CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 11a (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

[X-Act]

There is already a way to increase this Pokemon's SpA... Charge Beam. It was not voted against in the other poll. And it can be Technician'd too. So, hmm... I don't know about Calm Mind now.

 

[Vividsketch]

This is where I'd like to repeat my proposal to omit the base 95+ elemental beam moves from Rockmon's move pool. Supply it with the slightly lower base power moves to work with instead (Discharge , Lave Plume, Energy Ball, Signal Beam ect..). This does two things. Gives Technician more merit once again, as a power vs versatility compromise, as I've express in the past. And also makes a Calm Mind set not quite so overwhelming in raw power, with out taking away type coverage.

Vividsketch, we already decided about elemental beams, and we decided to include them. If you think that CM + elemental beams would be broken - which is actually true - then vote against Calm Mind. But dont bash more with the elemental beams. You have already expressed your opinion in the past thread. Most people has proven to disagree with you. End of the story.

Actually, it's my understanding that the Elemental Beams in fact haven't been decided on at all!! The have only made it to the next Poll. Their inclusion in Rockmon's move set is not nearly certain yet.

I have an opinion, and it's not one that is unfounded either, so I will continue to express it while there is still chance and time for things to been determined or changed. Do NOT tell me what to vote for or how to conduct myself when I am not doing it in an untimely or unseemly manner.

My reasons and conditions for the inclusion of Calm Mind are relatively clear and reasonable. It is NOT the "End of the story".

 

[zarator]

Actually, it's my understanding that the Elemental Beams in fact haven't been decided on at all!! The have only made it to the next Poll. Their inclusion in Rockmon's move set is not nearly certain yet.

I have an opinion, and it's not one that is unfounded either, so I will continue to express it while there is still chance and time for things to been determined or changed. Do NOT tell me what to vote for or how to conduct myself when I am not doing it in an untimely or unseemly manner.

My reasons and conditions for the inclusion of Calm Mind are relatively clear and reasonable. It is NOT the "End of the story".

I will quote another answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug
No matter what custom move "wins" -- it does not mean it will automatically be in the final movepool. Movepool creators will pick and choose the moves that create a cohesive movepool, and THAT is what will be voted on. If movepool creators do not like the custom move, or they don't think it fits with the rest of the moves in their movepool -- then they are not obligated to include it.

This also goes for any of the moves in the previous attack poll. Just be aware that what you do and don't include will turn some people off.

As DJD said, it's not granted a move will be in the final movepool if it has approved. But, as tennis specified, if you exclude a move - and you are actually excluding 3 - which the majority of people have voted for you will only find yourself not supported by most people - just the same people who voted for the Elemental Beams.

Going against the majority for the sake of the only Calm Mind, whereas it is not even sure that it will meet the favour of the community - of at least half of the community - just sound pretty silly to me. Dont think you can convince people that Elemental Beams are unbalanced without Calm Mind: arguments in favour of them have already been exposed and you would find only support along most Technician fanatics who fear their idol ability being overshadowed if it not keeps the most powerful move for EVERY type

 

[Vividsketch]

I will quote another answer

Originally Posted by Fat DougJustDoug
No matter what custom move "wins" -- it does not mean it will automatically be in the final movepool. Movepool creators will pick and choose the moves that create a cohesive movepool, and THAT is what will be voted on. If movepool creators do not like the custom move, or they don't think it fits with the rest of the moves in their movepool -- then they are not obligated to include it.

This also goes for any of the moves in the previous attack poll. Just be aware that what you do and don't include will turn some people off.

As DJD said, it's not granted a move will be in the final movepool if it has approved. But, as tennis specified, if you exclude a move - and you are actually excluding 3 - which the majority of people have voted for you will only find yourself not supported by most people - just the same people who voted for the Elemental Beams.

Actually it's more then 3, since I specified 95+ such as Heat Wave as well for example. But that's beside the point. The point is, I do not want the elemental beams on Rockmon. So why would I ever vote to have them on.? Just because my opinion is the minorities does not mean that I'm going to feel any different about it or want to change my mind. My opinion is just as valid as those of the majority. If every body felt the same way and had the same ideas then the would be no need or point to having polls or discussion at ALL. I'm not afraid of a little opposition. I'm sorry if you are.

