CAP 4 CAP 4 - Base Stat Submission Thread

[Sunday]

Pure Utility Pokemon

Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.

Primary Typing: Poison
Secondary Typing: Ground


Doug manages to phrase this way better than I've been able to:

Stat Spread Submissions
The Stat Spread Submission thread is intentionally started very early in the process. Based on past pokemon, it's obvious there are a lot of people that enjoy discussing detailed stat spreads long before the actual stat spread poll. We do not want to police those early bird discussions in the normal threads, therefore we create a dedicated thread for all Stat Spread discussion. Does it matter that we don't know the style, build, or anything else about the pokemon? No. If people waste a bunch of time in this thread on submissions that turn out to be useless when the stat spread poll comes around -- so be it. This is the place for people to "prove themselves" to the TL, for purposes of being selected to submit a spread for the actual stat spread poll.

The final Stat Spreads submitted for the stat spread poll must conform to the numeric rating limits voted in the various bias and rating polls -- the Offensive/Defensive Balance (ODB), the Physical/Special Balance (PSB) and the overall Base Stats Rating (BSR). Any spread that does not conform to these limits will be disqualified by the TL. As the bias and rating polls unfold, the discussion in the Stat Spread Submission thread should adapt accordingly.

Factors that will influence the Base Stat Spread that are yet to be decided are:
Style Bias
Build Bias
Base Stat Rating

People do not need to be submitting anything to post in this thread. This is just for chucking ideas around. I'll start it off. Personally, I would like to see this Pokemon with a boatload of speed. There's nothing better than being able to throw up a Light Screen in the face of a predicted Ice Beam or being able to switch into Chomp as it Dances up and Encore it before it can even move. I think between 110 and 125 is quite reasonable. Some Atk or a tiny bit of Defence may have to be sacrificed for this though (or maybe not?).

 

[X-Act]

I'm kinda assuming that this Pokemon will have good defenses and average attack. Having good speed AND good defenses is always dangerous unless the attacking movepool is severely limited.

I'm not saying that this thing shouldn't be fast. I'm just saying that we need to be extremely careful how to combine good speed AND good defenses.

 

[Aldaron]

Since my spread won last time, and since I now feel that I may have monopolized that process a bit too much, I won't be submitting a spread this time.

However, I would like to throw a few general pointers out there for you guys to keep in mind:

1.) Utility Pokemon do not require awesome defenses! While it may seem important, this is just nice, not a necessity.

2.) SPEED SPEED SPEED! Speed is an offensive stat...but it sure as hell is a defense stat as well. DO NOT FORGET THIS! A utility Pokemon with access to say, Encore (switching in on a Swords Dance, for example), Wish, Haze or Taunt would LOVE high Speed. Don't limit yourself here...if you want to give this thing 140 Base Speed, go ahead!

3.) While this is a utility type, don't forget that some of the beauty in Pokemon is in its unpredictability, so leave options for a potential attacking set open! In other words, try not to make the attacking stats below say, 75 each or something.

4.) If you HAVE to emphasize one defense, I recommend emphasizing physical defense, since the majority of major offensive threats are physical. Yes, I know about Syclant (who can run a physical set), Heatran, Mixape, Gengar and Azelf...but frankly speaking, SD Chomp / Luke, DD Gyara / Mence, CB Metagross / Heracross, Curse Lax / Pert etc. etc. are a slightly more serious threat.

5.) While defense might not be SUPER important...it is still quite significant. I'd recommend not making this less bulky overall than Deoxys-S. In fact, I'd recommend making it quite a bit more bulky, like the same defense stats but a 30 higher base HP...but that's just me ;D

6.) If you have to emphasize an attacking stat, I'd recommend emphasizing attack, as if this thing is a Dragon, Dragon Rush will become super useful in Gravity, and if this is a Ground, Earthquake immediately becomes a phenomenally better move.

I'll edit anything else in later.

 

[Sunday]

With the number of support moves People are dying to pack onto the limited number of useable attacks a Pokemon usually gets I get the feeling type coverage will be limited to STAB and maybe one other. Which in a way is good as we can then beef speed a bit :)

Since my spread won last time, and since I now feel that I may have monopolized that process a bit too much, I won't be submitting a spread this time.

However, I would like to throw a few general pointers out there for you guys to keep in mind:

1.) Utility Pokemon do not require awesome defenses! While it may seem important, this is just nice, not a necessity.


3.) While this is a utility type, don't forget that some of the beauty in Pokemon is in its unpredictability, so leave options for a potential attacking set open! In other words, try not to make the attacking stats below say, 75 each or something.

