CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Discussion

[Dominion]

I'm under the assumption that we are picking a second type for this pokemon. I raise the question; Do we have to? I know that we aren't there yet but I feel that alot of us are basing our opinion on a typing that will pair well with another typing. Yes, A second Stab is always useful, but there is always the drawback of extra weaknesses. So I implore everyone to base their opinion on a singular type in a vacuum, without the aid of a second type, extra coverage attacks (because we don't know yet what it'll be able to learn) and abilities.

I know I'm pressing the issue for Water quite strongly but it simply comes out ahead in this regard.

If I honestly had to pick another type or two that could function on their own without the aid of a second type or ability they would have to be Fighting and Poison. These three types truly work well on their own and have plenty of useful abilities within themselves that give this CAP plenty of options right from the get-go.

 

[Str0ngbad]

We will have a poll for secondary typing. No secondary typing will be a possible candidate but even with water I don't think we would be ending up with a monotype so a certain level of assuming a second type, as long as it isn't a specific one, is reasonable..

@Midou: Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry I misunderstood.

 

[pherslee]

Alright, I think I'm going to put my support behind Poison for my typing. It's a really great defensive typing, sacrificing the ability to do major damage on the offensive. However, Levitate or something similar would have to be used to avoid Earthquake, which I believe is one of, if not the most used move in the game right now. We can't leave our CAP sitting around with that weakness to Ground just waiting to be exploited.

If Ground is covered by an ability like Levitate, then it will only have the Psychic type to deal with, which isn't the biggest threat in the world.

 

[Korski]

The arguments against a Steel-typing in this thread are ludicrous. Resistances are everything on a Pokemon designed for countering, and Steel's 11 resistances (U-turn, Pursuit, Outrage, Air Slash, Shadow Ball, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Explosion, Toxic, Psychic, Stealth Rock, and Bullet Punch, as prime examples of each) offer the best possible base typing available. Fire/Fighting/Ground weaknesses? Boo hoo. Secondary typing of a defensive CAP will mitigate the primary typing's weaknesses with near 100% certainty, no matter what that typing is. Water is an obvious choice; it's safe. Steel is the smart choice, however, as this CAP will need the variety of easy switch-ins that the Water typing cannot offer.

Argument: Steel typing must be compensated for its weaknesses by secondary typing and abilities and will therefore limit our options in upcoming polls.

Hardly. If the Ground/Fire/Fighting weaknesses were so crippling, there wouldn't be 10 Steel types in OU. I won't lie and say Water/Poison/Psychic/Dragon/Bug won't come up in the secondary typing discussion or that Levitate/Flash Fire will not come up in the abilities discussions, because they will, but they aren't in any way required simply by Steel typing (although they are still excellent options). Now, think about all the Steel types in OU: Jirachi, Heatran, Empoleon, Scizor, etc. What makes them so successful is their ability to switch in in a variety of situations and to do it often, because of their resistances, since, as I said, resistances are everything, so much more so than weaknesses. We have no idea what this CAP will look like or how it will interact with OU threats, so don't argue that Mence or Tran or anything else will beat Steel CAP because Steel has weaknesses to moves they tend to carry. That's a really premature argument, since, according to the concept, this CAP will be able to customize itself to deal with them specifically, so the argument is moot at this point.

Argument: Steel types typically have _____ attributes, and we don't want those for this CAP.

Steels are slow. Steels are primarily defensive. Steels have bad movepools. None of these things are relevant to CAP, as we have complete freedom to give it whatever stats/moves/abilities we want. There's not much to say on this one, so I'll leave it at that.

Argument: Steel types limit defensive versatility because teams are overprepared for them.

GOOD. If I'm switching my utility counter CAP into something I have customized it to counter, I don't want it switching out because it doesn't think it can beat me. That's the point. If I want DDMence out of the picture and I have a Steel-type CAP perfectly ready to counter it, I want Mence to stay in and watch itself get taken down. That's a successful utility counter.

I'll leave it here for now, since these seem to be the biggest arguments against Steel at the moment.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Well said, Korsk. I've been arguing those points pretty adamantly so far, but virtually no one listens and you get a bunch of "No, but THIS!" return arguments. Steel is the perfect primary typing for this CAP for all of the reasons Korsk mentioned and then some that have been covered elsewhere. Steel just allows you to do so much more than any of the other proposed types do; it gives us the flexibility and the resistances necessary. That's it.

