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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Base Stat Submission Thread
- Thread starter Sunday
- Start date
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That's exactly what I've been aiming for in my spreads.
My most updated one:
100/80/90/65/95/120
It shall be done. My furtherer revised spread is below
103HP/81ATK/97DEF/75SAT/87SDF/112SPE
555 BST
112SPE
Part of being the ultimate utility PKMN is the ability to be relied upon every single time, and a vital part of reliability is speed, which is also why I'm hoping that this PKMN gets Speed Boost (that and it doesn't have to be in Bug/Flying territory). 112 stats to Speed should suffice, as it allows this PKMN to outspeed sweepers such as Garchomp, Infernape and Porygon Z. 3 examples of the only PKMN that can outspeed this PKMN (and this excludes Speed Boost and Agility) are Starmie, Aerodactyl and Ninjask, and they'll go down easily enough.
103HP/97DEF/87SDF
Another part of ultra-reliability is bulk, and these stats maximize bulk without allowing it to have a ridiculously high bulk to speed ratio. If this weren't a problem, I would make these stats higher, but if people are gonna scream "UBER UBER UBER" because I do so, then that'll be a problem. The reason why this has 97 stats to Defence and only 87 stats to Sp. Def is to make it slightly biased to the physical side.
81ATK/75SAT
The attacking stats are toned down because they're not as necessary on a utility PKMN as they are on, say a tank, and to make it slightly biased towards defence. I was planning on having a much lower Sp. Atk stat, but that would make it too biased towards the physical side, so 75 stats will have to do. If this PKMN must attack, it can still do so with 81 stats to Attack, and for the less sane, 75 stats to Sp. Atk
Physical Sweepiness: 2 (127)
Physical Tankiness: 3 (144)
Special Sweepiness: 1 (117)
Special Tankiness: 2 (131)
Slight Bias to Defence (-7.0)
Slight Bias to Physical (9.2)
Overall Rating: Very Good (372)
Oh, and should I PM this to Sunday (who I'm presuming is Topic Leader)?
I love how everyone is quoting Aldaron about the Attack and Speed stats, lol.
But, let me get this straight. Sunday will pm you if he wants you to submit a stat spread?
But, let me get this straight. Sunday will pm you if he wants you to submit a stat spread?
Not me, I kinda sticking to me latest stat spread(a page back or so). The only thing I might change is the HP and speed. Hell I'll go in the opposite direction and made him slow but super sturdy just for lawls.
Eh, I've had the 80 Attack and 110+ Speed the entire time.
That's what I've been aiming for since I started with the spreads.
That's what I've been aiming for since I started with the spreads.
Crap, now I have to revamp my spread.
just dumping this spread out there:
95/65/135/50/90/110
i can see the point in 140 base speed, because you wont want to be putting EVs into speed.
but then theres always the people who will see, for example, if the spread above is used, they will look at 140 base speed, and make it into a CB sweeper.
So we could give it like 110 speed as i suggested, and instead, give it a defense stat that wont require EVs.
95/65/135/50/90/110
i can see the point in 140 base speed, because you wont want to be putting EVs into speed.
but then theres always the people who will see, for example, if the spread above is used, they will look at 140 base speed, and make it into a CB sweeper.
So we could give it like 110 speed as i suggested, and instead, give it a defense stat that wont require EVs.
I made a few spreads, that have different advantages. Take your pick.
A very balanced spread
With a 95/90/95/45/95/105 spread, It has a somewhat fast speed, and a very balanced build all around. i had to put some flaw into it, since 90 attack was just too much IMO so instead of a 65 Special attack, I put it at a horrendous 45, balancing it out a bit. It has 95 base stats for tanking, so it could go either mixed, Physical, or Special however it likes, and still have a decent number on the other defense stat it leaves alone.
A speedy Physical tank spread
It has a much different spread, it being 90/75/105/45/95/105. I give it okay attack and that horrible 45 special attack stat to balance the spread. Though, the 90/105/95 defense spread and that 105 speed, which makes it a little bit broken..
Also, I just now whipped up some extra others, for some ideas.
