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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
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The other options have virtuly no chance of winning, I dont think we need to use up another day voteing on this topic.
We gave people ample time to resubmit their votes (the few people who have missed that day will not affect the outcome of the vote) if you miss the day of the poll hard luck. We can't delay everything to wait for a few people.
We gave people ample time to resubmit their votes (the few people who have missed that day will not affect the outcome of the vote) if you miss the day of the poll hard luck. We can't delay everything to wait for a few people.
You've still yet to answer this, despite me asking it 2-4 times by now:
How long is long enough to wait for people to get their votes/revotes in? One day isn't enough, even with an additional day of warning apparently. In other polls we've seen that if it goes on for two-three days the number of votes becomes faint, and it devolves into discussions about future polls or the such.
If we're just waiting for everyone to get their votes in, polls will have to be a week long, just so we can get those who can only vote on the weekends, AND those who can only vote while at work during the week.
What's the median?
I haven't answered it because there shouldn't be a time alotted for this.
If you change a poll, as in, half way through, add a another ability and take it out later, you should have an entirely new poll. I don't agree with ever setting a time limit for revoting; the time limit, if there cannot be a new poll for some reason, is however long it takes for every person to revote.
Of course, you can save time by simply creating a new poll.
If you change a poll, as in, half way through, add a another ability and take it out later, you should have an entirely new poll. I don't agree with ever setting a time limit for revoting; the time limit, if there cannot be a new poll for some reason, is however long it takes for every person to revote.
Of course, you can save time by simply creating a new poll.
But then you can say it isn't being democratic because the people who voted in the last poll may not have had time to log on and see a new poll to vote in. Or they do log on and see it, but think it's the same poll. Either way, a small group of people won't get their optimal vote in.
While I do agree it should've been restarted when it happened, that was a while ago and it was never really brought up then. It wasn't until after the results were posted that anything was said. It may just be a coincidence, and I'm sure it likely is, but still you have to admit the timing looks bad.
While I do agree it should've been restarted when it happened, that was a while ago and it was never really brought up then. It wasn't until after the results were posted that anything was said. It may just be a coincidence, and I'm sure it likely is, but still you have to admit the timing looks bad.
Which is probably be bad in our case based on "authoritarian" definition. BTW, what ability was added halfway throughout the poll? I don't remember adding a new ability into the poll halfway in.
There isn't any problem redoing this whole thing, just not enough incentive to go ahead with it. I have to take into consideration the two side of this issue. On one hand, the poll should have been restarted when an option was democratic asked to be removed in all fairness to those that realized that their vote might be null&voided soon. On the other hand, people had ample time to edit their vote or noticed the weather poll which does involves Greenhouse place on the poll. I also have to think that the timing of this discussion seem fishy to me which BTW, why hasn't the whole issue haven't been pointed out earlier? If you knew something was wrong, why not mention it ASAP?
Fine...I'll do a repoll, it's not like we're in a hurry anyway.
First of all, let me say that I feel very sorry for G_T because he has needed to make quite a few decisions this CaP concerning if a poll should be closed or not.
As for my take on the whole thing, I suggest we leave this poll as it is. This, admittedly, may be biased because I did vote fore both of the winners, not because I didn't want Greenhouse to win, but because I saw them as the best option, but it is also a blowout. Rock Head and Battle Armour have 45 and 44 respectively while third place (Leaf Gaurd) has only 21. If a repoll had been done when Greenhouse was removed, I'd fully support a repoll, but now that results have been posted and there is a clear cut winner, this should be called. I think that people had plenty of time to change their vote, and the majority of them did change their vote. Just because they did not make it in on time does not mean that they should get the chance to change it. Going back, just because we had a few late art submissions, did we redo the poll just so people could vote on them? No, they were late. As I said before, if a new poll had been made as Greenhouse was taken off, I'd support it, but this was not the case. I'd say to get over it, but I'm not that kind of guy, but ultimately this is Gothic_Togekiss's decision as he is the TL. If a new poll is made, I will gladly vote for Rock Head and Battle Armour again.
As for my take on the whole thing, I suggest we leave this poll as it is. This, admittedly, may be biased because I did vote fore both of the winners, not because I didn't want Greenhouse to win, but because I saw them as the best option, but it is also a blowout. Rock Head and Battle Armour have 45 and 44 respectively while third place (Leaf Gaurd) has only 21. If a repoll had been done when Greenhouse was removed, I'd fully support a repoll, but now that results have been posted and there is a clear cut winner, this should be called. I think that people had plenty of time to change their vote, and the majority of them did change their vote. Just because they did not make it in on time does not mean that they should get the chance to change it. Going back, just because we had a few late art submissions, did we redo the poll just so people could vote on them? No, they were late. As I said before, if a new poll had been made as Greenhouse was taken off, I'd support it, but this was not the case. I'd say to get over it, but I'm not that kind of guy, but ultimately this is Gothic_Togekiss's decision as he is the TL. If a new poll is made, I will gladly vote for Rock Head and Battle Armour again.
