CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Discussion

[T-major]

@Raikaria
this is my first CAP, so I can't speak for past instances of these moves being proposed; this time however, said types just fit the bill for the concepts goal. Grass would be unique, yes, but not very effective in a utility counter.

Next to Fighting, Electric is what I support most. my only problem with it is the fact that Levitate would need to be heavily considered, to the point where it's almost required. I really don't think abilities should be locked down as such, but instead can be chosen to fit the situation. However, since we don't know what is needed, it may work very well. I say keep I in mind regardless, because 1 bad weakness is better than the 3 steel has.

Not to poll jump (or contradict what I just said above...) but I think a Fighting/Electric type with Levitate would be a good combo. Electric neutralizing Fightings weakness to flying, and Levitate taking care of ground, leaves only Psychic types which are uncommon. it also still resists Rock, Bug and Dark, as well as Electric and Steel.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I think the primary reason people are so oriented around Steel is because it resists Dragon. That makes sense, as Dragon attacks are powerful, but honestly. Look at the most common attacking types in OU...Ground, Water, Electric, Dragon, Fire, Rock, Fighting, Ice. That's approximately in order of most common to least. Steel resists three of those, is weak to two, and neutral to two. That's not really very fantastic.

I think the frequency of the moves used, as far as resistances go, is very important to consider here. No one cares if our CAP is going to be immune to poison and resistant to flying and shit. It does give it more opportunities to counter more things, yes, but the opportunities taken away by the fact that it's weak to very commonly used attacks make up for this fact.

Granted, we can give it secondary typings and abilities that make up for this. But then, we could do that with anything else too. For instance, we could make a Bug/Ground Pokemon with Thick Fat and a dragon-typed variant of Water Absorb as its ability choices, and it'll fulfill the concept of a utility counter extremely well (not to poll jump, just using an example). I really believe people need to think outside of the box with this, instead of sticking with the "comfortable" choice of steel/blah with [compensating ability] and end up turning this into a better Bronzong or something.

 

[Midou]

Let me begin by saying what needs to be said. This thread is starting to turn into a joke. There are infractions, in particular poll-jumping, to the highest degree that it's past the point of tolerable levels. Beej, where you at.

I'm not being disillusioned here. (I'm addressing multiple of your points in tandem to avoid quote-raping the thread and ending this in a tl;dr) Steel does trade a boatload of resistances for very common weaknesses. These weaknesses do need to be addressed somehow. How they get addressed is varied, though, between secondary typing and abilities. That's a logical progression, and its end result is no more predictable than what any other type would have to do. The other types suggested offer more neutralities, fewer resistances, and force the CAP to have tremendous bulk to be able to counter anything at all.

The fact is, no matter what type gets chosen, CAP10 will have to be designed to take hits. If there is any competition to that claim by anyone, you will want to re-read the concept until such point that your argument against it has evaporated. Furthermore, I will reiterate that because CAP10 will have to address only certain threats at once, it having a few crucial weaknesses is important. It must be beatable, and giving it few and uncommon weaknesses while making its bulk tremendous enough to survive numerous attacks (potentially with reliable recovery) is problematic. A neutral typing will result in it becoming a wall. If it has those clutch weaknesses, where only some can be addressed at a time, it will do exactly as it needs to - that is, deal with specific threats in as customizable a fashion as having a fixed typing can be

Let's start with the positives. I admire your passion with this CAP, and some of your arguments have good premises, but most of it uses inductive reasoning, and that's why they are not as sound as some others, along with multiple fallacies. Your failure to understand and effectively retaliate against the sound arguments DK makes using both inductive and deductive reasoning is exemplified by this part of your post. Just look at your last bolded line "A neutral typing will result in it becoming a wall". Where the hell did you pull that from? And how can you even say that at ALL in comparison to dual steel types that have been established, and will possibly be established by the ideas you put forth?

I'm not going to pick apart all the rest of your argument, because it does so on its own. Your argument for steel flexibility has some ground, but is far from perfect; this is directly because of the two sentences you used after your comment about disillusionment. DK puts it directly in that steel is an all or nothing type. You have to reconsider that, as by the content you replied with does not address this in any appreciable fashion.

tl;dr version @ steel supporters:

• Very rigid typing as explained numerous times
• Akin to Multitype in that the concept is very likely to self-create itself
• True LACK of ability to switch in, except for dragon, in comparison to a more neutral typing
• Bad offensive stab

None of these are particularly impossible to overcome for a pokemon with such valuable resists and other qualities. However, taken all together, this combination fails as the weakness provided by steel is greater than the sum of its parts, both positive and negative. Steel may be an extremely good choice in regards to secondary typing, but NOT primary.