Going against the majority for the sake of the only Calm Mind, whereas it is not even sure that it will meet the favour of the community - of at least half of the community - just sound pretty silly to me. Dont think you can convince people that Elemental Beams are unbalanced without Calm Mind: arguments in favour of them have already been exposed and you would find only support along most Technician fanatics who fear their idol ability being overshadowed if it not keeps the most powerful move for EVERY type

You don't even have your facts straight. I think the Elemental Beams are unbalanced WITH Calm Mind. I want want either Calm Mind OR Beams. Not both. In fact I'm still not even certain of Calm Mind with out the Beams. And as for those "Technician fanatics" (and there are a lot of them), be careful to be so quick to discredit them. Again simply because they are a minority doesn't inherently make them wrong. Just because their views do not match your does not mean they are irrelevant.

I'm not here to be sheep. I'm here to bring something different and another point of view to be considered with the intention of the best possible result. If I'm only going to rehash the same crap as every body else, there is little point.

Get back to me when you have some thing relevant to say specifically in terms of viable Moves for Rockmon. Nothing else. Let's get back on topic.

 

[zarator]

Let's get back on topic.

I agree. So, after a little thought, i realized that CM + Sub is not definitely broken, once you think to that ingame.
Lets make an example.
I switch CAP5 on something which is almost surely going to switch out. Wow, im in, now i can set up.
Well, how can I start? I could either Substitute or Calm Mind. If I use Sub, then anything bulky such as Suicune can phaze me out (premise: you will almost need to run Rock/fire or Rock/Ground, dont even think this thing has enough power to run Fire/Electric without STAB). If i lack a Ground Move, Heatran can sponge my attacks and backfire with Flash Cannon. If i lack a Fire move, Bronzong will do pretty much the same thing with Gyro Ball. In a way or the other im forced either to continously put and lose istantly a Sub or switch out. I would not even mention Calm Mind: BPers would laugh at me all day.
You could try to fire an attack first to catch off guard people's counters, but it definitely is not a good idea, because it will be evident which set you have (no Life Orb and too weak attacks to suspect a Specs will just scream Leftovers and therefore CM + Sub set).

A more interesting choice could be running only Calm Mind with Babiri Berry and Rock/Fire/Grass (It needs Giga Drain, and i'll explain why). It would work like this: first, you Calm Mind. If a BP user comes out, you simply kill him leaving Babiri Berry ward you against said BP. Now, hoping that the opponent do not have another BPer, you are pretty much set up for sweep, with a CM under your belt to ward you from weak Special Attacks. The HPs left after a hit from BP will still be few, but, refueled by Giga Drain, you will be able to stand pretty much everything else (keep in mind that most other counters are at least neutral to Giga Drain and almost always will be Special Attackers, so you will going to hit them quite hard while not KOed thanks to an excellent 399 SPdef).

I cant say if this is overpowered (If a CB Tyranitar comes out after you killed the BPer you are pretty much doomed), but it would certainly be a good set to run

 

[Pombo]

No Nasty Plot and Hypnosis, only.


This is still a discussion, but im going to post this anyway.

Ive had an idea, and will post it all the polls of cap. When selecting pokemon moves, like this:
Ancient Power
Ominous Wind
Silver Wind

Why dont we make a poll of multiple choice, with 4 options:
1-Counter
2-AP
3-OW
4-SW

Counter would be a obligatory vote. If i want to choose only AP, i would select both AP and counter.

Lets say we got 100 counter points (so 100 people voted)
So every move that have more than 50 moves should be used (more than 50%)

Of course everyone would need to respect this and vote also for "counter", but this is a forum where only people who want to discuss vote (i hope and think so)

It would save much work from counting 10 pages of 16 moves (Example)

Im sorry if this idea already exists, or if my multiple posting is unallowed.

Thanks

 

[tennisace]

No Nasty Plot and Hypnosis, only.


This is still a discussion, but im going to post this anyway.

Ive had an idea, and will post it all the polls of cap. When selecting pokemon moves, like this:
Ancient Power
Ominous Wind
Silver Wind

Why dont we make a poll of multiple choice, with 4 options:
1-Counter
2-AP
3-OW
4-SW

Counter would be a obligatory vote. If i want to choose only AP, i would select both AP and counter.

