CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 11a (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

[-Zer0-]

Current opinions

No
Stealth rock (not becoming a suicide lead)
Nasty plot (nononononono)

Yes
Taunt (it can do something as a lead)
Rock Polish (can't see why to use it, outpseed deoxys?)
Calm mind (Zam gets it. this guy can take it. However if brimstone turns into its new move, definitely not.

 

[X-Act]

If people have problems with this guy becoming a suicide lead, then why did you vote for this Pokemon to possibly get Explosion? It's not like Explosion is learned by every Rock Pokemon in the game... unlike Stealth Rock, which IS.

 

[Mekkah]

What X-Act said. Plus, what's wrong if people use this thing as a suicide lead against you? Prevents it from doing anything else in the match. Take advantage and sweep with your own Rockmon.

 

[Goodbar]

Hmm after thinking it over I might be in favor of Calm Mind, just because I'm that intrigued... Rock/Fire is only resisted by swampert in OU as far as I know, but yea, I just think sub/mind might be an effective set even if this thing only gets power gem (lol), but I don't think it'll be quite broken either...who knows

 

[beej]

If people have problems with this guy becoming a suicide lead, then why did you vote for this Pokemon to possibly get Explosion? It's not like Explosion is learned by every Rock Pokemon in the game... unlike Stealth Rock, which IS.

Explosion really isn't mandatory for suicide leads. Deoxys-E and Aerodactyl are two very common and notable examples of suicide leads that do not use Explosion. On the other hand, it's basically a necessity for a suicide lead to get Stealth Rock. Without SR, I don't see why Rockmon would be used for this task and not Aero/Azelf/etc.

I really don't want Rockmon to basically be used for this purpose. It might not, but I have a very great feeling that it will be. Aerodactyl and Azelf, two pokes that have many viable options available to them, are almost exclusively used as suicide leads today, so why wouldn't the same happen to Rockmon?

 

[Cartoons!]

I'd very much like to see this guy get Stealth Rock, however, if that were the case, please leave Taunt off the movepool. I am for Explosion, but I can see how some people would not want to see this thing's suicidal lead efficiency potentially overshadow its special sweeping capabilities.

As an alternative for dealing with special walls, I'd like to suggest Swords Dance. There is NOT a single Pokemon in the game with sharp edges that can't learn SD. It's even in the movepools of Pokemon with significantly higher Special Attack stats like Tentacruel, Sunflora, and Empoleon.

Numbers compiled by calculating Omastar (60 base attack and +2 attack stage) using Stone Edge versus Bold Blissey (252 def evs):

Positive with 252 evs: 61.14% - 71.89%
Neutral with 164 evs: 50.23% - 59.14%
Negative with 0 evs: 35.79% - 42.09%

Even if you're running a Modest or Timid set with 0 attack investment, if you SD on the switch, Blissey won't be able to ko with Seismic Toss before you 3hko it with Stone Edge (Wish/Protect just buys you more time to SD).

Granted a mixed set like that probably would not be very popular, but I think it's important to give the player the choice. Again, there is no Pokemon with blades that doesn't learn Swords Dance, so I hope we can find the place to include it on the list.

 

[zarator]

I support Cartoons. Any sweeper should have a surprise or 2 - not simply another good set, but something that can completely catch people offguard. A novel-but-not-so-gimmick SD set could be quite interesting to see in play, even if bulky waters, who are a good switch in on the special set, are an even better switch on the physical one, as well as many other counters not named blissey, so I think it will turn into a novelty. But there's no reason why we should leave it out, also because a basical SD/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Explosion (SD Explosion... lol) does not take any space in the movepool as they are all TMs...

 

[the_artic_one]

Stealth Rock absolutely must be on this pokemon. I'm stunned that so many people are advocating NOT including it. I understand that many people hate suicide leads, but Stealth Rock is not remotely overpowered on this pokemon. If you want to spend an incredibly valuable moveslot on this frail pokemon, just so you can put rocks up -- so be it.

And the pokemon is Rock type. Rock types get Stealth Rock. "Break the Mold" or not -- Rock types get Stealth Rock. I will acknowledge that there can be exceptional cases to every supposed "rule" in pokemon. But, the overwhelming evidence in the game supports the assertion that Rock types get Stealth Rock.

The thing is, Latino came up with this concept because people insisted that fidgit had to have SR because all ground types do.

 

[TAY]

I'm not really sure why everyone is so worried about this becoming a suicide lead. I suppose it will replace Aerodactyl in that respect, but there is absolutely no way in hell this thing is taking the places of either Azelf or Deoxys-E.