 

[ferron]

i personally would like to make a normal for this CaP, but in all honesty steel may be the best typing for it. its resistances allow for the switch-ins that it will need, while the weaknesses can be used as bait. it will be a great poke for mind games, since the opponent won't know whether to risk their poke against a possible counter or to switch.

 

[Xiom]

GOOD. If I'm switching my utility counter CAP into something I have customized it to counter, I don't want it switching out because it doesn't think it can beat me. That's the point. If I want DDMence out of the picture and I have a Steel-type CAP perfectly ready to counter it, I want Mence to stay in and watch itself get taken down. That's a successful utility counter.

I'll leave it here for now, since these seem to be the biggest arguments against Steel at the moment.

Just curious, how do you expect to customize a steel type to beat DD mence when it carrys moves like EQ and Fire Blast.

Especialy since you said it didn't need to compensate for it's weaknesses in one of your earlier arguments.

Hide

All I can think of is enough speed to outspeed it after DD, enough [Sp]Atk to KO it with an ice move (Ice shard could solve the speed problem but it needs a higher ATK stst for that), and enough [Sp]Def to take a possible EQ or Fire Blast on the switch, allthough it could do without that.

I know Steel is a good typing, but I can't imagine a Steel type pokemon countering a Heatran or infernape without secondary typing and ability to cover it's weaknesses. Well, the outspeeding it + KO thing might work but that would make it an all out sweeper over an actual counter.

And that would drasticly reduce our options for future decitions.

Resistances isn't allways needed, I've built a Porygon2 set wich can take 2 Draco Meteors or Outrages from any LO Slamence. (Ps, I was creative with the held item) Allthough that one would fail if they used anyhting outside of DDance, Outrage or draco meteor as i switched in. (or something choiced not named Draco Meteor or Outrage)

But Intimidating EQ had a major role in it's sucess tho.

No I didn't use type resist berry and i know they won't work

 

[AlphaBravo]

Resistances isn't allways needed, I've built a Porygon2 set wich can take 2 Draco Meteors or Outrages from any LO Slamence. (Ps, I was creative with the held item) Allthough that one would fail if they used anyhting outside of DDance, Outrage or draco meteor as i switched in. (or something choiced not named Draco Meteor or Outrage)

Which held item?

 

[Dominion]

Korski, your bold statements frighten me. But your counter arguements concerning Steel type do make sense. Although I still feel that Steel is not necessary. What make the 10 Steel types in OU so powerful are their secondary typing. Thier secondary typing makes up for their glaring weaknesses. While Steel's resistances are great, they are only useful for a moment. Think about it, how often is a Steel type hit twice with the same move (That is uneffective)? Very little. Infact after you switch in your steel type to abosrb the not very effective blow, what does your opponent do? Either A) switches to one of the many many counters in the current meta-game that counter steel type all too well. or B use the other move that rounds out their coverage, almost always able to hit Steel for either nuetral or Super Effective. Yes, This is 100% theorymon but it's simply an example.

I simply feel that Steel type are so common that they are their own weakness. They already force most teams into bringing 1,2 sometimes even more pokemon to counter them. I simply do not want this cap to be another one of those Steel types that simply take advantage of their Steel type on a defensive point of view.

Also, by making this pokemon a Steel type, you have effectively forced it into competition with other Steel types for a pokemon slot. Lets say we do make a very aggressive and offensive Steel type out of this CAP. It will essentially be competeing with Metagross for a slot. Heatran too. Jirachi? We would have to take into consideration, while we make this CAP, that it would have to have a niche above these already prodominate Steel type. We would literally have to make this pokemon stand out by a large margin.

While having alot of Steel types is never a bad thing, Having multiple Fire/Fighting/Ground weaknesses is. Sure, we can remove these via ability or second typing, but I'd like to keep these aspects open in a ery broad light. By being steel, we're forced to address the problem of it's weaknesses. I simply feel we'd literally just be making another Bronzong or other defensive Steel type. Like I said earlier, We can make it offensive oriented, but if we were going to do that, why even pick Steel in the first place? It's not exactly a type we think of when we think "Amazing type coverage". So, Lets start with a type that will mix well with nearly every other type: Water. So when we get to the second typing poll, we can say "Hey, Steel isn't so bad when paired with Water/Poison/Fighting/Etc." If we pick Steel now, it practically garantees we'll be picking a type that nullifies it's weaknesses or provides much better offensive coverage or make our decision on it's ability(ies) bias.