Lets say we got 100 counter points (so 100 people voted)
So every move that have more than 50 moves should be used (more than 50%)

Of course everyone would need to respect this and vote also for "counter", but this is a forum where only people who want to discuss vote (i hope and think so)

It would save much work from counting 10 pages of 16 moves (Example)

Im sorry if this idea already exists, or if my multiple posting is unallowed.

Thanks

I got your pm, and I saw you posted this in a bunch of places. Personally, its easy enough just to count the bold polls, because there are sometimes more than 10 options. Also, the "counter" option is useless really. The polls keep track of the number of votes for you, and posts are numbered. Its a nice idea, but not really necessary.

 

[Darkflagrance]

To know that Calm Mind is not broken, one has to look no farther than Azelf.

Azelf gets Calm Mind, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Levitate. Its Special is 125 and its speed is 115. Yet, one sees very few Sub-Calm Mind Azelfs - Sub and Calm Mind eat up two of its moveslots, and without STAB even the powered-up moves are not enough to sweep with competitively. While Nasty Plot Azelf is arguably better than a Calm Mind Azelf, even that is not considered too broken for the metagame; therefore, by extension, how can a Calm Mind Rockmon be broken even with all of the 95 bp specials?

 

[Infiltrator]

Although...

Light Screen
Reflect
SR
Explosion

would be interesting, and frightening. Perhaps the Suicide Lead strategy could be negated by removing the screens, but those are also TM moves.

Why don't we give it Rapid Spin and Knock Off too?

Please not another Suicide lead.

 

[tennisace]

Please not another Suicide lead.

Why? What is so bad about this having the option of being a suicide lead. Personally, I think it would be a waste of its potential to use it like that, and I'd use it for a Skymin like clean-up. Really, I don't see the problem with it getting Taunt, Stealth Rock, Explosion, Trick, or U-turn. Most likely it would be a secondary option over the sweeper sets. Its also not overpowering in any way.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

Seconded on the part of not using it's potential if it goes kamikaze.

 

[zarator]

Actually, most traditional suicide leads are like that because they failed as sweepers (Azelf, Aero and Deoxys have proven not to be as threatening as, for example, SD Extremespeed Lucario)... if CAP5 will prove to be a competent sweeper it will never be mainly a suicide lead

About this, Tennis is right

 

[Darkflagrance]

Actually, most traditional suicide leads are like that because they failed as sweepers (Azelf, Aero and Deoxys have proven not to be as threatening as, for example, SD Extremespeed Lucario)... if CAP5 will prove to be a competent sweeper it will never be mainly a suicide lead

About this, Tennis is right

Thus, the question is: have we done enough to make CAP 5 relevant? And if not, and CAP 5 fails, do we leave our poor creation to suffer the ignobility of irrelevance to the metagame, or allow it the dubious honor of becoming a suicide lead?

 

[pit-fall]

I support:

Calm Mind
Rock Polish
Stealth Rock
Recover

I would also like to suggest and back the idea of Spikes on this thing, particularly if it decides to go bulky, and, in tandem with its entry hazards, Whirlwind.

 

[tennisace]

Thus, the question is: have we done enough to make CAP 5 relevant? And if not, and CAP 5 fails, do we leave our poor creation to suffer the ignobility of irrelevance to the metagame, or allow it the dubious honor of becoming a suicide lead?

I got a chuckle from that one. One of the best offensive types in the game, two amazing abilities, excellent stats, and a movepool that looks like it could rival Deoxys and Gengar. Yep, BL for sure.

Edit: Wtf Recover? Haha no. That would be broken as fuck.

Edit2: Ending this in a day or so.

 

[Vividsketch]

To know that Calm Mind is not broken, one has to look no farther than Azelf.

Azelf gets Calm Mind, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Levitate. Its Special is 125 and its speed is 115. Yet, one sees very few Sub-Calm Mind Azelfs - Sub and Calm Mind eat up two of its moveslots, and without STAB even the powered-up moves are not enough to sweep with competitively. While Nasty Plot Azelf is arguably better than a Calm Mind Azelf, even that is not considered too broken for the metagame; therefore, by extension, how can a Calm Mind Rockmon be broken even with all of the 95 bp specials?

RockMon has better Speed, better Defenses, similar Sp.Att, no Pursuit weakness, Sandstorm resistence, better STAB and most likely better type coverage. A lot of reasons why Calm Mind might push RockMoN over the edge were it hasn't for Azelf.

I still think Calm Mind can be viable and not broken on Rockmon, but I still maintain we should peg back it's raw power if it does carry Calm Mind.