If we do a repoll, can we at least make it like a spillover poll, and remove the abilities that didn't even break double digits? If anyone thinks those have a chance they're kidding themselves. Otherwise we're likely to end up with near identical results.
the identical results would kind of be the point. i donno, i say just include em all.
and GT, i dont want you to think you're doing a poor job! this has been the toughest CAP yet and I think you're running it swimmingly. you've dealt with some of the most controversial issues pretty well, and you've had to deal with heat from above and below. it's gonna turn out great, just keep it up!
and GT, i dont want you to think you're doing a poor job! this has been the toughest CAP yet and I think you're running it swimmingly. you've dealt with some of the most controversial issues pretty well, and you've had to deal with heat from above and below. it's gonna turn out great, just keep it up!
I would like to defend eric here and say that his love of the democratic process made Revenankh the 11 week beast he was. Whenever eric called for a second poll, I listened, because I knew he was the sole champion of repolling. Go back through the old threads and you will see where I asked his opinion on the matter. The fact that he does NOT want a repoll shows a lot.
If people are questioning the democratic nature of the poll then they needs to to be new poll.The one of the defining points of this process it is community process and no one person view is more important another.
I revoted Rock head and Battle armor as a bandwagon(sheep) vote because i wanted the ability poll to end.I think it is travesty that fire/grass does not get ability that takes advantage of the sun but i seem to be a minority.
If we do a repoll/vote i don't another ability would beat the two already chosen,Trust me i want the ability poll to be over but this project is based on being fair and community project.It can't look unfair in one little part.Do a new poll
I revoted Rock head and Battle armor as a bandwagon(sheep) vote because i wanted the ability poll to end.I think it is travesty that fire/grass does not get ability that takes advantage of the sun but i seem to be a minority.
If we do a repoll/vote i don't another ability would beat the two already chosen,Trust me i want the ability poll to be over but this project is based on being fair and community project.It can't look unfair in one little part.Do a new poll
Thank you Hyra, and Aldaron if you look back you will see that I added at least 2-3 polls to Revenankh and 1-2 on Syclant. Please stop being so.... aggressive in your style of discussion, you seem to seize every opportunity to attack those with whom you are discussing.
I have said previously that I had great respect for you, I still do but it is dwindling fast, I am not wanting an argument but could you please try to be a bit more... friendly towards us? Maybe review your posts before posting to see if they are provocative, or argumentative?
We really don't need another poll GT, we have a VERY clear winner and have spent a long time on this poll already, remember you have executive power over when polls finish and how long they last, its up to your good judgement.
Eric the espeon forgive me, I am new here and therefore maybe don't have the high opinion of you that I should, I believe that you shouldn't get to tell GT what to do any more than anyone else should. I'm not trying to be provocative or argumentative, and for the record I don't think Aldaron is either.
All I am trying to do is defend the democratic process which by my admittedly limited understanding, is at the core of the CAP project.
I can assure everyone there is nothing fishy about my timing or motivations, I wish I had said this sooner but I am not on smogon 24 hours a day and I did not call for a new poll until today.
The fact that lots of people, both for and against a new poll have said that they wished this had been flagged up sooner (i.e. when Greenhouse was first removed) and that they would have supported a repoll then suggests that they see that it would be more democratic but that they just wish to move on now. But there is no fatal deadline that we have to meet! If we spend 1 more day on the ability poll in order to preserve fairness and democracy, we have succeeded, even if the same two abilities still win.
Onto the secondary point, eric, yes we have two Very clear winners on the ability poll but we have people admitting that they only voted them as part of a bandwagon, and I'm Sure that some people voted them simply to ensure Greenhouse did not win. If that is the case then clearly a repoll is necessary. Remember tensions were very high when Greenhouse was getting lots of votes. Many people would have done all they could to ensure we didnt give Woodman autosun. It was all they could do to vote for the two other most popular abilities.
It is my personal opinion that a repoll would Not have the same result. If you eric are so adamant the result will be the same, lets have a friendly bet, you and me. It's all quite irrelevant to the question of whether we Need another poll.
If so many people are agreeing that a repoll would be fairer, then it Really Doesn't Matter that the old poll had clear winners. If we wish to preserve a fair democratic process, a repoll is imperative.
All I am trying to do is defend the democratic process which by my admittedly limited understanding, is at the core of the CAP project.