Also, What resistances does this cap need? Dragon? Normal? Ghost? What exactly do you think of when you think "This CAP needs to counter X"? Do you want this CAP to specifically counter Bulky Offense? Dragons? Hyper Offense? Stall? I feel we need to answer this question now. As the original idea is simply too broad. Steel is great for countering Dragons but there are other types that do other jobs more efficiently.

Yes, I know Utility Counter is the idea, but we may need to narrow this by a tad. We need to pick out what exactly it can counter. Mabye it can counter all forms of Dragons but needs to be tailored specifically to counter Latias or Mixmence. Mabye we want to to be able to counter weather. Then Water or Grass would be nice.

We also need to answer the question "How?" Stall these threats out? Outspeed and outdamage? If we want this CAP to counter via brute force then Dragon may be a fine choice. If we want it to Stall out our counters then Steel is a fine choice indeed.

But, Since we do not know, or perhaps we do not want to pick what it's broad goal will accomplish yet, I still suggest Water. I will not repeat myself as to why, I've done that too much already. But I will say that this CAP cannot do Stall, Bulky Offense, Hyper Offense, Perfect Coverage, Tank and be Cleric all at once. We need to decide on 2 possibly 3 that it'll be able to do via it's movepool and Stat spread before we jump the gun on Type. Because if we pick Steel, and say we want it to stop weather effects and entry hazards and hit back with force, then we probably should have picked Water or Ghost.

Anyway, back on the topic of Steel, I do not think it's flexible at all. It's only great advantage is massive number of resistances and it's huge glaring weaknesses that are taken advantage of anyway. In all honesty, Any pokemon this CAP tries to counter will simply grab a fighting/fire or gorund move in order to stop it if we pick steel. It's weaknesses are too common. Many pokemon already learn moves that can handle Steel type rather well, but not many learn powerful electric or grass moves. Grass Knot is a possible threat, but that's handled by weight reduction if we feel necessary. How many pokemon learn Thunderbolt? or Energy Ball/Grass Knot? Then ask yourself how many carry Earthquake? Flamethrower? Close Combat? Focus Punch? Then ask yourself how many more pokemon would be carrying these moves once they caught wind that this CAP is out to get them? Yes, I know, secondary typing yada yada. But like I said, I do not want us to limit this pokemon's secondary typing or ability just because we picked Steel.

Sorry, If I repeated myself alot, I'm in a bit of a rush so I had little time to think. No excuse but I do apologize. Steel simply pidgey holes us into a defensive spread. I do not want this pokemon to be Jirachi V2.0.

P.S. since when did we want this cap to counter entry hazards and status? Didn't we already make a CAP able to do that? Once agian I ask the community: What exactly do we want this thing to be able to counter in a broad sense? We need to make a broad list, it would make it easier for us to give this CAP the tools to do it all if it was fine crafted to do so.

 

[ferron]

Just curious, how do you expect to customize a steel type to beat DD mence when it carrys moves like EQ and Fire Blast.

Especialy since you said it didn't need to compensate for it's weaknesses in one of your earlier arguments.

Hide

All I can think of is enough speed to outspeed it after DD, enough [Sp]Atk to KO it with an ice move (Ice shard could solve the speed problem but it needs a higher ATK stst for that), and enough [Sp]Def to take a possible EQ or Fire Blast on the switch, allthough it could do without that.

I know Steel is a good typing, but I can't imagine a Steel type pokemon countering a Heatran or infernape without secondary typing and ability to cover it's weaknesses. Well, the outspeeding it + KO thing might work but that would make it an all out sweeper over an actual counter.

And that would drasticly reduce our options for future decitions.

Resistances isn't allways needed, I've built a Porygon2 set wich can take 2 Draco Meteors or Outrages from any LO Slamence. (Ps, I was creative with the held item) Allthough that one would fail if they used anyhting outside of DDance, Outrage or draco meteor as i switched in. (or something choiced not named Draco Meteor or Outrage)

But Intimidating EQ had a major role in it's sucess tho.