Its Explosion when using Focus Sash is pretty pitiful, especially when compared with Azelf's 115 base Attack; and obviously it has a slower taunt and worse defenses than Deoxys-E. It also has worse typing than both of them. So yes, it might be used as a suicide lead, but you can take my word that using this guy as a lead will not change the metagame at all. The sweeper sets will be used a whole lot more frequently.

EDIT: Doesn't get screens either.

 

[-Zer0-]

I'm not really sure why everyone is so worried about this becoming a suicide lead. I suppose it will replace Aerodactyl in that respect, but there is absolutely no way in hell this thing is taking the places of either Azelf or Deoxys-E.

Its Explosion when using Focus Sash is pretty pitiful, especially when compared with Azelf's 115 base Attack; and obviously it has a slower taunt and worse defenses than Deoxys-E. It also has worse typing than both of them. So yes, it might be used as a suicide lead, but you can take my word that using this guy as a lead will not change the metagame at all. The sweeper sets will be used a whole lot more frequently.

You've changed my mind, great points.

 

[tennisace]

No matter what custom move "wins" -- it does not mean it will automatically be in the final movepool. Movepool creators will pick and choose the moves that create a cohesive movepool, and THAT is what will be voted on. If movepool creators do not like the custom move, or they don't think it fits with the rest of the moves in their movepool -- then they are not obligated to include it.

This also goes for any of the moves in the previous attack poll. Just be aware that what you do and don't include will turn some people off.

 

[Petope]

Disable - It would then be the fastest Disabler in the game (tied to Mewtwo but hes Uber). Switch in to something that will switch out, on the switch make a Sub (or attack if u use protect instead) and wait for opponent to attack with its SE attack and then use Disable.

Sandstorm - It would probobly have no use as we alredy have Ttar and Hippo, but about all rocks gets it.

Motsly filler and Gimmic moves but could get useage.

Yes to Nasty plot or Calm Mind (not both)

 

[Recoil]

For a bit of fun (probably not), we could give it Defense Curl (well it's probably going to get it anyway) so it can cause a lot of pain together with Rollout and his Technician.
Certainly not a lot, but could be used to, erm, do something once Scizor and Metagross and Lucario and those Steel guys are out.

On the useful side, I think Thunder Wave (duh) and Hypnosis would make sense. TWave because it has this magnetic feel, and together with its speed could annoy someone. I think. Hypnosis because it being a Special based guy with its eyes and Idontknow and this speed, even with the move's lower accuracy in Platinum, could be even more annoying. It's also faster than Gengar, right?
I also vote in Calm Mind (why not? would help it to do something once the Quick Attackers are out and fits perfectly its appearance) and Magic Coat (fits style, surprise etc.)

 

[DDRMaster]

@ Recoil I think you're the only one who wants to give this Hypnosis. We're not making the next Darkrai.

 

[tennisace]

Agreeing with the no Hypnosis. That would just bring it from powerful to completely overpowered.

 

[Accipender]

No Nasty Plot, please. The controversy surrounding Tail Glow Syclant was plenty, and this has better special sweeping stats and just as good an attack pool. I'd rather have Charge Beam or even Calm Mind for a stat boosting move.

Part of me kinda likes the idea of super-fast Rock Polish pass, but AP hax passing gives me pause, though I won't outright oppose it just yet.

Trick sounds like a good use of that high speed stat, I'll support that.

Im sure that we could find a way around it, like having two different egg moves that come from different pokes (like tail glow vs Earth Power in Syclant)

 

[tennisace]

Im sure that we could find a way around it, like having two different egg moves that come from different pokes (like tail glow vs Earth Power in Syclant)

This was voted genderless, ergo, no egg moves or illegal combinations.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Disable - It would then be the fastest Disabler in the game (tied to Mewtwo but hes Uber). Switch in to something that will switch out, on the switch make a Sub (or attack if u use protect instead) and wait for opponent to attack with its SE attack and then use Disable.

Great suggestion. Not overpowered at all. This is the kind of gimmicky stuff I love to try in battles!

 

[Hyra]

Disable and Levitate sounds cool, though I'd doubt they'd continue to use a Ground move against you. Maybe switch in on Tran and disable w/e its using leaving it with Earth Power. Same for Lucario, switch in after a Close Combat, use Disable. Actually, this could do that to a lot of set-up sweepers.

Also, I'm torn on Calm Mind and Taunt. Taunt I don't like because it gives it all the moves it needs to take Aero's spot as a suicide lead (which isn't breaking any molds at all), but it also allows it to get around Blissey and other walls. Calm Mind makes this thing a less Bulky, more Powerful CMKou with different type coverage (I don't think you could choose a better pair between QuakeSlide and BoltBeam). I guess someone will have to persuade me.