4.) If you HAVE to emphasize one defense, I recommend emphasizing physical defense, since the majority of major offensive threats are physical. Yes, I know about Syclant (who can run a physical set), Heatran, Mixape, Gengar and Azelf...but frankly speaking, SD Chomp / Luke, DD Gyara / Mence, CB Metagross / Heracross, Curse Lax / Pert etc. etc. are a slightly more serious threat.

5.) While defense might not be SUPER important...it is still quite significant. I'd recommend not making this less bulky overall than Deoxys-S. In fact, I'd recommend making it quite a bit more bulky, like the same defense stats but a 30 higher base HP...but that's just me ;D

6.) If you have to emphasize an attacking stat, I'd recommend emphasizing attack, as if this thing is a Dragon, Dragon Rush will become super useful in Gravity, and if this is a Ground, Earthquake immediately becomes a phenomenally better move.

A few of things are going to be determined by incoming polls, like the difference between it's Attacking stats and it's Defencive stats, it's Physical / Special (offencive only) bias and by extention it's bulk.

 

[X-Act]

Well, if people want an ultra-fast Pokemon, make sure not to vote for defensive as well. Vote for balanced.

75 Atk and 140 Spe would give this Pokemon above average sweepiness (120 to be exact). I'm sure we'll want at least above average tankiness as well (about 130 maybe). So the end result is that the Pokemon is balanced... kinda like Gyarados is.

Speed affects sweepiness a great deal, and hence the attacking prowess of the Pokemon. Those are the dangers I was talking about. If people want this kind of utility Pokemon, then feel free to do so... just don't bitch when you don't manage to create a stat spread that is fast AND defensive within the limits of my applet!

 

[Aldaron]

(note the following is not a spread submission, just something I was having fun with)

Yea, I used your applet when thinking of potential spreads for this thing, X-Act.

I settled on:

75 HP / 85 Atk / 90 Def / 75 SpA / 85 SpD / 140 Spe

It gave a physical sweepiness of 128, or rank 2 and moderately good.
It gave a physical tankiness of 113, or rank 1 and above average.
It gave a special sweepiness of 120, or rank 1 and above average.
It gave a special tankiness of 108, or rank 0 and average.

It's overall rating was 266, or very good. BST was 545.

Pretty balanced in the HP and attacks / defenses with high Speed. That's just the way I envisioned a perfect utility guy.

I'd like to emphasize you guys use the applet as a marker for your BST, and not the simple BST and conceptions you might have of the BST number.

 

[X-Act]

My point was that that example stat spread is obviously balanced, and not defensive. :) And actually it's slightly biased to offense.

Imagine making a 140-speed Pokemon that is also defensive. Something like 120/75/110/75/110/140 would be the bare minimum spread that is defensive and having 140 speed. This is not what we want, hopefully!

So basically, if you want high speed, vote for balanced, not defensive. That was my point about being careful with good defenses + high speed. (Your stats spread has only average defenses in fact.)

 

[latinoheat]

meh i would like a fast pokemon but nothing close to 140, something around 105. One attacking stat(75-80) just good enough that it can do good damage with its stab move against weaker pokemon or those hit super effective, but cannot really make good use out of anything unstabbed.

 

[Time Mage]

Speed should be high, I fully agree with that. Specially considering that, if we want it to be somewhat sturdy, some EVs will have to go to the defensive stats, maybe all the EVs. So a very high speed with no EV investment (really strange, I know) might be useful.

 

[Sunday]

I'm all for quite low Atk/Satk Stats. I'd be happy with between base 65 to 70. All it'll be running in a single STAB and it shouldn't have too many other offencive options anyway.

This is, of course, all regardless of the other stats.

EDIT: I urge everyone to have a play around with X-Act's Base Stats Ratings calculator. Using it has given me a much better understanding of the next few poll that are coming up. 140 Speed with base 65 Offences, 100 HP and 90 (S)Def gives a bias to Defence of -13.3. In the polls -13.3 doesn't seem like it's defencive enough, when in actuality the speed simply bumbs it's offencive capability up and it has great defences. If I had my way everyone would spend 15 minutes playing around on this before voting on most of the upcoming threads, as you really do need at least a basic understanding of how this works. Hopefully I can give a decent explanation in the OP...