No I didn't use type resist berry and i know they won't work

abilities and moves can be used to get rid of any possible weakness. DDmence itself is an example of this, using moves that specifically target those that could wall it.
there are a plethora of moves and abilities that can either take away a specific weakness or take advantage of those that would will to use your weakness to their own ends.

 

[DarkSlay]

@ Admiral Korski:

You make good points, but after reading your initial arguments, I am curious as to why you do not mention the handling of Defensive threats. It seems that you focused way too much on handling attacks and such and not the entire metagame. With the greatest of respect, do not forget the presence of Defensive threats roaming around, like Swampert, Blissey, Skarmory, and others. What will the Steel resist help with there? Sure, CAP 10 may be initially thought of as a counter to top-tier offensive threats, but according to the Concept itself, it must be able to counter any Pokemon individually. That includes Defensive and Stall oriented Pokemon, yes? The Steel resists would be a non-issue for this point, and near completely useless (except with the immunity of Poison and the immunity to Sandstorm, although since CAP 10 is a counter type of Pokemon, I sincerely doubt it will stay out for more than a turn or two per switch). Can the Steel typing benefit against Stall, Trap, and Wall Pokemon as much as a more balanced typing can? I feel that by choosing Steel, we would then be overcentralizing on offensive attacks and not passive damage, like Pokemon who focus on phazing and status as forms of damage. To me, a type like Electric is balanced enough to take on all spectrums, because of not only the lack of weaknesses to all moves bar Ground, but because of the neutrality its Electric type attacks offer as well. It is therefore more balanced to give it the opportunity to take on individual threats offensively AND defensively. Having a ton of resistances doesn't mean it has the potential to retaliate well through typing. While this can be addressed with specific moves, we can only go by what the main typing is. With even three or four weaknesses, we will then have a harder time trying to individualize against top tier threats. Resistances are nice, but with CAP 10 focusing on individualizing, we want it to come in on every type of Pokemon and have some way of crippling it. Not just to come in on resisted moves.

Now, to your arguments:

Arguement #1:

Good point. A lot of the top used OU Pokemon are Steel types. However, look at your four examples. We'll throw in Skarmory too. Now, let's look at the Steel types of UU: Registeel and Aggron. What makes these five so different than the Steels of UU? Their secondary typing. Would Jirachi be better handled if it was weak to Fighting? Of course. But, the Psychic typing reduces the amount of weaknesses that it encounters from its Steel typing. Empoleon gets rid of Fire, as does Heatran. Skarm removes Earthquake and takes neutral from Fighting. Scizor (and Forretress) take neutral from Fighting and Ground. To be honest, it seems that the secondary typing is what makes the Steel types of OU so great. Look at Registeel: it's weak to all three of Steel's weaknesses, all common attacks in OU. Without a secondary typing, Registeel is completely limited in the OU environment, thanks to the presence of Infernape, Machamp, Flygon, etc. That, to me, shows that there is something indeed troubling about starting out with a Steel type. Therefore, I agree that for a Steel Utility Counter to work, it is absolutely necessary to have a second typing. Whether this limits options in upcoming polls is purely opinion, however.

Arguement #2:

I am no expert on the CAP Process, nor have I been here for a great amount of time. However, if we are trying to implement CAP 10 into the standard metagame, we should follow the limits that other OU Pokemon adhere to. You don't see Starmie getting Earth Power so it can deal with Electric types. I don't believe that we want to give CAP 10 a ton of moves and abilities to make it different than what its typing suggests. We might be able to give it whatever we want, but we should be reasonable as well. Giving something like Will O' Wisp on a Steel type would be irrational. The typing should reflect the kinds of moves it has, in my opinion. Steel has few support and offensive options outside of Toxic, Roar, Earthquake, and other common things. This isn't an argument as to why Steel typing is bad, but rather to state that we shouldn't immediately dismiss the negatives of Steel, or any other typing, just because we can add moves and abilities of any nature.