 

[Azule]

I actually agree with Deck Knight, do we honestly need a more useful Bronzong?
Still voting Fighting or Poison. I dont want another Steel or another bulky Water.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

There are infractions, in particular poll-jumping, to the highest degree that it's past the point of tolerable levels. Beej, where you at.

There's no discussion left to be had without speculating about the future polls of the CAP. We've already backed up our claims. We need the vote. This just keeps going until the thread gets shut down by BEEJ.

"A neutral typing will result in it becoming a wall". Where the hell did you pull that from?

How does your neutrally-typed CAP10 come in on a +1 Outrage from DDMence without being a wall? A +2 CC from Lucario? +1 Waterfall from Gyarados? Without resistances, it will have to carry enormous bulk to be able to counter any of these threats (among the others I have not listed). If it has enormous bulk to neutral attacks, that means it has enormous bulk to all neutral attacks - making it an all-purpose wall. Just think about it a bit, it'll make sense.

but most of it uses inductive reasoning, and that's why they are not as sound as some others, along with multiple fallacies. Your failure to understand and effectively retaliate against the sound arguments DK makes using both inductive and deductive reasoning is exemplified by this part of your post.

Most of the cases made against me are actually against the straw man that is the assumed end-product of a Steel being the primary typing for this CAP. If you want to argue logic or make claims against my reasoning, do so via PM and keep it out of this thread. If you can actually make an assertion against a point I make, do so, and I will address it in kind, otherwise, keep it to yourself as it isn't furthering the discussion on any level.

Aside from your aggressive tone in implying that my argument basically disintegrates itself, in which case I'd much prefer you "pick it apart" so I can show you the err of your ways, I'll address the rest of your points in turn.

DK puts it directly in that steel is an all or nothing type. You have to reconsider that, as by the content you replied with does not address this in any appreciable fashion.

Elaborate, then. Make the case that it's rigid, don't act like it's already made properly and conclusively and that I should be the only one addressing any points. The end result isn't nearly as predictable as you so claim it to be.

I'll take the rest of your tl;dr points one at a time.

Akin to Multitype in that the concept is very likely to self-create itself

And you rail on me about inductive reasoning? Jeez. Anyways, Multitype is an ability, a typing, a stat distribution, and practically a movepool. Steel as the primary typing is none of these things. Steel simply provides it resistances to come in on whereas every other suggested typing relies on stat spread bulk with neutralities. You apparently want a wall, I want a utility counter.

True LACK of ability to switch in, except for dragon, in comparison to a more neutral typing

Steel has 12 types to switch in on. It is arguably the most capable of switching in of any of the suggested types. Its weaknesses, even if we assume they don't get accounted for, do not prevent it from switching in safely against the myriad types it resists.

Bad offensive stab

Steel's not winning any awards offensively, but this Pokemon is meant to cover specific threats. It will generally do so with coverage moves, regardless of the typing it receives. Water won't be countering Dragon without Ice, Poison won't be covering Ground without Ice/Water, etc. This applies to whatever type is chosen, so the potent STAB is arguably less sensible with respect to the concept.

 

[Vaz]

Hmm, now this one is a bit tricky. You want a type that can send pokemon fleeing and bringing in a pokemon that can stop it, so you need some sort of bulky type. At the moment I am thinking Water because it only has 2 resistances on its own and can effectively stop a lot of threats with a good typing. I was going to say Ghost as we need more rapid spin blockers, but I would hate to see Tyranitars flocking the field as a counter to it and there already is a Steel/Ghost combination to stop its Dark STAB from destroying the common ghost.

 

[Deck Knight]

There's no discussion left to be had without speculating about the future polls of the CAP. We've already backed up our claims. We need the vote. This just keeps going until the thread gets shut down by BEEJ.

Aye. Not to mention infractions will be handed out by the appropriate people. We'll know we went off the reservation when we check our PM inboxes, thank you.

How does your neutrally-typed CAP10 come in on a +1 Outrage from DDMence without being a wall? A +2 CC from Lucario? +1 Waterfall from Gyarados? Without resistances, it will have to carry enormous bulk to be able to counter any of these threats (among the others I have not listed). If it has enormous bulk to neutral attacks, that means it has enormous bulk to all neutral attacks - making it an all-purpose wall. Just think about it a bit, it'll make sense.

I'm glad you asked that question. I was rambling on earlier about immunities with Ghost and a potential for Trace, which addresses +1 Mence Outrage by coming in soon as it sees Mence and avoiding the whole +1 Mence problem thanks to copied Intimidate. The reason I support Ghost specifically is because Fighting pokemon in particular are way too powerful offensively in OU, especially Lucario, Ape, Machamp, etc. There are also no small number of boosted Fighting moves ala SD Scizor. Skarmory would be considered a "wall," would it not? Even with one of the best defensive typings and great defensive prowess it still can't take many +2 CC's nor multiple Fire Blasts should it switch on a theoretical +1 Atk Mence. I remember back when DP first started people were dropping their jaws at the prospects for Heracross given it could now cleanly 2HKO Skarmory with Choice Banded Close Combat.