I can assure everyone there is nothing fishy about my timing or motivations, I wish I had said this sooner but I am not on smogon 24 hours a day and I did not call for a new poll until today.
The fact that lots of people, both for and against a new poll have said that they wished this had been flagged up sooner (i.e. when Greenhouse was first removed) and that they would have supported a repoll then suggests that they see that it would be more democratic but that they just wish to move on now. But there is no fatal deadline that we have to meet! If we spend 1 more day on the ability poll in order to preserve fairness and democracy, we have succeeded, even if the same two abilities still win.
Onto the secondary point, eric, yes we have two Very clear winners on the ability poll but we have people admitting that they only voted them as part of a bandwagon, and I'm Sure that some people voted them simply to ensure Greenhouse did not win. If that is the case then clearly a repoll is necessary. Remember tensions were very high when Greenhouse was getting lots of votes. Many people would have done all they could to ensure we didnt give Woodman autosun. It was all they could do to vote for the two other most popular abilities.
It is my personal opinion that a repoll would Not have the same result. If you eric are so adamant the result will be the same, lets have a friendly bet, you and me. It's all quite irrelevant to the question of whether we Need another poll.
If so many people are agreeing that a repoll would be fairer, then it Really Doesn't Matter that the old poll had clear winners. If we wish to preserve a fair democratic process, a repoll is imperative.
Sorry I hadn't read the whole thing through when responding to eric's post. Thank You GT, if that's your final decision then presumably that's the end of the discussion? I hope so, I need sleep!
Lol, I'm going to ignore eric's pleas for apparent "civility" because they are kind of unnecessary :/. If you can't handle the way I speak, which is, admittedly, slightly aggressive, toughen up kid.
I don't really care what you did for the previous projects...the bottom line is that currently you are asking us to forget about the integrity of this Democratic process in order to expedite a supposedly obvious poll.
Since when does an obvious result give credence to undermine the Democratic way? I don't think it does ever, hence my "so screw the Democratic process" comment.
If you don't appreciate that, well, I'm sorry man. I've been speaking like this the entire time (referring both to the project and to my time here at Smogon), and if you have a particular problem with my style or feel that I am personally attacking you, you could always take it up with a Moderator and ask for me to be infracted.
As a side note, I don't really mind how the poll is going to be administered, whether new or run off, so my full support is behind whatever GT decides.
Also, I don't really know what Urza is referring to, but I agree with him when he says that GT has done a fine job so far in probably the most controversial CaP Project yet. Tough decisions create tough criticism, so don't anything personally man, you're doing a great job ;)
Finally, as a second side note directed solely to eric...If your respect is granted based on some arbitrary facade of civility and not on what is true and correct (or at least the pursuit of objectively sound "truth"), then I frankly do not care at all for your so called "respect."
Seems to me like you just want some "respect" for supposedly being a longtime member of this project, and feel that I should give it to you and those other "longtime members" of this project. Well, that isn't happening until you earn my respect, which would be gained through repeated (understandable too btw) logical claims, objective reasoning, and an adamant desire to adhere to the Democratic process.
I'm sorry, but there is no way in sweet Hell that I am going to not be aggressive when someone is attempting to undermine our precious Democratic Process simply because he feels that the result is obvious.
I don't really care what you did for the previous projects...the bottom line is that currently you are asking us to forget about the integrity of this Democratic process in order to expedite a supposedly obvious poll.
Since when does an obvious result give credence to undermine the Democratic way? I don't think it does ever, hence my "so screw the Democratic process" comment.
If you don't appreciate that, well, I'm sorry man. I've been speaking like this the entire time (referring both to the project and to my time here at Smogon), and if you have a particular problem with my style or feel that I am personally attacking you, you could always take it up with a Moderator and ask for me to be infracted.
As a side note, I don't really mind how the poll is going to be administered, whether new or run off, so my full support is behind whatever GT decides.
Also, I don't really know what Urza is referring to, but I agree with him when he says that GT has done a fine job so far in probably the most controversial CaP Project yet. Tough decisions create tough criticism, so don't anything personally man, you're doing a great job ;)
Finally, as a second side note directed solely to eric...If your respect is granted based on some arbitrary facade of civility and not on what is true and correct (or at least the pursuit of objectively sound "truth"), then I frankly do not care at all for your so called "respect."
Seems to me like you just want some "respect" for supposedly being a longtime member of this project, and feel that I should give it to you and those other "longtime members" of this project. Well, that isn't happening until you earn my respect, which would be gained through repeated (understandable too btw) logical claims, objective reasoning, and an adamant desire to adhere to the Democratic process.
I'm sorry, but there is no way in sweet Hell that I am going to not be aggressive when someone is attempting to undermine our precious Democratic Process simply because he feels that the result is obvious.