95/80/95/45/80/110
95/75/100/45/90/95
85/70/100/45/100/90
This wouldn't be that bad of an idea. 2 bad attack stats, some decent speed, and nice defenses, with an okay HP.
A very balanced spread
With a 95/90/95/45/95/105 spread, It has a somewhat fast speed, and a very balanced build all around. i had to put some flaw into it, since 90 attack was just too much IMO so instead of a 65 Special attack, I put it at a horrendous 45, balancing it out a bit. It has 95 base stats for tanking, so it could go either mixed, Physical, or Special however it likes, and still have a decent number on the other defense stat it leaves alone.
A speedy Physical tank spread
It has a much different spread, it being 90/75/105/45/95/105. I give it okay attack and that horrible 45 special attack stat to balance the spread. Though, the 90/105/95 defense spread and that 105 speed, which makes it a little bit broken..
Also, I just now whipped up some extra others, for some ideas.
95/80/95/45/80/110
95/75/100/45/90/95
85/70/100/45/100/90
This wouldn't be that bad of an idea. 2 bad attack stats, some decent speed, and nice defenses, with an okay HP.
The flaw in your argument is that no one is going to submit or discuss a stat spread with 600 BST that performs that poorly. Most people are trying to make spreads that optimize a pokemon's Base Stat Pool, not minimize it. What's more likely to happen is:
164/150/80/50/80/70 = 594 BST, 749 Fantastic.
Oh, and a 75 Speed Shuckle would be amazing >_>.
Besides, Scyclant has 555 BST, already outflanking all existing non 600 pokemon. Do you really want to know how much garbage you would take if it had 45 more BST optimized in either Speed or Offenses?
Also, 112 Speed actually does have precedent: Purugly. It still outspeeds the Base 110s, but at least it doesn't look dirty and unheard of like Syclant's 121 lol.
I actually like your stat spread to some degree, but I was more scolding the users who will make our project famous for working on the creative with, shall we say, "unlimited funds." Anyone can create anything competitive given no limits other than those they personally place on themselves. The above spread is a Hariyama-based upgrade that would be much more dominant in OU, based solely on the fact we've taken what was already a fairly viable pokemon without the crutch of huge BST, and simply modernized it into a beastly concoction of heretofore unheard of mixed defensive power (Unless you are Arceus).
Maybe I'm just old-fashioned and self-restricted, but considering we've never even tried to make something competitive that didn't already match or exceed the highest non-legendary BST's available, I'm not as sympathetic to your plight of "X is broken!" complaints as I would be otherwise.
Anyway, I just feal queasy about the 57 Base HP. It smacks of Dusknoir or Deoxys(D)-esque quality, but unlike 'Noir, this thing is begging for Seismic Toss to come its way. 67 HP would make me feel a little better, because at least then, like Bronzong, it could max HP and survive 4 Seismic Tosses with Leftovers.
55/70/125/70/108/112 = 540
P.Sweepiness: 110 (Above Average)
P. Tankiness: 130 (Moderately Good)
S. Sweepiness: 110 (Above Average)
S. Tankiness: 114 (Above Average)
Overall rating = 257 (Quite Good)
112/70/80/70/70/112 = 514
P. Sweepiness: 113 (Above Average)
P. Tankiness: 129 (Moderately Good)
S. Sweepiness: 107 (Average)
S. Tankiness: 116 (Above Average)
Overall rating = 257 (Quite Good)
Holy Crap, that's amazing 0_o. Not serious stat submissions, just toying around with X-Act stat rating. Did tried to make a decently good spreads without going over 540 for a little challenge.
P.Sweepiness: 110 (Above Average)
P. Tankiness: 130 (Moderately Good)
S. Sweepiness: 110 (Above Average)
S. Tankiness: 114 (Above Average)
Overall rating = 257 (Quite Good)
112/70/80/70/70/112 = 514
P. Sweepiness: 113 (Above Average)
P. Tankiness: 129 (Moderately Good)
S. Sweepiness: 107 (Average)
S. Tankiness: 116 (Above Average)
Overall rating = 257 (Quite Good)
Holy Crap, that's amazing 0_o. Not serious stat submissions, just toying around with X-Act stat rating. Did tried to make a decently good spreads without going over 540 for a little challenge.
