CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 11a (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

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tennisace

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Break the Mold-Click here to see the full post.
latinoheat said:
Name: Break the Mold

Description:
An OU viable pokemon that goes completely against the stereotypes of its typing.
Type: Rock

Offensive/Defensive Bias: Offensive 20-40
Physical/Special Bias: Special -20 and lower
Base Stat Rating: Very Good
Base Stats:90/60/65/120/70/130 Speed Last
Primary Ability: Levitate
Secondary Ability: Technician
Moves Not Allowed in the Movepool: Blizzard, Grass Knot, Focus Punch, Silver Wind

Art By yourDeadGrandad


The TL should post an initial competitive Non-Attacking movepool in the OP of a discussion thread. This initial movepool should only contain competitive moves that do not do damage to the opponent, or moves whose damage impact is negligible. For example, Rapid Spin and Knock Off are considered non-attacking moves, even though they do a small amount of damage. As a general rule, any competitive move that can be prevented by Taunt, should be included in this discussion. The community should post regarding necessary additions and removals to the list proposed in the OP. No full learnset posts are allowed in this discussion, and should be strictly prohibited.

Try to keep flavor out of your arguments. If its a side comment or something, fine, but don't make flavor your main point.

If you suggest a move, I want to know what it will help this Pokemon with, and what it would help it beat. Same goes for the reverse arguments. The most controversial will be polled on. If it doesn't get on the poll, its fair game for the movepools. I'll be putting as much as possible on the poll. If a move isn't on this list, but isn't really controversial, it won't be on the poll.

A move will be on the poll if and only if there are three or more people opposed. This doesn't include new moves, thats separate. Really, if only one person says no to something, it doesn't deserve to be on the poll. Also, all moves not on my starter list that don't get 3 or more opposed are fine in the final movepool. Any move on my starter list that gets 3 or more opposed will be put to a vote, any other will be fine. This doesn't mean you need to include my list in your movepool. It's merely a conversation starter/movepool starter. So please don't say I'm taking over this project by making a list of moves that may or may not be controversial, they're all up for debate and vote, provided it meets the requirements.

You are not allowed to post lists of moves, just pick one or two moves and focus your arguments on those.

Here is a list of all non-attacking moves.
If there's a Smogon version out there then please link me =)

My Initial List:
Calm Mind
Endure
Protect
Rock Polish
Stealth Rock
Substitute
Taunt

It may not look big, but I only listed the useful ones. Discuss.
 
I'm fine with the current list with one exception. No Stealth Rock.

While no sr limits possible movesets such as utility. I do not want another Suicide lead. There are two perfect ones already out there (azelf and deo-e). I suggest you use them. There is a reason Deoxys-E is facing a ban, and that is it's defensive DSD set. With ultra fast taunt and SR, there is no reason to make the same set, but less bulky.
 
Please no Stealth Rocks... And maybe you should add Wish? Give it some sort of tanking ability, since it has no defence stats.
 
Calm Mind actually worries me, with Brimstone in the lead for the new move poll. Blissey can't actually counter CM+Sub+Sandstorm unless it has Seismic Toss, which is a minority option these days, and with almost every Rock resist fearing a burn rate upon switchin I'm not what if anything can safely manage it. Only two attacks means it's guaranteed to be walled by something, admittedly, but if those Pokemon can't keep Rockmon from actually setting up they might not make for much of a check or counter.

I'd like to suggest U-turn. The damage will be crap, obviously, but the scouting might come in handy sometime, and as a TM it can fit easily on the movepool. Flavorwise it's a bit of a stretch perhaps, but not much.

Why do Protect and Endure even need to be on this list? IIRC every single Pokemon that can use TMs gets them aside from LOL Regigigas, so them seem like givens.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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No Calm Mind.

The only rocks that get Calm Mind are part Psychic. This doesn't look Calm at all. It looks aggressive and attack-oriented. It also gives it yet more bulk in Sandstorm.

Addition: Magnet Rise
It basically floats by Magnetism anyway. Would be fun on a Technician set, allowing Ground Immunity at the expense of a moveslot. Could learn through Tutors.

Addition: Metal Sound
While I don't support Calm Mind, Metal Sound could be very interesting. I imagine this could put out a high screech by boosting magnetic power or some other kind of high-pitched emission. Could learn only be level-up.

Addition: Knock Off
Clawed Pokemon with Knock Off seem to be very common. Would allow it to take some bite out of a non speed-boosted pokemon, or deal with walls by removing their leftovers, or sending away their bad Trick Item. COuld learn by Tutors.
 
