Focus Punch is hard as hell to pull off and, even with a substitute, it wouldnt hurt much coming form a 60 Base Attack, and Superpower is, as he said, a one hit wonder, however, the usefulness of Explosion and Selfdestruct is debatable, as I dont see CAP8 to be one of those Pokemons you want to get rid of.

 

[Ash Borer]

focus blast and superpower unallowed, it kills too much. Blissey, rhyperior, ttar, snorlax, etc.

 

[CyzirVisheen]

One last thing before I forget: Please remember to solidify your arguments for or against any of the moves by providing calcs. It's not necessary, but it helps.
Use this!

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Explosion to Unallowed.

If we are even considering Focus Punch then Explosion should be off the table. Explosion solidifies a OHKO on blissey, and a fair number of other pokemon even with it's abysmal Atk stat.

Edit: Sam for Selfdestruct

 

[Coronis]

Max damage for surf max sp.atk+LO on a CBTar is 41.04%. Surf should be allowed.
Max attack LO Focus Punch does 93.39% max to standard Blissey, but its easy to predict FP for allowed.

 

[Shade of Elysia]

Well, I just worked out a long list of damage calcs for Focus Punch. I forgot to include Life Orb or anything like that, so the damage would be higher than normal. This assumes a +nature.

Damage vs. CBTar with 252 Atk Evs - 105.97% - 124.68%
Damage vs. CBTar with 0 Atk Evs - 75.84% - 89.35%
Damage vs. CB Rhyperior with 252 Atk Evs - 47.44% - 56.06%
Damage vs. CB Rhyperior with 0 Atk Evs - 33.42% - 39.89%
Damage vs. WishBliss with 252 Atk Evs - 73.43% - 86.63%
Damage vs. WishBliss with 0 Atk Evs - 52.45% - 61.93%
Damage vs. Curselax with 252 Atk Evs - 52.49% - 62.03%
Damage vs. Curselax with 0 Atk Evs - 37.38% - 44.14%
Damage vs. Sleeptalk Regice with 252 Atk Evs - 47.8% - 56.59%
Damage vs. Sleeptalk Regice with 0 Atk Evs - 34.07% - 40.66%
Damage vs. Wall Steelix with 252 Atk Evs - 33.9% - 40.11%
Damage vs. Wall Steelix with 0 Atk Evs - 24.29% - 28.81%
Damage vs. CB Mamoswine with 252 Atk Evs - 72.58% - 85.87%
Damage vs. CB Mamoswine with 0 Atk Evs - 52.08% - 61.5%
Damage vs. Specs Magnezone with 252 Atk Evs - 78.71% - 92.72%
Damage vs. Specs Magnezone with 0 Atk Evs - 56.06% - 66.31%
Damage vs. Scarf Heatran with 252 Atk Evs - 64.2% - 75.93%
Damage vs. Scarf Heatran with 0 Atk Evs - 45.68% - 54.32%

I'm not sure how you want to interpret these, so use them for either for or against.

 

[Ybbob]

If you're going to make an argument about something, try not to contradict yourself. You saying that Mist Ball/Luster Purge shouldn't be allowed because they're "exclusive", and yet you attack people for using non competitive reasoning to allow them. If they will add something to it's competitive value then we will include it, if it doesn't we won't. Simple.

I said that if people give flavor arguments for things like Tri Attack and yet argue for Mist Ball, they're contradicting themselves. I see no point to giving useless exclusive moves like Mist Ball and Luster Purge for the point of giving them. For Spacial Rend, I agree completely with DK on this one and not is it only a legendary exclusive, but too good to be on CAP8.

Max damage for surf max sp.atk+LO on a CBTar is 41.04%. Surf should be allowed.
Max attack LO Focus Punch does 93.39% max to standard Blissey, but its easy to predict FP for allowed.

Agreed



Here's my preliminary attacking movepool I was thinking off, feel free to discuss it. I used my own categorizations since I wanted to split up the controversial category, and I'm only listing viable competitive moves, not weak and useless moves like Thundershock and stuff like Hyper Beam.

Allowed:
Thunderbolt
Discharge
Thunder
Charge Beam
Zap Cannon
Volt Tackle
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Claw
Outrage
Dragonbreath
Draco Meteor
Shadow Ball
Ancientpower
Ice Beam

Controversial(Should be added):
Flamethrower
Fire Blast
Surf
Hydro Pump
Earthquake
Focus Punch

Controversial(I feel these are unneeded):
Superpower
Hammer Arm
Psychic(?)

Unallowed:
Cross Chop
Close Combat
Explosion/Selfdestruct
Aura Sphere
Focus Blast
Earth Power
Grass Knot
Spacial Rend
Mist Ball/Luster Purge

This is my opinion, but it's heavily influenced by the arguments in this topic. I think these should be the moves that are allowed/unallowed and should be voted on, as well as my personal opinion on the controversial moves.

 

[ungulateman]

Earthquake I personally think should be unallowed as it messes up Heatran (who, in the counter discussion has been put down as a solid counter to CAP8) and can put the hurt on TTar almost as well as Superpower(and it doesn't lower your Attack), while allowing it to beat up Infernape, while they sit there and ineffectually Flare Blitz/Close Combat/etc.