Well, seeing as how I am unknown currently on smogon, I don't know how much this will be looked at or taken into consideration, but I will put my two cents in on this.
Based on the typing of the pokemon and what it's goals were I came up with this spread:
HP:110
ATK: 80
DEF: 95
SATK: 70
SDEF: 95
SPD: 110
P.Sweeper- Moderately Good (124)
P.Tank- Very Good (147)
S.Sweeper- Average (109)
S.Tank- Very Good (147)
O/D Balance- Slight Bias to Defense (-9.2)
P/S Balance- Slight Bias to Physical (7.1)
Overall: Very Good (406)
Below are the Stat Statistics which are in the standard Smogon format of:
Min-/Min/Max/Max+:
HP: -/361/424/-
ATK: 176/196/259/284
DEF: 203/226/289/317
SATK: 158/176/239/262
SDEF: 203/226/289/317
SPD: 230/256/319/350
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Alright here is my reasoning for this spread:
HP:
While some do not find this good especially should the pokemon have substitute, I think it is actually a decent stat. The Min/Max isn't extreme and with a 4x weakness to a very common attack type, mostly due to EQ, I find it not that much of a problem considering the defensive base stats. It allows it to actually take a non-super effective hit or two from pokemon with higher speed stats and still serve it's purpose: Utility.
Atk/Satk:
Both of the base attacking stats are at a respectable level considering what this pokemon is supposed to do. A base 80/70 in it's attack stats allows it to do some damage, albeit not a lot, to pokemon and still lets the pokemon be viable against non-walls and some other utility/set-up pokemon. It's not too high to make it's speed a little too much and it's not low enough that the pokemon can't hold it's own when needed.
Def/SDef:
The defensive stats seem about correct for a part ground pokemon that is supposed to be used for utility. Just like HP, it allows it to take a hit or two and still let it do what it is supposed to do, provide utility for the rest of the team. The defense and hp won't save it from it's weaknesses yet, they aren't high enough to be as hard to deal with as Bronzong can be with it's base 116 defense stats.
SPD:
The speed is a base 110. This can allow it to do it's job especially against slower pokes and some of the slower pokes that carry it's weaknesses. It outspeeds other defese based pokemon and as stated, helps it hold it's own when needed to without being too high that it's movepool has to be severly restricted.
Based on the typing of the pokemon and what it's goals were I came up with this spread:
HP:110
ATK: 80
DEF: 95
SATK: 70
SDEF: 95
SPD: 110
P.Sweeper- Moderately Good (124)
P.Tank- Very Good (147)
S.Sweeper- Average (109)
S.Tank- Very Good (147)
O/D Balance- Slight Bias to Defense (-9.2)
P/S Balance- Slight Bias to Physical (7.1)
Overall: Very Good (406)
Below are the Stat Statistics which are in the standard Smogon format of:
Min-/Min/Max/Max+:
HP: -/361/424/-
ATK: 176/196/259/284
DEF: 203/226/289/317
SATK: 158/176/239/262
SDEF: 203/226/289/317
SPD: 230/256/319/350
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alright here is my reasoning for this spread:
HP:
While some do not find this good especially should the pokemon have substitute, I think it is actually a decent stat. The Min/Max isn't extreme and with a 4x weakness to a very common attack type, mostly due to EQ, I find it not that much of a problem considering the defensive base stats. It allows it to actually take a non-super effective hit or two from pokemon with higher speed stats and still serve it's purpose: Utility.
Atk/Satk:
Both of the base attacking stats are at a respectable level considering what this pokemon is supposed to do. A base 80/70 in it's attack stats allows it to do some damage, albeit not a lot, to pokemon and still lets the pokemon be viable against non-walls and some other utility/set-up pokemon. It's not too high to make it's speed a little too much and it's not low enough that the pokemon can't hold it's own when needed.