Sub Calm mind would be too awesome with STAB rock + fire move, so I'm definately against that...the rest seem ok I guess, iffy about taunt but meh
 
Calm Mind actually worries me, with Brimstone in the lead for the new move poll. Blissey can't actually counter CM+Sub+Sandstorm unless it has Seismic Toss, which is a minority option these days, and with almost every Rock resist fearing a burn rate upon switchin I'm not what if anything can safely manage it. Only two attacks means it's guaranteed to be walled by something, admittedly, but if those Pokemon can't keep Rockmon from actually setting up they might not make for much of a check or counter.
Don't count your chickens before they hatch. They're still enough time and they're still a good chance your most hated move lose the race. I would say wait for awhile and see what develops. Personally I have faith Brimstone will win, but you just never know...stange things can happens.
 
No Stealth Rock.

Like has been said this would make it a very suitable choice for a suicide lead, add to the fact the only other fast rock type-Aerodactyl is really only used as a SR Lead; this is hardly "Breaking the Mold"

Support: Magnet Rise
Agree with Deck Knight it can already Levitate so why wouldn't the technician variation be able to do the same,

Support: Metal Sound
Nothing to add that Deck Knight hasn't already said.


Addition: Trick/Recover/Psych up

I think both these could be good options, Recover+CM might be over the top however. Trick would give it another option to stop walls such as Blissey and Cresselia, just wanted more opinions on this to be honest.
 
I'm in agreement with everyone so far as to no Stealth Rock and a possibility of no Calm Mind, but I don't think Calm Mind will be broken by a long shot considering this is most likely getting Ancient Power. Sure it's only a slight chance, but it raises all stats, including SpA and SpD.

Its going to be funny from a flavor standpoint, though; a thing made of floating pointy rocks can't put floating pointy rocks on the opponents side of the field. Just thought I'd point that out.
 
Calm Mind
I'm not sure about this, it's going to have a large movepool and 120 SpA.

Endure, Protect, Substitute
Don't all Pokemon but Regigas get these?

Rock Polish
I don't think it will be used much, but it could be used to outrun everything.

Stealth Rock
Every Rock Pokemon gets it! I can see why people don't want to make another suicide lead, but Azelf will outclass it without Taunt and Trick. The only real advantages it would have would by to hit Yanmega SE and wall it and Yanmega would still survive it with a Focus Sash anyway.

Taunt
I don't really want it if it means making another suicide lead.

Knock Off
This could also be used to Knock Off Choice Scarfs, but probably wouldn't see much use.
 
No Calm Mind.

The only rocks that get Calm Mind are part Psychic. This doesn't look Calm at all. It looks aggressive and attack-oriented. It also gives it yet more bulk in Sandstorm.
False, Sudowoodo, Corsola, and Relicanth all get calm mind

There are actually more NON-Psychic rock types that get it than there are rock/psychics :S
 
Absolute yes on Calm Mind.

The only rocks that get Calm Mind are part Psychic. This doesn't look Calm at all. It looks aggressive and attack-oriented. It also gives it yet more bulk in Sandstorm.
hey look we're breaking the mold!

With no Focus Punch, Seismic Toss Blissey is a 100% counter to every CaP 5 variant without explosion. Calm Mind/Sub gives CaP 5 a way to beat some Blissey variants, yet Bliss can still counter it successfully with the right moveset. Do we want CaP 5 able to beat some Blissey variants, or do we want it to lose to all Blissey variants?

And from a flavor standpoint, it looks pretty much emotionless. Just because it has sharp claws doesn't mean its instantly aggressive. Actually, I don't think it would see a whole lot of use, but Swords Dance would completely fit from a flavor standpoint, so I don't see much of a reason to not include it.
 
No stealth rock

No more suicide leads, please...

And it'll break the mold if we have a sr less rock pokemon.
 
Being able to benefit from not losing its sash to sandstorm from TTar leads would make this thing too good as a suicide lead IMO, not to mention its insane speed. This thing is a sweeper, let's leave it that way please.


I'm very worried about a set like:

Taunt
Stealth Rock
Light screen/Reflect/STAB move
Explosion

I don't really want to see a rock type Azelf. This is the LAST thing I wanted when I saw a rock type with 130 speed.
 
Calm Mind is not too major; its special defense is already decent, and SToss Blissey will likely take it even with Calm Mind. At the same time, Calm Mind could give this guy more roles than ChoiceSweeper.

I like the Tutor moves like Magnet Rise and Trick; they should be passed to movepool stage. Magnet Rise would match Levitate and take up no competitive movepool space, while Trick would be an interesting side strategy. Recover is also viable, considering pokemon like Corsola get it; although you rarely see Alakazam running Recover. Swords Dance is a TM; could be fun on a surprise physical set.

The problem with restricting CAP 5's movepool to prevent suicide-leading is that to do so would require the elimination of moves that pretty much every pokemon gets via TM. That is why I believe that Stealth Rock and Taunt, which are TM moves, should be available. To eliminate them, you would have to do some heavy handed RegiFail style intervention.As a suicide lead, is there any more cause to fear CAP 5 than Aerodactyl or Azelf?

Although...