Edit: Wtf Recover? Haha no. That would be broken as fuck.

I've noticed you are often very quick to dismiss things like this (in what might be perceived as a rather patronizing fashion), with out actually backing it up with any cause or reason at all. The sort I think you'd often correct another member for posting, as it does not really contribute anything useful to the discussion at all.

I'm not even saying you are wrong. In fact I'm going to with hold my own thoughts on Recover for the moment. But I would actually like to hear what you reasons for this conclusion are, rather then just "wtf, Haha, broken".

 

[Drybones]

Calm Mind: I don't love the sound of this. CM + sub (which of course it will learn) Rockmon sure would be hard to counter with anything outside of a stab bullet punch.

Metal Sound: On the other hand, I think metal sound would be a viable alternative that would force some switches and SR dmg. Inferior to CM sure, but if I had my way I'd give this thing a nasty movepool and few buffing options.

Stealth Rock: This thing is made of stealth rocks. Yeah we have enough suicide leads, but for my next point...

Taunt: Don't give it taunt and we wouldn't see many suicide rockmons. It would differentiate it from Aero and from a flavor standpoint it's not remotely anthropomorphic or animal-like, unlike all the other taunters.

Knock Off: I just like this move and I think it would be a good alternative to taunt.

 

[Deck Knight]

To know that Calm Mind is not broken, one has to look no farther than Azelf.

Azelf gets Calm Mind, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Levitate. Its Special is 125 and its speed is 115. Yet, one sees very few Sub-Calm Mind Azelfs - Sub and Calm Mind eat up two of its moveslots, and without STAB even the powered-up moves are not enough to sweep with competitively. While Nasty Plot Azelf is arguably better than a Calm Mind Azelf, even that is not considered too broken for the metagame; therefore, by extension, how can a Calm Mind Rockmon be broken even with all of the 95 bp specials?

Azelf is at least a better comparison than Alakazam, truth be told.

Still, the differences are several. First and foremost being that Rockmon has superior defenses, and gets a non-scaled 1.5x boost. So what ends up happening with Calm Mind + Sandstorm is that it doesn't get say, a 2x boost others would, making its stat go from 176 to 352, but instead it goes from 176 to 396.

Except it also gets an SA boost. So basically speaking, it ends up with specialized Dusknoir-level special defense and 500+ SA, and it didn't have to invest a single EV (in defenses, anyway).

It also has a better primary STAB, and isn't Pursuit bait.

Furthermore, Azelf not being Uber while possessing it does not mean that Calm Mind is not unbalancing. Azelf can't use Special Rock or Ground attacks, for instance, and if it uses Life Orb it takes 16% damage during Sandstorm with each attack, whereas with its Sandstorm immunity, Rockmon can continue its assault without worrying about residual damage. It can hit most of the things on a Hail Team for SE damage, at least with the moves we've approved on it.

 

[zarator]

Azelf is at least a better comparison than Alakazam, truth be told.

Still, the differences are several. First and foremost being that Rockmon has superior defenses, and gets a non-scaled 1.5x boost. So what ends up happening with Calm Mind + Sandstorm is that it doesn't get say, a 2x boost others would, making its stat go from 176 to 352, but instead it goes from 176 to 396.

Except it also gets an SA boost. So basically speaking, it ends up with specialized Dusknoir-level special defense and 500+ SA, and it didn't have to invest a single EV (in defenses, anyway).

It also has a better primary STAB, and isn't Pursuit bait.

Furthermore, Azelf not being Uber while possessing it does not mean that Calm Mind is not unbalancing. Azelf can't use Special Rock or Ground attacks, for instance, and if it uses Life Orb it takes 16% damage during Sandstorm with each attack, whereas with its Sandstorm immunity, Rockmon can continue its assault without worrying about residual damage. It can hit most of the things on a Hail Team for SE damage, at least with the moves we've approved on it

Yes, it might seem overpowering on paper, but remember that, with only 2 moves, you cant cover everything, either if you choose Rock/Ground or Rock/Fire there will be always a pokemon (either Swampert or Bronzong) who can reliably wall you by resisting the combination. And, without Fire, any BPer can come even of Sub if you dont have at least 3 CM or so and Kill you with no remorse.