Def/SDef:
The defensive stats seem about correct for a part ground pokemon that is supposed to be used for utility. Just like HP, it allows it to take a hit or two and still let it do what it is supposed to do, provide utility for the rest of the team. The defense and hp won't save it from it's weaknesses yet, they aren't high enough to be as hard to deal with as Bronzong can be with it's base 116 defense stats.
SPD:
The speed is a base 110. This can allow it to do it's job especially against slower pokes and some of the slower pokes that carry it's weaknesses. It outspeeds other defese based pokemon and as stated, helps it hold it's own when needed to without being too high that it's movepool has to be severly restricted.
Yeah, but with 67 base HP, I'll surpass your 555 BST limit. See my point now?
100/80/95/50/85/95 = 505
I realize that I should write a full analysis for my spread, but I have not the patients or the time. Personally I think that 102+ speed with the inability to poison this pokemon would be a huge threat after it throws up a screen. In addition, this pokemon's utility function initially made me consider a shuckle like spread, similiar to those previously posted, however, I thought about how annoying shuckle would be with poision immunity. I'm also concerned with toying with speeds greater then that of most fragile sweepers because it is possible to continue the bulky sweeper format with a Garchomp defence as it is with a Garchomp offence.
P.S. Encore is not the most fun move to play against when given to the fast and sturdy.
I realize that I should write a full analysis for my spread, but I have not the patients or the time. Personally I think that 102+ speed with the inability to poison this pokemon would be a huge threat after it throws up a screen. In addition, this pokemon's utility function initially made me consider a shuckle like spread, similiar to those previously posted, however, I thought about how annoying shuckle would be with poision immunity. I'm also concerned with toying with speeds greater then that of most fragile sweepers because it is possible to continue the bulky sweeper format with a Garchomp defence as it is with a Garchomp offence.
P.S. Encore is not the most fun move to play against when given to the fast and sturdy.
Cut 5 Each out of wherever (or even 2 out of everything else) and call it a day. Really, It's your spread, you can tell me to jump off the roof if you want.
Seriously, nothing in our spreads is set in stone. I try and rework and revamp my spreads all the time taking a point out here or there. If I wanted it to survive 4 Stosses and still be tanky, I might scratch some off my higher defense.
Honestly, 555 is way more than enough to think of something. Blissey is everywhere and its at 540, Heracross dominates the listings at 505 (IIRC), Most of the starters bench around 535 and Swampert and Infernape manage to hit OU quite often, with Sceptile, Swampy, and Blaziken hanging around last gen, plus random Bellyzard. I still use Blastoise as my "anti-ghost spinner" because I know it won't die in one hit.
I mean, if you want to be percieved as "the innovative OU community, where no stat shall be under 65 and no total under 540," thats fine by me. As for me, I'll be perfectly happy trying to build 525 and 535 spreads that work, since in a realistic pokemon universe, powerful single-evolution pokemon aren't running rampant waiting to be discovered >_>. I think.
You are still reasoning as if BST still is an indicator of how good the stats of a pokémon are. And it is not. The stat ratings offer a much more accurate depiction of the power of a spread. So, considering that, as long as the spread is within the voted stat rating, everything is fair game.
As a community that praises itself in understanding the pokémon metagame better than anyone, we shouldn't be bothered by the commentaries of those who disregard high BSTs without looking at the spread itself. The "BST = power" argument shows the same mentality as the "legendary = uber" one. Both part from assumptions that are generally wrong.
Let's simply forget about BST. BST doesn't exist. You can't say it has to much or too little because you're never going to add all base stats together ever. It's irrelevant.
If your argument revolved around stat ratings, and how the community tends to choose higher ones, you would have a point. But BST means nothing when you are past the prejudice of "High BST = good stats, low BST = bad stats".
As a community that praises itself in understanding the pokémon metagame better than anyone, we shouldn't be bothered by the commentaries of those who disregard high BSTs without looking at the spread itself. The "BST = power" argument shows the same mentality as the "legendary = uber" one. Both part from assumptions that are generally wrong.
Let's simply forget about BST. BST doesn't exist. You can't say it has to much or too little because you're never going to add all base stats together ever. It's irrelevant.
