CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Deck Knight]

RE: Vacuum Wave:

Unallowed. Every CAP does not need a priority move. Pyroak was the last time we left a CAP without one. We even chucked it onto Stratagem, while already had 130 Base Spe. Furthermore it makes it just too good a revenge killer. SD Lucario? Good luck chuck, especially if you already used Close Combat on something.

Explosion/Selfdestruct:

Unallowed. These simply offer too much power. I can think of little that would want to deal with a Dragon Dance'd Explosion, and I'd much rather be able to support Dragon Dance in non-attacking than vote for Explosion here.

Also since the list seems to be in dispute and people have posted unofficial ones:

Earthquake for allowed:

Earthquake does absolutely laughable damage without both investment and an attack boost. Rhyperior has Solid Rock, Steelix can switch into Metagross Earthquakes, never mind this thing, and CBTyranitar isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO unless you invest Maximum Attack and nature.

 

[dialga_438]

Salamence can counter all its counters, why cant this ??

 

[Umbreon Dan]

RE: Vacuum Wave:

Unallowed. Every CAP does not need a priority move. Pyroak was the last time we left a CAP without one. We even chucked it onto Stratagem, while already had 130 Base Spe. Furthermore it makes it just too good a revenge killer. SD Lucario? Good luck chuck, especially if you already used Close Combat on something.

Swords Dance Lucario almost always run Extremespeed, so that one doesn't apply.

I don't think it would be too powerful if it only revenges Dragon Dance Tyranitar and non-Vacuum Wave Stratagem.

 

[Magmortified]

Swords Dance Lucario almost always run Extremespeed, so that one doesn't apply.

Just to note: If they're using 80 BP ExtremeSpeed they are simultaneously NOT using 180 BP Close Combat.

Personally, I don't think we need to give CAP 8 a priority move to revenge things. I don't even want to encourage that line of thought. We can do without it.

 

[Fuzznip]

Heat Wave should be allowed instead of Flamethrower/Fire Blast, since it's slightly stronger than Flamethrower at the cost of accuracy.

 

[tennisace]

Heat Wave should be allowed, but only because it has little competitive value over Flamethrower/Fire Blast. That extra power isn't worth the accuracy drop, since over time it actually does LESS damage (90 vs 95) than Flamethrower.

 

[Zepar]

Choice Banded Aqua tail will clear the path of Rhyperior, although it is a gimmick, Rhyperior was considered to be a counter.

Surf should be un-allowed, for the reasons of Tyranitar and Rhyperior not really being counters, against things like Choice Specs Surf 2HKOs 252/0 Tyranitar after Stealth rock, aswell as Steelix, Heatran, and Magnezone, all taken down by Timid Specs Surf.

Fire Blast is just as deadly, taking out Max/Max Calm Regice after Stealth rock, almost OHKOing Max/Max Careful Mamoswine, always OHKOing Careful Weavile after Stealth rock, 2HKOing Max/Max Sassy Bronzong, Max/Max Careful Metagross, 2HKOs Max/Max Calm Celebi, and much much more.

If both of theese moves aren't dangerous, I don't know what is.

 

[tennisace]

Choice Banded Aqua tail will clear the path of Rhyperior, although it is a gimmick, Rhyperior was considered to be a counter.

I'll post some more in a second.

Not with 115 hp and 130 def you aren't, even with the 4x (essentially 2.66x) weakness. Rhyperior can Rock Polish and KO you with STAB Earthquake.

 

[Zach]

Although Cap 8 is primarily bulky... I can see this becoming a very potent revenge killer due to it's STABs and SpAtk stat. Much like Scarf Tran.

Cap 8 @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor / Spacial Rend
-Thunderbolt / Thunder
-Overheat
-Filler (Trick?)

Just a thought...

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Surf should be un-allowed, for the reasons of Tyranitar and Rhyperior not really being counters, against things like Choice Specs Surf 2HKOs 252/0 Tyranitar after Stealth rock, aswell as Steelix, Heatran, and Magnezone, all taken down by Timid Specs Surf.

Another reason why Magnezone will never be considered a reliable checks for CAP8, not like it had anything going for it. While Surf seem frightening on CAP8, it appears that CAP8 must wear some Choice Specs in order to ensure those 2HKO/OHKOes which in turns make it more prone to countering. In the worse case scenario we could always suggest Water Pulse or Brine to sub for Surf and Hydro Pump. I mean if you fear Surf/Hydro Pump for their power but want a Water move, you could try those on for sizes as both are weaker than Surf. Specs Brine isn't even 3HKO on T-tar,

Fire Blast is just as deadly, taking out Max/Max Calm Regice after Stealth rock, almost OHKOing Max/Max Careful Mamoswine, always OHKOing Careful Weavile after Stealth rock, 2HKOing Max/Max Sassy Bronzong, Max/Max Careful Metagross, 2HKOs Max/Max Calm Celebi, and much much more.

Who in god's name runs Max/Max Careful Weavile and such and Weavile, Mamoswine shouldn't even be switching into CAP8's attack in the first place.