Light Screen
Reflect
SR
Explosion

would be interesting, and frightening. Perhaps the Suicide Lead strategy could be negated by removing the screens, but those are also TM moves.

Why don't we give it Rapid Spin and Knock Off too?
 

Frosty

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Endure
Protect
Rock Polish
Substitute
Taunt


I have nothing against them, really. Actually, endure seems a bit useless on this poke, so I wouldn't mind not having it on our poke movepool.

Calm Mind: I am all for it...at least for testing. The bad defensive typing + rather average defenses will make a CM less broken. Also, rockmon will suffer more against physical attackers (read: Bullet Punch and Mach Punch), so I don't see CM removing those counters as well.


Stealth Rock

Every rock poke gets this, so our mold breaker poke shouldn't <_<;. Seriously, I don't want another suicide lead, since it isn't, by any chance, a mold breaker poke *points at aerodactyl*. And the great speed together with nice Sp.Atk makes it a nice suicide lead, and that is, uh, bad.
 
Indeed false researching DeckKnight.
@Darkflagrance, even with the good special defense, alakazam is no good at taking hits, that's why he's not running recover, this thing however, has the HP to back that up

Yes to calm mind:
Gives this thing more roles than just a choice user, besides... if sudowoodo and bonsly get it T_T
 
No: Stealth Rock ... Just too powerpowered.

No: Magnet Rise
... It's not steel nor electric. I don't see how can that be even close to a Magnet. Plus, it already has Levitate, although more likely people will abuse Technician.

No: Knock Off ... It just doesn't look like something that can use that move... Unless it completely sticks an entire arm out... Rapid Spin is okay though.

With the Elemental Beams already, I find this thing has no counter if Focus Sash is held. With Levitate, it can be immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Sandstorm, and I don't think we should make every team necessary to carry Stealth Rock just to make sure that this thing is not going to live on its Sash.

Things with Bullet Punch, with main users Metagross and Scizor, can all be killed by Flamethrower. Now Explosion is available, and If Calm Mind will be, I don't see a SINGLE COUNTER at all. Life Orb + STAB Technician AncientPower can 2HKO a Snorlax if the Hax from AncientPower kicks in...

I will soon be looking for Rockman in the re-edit just like Syclant/Revenankh, or else the CAP Uber, as Giratina looks like the only safe counter for me, of course, barring that it hax the Technician Omnious Wind, then we can really get a kick out of that too. Special-oriented, it won't even be affected by Burn other than the damages (no drop in offensive attacks other than Explosion, which it most likely rarely uses...) I said that for one reasoning: NO CALM MIND... That way, it would be slightly less "uberish" than what it would be... Eeek. In Sandstorm, with Calm Mind, I wouldn't doubt if it can actually tank Special. As for physical tanking, goes to the Sandstreamer Hippowdon.
 
So far, I'm liking all of the options we have...

I only have one possible addition, which I believe everyone will shoot down pretty much immediately, but has surprisingly NOT been mentioned:
NASTY PLOT

He can get it through the tutors, and as weve discussed earlier, most Priority moves will OHKO him. He would also have to use up a moveslot which could be alternately used to cover. Also, we gave Syclant Tail Glow, so why not?
 
So far, I'm liking all of the options we have...

I only have one possible addition, which I believe everyone will shoot down pretty much immediately, but has surprisingly NOT been mentioned:
NASTY PLOT

He can get it through the tutors, and as weve discussed earlier, most Priority moves will OHKO him. He would also have to use up a moveslot which could be alternately used to cover. Also, we gave Syclant Tail Glow, so why not?
So needing blissey/strong bullet punches to counter this thing wouldn't be too centralizing? >_____>
 
No: Magnet Rise ... It's not steel nor electric. I don't see how can that be even close to a Magnet. Plus, it already has Levitate, although more likely people will abuse Technician.
In response to the No Magnet Rise talk...how do you think this thing holds itself together if not for a magnetic field? I think Magnet Rise makes sense, plus you have to use a slot for it on a Technician set.

Now for the question at hand, I don't see any real problems with anything listed but maybe Stealth Rock. It seems to go against the reason for creating this Pokemon and that it's a Special Sweeper.
 
So needing blissey/strong bullet punches to counter this thing wouldn't be too centralizing? >_____>
not necessarily just a bullet puncher...I se Deoxys-e revenge killing, other Priority users, ie Lucario (Bullet Punch/ExtremeSpeed/Vacuum Wave), Scizor, Empoleon(Aqua Jet), Infernape (Mach Punch), etc.

And again, though I would love to see it on it, I see others having a BIG problem with it...

And again, Syclant gets Tail Glow, which is the same thing, and has almost as much Spd and great attack, so why not?

EDIT: More ideas: Status infliction moves eg Toxic, TWave, they might be viable on a support set.

Also, Protect or Detect would be cool for scouting
 
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