If your argument revolved around stat ratings, and how the community tends to choose higher ones, you would have a point. But BST means nothing when you are past the prejudice of "High BST = good stats, low BST = bad stats".
It's basically what Time Mage says. Let's elaborate a bit to get the point across:
Consider a pretty vanilla stat spread: 100/80/80/80/80/100 having 520 BST.
It has 120 PT, 120 PS, 120 ST and 120 SS, and an overall rating of 282.
Suppose I lower the HP by 20 and increase the Def and SpD both by 10, getting 80/80/90/80/80/90. The BST is still 520, and you might think that PT and ST should have stayed the same since I increased both defenses by 10 and decreased HP by 20, thus balancing it out. But actually PT and ST are now 117. So suddenly the Pokemon has been worsened, so much so that the overall rating lowers from 282 to 271.
Let's do it again, lowering HP by 20 and increasing both defenses by 10, getting 60/80/100/80/100/100. The BST is still 520, but PT and ST have been lowered once again, becoming 111. The overall rating becomes 252.
Doing it again one last time: 40/80/110/80/110/100 has BST 520 but PT and ST are now both 102, and overall rating becomes 229.
So we have:
100/80/80/80/80/100 has overall rating 282
80/80/90/80/90/100 has overall rating 271
60/80/100/80/100/100 has overall rating 252
40/80/110/80/110/100 has overall rating 229
And all of them has BST 520.
As is clearly seen, low HP/high Def spreads having the same BST as high HP/low Def spreads are penalised because they are less defensive.
To have the same defenses with the HP listed, the spreads would be:
100/80/80/80/80/100 (Rating 282, BST 520)
80/80/93/80/93/100 (Rating 283, BST 526)
60/80/110/80/110/100 (Rating 283, BST 540)
40/80/132/80/132/100 (Rating 281, BST 564)
According to you, the last stat spread would be illegal because it surpasses the BST of 555, even though it is exactly identical, defense-wise and attack-wise, to the first one! And this is notwithstanding the fact that the first stat spread can make 101 HP subs and the last one can't... yet you ban it.
So imposing a limit to the BST basically penalises stat spreads having low HP and high defenses for no reason whatsoever. And I don't want that.
Consider a pretty vanilla stat spread: 100/80/80/80/80/100 having 520 BST.
It has 120 PT, 120 PS, 120 ST and 120 SS, and an overall rating of 282.
Suppose I lower the HP by 20 and increase the Def and SpD both by 10, getting 80/80/90/80/80/90. The BST is still 520, and you might think that PT and ST should have stayed the same since I increased both defenses by 10 and decreased HP by 20, thus balancing it out. But actually PT and ST are now 117. So suddenly the Pokemon has been worsened, so much so that the overall rating lowers from 282 to 271.
Let's do it again, lowering HP by 20 and increasing both defenses by 10, getting 60/80/100/80/100/100. The BST is still 520, but PT and ST have been lowered once again, becoming 111. The overall rating becomes 252.
Doing it again one last time: 40/80/110/80/110/100 has BST 520 but PT and ST are now both 102, and overall rating becomes 229.
So we have:
100/80/80/80/80/100 has overall rating 282
80/80/90/80/90/100 has overall rating 271
60/80/100/80/100/100 has overall rating 252
40/80/110/80/110/100 has overall rating 229
And all of them has BST 520.
As is clearly seen, low HP/high Def spreads having the same BST as high HP/low Def spreads are penalised because they are less defensive.
To have the same defenses with the HP listed, the spreads would be:
100/80/80/80/80/100 (Rating 282, BST 520)
80/80/93/80/93/100 (Rating 283, BST 526)
60/80/110/80/110/100 (Rating 283, BST 540)
40/80/132/80/132/100 (Rating 281, BST 564)
According to you, the last stat spread would be illegal because it surpasses the BST of 555, even though it is exactly identical, defense-wise and attack-wise, to the first one! And this is notwithstanding the fact that the first stat spread can make 101 HP subs and the last one can't... yet you ban it.