It probably going to be my final decision on this matter since my gut feeling is now telling me to redo the poll, though it probably be a spillover since when are the odds one of the lesser option going to win this?
[mindless thinking]I wondered how Doug feels about this decision?[/mindless thinking]
@ aldaron. i feel like this CaP has brought up some major issues about what the CaP is all about, with the issue of weather especially. that's what GT has handled well. and i said it because the post immediately following mine started with "i feel sorry for GT"...and i felt bad. i dont feel sorry for him, he's just doing his job, but i did want to clarify.
The CAP project does try to be very democratic in its processes, however there are several aspects of the project that are intentionally UN-democratic. For example we do not have a democratic process for determining the slate of voting options. Basically, we all present arguments in the discussion, and we HOPE the TL includes it on the poll. But, the TL can pick whatever they like. There's not even a formal appeals process. We do this for the sake of efficiency. In that regard, we imbue the TL with fairly wide powers to ensure the project keeps moving along. We do that for a reason -- this project is very dependent on momentum. If we rush things along too quickly, people get frustrated. If it moves too slowly, people get bored. It's the TL's job to find that middle-ground.
Regarding the poll being democratic or not, it is entirely up to the discretion of the TL. Here's the TL responsibility list, with the key parts bolded:
Also, I think GT has been through enough of the these polls that he knows damn well what will happen if we poll again. I agree with Hyra, that if eric is not demanding a new poll, that's saying a lot. eric is constantly asking for redos and re-polls on every little nuance of the project. I tend to be more authoritarian, but I try to listen when others tell me I'm bullying the process.
To everyone, I ask this question -- Are you asking for a re-poll simply to prove a point? I agree, the process was compromised. And the results are not 100% pure. However, do any of you HONESTLY believe the results will be different? If none of you REALLY believe the results will be different -- then please stop asking for a re-poll. If you want the admission that the results have been somewhat compromised -- I'll say it clearly. I agree. You are right.
But, this is not some court of law where cases are decided on a "technicality". We are not FORCED to re-poll, if it realistically is not going to change the outcome. GT might even accede to your demands, it's really up to him. But, I hope we don't go through another vote, if all of you doubt it will change the outcome.
That's the difference I see here. At least when eric demands re-votes -- I know he honestly believes the results will change. BTW, they never do. They end up being "a formality" --- every time.
Is this really necessary?
Regarding the poll being democratic or not, it is entirely up to the discretion of the TL. Here's the TL responsibility list, with the key parts bolded:
So, GT is under no obligation to follow the "democratic process" in the technical interpretation of the votes.
Also, I think GT has been through enough of the these polls that he knows damn well what will happen if we poll again. I agree with Hyra, that if eric is not demanding a new poll, that's saying a lot. eric is constantly asking for redos and re-polls on every little nuance of the project. I tend to be more authoritarian, but I try to listen when others tell me I'm bullying the process.
To everyone, I ask this question -- Are you asking for a re-poll simply to prove a point? I agree, the process was compromised. And the results are not 100% pure. However, do any of you HONESTLY believe the results will be different? If none of you REALLY believe the results will be different -- then please stop asking for a re-poll. If you want the admission that the results have been somewhat compromised -- I'll say it clearly. I agree. You are right.
But, this is not some court of law where cases are decided on a "technicality". We are not FORCED to re-poll, if it realistically is not going to change the outcome. GT might even accede to your demands, it's really up to him. But, I hope we don't go through another vote, if all of you doubt it will change the outcome.
That's the difference I see here. At least when eric demands re-votes -- I know he honestly believes the results will change. BTW, they never do. They end up being "a formality" --- every time.
Is this really necessary?
I didn't mention this earlier, but this! The only thread in which the front runner of the previous poll did not win was the first typing thread for Syclant, because of the horrendous type combinations Steel made with the other two options. Every other single time the front runner of the first poll, even of the first few hours, has won all following polls. Spill-over is just a way for those who voted for something different to be bitter and vindictive. I did it, and now realize that it does not help the project at all.
Late reply is late.
I have to be honest here, this has been one of the most annoying and difficult decision I have to make here. I'm going back and forth on this issue throughout my mind with all that been said about it and I'm officially want to say that I need to stick to one discussion and go through with it. I have decided to go with my gut feeling and not redo this poll. Sorry jagged and anyone who wanted to redo this poll but my gut is telling me I'm making the right decision.
I have to be honest here, this has been one of the most annoying and difficult decision I have to make here. I'm going back and forth on this issue throughout my mind with all that been said about it and I'm officially want to say that I need to stick to one discussion and go through with it. I have decided to go with my gut feeling and not redo this poll. Sorry jagged and anyone who wanted to redo this poll but my gut is telling me I'm making the right decision.
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