 

[TAY]

High speed is exactly what I want, but I think that making it too high would be a mistake. Even with low defenses, a 140 speed poke using a screen essentially has double in one of its defenses, since it will pretty much always be able to screen before it gets hit. Setting up reflect in Garchomp's face is one thing, but I think that being able to set up reflect/light screen (I am assuming that it will have at least one of those since they are staple-ish support moves) on just about every other poke (and on things with speed boosts) seems a like it would be really good, to an unfair extent. I don't think we should be making pokemon that are useful on every single team.

Support Jumpluff with Encore/Sleep Powder etc is already annoying as fuck to deal with, so a support pokemon with better speed and likely better defenses, attack power, typing, and movepool is probably overpowered.

I support 100 - 110 Speed. Anything more makes it faster than almost every commonly used poke. Anything less just isn't any fun.

 

[Buckles]

While I do like the idea of high speed, 140 seems a bit too much. While it may seem like splitting hairs, I would support 125-130, tying (or passing) Weavile and Dugtrio. I've been playing with the base stat rating app (props to X-Act, btw), and I like this spread: 110/65/95/80/110/130. I like the high HP to shutdown Blissey with Sub and, assuming it can BP, to pass those big Subs.

 

[Dane]

140 might be a bit high, but it needs to be faster than Syclant, if nothing else. Therefore, 122+ or bust!

 

[Raj]

I think the 140 speed was an excellent idea. This will allow it to utilize Encore and such other moves most effectively. The only instance that we really see Encore going first, thus leaving the user in control is Wob over Zong, not exactly high speed. I think the offensive stats seem appropriate for the reason that hopefully this thing will get some decent stat-up moves to aid in the baton pass utility path.

 

[Elevator Music]

I'm not a huge fan of the high Speed to outspeed Ant. Because even with Base 140 Speed, it still needs either to basically max out Speed (it's fairly close to maxing out) with a neutral nature or run a positive nature and a good 120-ish EVs.

Neither of those really help the defensive capabilities, which already aren't high to begin with.

 

[latinoheat]

i suggest nothing higher then 115 at the max, leave weavile alone it gets enough shit from bronzong and skarmory as it is.

 

[Elevator Music]

...I repeat, why does it matter? Just as an example, if we gave it 125 (O POOR VILE), we hit 286. Without any investments in speed, it's still "slow". In fact, I like that Speed because it's just fast enough to be faster than all the bulky slow pokemon (you are literally 1 point away from outspeeding every JollyGyara), which is what I think is good for a support pokemon.

We aren't threatening the fast pokemon by giving this guy a high base speed. Unless you wanna run +Speed and a ton of Speed EVs of course. =/

 

[TAY]

140 might be a bit high, but it needs to be faster than Syclant, if nothing else. Therefore, 122+ or bust!

Why does it have to be faster than Syclant? I don't think we should be making a poke that can switch into every non-scarfed poke and Encore/Screen. We should be careful not to make it too useful.

 

[yoshi!]

i suggest nothing higher then 115 at the max, leave weavile alone it gets enough shit from bronzong and skarmory as it is.

The fact that it's weak to Ice is reason enough to be faster than it, IMO.

Base 130-140 speed seems about right on a utility pokemon.

Defences I'd say.... 95/100/90. This gives it good defences, without being overboard. It needs to be able to take a hit.

Attacks, I'd say Atk about 65, and SAtk about 40. Low attacking stats, because I believe this pokemon was not meant to attack.

so 95/65/100/40/90/140 is about right for me. This has :

A BST of 530
Average (Rank 0) physical sweepiness
Good (rank 3) physical tankiness
Very bad (rank -4) special sweepiness
Moderately good (rank 2) special tankiness.

Overall rating is 239 - Good.

What do you guys think about this? Any good?

 

[TAY]

lol, that would give it better defenses than Swampert and more speed than Jolteon. Obviously it has more weaknesses, but don't you think that's still a bit ridiculous? The impression I get from the Utility Concept is that we're going to be giving this poke a pretty good movepool, so I don't think that Swampert's defenses and the highest speed out of any usable OU is something we should be doing.

As X-Act touched on before, high speed + high defenses is probably something we want to avoid, mainly because it will make the new poke overly difficult to kill (we don't need another Cresselia/Blissey) and will force us to avoid offensive stat-ups (imagine Suicune with 120 Speed and a good movepool). I like the idea of forcing the player to use its resistances to gain the advantage, not its stats. If our poke has Encore/Reflect (common support moves) then it will be able to switch in and either take a hit --> reflect, or: the opponent uses a non-damaging move --> you encore. I don't think the player should be able to do this risk free. That's not to say that giving it decent defenses is a bad thing, but if it has great (swampert level) defenses then it shouldn't be as fast as ninjask. It's very likely that a support pokemon will be a stall killer, there's no need to make it an offense killer as well (this ties into my previous post where I mentioned making it "too usable").