Arguement #3:

I see a problem with this line of thinking, however. For CAP 10, there will be no mystery as to why it's being used. If you switch in CAP 10, there's a good reason you did: it counters the Pokemon. Your opponent will know this, and switch out to another Pokemon. The one fault I see with this concept is the fact that CAP 10's purpose will be easy to spot once it switches in and uses an attack. While it's true that you can play mind games, remember that while CAP 10 can individually counter any Pokemon, in return, any Pokemon has a chance to counter CAP 10. A good switch, and CAP 10 is useless. This is why eliminating the number of weaknesses is of greater importance than increasing the number of resistances: we want it to be able to counter the opposing Pokemon with as little of risk of taking huge amounts of damage as possible. Switching in on a resisted attack is nice, but having a counter switch in who can easily deal with your weaknesses is not. This is why I support Electric and Poison. One weakness (two for Poison), a few good resistances, and great neutral coverage both offensively and defensively.

 

[tangramman]

I'm going to have to vote for Fighting.

The decision on the Primary Typing is down to what weaknesses we don't want. Having weaknesses to 3 extremely common attacking types forces CAP10 down certain paths that we needn't even think about in the first place if we choose a good typing. Unless we make a Water/Steel w/ Levitate or a Steel/Flying with Flash Fire, there is no way CAP10 will counter Salamence, in any capacity. I would rather have a neutrality to Dragon attacks, than a resistance while being weak to said-Dragon's other moves.

Fighting seems like the best choice given that its weaknesses are either poor attacking types or uncommon. Psychic and Flying weaknesses are neither common, nor crippling, certainly not in the same way of Steel, Poison or Electric. Even if we hypothetically gave our CAP10 a Steel typing along with a weakness-mitigating ability/secondary typing, we are still forcing CAP10 to be wary of many Pokemon that would not have been a concern had we not given it the Steel typing in the first place. The same idea applies to Poison and Electric, but to a lesser extent. Fighting's few common weaknesses and useful resistances allow CAP10 to switch in with little worry, in regards to both hazards and dangerous, unpredictable Pokemon. The only other type that acts in the vein of Fighting is Water, whose only weakness worth mentioning is Electric. The reasons I'm against Water is due to its already large prevalence in the metagame and its weakness to a semi-common attacking type; if Water was made the Primary, it seems Arghonaut would fill the role in the same way, thus we would learn little more than when Arghonaut was created.

tl;dr
Steel = overwhelming weaknesses outweigh the fantastic resistances; decent possible secondary typing
Electric = viable choice were the Ground weakness were to be dealt with
Poison = Electric
Water = overdone, but would work regardless
Ghost = weakness to Dark is simply too crippling, with WoW and Reflect not being enough of a safety blanket
Normal = weakness to Fighting is unfortunate, could work, not desirable
Fighting = Water

My opinion?
Fighting
Water
Poison
Electric
Steel
Normal
Ghost

Bold = preferential, Italics = undesirable

EDIT: My only concern with choosing Fighting would be the STAB opportunities might overshadow the actual concept of CAP10, with some users using the powerful Fighting moves to instead just muscle through the opponent instead of just tailoring CAP10 to counter threats. The same problem could arise with a Water typing as well. As far as I'm concerned, either Water or Fighting could work, so long as we choose a proper secondary typing and ability to accommodate the weaknesses. The primary typing is by far the most important step, considering it wholly decides how we arrange CAP10 from here. Steel isn't good enough of a primary typing without an ace in the hole to back it up, while Fighting and especially Water pair very well with just about any type.

EDIT #2: CAP10's concept is that it will counter whatever the user of CAP10 needs countering, whether it be DDSalamence, SubCMJirachi or Blissey, while being weak to threats it was not meant to counter. I, of all people, shouldn't be reminding people of the concept.

 

[ferron]

@drkslay

we haven't even decided which specific pokes we plan on countering yet, so we can't say what we are able or unable to do.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Edit: What Ferron said.

Edit x2:

Whether this limits options in upcoming polls is purely opinion, however.

The options for CAP10 were limited even before the actual type poll began. From the 17 types that were discussed here, about 10 of them have already been removed from the equation. We only have about 7 viable types yet, that seem's pretty limited to me. The secondary type discussion/poll will be more limited since everyone will be thinking about which of the remaining six "good" type would go along with the winning type. I really don't see how being limited to something is horribly bad when we're already limited to something now.

 

[DarkSlay]

@ Ferron:

To be honest, that point makes no sense to what I said. Look at the main concept description:

This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.