 

[Ybbob]

Water/Fire doesn't hit it's main counters for reliable 2HKO damage, while Vacumn Wave really only keeps low health DD TTar or other sweepers in check. They're no reason not to have Water/Fire as Surf won't even 2HKO TTar and is only useful over STAB TBolt/Dragon Pulse vs. Rhyperior and Steelix. Same goes for Fire, although it's stronger it only covers Celebi/Scizor which aren't reliable counters anyways and Steelix which isn't used much at all in OU regardless. The main counters, TTar/Blissey/Snorlax and maybe Cress remain as solid hard counters and all the checks will still destroy CAP8 if they are faster.

Edit: Actually, in retrospect and thought, I think that all Fighting Type Attacks save Vacumn Wave should be unallowed, including Focus Punch. Why? Simple reason, HP Fighting. While it won't do much vs. Blissey/Snorlax, it will 2HKO most TTar and we can't stop it from being allowed in the moveset, so we should limit it's ability to take out other counters as well. I still think water/fire should be allowed, as while they hit a wide range, they really only hit a couple of the resists for higher damage then the two STABs. Maybe limit fire to Overheat only, but it should be there as an option. Also, I'm thinking ahead here, but all SAtk increasing moves, primarily Calm Mind(Nasty Plot shouldn't make it regardless) should be unallowed, as if CAP8 has wide type coverage, then a +1 super effective Surf/Fire Blast or STAB TBolt/Dragon Pulse is just too powerful and with the switch-ins that CAP8 will force, it gives too much power. DD/SD should be fine considering CAP8's laughable attack score.

 

[Zepar]

Tennis,
360 Atk vs 394 Def & 434 HP (90 Base Power): 180 - 213 (41.47% - 49.08%)

| Rhyperior | Nature | Adamant | 56.2 |
| Rhyperior | Nature | Jolly | 31.2 |
| Rhyperior | Nature | Lonely | 12.5 |

| Rhyperior | Nature | Impish | 13.7 |

Who in god's name runs Max/Max Careful Weavile and such and Weavile, Mamoswine shouldn't even be switching into CAP8's attack in the first place.

Mamoswine and Weavile were mentioned as cap8 checks. The point is Weavile is ALWAYS KOd without a berry.

Another reason why Magnezone This should be obvious... seeing resistances to its STABS will never be considered a reliable checks for CAP8, not like it had anything going for it. While Surf seem frightening on CAP8, it appears that CAP8 must wear some Choice Specs in order to ensure those Well considering Choice specs is common enough on the other dragons... 2HKO/OHKOes which in turns make it more prone to countering. In the worse case scenario we could always suggest Water Pulse or Brine to sub for Surf and Hydro Pump. Rhyperior.. I mean if you fear Surf/Hydro Pump for their power but want a Water move, you could try those on for sizes as both are weaker than Surf. Specs Brine isn't even 3HKO on T-tar,

 

[CyzirVisheen]

Okay, as of now, the following moves are allowed, unallowed and controversial:

Allowed:
Zap Cannon
Discharge
Dragonbreath
Thunderbolt
Dragon Pulse
Charge Beam
Aqua Tail
Draco Meteor
Volt Tackle
AncientPower
Hyper Beam
Signal Beam
Shadow Ball
Outrage
Mist Ball
Luster Purge
Bug Buzz

Controversial:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Lava Plume
Heat Wave
Overheat
Hydro Pump
Surf
Focus Punch
Super Power
Earthquake
Vacuum Wave

Unallowed:
Aura Sphere
Focus Blast
Earth Power
Close Combat
Hammer Arm
Cross Chop
Grass Knot
Spacial Rend
Selfdestruct
Explosion

The poll for the controversial attacks will be opened shortly. However this thread will stay open to continue discussion during the poll.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Mamoswine and Weavile were mentioned as cap8 checks. The point is Weavile is ALWAYS KOd without a berry.

And that's make a huge different how? Choice Spec Dragon Pulse always kills Weavile and Mamoswine after Stealth Rock is added. Weavile is frail and can only come in on revenge, same goes for Mamo. The others have their problems as well, it really depends on what moves it gains.

This should be obvious... seeing resistances to its STABS

CAP8 also resist Zone's stab moves and could use them to come into it with ease. CAP8 is faster than Magnezone which would mean that in a one-on-one battle with it, it would win out every time. If it get's a fighting and/or fire move, Maggy has another problem to think about. Heck Magnezone isn't even on the checks and counter list for the most part.

Counters:
Rhyperior
Tyranitar
Steelix
Blissey
Snorlax
Regice
Cresselia

Checks:
Dugtrio
Salamence
Latias
Flygon
Heatran
Mamoswine
Hippowdon
Weavile
Swampert

Rhyperior..

Considering that Water Pulse/Brine can't 2HKO T-tar and that you still have Blissey, Snorlax, and the other counters can take him/her on I don't see how losing Rhy is awful.

 

[Ybbob]

Even Surf won't 2HKO TTar

 

[DougJustDoug]

I have updated the OP with the list posted by Cyzir, just for completeness.