 

[Vividsketch]

Yes, it might seem overpowering on paper, but remember that, with only 2 moves, you cant cover everything, either if you choose Rock/Ground or Rock/Fire there will be always a pokemon (either Swampert or Bronzong) who can reliably wall you by resisting the combination. And, without Fire, any BPer can come even of Sub if you dont have at least 3 CM or so and Kill you with no remorse.

This is still assuming a Calm Mind set must run Substitute. Which it doesn't.

We have already discussed in the past how even just a simply all out attack set could be dangerous, even with out any stat up moves. Then then add a decisive Calm Mind played at an opportune moment and RockMon just got a lot scarier, lol. I can imagine running three moves with Life Orb and holding Calm Mind back till later game for instance. I think that has greater potential to be devastating really.

 

[zarator]

This is still assuming a Calm Mind set must run Substitute. Which it doesn't.

We have already discussed in the past how even just a simply all out attack set could be dangerous, even with out any stat up moves. Then then add a decisive Calm Mind played at an opportune moment and RockMon just got a lot scarier, lol. I can imagine running three moves with Life Orb and holding Calm Mind back till later game for instance. I think that has greater potential to be devastating really.

I hate when people ignore my posts -.-
Quoting myself:

I agree. So, after a little thought, i realized that CM + Sub is not definitely broken, once you think to that ingame.
Lets make an example.
I switch CAP5 on something which is almost surely going to switch out. Wow, im in, now i can set up.
Well, how can I start? I could either Substitute or Calm Mind. If I use Sub, then anything bulky such as Suicune can phaze me out (premise: you will almost need to run Rock/fire or Rock/Ground, dont even think this thing has enough power to run Fire/Electric without STAB). If i lack a Ground Move, Heatran can sponge my attacks and backfire with Flash Cannon. If i lack a Fire move, Bronzong will do pretty much the same thing with Gyro Ball. In a way or the other im forced either to continously put and lose istantly a Sub or switch out. I would not even mention Calm Mind: BPers would laugh at me all day.
You could try to fire an attack first to catch off guard people's counters, but it definitely is not a good idea, because it will be evident which set you have (no Life Orb and too weak attacks to suspect a Specs will just scream Leftovers and therefore CM + Sub set).

A more interesting choice could be running only Calm Mind with Babiri Berry and Rock/Fire/Grass (It needs Giga Drain, and i'll explain why). It would work like this: first, you Calm Mind. If a BP user comes out, you simply kill him leaving Babiri Berry ward you against said BP. Now, hoping that the opponent do not have another BPer, you are pretty much set up for sweep, with a CM under your belt to ward you from weak Special Attacks. The HPs left after a hit from BP will still be few, but, refueled by Giga Drain, you will be able to stand pretty much everything else (keep in mind that most other counters are at least neutral to Giga Drain and almost always will be Special Attackers, so you will going to hit them quite hard while not KOed thanks to an excellent 399 SPdef).

I cant say if this is overpowered (If a CB Tyranitar comes out after you killed the BPer you are pretty much doomed), but it would certainly be a good set to run

As you can see, I already realized that a CM + 3 attacks set is the best thing, so dont come now claiming you have thought of such a great idea which I'd have neglected, because, as i described, a little thought outline very simply how the CM only set is by far the most effective.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Apparently tennisace must be busy with real life, and can't keep the project moving right now. This thread has completely run it's course and we need to get moving on the polls. I'm making the next poll now. I've gone through the thread, compared notes with Darkie, and compiled the following results:

Allowed
Rock Polish
Disable
Swords Dance​

These moves were pretty much unopposed in the discussion.

Not Allowed
Nasty Plot
Recover
Hypnosis
Baton Pass
Encore
Wish​

These moves were suggested during the thread. But they received little to no support, and some marked opposition.

Controversial
Stealth Rock
Calm Mind
Magnet Rise
Taunt
Metal Sound
U-Turn
Trick
Knock Off
​

These moves were debated throughout the discussion, and will be voted in the next poll.


Any competitive support move not mentioned above is NOT ALLOWED.
Any non-competitive support move not mentioned above is ALLOWED.
I did not address Protect and Substitute, since every pokemon gets them according to the Movepool Creation Guide.

 

[X-Act]

What about Thunder Wave?

Is it classified as a competitive support move for this Pokemon, and hence it's not allowed, or is it classified as a non-competitive support move for this Pokemon, and hence it's allowed?