This means that it has the opportunity to counter almost every Pokemon. What it can and cannot counter individually should come down to the moveset one chooses or the ability one chooses, which is what the concept implies. The concept is concrete. We know exactly what we want to counter: the OU metagame. That's what so great about CAP 10: we can individually decide what we want to counter. We might not be able to fully say what we can counter because specifics like moves haven't been chosen, but we can't just blindly say that we shouldn't take every threat into account because we're not "specifically countering" certain Pokemon yet. That would mean, technically, all typing discussion is a moot point.

 

[ferron]

@ Ferron:

To be honest, that point makes no sense to what I said. Look at the main concept description:

This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.

This means that it has the opportunity to counter almost every Pokemon. What it can and cannot counter individually should come down to the moveset one chooses or the ability one chooses, which is what the concept implies. The concept is concrete. We know exactly what we want to counter: the OU metagame. That's what so great about CAP 10: we can individually decide what we want to counter. We might not be able to fully say what we can counter because specifics like moves haven't been chosen, but we can't just blindly say that we shouldn't take every threat into account because we're not "specifically countering" certain Pokemon yet. That would mean, technically, all typing discussion is a moot point.

i was specifically targeting your statement that you made before the 3 arguments. you know, the one where you argued that a steel typing would not be ideal for dealing with defensive threats.

let me show you why your logic doesn't work:

it is justifiably impossible to make a movepool that has the potential to counter everything in the OU metagame. when the movepool discussions go up, people will be discussing moves that can be used to counter specific pokes, or specific types. without knowing what moves become allowed for movepools, then we don't know what this has the potential to counter.

the reason this is relevant to your earlier discussion is that it impossible to say whether it will be able to counter defensive threats without knowing the moves that will be allowed in the movepool design. for example, if taunt and a grass move are allowed, then all three of the defensive threats you have listed become more-or-less useless. there is nothing stopping a specific type from learning those moves. also note that one of the moves i just said (taunt) is not an offensive move, since you didn't want it to be only able to counter pokes offensively. it is that simple.

so before you start listing what kinds of threats a specific type can deal with, remember that we have no idea what we have access to yet, move-wise.

 

[DarkSlay]

@ Ferron

Ah, I see what you mean now. Perhaps my first argument isn't as strong as my others. It just seems quite hard to go about talking resistances and defenses without thinking about what to counter, that is all. You're right in that sense, though. We shouldn't make the moveset huge for both sides of the spectrum. A good move here or there (like Taunt) makes sense.

However, I still think the neutrality argument is valid. Good to see discussion like this, though. Gets me excited. :P

Edit: @ Gothic Togekiss

However, out of the seven possible types available, some are better suited for a role like this than others. This is why we're having good discussions like this, no? To pick which type tops the others. Steel has very common weaknesses, which unlike something like Bulky Waters, needs a secondary typing to counteract common moves. The secondary would then be chosen to add less weaknesses, yes. Picking the worst out of three choices is still limiting yourself to the lesser choice (not to say Steel is the worst or even bad, but an example). We just need to decide which of the seven good choices is the greatest.

Also, keep in mind that I was referring to Admiral's statement about that being an issue. I wasn't disagreeing with him, but rather being neutral.

 

[T-major]

abilities and moves can be used to get rid of any possible weakness. DDmence itself is an example of this, using moves that specifically target those that could wall it.
there are a plethora of moves and abilities that can either take away a specific weakness or take advantage of those that would will to use your weakness to their own ends.

thats the thing though; choosing steel just because we can fix it's problems with abilities and moves isn't a reason to choose steel. at that point, you're already assuming that using the needed abilities would be possible. what if it's not? what if doing it's intended job requires an ability or secondary typing that doesn't fix steels problems? at this step in the process, we don't know for sure what CAP10 would need. taking that into consideration, why not choose a type that doesn't have such glaring weaknesses that need such rigorous accounting for? the only other types that do this are Fighting and Water. Electric and Poison suffer from a ground weakness, which can be taken care of, but only with levitate or secondary type, which is the same problem steel has, just to a lesser extent.

Fighting still gets the vote from me. as I've said, it has useful resistances, and weaknesses that are uncommon and/or easily dealt with.