 

[Accipender]

Great suggestion. Not overpowered at all. This is the kind of gimmicky stuff I love to try in battles!

Encore as well perhaps?

Also, sorry TennisAce, I forgot he was genderless...

 

[Darkflagrance]

Just allow Stealth Rock here, for this stage. I'm sure that some diehard Stealth Rock hater will make a move pool that throws out Stealth Rock, and then you all can vote for it.

 

[Drakhun]

How about Growth as a stat up move? That would give rockmon a way to stat up without the insanity of Nasty Plot or the potential defensive absurdity of SS+passable Sdef + boosts? It also is reasonably flavorful, as rockmon is rather crystalline and crystals 'grow'.

 

[Vividsketch]

My comments on a few of the more controversial and spoken of options so far.


Calm Mind: Yes.... Maybe. It's function on Rockmon has been likened to Alakazam which has been proven already not to be broken. How ever, Alakazam's limitation have also been mentioned in this thread it terms of it's defensive weakness and flaws even when compared to Rockmons. But the most notable difference I feel is not defensive capabilities, or even offensive, but Type Coverage capabilities.

Alakazam has really only been given Psychic, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball/Grass Knot and 70 base Hidden powers to work with. Even in Zam's Advance days it had the Elemental Punches but still only ran at base 75. Rockmon however is likely to be granted a rather near unparalleled type coverage move pool. This is where my concerns really start.

This is where I'd like to repeat my proposal to omit the base 95+ elemental beam moves from Rockmon's move pool. Supply it with the slightly lower base power moves to work with instead (Discharge , Lave Plume, Energy Ball, Signal Beam ect..). This does two things. Gives Technician more merit once again, as a power vs versatility compromise, as I've express in the past. And also makes a Calm Mind set not quite so overwhelming in raw power, with out taking away type coverage.

Alakazam is high BL. But if we are not careful we might push Rockmon from OU or High OU to Low Uber.

Nasty Plot: No. It was scary enough when we learnt of Azelf with this capability. Fortunately it has proven manageable. Let's not press our luck with Rockmon.

Metal Sound/Fake Tears: No....Maybe. Not nearly as bad as Nasty Plot though. The fastest and hardest hitting users of these are Joltoen, Espeon and Zapdos. But all lack type coverage. Rockmon will not. This may force way to many switches. Accumulating a lot of passive damage along the way, and slapping on a Life Orb, we may still see a world of pain....

Taunt: No This move is the deal breaker. When it come to suicide leads or just making it that much harder to counter in general, this is the move that makes the difference. Give Rockmon, Substitute, Snatch, Mirror Coat or any other of it's friends... just not Taunt.

Stealth Rock: Yes. I'd even support Spikes. It's not Stealth Rock that breaks Rockmon as a superior suicide lead, it's Taunt, as said above.

Hypnosis: NO!! Oh God no.

Baton Pass: No. Could well be broken for several reasons. Leave this to other mons for goodness sake.

Trick/Encore: No. Could be majorly cool for sure, but I'm disliking putting Zam completely out of a job more and more.

Magnet Rise: Yes. Come on guys, this make perfect sense. Don't be narrow.

Almost anything else at this point I think is perfectly viable. It really only comes down to flavor value and move pool space.

 

[X-Act]

Actually Alakazam is OU now on the Standard ladder. It's not OU on the CAP ladder though.

What do you think about Thunder Wave, guys? I don't think it's too overpowered as CAP5 is already practically faster than anything else (especially if Deoxys-S is moved up to uber). I'm also considering it from the point of view of it being a TM, which means it would be very simple to tuck it in the movepool.

 

[zarator]

Actually Alakazam is OU now on the Standard ladder. It's not OU on the CAP ladder though.

What do you think about Thunder Wave, guys? I don't think it's too overpowered as CAP5 is already practically faster than anything else (especially if Deoxys-S is moved up to uber). I'm also considering it from the point of view of it being a TM, which means it would be very simple to tuck it in the movepool.

Ofc it is viable. Even if it will be doomed to the "Other Options" limbo :-)

This is where I'd like to repeat my proposal to omit the base 95+ elemental beam moves from Rockmon's move pool. Supply it with the slightly lower base power moves to work with instead (Discharge , Lave Plume, Energy Ball, Signal Beam ect..). This does two things. Gives Technician more merit once again, as a power vs versatility compromise, as I've express in the past. And also makes a Calm Mind set not quite so overwhelming in raw power, with out taking away type coverage.

Vividsketch, we already decided about elemental beams, and we decided to include them. If you think that CM + elemental beams would be broken - which is actually true - then vote against Calm Mind. But dont bash more with the elemental beams. You have already expressed your opinion in the past thread. Most people has proven to disagree with you. End of the story.