Focus Punch allows CAP8 to catch Ice and Steel-types on the switch in a nasty fashion, OHKOing Weavile and Blissey while smacking Mamoswine silly before they can counterattack with Ice Shard/Earthquake which would otherwise be seen as good counters to CAP8.

ungulateman

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Earthquake I personally think should be unallowed as it messes up Heatran (who, in the counter discussion has been put down as a solid counter to CAP8) and can put the hurt on TTar almost as well as Superpower(and it doesn't lower your Attack), while allowing it to beat up Infernape, while they sit there and ineffectually Flare Blitz/Close Combat/etc.

Heatran is a check, not a counter. He's 2HKO by Thunderbolt (50.46% - 59.75%), dead by HP Ground, hate paraylsis, and wouldn't like Surf/Hydro Pump either. Infernape shouldn't be trying to counter CAP8 in the first place unless you're insane. T-tar can survive an earthquake coming from CAP8 long enough to curbstomp him with his own EQ (88.83% - 105.03%). Earthquake is far less dangerous than a Superpower to the face for our green pal.

Counters:
Rhyperior
Tyranitar
Steelix
Blissey
Snorlax
Regice
Cresselia

Checks:
Dugtrio
Salamence
Latias
Flygon
Heatran
Mamoswine
Hippowdon
Weavile
Swampert

 

[TekkenStorm]

Why are Focus Punch and Superpower still unallowed? I have seen many more people supporting them and very few against them.

Also for reasons already said, Earthquake for allowed too, it isn't broken atall and it helps make a Physical set a little more viable.

 

[zach the great]

Definately put in Surf and Hydro Pump.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Why are Focus Punch and Superpower still unallowed? I have seen many more people supporting them and very few against them.

Also for reasons already said, Earthquake for allowed too, it isn't broken atall and it helps make a Physical set a little more viable.

Earlier on this page:

Controversial:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Lava Plume
Hydro Pump
Surf
Focus Punch
Super Power
Earthquake
Focus Blast

I think Cyberzero is busy, so CyzirVisheen picked up some of his duties.

 

[Veedrock]

Argument against Focus Blast/Aura Sphere:

First, a list of pokemon who should utterly obliterate it given a standard non-boosting set or without a great coverage move:

Counters:
Rhyperior
Tyranitar
Steelix
Blissey
Snorlax
Regice
Cresselia

End argument.

0 Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 82.26% - 97.31% (20.51% to OHKO w/ SR)
252 Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 102.96% - 121.29%
252+ Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 112.67% - 133.15%
 
0 Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior (+ Sandstorm): 54.84% - 65.05%
252 Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior (+Sandstorm): 68.46% - 80.86%
252+ Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior (+ Sandstorm): 75.47% - 88.95%
---
0 vs. 4/0 Tyranitar (+Sandstorm): 74.85% - 88.89% (7.69% to OHKO w/ SR)
252 Vs. 4/0 Tyranitar (+Sandstorm): 92.40% - 108.77% (OHKO w/ SR)
252+ vs. 4/0 Tyrantiar (+Sandstorm): 101.75% - 120.47%
 
0 Vs. 176/0 Tyranitar (+Sandstorm): 66.49% - 78.96%
252 Vs. 176/0 Tyranitar (+Sandstorm): 82.08% - 96.62% (53.85% to OHKO w/ SR)
252+ vs. 176/0 Tyrantiar (+Sandstorm): 90.39% - 107.01% (OHKO w/ SR)
---
0 Vs. 168/220+ Snorlax: 26.24% - 31.01%
252 Vs. 168/220+ Snorlax: 32.60% - 38.57%
252+ Vs. 168/220+ Snorlax: 35.39% - 41.75%
 
0 Vs. 0/252 Snorlax: 30.80% - 36.44%
252 Vs. 0/252 Snorlax: 38.18% - 45.12% (3.81% to 2HKO w/ SR)
252+ Vs. 0/252 Snorlax: 41.21% - 48.59% (70.15% to 2HKO w/ SR)
---
0 Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 44.93% - 52.88% (53.98% to 2HKO w/ SR)
252 Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 55.27% - 65.21%
252+ Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 60.04% - 70.78%
---
0 Vs. 252/4+ Regice: 25.82% - 30.77%
252 Vs. 252/4+ Regice: 31.87% - 37.91%
252+ vs. 252/4+ Regice: 34.62% - 41.21%

I won't even bother with Blissey, we know she can take it. Basically causes a ton of issues for Steelix, Rhyperior and Tyranitar, 3 otherwise solid counters (ignoring possible water moves). Snorlax and Regice don't like it coming off max attack either, especially without reliable recovery. With a Special Attack raising move, it becomes an even bigger issue.

EDIT: Son of a bitch, I forgot Solid Rock on Rhyperior >_> It still hurts though.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I support the moving of Focus Punch and Superpower to Allowed. It's true that hey'll take a hefty chunk out of Blissey and Snorlax, but it's not like the metagame couldn't use a mixed wall-breaker anyway.

Also, is there any mention of Psychic? I'm for putting it in Allowed.

Edit: On second thought, Mist Ball is a Psychic move that will do just fine.

 

[Serpent]

I'm going with Vacuum Wave, IIRC CAP8 has no priority or fighting moves, this fits both without being too powerful. I'd also prefer Surf/Hydro Pump over fire moves. Aqua Tail is in Allowed, so why shouldn't Surf be?

 

[Objection]

Also, is there any mention of Psychic? I'm for putting it in Allowed.

Edit: On second thought, Mist Ball is a Psychic move that will do just fine.

Why not allow Psychic though? It's more powerful than Mist Ball. Unless you're arguing that the higher chance of secondary effect is more useful than the extra base power, or that the extra base power would be gamebreaking, there's no reason to not have Psychic (and indeed, Extrasensory) as Allowed.