Arguement #2:

I am no expert on the CAP Process, nor have I been here for a great amount of time. However, if we are trying to implement CAP 10 into the standard metagame, we should follow the limits that other OU Pokemon adhere to. You don't see Starmie getting Earth Power so it can deal with Electric types. I don't believe that we want to give CAP 10 a ton of moves and abilities to make it different than what its typing suggests. We might be able to give it whatever we want, but we should be reasonable as well. Giving something like Will O' Wisp on a Steel type would be irrational. The typing should reflect the kinds of moves it has, in my opinion. Steel has few support and offensive options outside of Toxic, Roar, Earthquake, and other common things. This isn't an argument as to why Steel typing is bad, but rather to state that we shouldn't immediately dismiss the negatives of Steel, or any other typing, just because we can add moves and abilities of any nature.

one problem with that. we need this Pokemon to fill a roll that no other Pokemon does so far. if we need it to have X move in order for it to do it's job, but also need Y type for the same reason, we can't just say "whoops! guess one of them is going to have to go!" when they don't match up. thats just silly. frankly, the only problem with it is that some people would find it "odd" from a design standpoint, which is all based on opinion in the first place.

 

[Drybones]

@Drybones: I don't understand your reasoning - why should we go with Steel + Levitate? There seems no reasoning.

Why are resistances so important to the metagame? Sure, it's nice to resist a lot of types which are used a lot, but just because Steel can do that, we should pick it? Similarly, Normal typing has a lack of resistances, so we should ignore it for that sole reason? That reasoning makes no sense. So what, Steel can resist Flying type, Poison type, Steel type, Ghost type, Psychic type and Dark Type. Big deal - most of the moves of these types aren't often used competitively as attacking types, save Pursuit for Dark type and Toxic for Poison type. A huge slew of effectively useless resistances doesn't mean it's a good typing. It has horrible weaknesses - almost every team can easily deal with Steel types with half the team.

Water typing is the most useful - it has two weaknesses, one of which only being used for countering Swampert. It has a few resistances, but they resist common types - Water, Fire and Ice, with Steel as an add-on. It's useful in that it doesn't take much to combine it with another typing, but equally can be left alone and do well. That's a major plus in my book when looking at a PRIMARY typing.

Steel always seems to need that secondary typing to make it work. Now, I might be wrong, but the in the top 20 threats, almost all of them can run a Steel-countering move in their movesets. Heatran is popular for the Fire/Steel typing being unique, as well as having one of it's weakness made into it's strength due to Flash Fire. Metagross takes neutral damage from CC, which is a godsend considering the potential damage that move can cause.

Meanwhile, Vaporeon is a Bulky Water with only Water typing. It can do the job presented to it well and not worry so much about failing, and similarly, so can Suicune. Plus, Gyarados and Swampert trade one SE hit for 4x in the other, and both remain popular choices in OU.

Resistances are not key - Blissey proves that, as does Tyranitar, who resists a few minor types (Flying; Psychic; Ghost; Normal and Poison) but only one popular move type - Fire, and takes 5 SE hits and 1 4x hit. Yet both are popular and brilliant Pokemon. Inversely, Steelix, which is the first "true" Steel type - one with high defence and able to take hits -, has been relegated to UU for a long time, and even there, it's numerous resistances are outbalanced by it's weaknesses.

Yes resistances are not key when creating some kind of "popular and brilliant pokemon." My argument, which got deleted (whee!) was that we need something with resistances that help it counter something specific, and weaknesses that hinder it from countering just about anything else. The reason why we would give steel levitate is that if one intended to use this 'mon to counter this guy:

Ttar @ whatever
--dragon dance
--crunch
--stone edge
--earthquake

then you would need levitate to not get EQed to death. At the same time, when you choose levitate over say, flash fire or heatproof, it means you can't counter another guy (pyroak comes to mind).

"A huge slew of effectively useless resistances doesn't mean it's a good typing. It has horrible weaknesses - almost every team can easily deal with Steel types with half the team." This, ironically, sums up my argument as to why we should use steel for a utility counter-- something that you can tailor to counter a specific threat that thereby loses or is less great against the rest of the metagame.


Finally, I was trying to defend my argument with hypotheticals, not polljump.

EDIT: I'm leaning toward Steel right now because it's the only thing I could think of that could adapt to counter all kinds of different threats. I'm thinking a normal or poison type would get taken out quick by a +1 outrage. It is however clear that this thing is going to need a lot of help from abilities and moves, so really any versatile type would be good for me for now.