I was thinking something like 90/75/80/85/85/105

That way it is fast enough to outrun the base 100's and Garchomp, but not so fast that it can get the jump on everything. The defenses are decent, so one side of them could be emphasized if the player wished. The attack stats are usable. Again, I'm assuming that this thing is going to have a pretty monstrous movepool.

 

[DougJustDoug]

140 speed would be ridiculed to death! Please don't do that to me....

You guys don't have to take all the shit on the server. For better or worse, many people think that I make all these pokemon. Even those that know it's a community project, think that I can somehow "fix" any pokemon we have implemented.

Every time I log in, I get pounded with complaints about Syclant and Rev, mostly Syclant. Syclant's outrageous speed is one of the big bitching points.

If we give this thing anything higher than about 115 speed, I guarantee I will get assassinated on the server. Something about speed just makes everyone a critic.

I'm all for a fast pokemon, but if we get into the Dugtrio-Weavile range, we are just begging for jeers of "Fanboy!" If we exceed the 130 ceiling -- (Yes, it's a ceiling. Everyone expects Jolty, Crobat and Aero to be at the top of the speed food-chain.) -- then we will be a laughingstock.

Please, please, please -- even if it's just for PR sake -- don't give this pokemon freakishly high speed.

 

[User 12783]

After careful consideration I've found something more balanced but with a little lower speed.

95/70/95/85/90/110 BST = 545

Using X-Acts BST Tool I've found this to be able to tank and sweep (even though this is not what we aimed for I think it should have one strong Attacking Stat).

The Physical Tankiness is Rank 3, or Good while the Special Tankiness is Rank 2, or Moderately Good
Physical Tankiness is 135 while Special is 129.

The Physical and Special Balance has a slight bias to Special. It is -7.9 to be exact.

There is no bias to Offense/Defense which I think is good so it can be an all around Pokemon.

The Physical Sweepiness is 109 or Rank 0: Average. The Special Sweepiness is Rank 3: Good (shouldn't be much of a worry, since the Speed made most of the Sweepiness so high).

Overall Rating = 340 (Very Good)

I made this so it wouldn't be too powerful of a force while containing Tankiness so this was the best I could come up with without making the Speed 140 or higher (this maybe utility but it shouldn't have that much speed). If you guys want it to be 140 Speed it can outspeed a lot of the OU Pokemon even Weavile which I think (my opinion) is overpowering.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I've been messing around with X-Act's stat rater for some time and have come up with something I like:

90/75/110/65/90/110

Physical Sweepiness: 117 (Above Average)
Physical Tankiness: 148 (Very Good)
Special Sweepiness: 102 (Average)
Special Tankiness: 125 (Moderately Good)
Overall Rating: 317 (Very Good)

Was trying to get something with good speed plus good defense. Still doesn't seem right in my eyes, but it's a start. Also I agree with everyone that against 140+ speed. That's way too much in my opinion and I it really limits how sturdy this thing could be in the long run.

 

[omgthatkid]

I really want this to be fast as well. But I have to agree with Sunday. I want this to be special biased in terms of offense, since we really don't see credible special attacking Dragons/Ground in OU. I'd suggest a set like:

105/50/95/101/88/111

It's a bit random-looking, I know. But for some reason I like the Special Attack at 101. The defenses are bulky, but aren't overly bulky. It's fast, beating Garchomp, Infernape, and Gengar if necessary, but you don't need to focus on that stat. It comes to a 550 BST. I really want to nuke its attack stat so we can focus more on other stats like defenses and speed. We can level this Pokemon out by making it's offensive movepool limited, like said before, in order to prevent this Pokemon from having a quality "sweeping" movepool. That's just me of course.

 

[Urza]

this thing isn't supposed to be able to attack. repeate, PURE UTILITY. there shouldn't be talk of tanking or sweeping (as much as i love tanks).

i don't think there should be an attack stat higher than 65, personally. just enough to not be totally hopeless, but not enough to really damage anything.

my stat spread was very similar to GT's:

90/65/110/60/100/125

speed puts it below jolteon, crobat, aerodactyl, deoxys-e and some ubers, but ties with weavile and co. fast, very fast, but not game breakingly so.

defenses and typing allow it some survivability, and if it's equipped with heal block, it could very easily chip away at things if it needed to (not that this would be a common occurance, but you never know)