So imposing a limit to the BST basically penalises stat spreads having low HP and high defenses for no reason whatsoever. And I don't want that.
I don't think there should be a limit to BST, within reason. I don't think there should be any with a BST over 600, and I think X-Act would agree. Can you come up with a spread in the Very Good range with 600 BST? I don't think so. So while there shouldn't be a creative limit, there is always a physical limit.
My even furtherer revised spread:
99HP/81ATK/97DEF/75SAT/87SDF/110SPE
555 BST
110SPE
Part of being the ultimate utility PKMN is the ability to be relied upon every single time, and a vital part of reliability is speed, which is also why I'm hoping that this PKMN gets Speed Boost (that and it doesn't have to be in Bug/Flying territory). 110 stats to Speed should suffice, as it allows this PKMN to outspeed sweepers such as Garchomp, Infernape and Porygon Z. 3 examples of the only PKMN that can outspeed this PKMN (and this excludes Speed Boost and Agility) are Starmie, Aerodactyl and Ninjask, and they'll go down easily enough.
99HP/97DEF/87SDF
Another part of ultra-reliability is bulk, and these stats maximize bulk without allowing it to have a ridiculously high bulk to speed ratio. If this weren't a problem, I would make these stats higher, but if people are gonna scream "UBER UBER UBER" because I do so, then that'll be a problem. The reason why this has 97 stats to Defence and only 87 stats to Sp. Def is to make it slightly biased to the physical side. 99 stats to HP may stop it from being able to perform 101 Subs, but that isn't a necessity
81ATK/75SAT
The attacking stats are toned down because they're not as necessary on a utility PKMN as they are on, say a tank, and to make it slightly biased towards defence. I was planning on having a much lower Sp. Atk stat, but that would make it too biased towards the physical side, so 75 stats will have to do. If this PKMN must attack, it can still do so with 81 stats to Attack, and for the less sane, 75 stats to Sp. Atk
Physical Sweepiness: 2 (126)
Physical Tankiness: 3 (140)
Special Sweepiness: 1 (117)
Special Tankiness: 2 (128)
Slight Bias to Defence (-6.0)
Slight Bias to Physical (9.1)
Overall Rating: Very Good (352)
Nice to know that I'm actually getting feedback
99HP/81ATK/97DEF/75SAT/87SDF/110SPE
555 BST
110SPE
Part of being the ultimate utility PKMN is the ability to be relied upon every single time, and a vital part of reliability is speed, which is also why I'm hoping that this PKMN gets Speed Boost (that and it doesn't have to be in Bug/Flying territory). 110 stats to Speed should suffice, as it allows this PKMN to outspeed sweepers such as Garchomp, Infernape and Porygon Z. 3 examples of the only PKMN that can outspeed this PKMN (and this excludes Speed Boost and Agility) are Starmie, Aerodactyl and Ninjask, and they'll go down easily enough.
99HP/97DEF/87SDF
Another part of ultra-reliability is bulk, and these stats maximize bulk without allowing it to have a ridiculously high bulk to speed ratio. If this weren't a problem, I would make these stats higher, but if people are gonna scream "UBER UBER UBER" because I do so, then that'll be a problem. The reason why this has 97 stats to Defence and only 87 stats to Sp. Def is to make it slightly biased to the physical side. 99 stats to HP may stop it from being able to perform 101 Subs, but that isn't a necessity
81ATK/75SAT
The attacking stats are toned down because they're not as necessary on a utility PKMN as they are on, say a tank, and to make it slightly biased towards defence. I was planning on having a much lower Sp. Atk stat, but that would make it too biased towards the physical side, so 75 stats will have to do. If this PKMN must attack, it can still do so with 81 stats to Attack, and for the less sane, 75 stats to Sp. Atk
Physical Sweepiness: 2 (126)
Physical Tankiness: 3 (140)
Special Sweepiness: 1 (117)
Special Tankiness: 2 (128)
Slight Bias to Defence (-6.0)
Slight Bias to Physical (9.1)
Overall Rating: Very Good (352)
Nice to know that I'm actually getting feedback
Keep dreaming. Other than that, it looks a bit like my spread.
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