 

[swordmaster117]

People, remember: NO POLL JUMPING! Were deciding a MAIN type right now, not certain of a second type, ability, moves, stats etc. that this poke will/should have, so none of those should play a part in deciding what type this poke will have. We should be considering the other pokemon in the metagame, popular moves/types, and categories of pokes (tanks, sweepers, walls, etc.) that this poke will have to deal with.

Therefore, it is most logical to pick a type that is balanced with regards to weakness/resistances while still retaining some viability (aka not normal) to allow the user to customize it to their wants and needs.

My order of preference (with types not listed as ones that are unreasonable, overpowered, or useless in regards to weakness/resistances):
Water
Fighting
Electric
Poison

 

[Deck Knight]

Steel typing might be too good in some instances. Basically what Steel looks like it's going to do is hijack everything into an easily forseeable end product: Steel/Flying with Flash Fire/Motor Drive. This makes this a better all-purpose wall than a utility counter. It's really more like a pokemon trying to counter everything at once than being something truly versatile. It's way of switching to address threats is merely going to be adding up some different coverage moves.

Such a theoretical pokemon seems too good. It's a rigid fanboyish end result that anyone could see. If you give a mon the most solid defensive typing in the game combined with the two abilities that grant immunity to one weakness each, you can indeed come in on basically everything. You become an all-purpose everything counter. Why does this need to be called a utility counter when it's theoretical typing and ability is such that it can't be Poisoned OR Burned(/Paralyzed) and is generally immune to hazards?

The only way to mitigate such a mon is to deny it the expansive movepool it needs to address threats or seriously cut back on the stats. Then it just becomes a blob for taking attacks and winning through attrition. If Steel does win I will do everything in my power to make sure it gets as broken as humanly possible. Steel just starts us down the road to making an ultimate wall. Who needs creativity when you can just slap together a fanboy-mon with no readily exploitable weaknesses of any kind?

Steel just makes this another "slap me on I'm Steel" pokemon, where it will join the ranks of all its other dual-typed Steel brethren. All 10 of them.

 

[swordmaster117]

Steel typing might be too good in some instances. Basically what Steel looks like it's going to do is hijack everything into an easily forseeable end product: Steel/Flying with Flash Fire/Motor Drive. This makes this a better all-purpose wall than a utility counter. It's really more like a pokemon trying to counter everything at once than being something truly versatile. It's way of switching to address threats is merely going to be adding up some different coverage moves.

Such a theoretical pokemon seems too good. It's a rigid fanboyish end result that anyone could see. If you give a mon the most solid defensive typing in the game combined with the two abilities that grant immunity to one weakness each, you can indeed come in on basically everything. You become an all-purpose everything counter. Why does this need to be called a utility counter when it's theoretical typing and ability is such that it can't be Poisoned OR Burned(/Paralyzed) and is generally immune to hazards?

The only way to mitigate such a mon is to deny it the expansive movepool it needs to address threats or seriously cut back on the stats. Then it just becomes a blob for taking attacks and winning through attrition. If Steel does win I will do everything in my power to make sure it gets as broken as humanly possible. Steel just starts us down the road to making an ultimate wall. Who needs creativity when you can just slap together a fanboy-mon with no readily exploitable weaknesses of any kind?

Steel just makes this another "slap me on I'm Steel" pokemon, where it will join the ranks of all its other dual-typed Steel brethren.

I completely agree, espcially with the fan-boyishness and the attempts to make it broken.

 

[MariaMoments]

Not attempting to poll jump, but here's my big question- What ability/stats/moves could we possibly give a Steel pokemon that would let it beat Machamp, Lucario, and Breloom?

I just can't see it happening. For this reason, I have to keep pushing for Ghost, or at least Poison.

 

[swordmaster117]

Not attempting to poll jump, but here's my big question- What ability/stats/moves could we possibly give a Steel pokemon that would let it beat Machamp, Lucario, and Breloom?

I just can't see it happening. For this reason, I have to keep pushing for Ghost, or at least Poison.

Why not water or fighting?

 

[Slyguy46]

I'm going to rescind my earlier thoughts in favor of pursuing the Poison type. I believe that the Poison type deserves some representation in CAP, and all the points that other members have pointed out make sense.