I also mentioned the anti-Explosion perk. Everyone hates random Explosion :-D

Most of the cases made against me are actually against the straw man that is the assumed end-product of a Steel being the primary typing for this CAP. If you want to argue logic or make claims against my reasoning, do so via PM and keep it out of this thread. If you can actually make an assertion against a point I make, do so, and I will address it in kind, otherwise, keep it to yourself as it isn't furthering the discussion on any level.

Well if you support Steel then it is necessary for our arguments that we assume your favored outcome is the selected outcome. There is no point in arguing against a Water or Fighting supported by railing against Steel. The problem with a primary Steel typing is it requires addressing before the pokemon becomes OU worthy. Let me use a bad Superhero analogy. If Types were Superheroes, Steel by itself would be Superman, best described as "with great powers come easily exploitable weaknesses." Apparently your planet being blown up makes its remnant fragments readily available. Anyway, what you do with a secondary type is to specify which types of kryptonite Superman is no longer affected by. Several typings jump the shark with this for an excellent competitive result that looks like it was ripped from fanfiction.net. (Steel/Grass with some Anti-Fire ability being the most unique and intriguing I've seen of yet, actually)

And you rail on me about inductive reasoning? Jeez. Anyways, Multitype is an ability, a typing, a stat distribution, and practically a movepool. Steel as the primary typing is none of these things. Steel simply provides it resistances to come in on whereas every other suggested typing relies on stat spread bulk with neutralities. You apparently want a wall, I want a utility counter.

Going to disagree that Multitype is a stat distribution, it certainly isn't that, although it was plaguing me exactly how to make it without turning it into another Dragon sweeper...

Steel has 12 types to switch in on. It is arguably the most capable of switching in of any of the suggested types. Its weaknesses, even if we assume they don't get accounted for, do not prevent it from switching in safely against the myriad types it resists.

But pokemon don't resist other types, they resist specific moves, and Steel has the pleasure of being weak to all the most common coverage moves. It's great you can switch into +1 Outrage. What about when you switch into Fire Blast or Earthquake because you aren't dealing with DDMence? Moves that you know every Mence of every stripe carry, and which naturally cannot be covered by a single secondary type. Steel is great in a metagame with choiced threats because it can come in largely with impunity given the right prediction, but for the cavalcade of LO sweepers and stat boosters it presents a nightmare that requires canceling out the kryptonite.

Steel's not winning any awards offensively, but this Pokemon is meant to cover specific threats. It will generally do so with coverage moves, regardless of the typing it receives. Water won't be countering Dragon without Ice, Poison won't be covering Ground without Ice/Water, etc. This applies to whatever type is chosen, so the potent STAB is arguably less sensible with respect to the concept.

I agree with this notion, and the biggest problem I have is that a type that can switch in on everything AND counter everything is not what utility counter is supposed to be. It's like SpD Skarm. If you don't pack Fire or Electric moves at a certain point in the game it will wall you merely via attrition: Roost recovers more damage than you can reasonably deal out. You can't break through its typing and defenses, it doesn't even need to hit you SE at the point. If it could it would be broken. It's very difficult to balance defenses by "requiring investment." People aren't going to invest in defenses unless its a viable wall. The reason I went through a litany of Steels and mentioned Colossoil was to bring up the point that mons with easily exploitable weaknesses will favor offensive over defensive spreads almost regardless of their Base Stats.

The other option of course given our Skarmory example is to take away reliable recovery. Or as I call it: "Build a better Bronzong."

 

[swordmaster117]

How does your neutrally-typed CAP10 come in on a +1 Outrage from DDMence without being a wall? A +2 CC from Lucario? +1 Waterfall from Gyarados? Without resistances, it will have to carry enormous bulk to be able to counter any of these threats (among the others I have not listed). If it has enormous bulk to neutral attacks, that means it has enormous bulk to all neutral attacks - making it an all-purpose wall. Just think about it a bit, it'll make sense.

But thats the point. Unless its specifically tailored to counter one of those pokemon, then it wont be switching in. It would be useless in this situation, but you would have another pokemon on your team to switch in instead.

 

[Dominion]

To make a TL:DR of Deck Knight's speech on Steel type:

By picking steel, we have already picked levitate and possibly a type that eliminates it's weaknesses. Thus, we have effectly reduced it to only using Levitate. Because no matter what the secondary ability is, Levitate will almost always be prefered. Our Secondary typing will not be picked based on what we want this CAP do it, it'll be based on what Steel can't do. We might as well name this pokemon: "The Steel CAP that is suppose to not have as many weaknesses". Thus, we end up with a Wall. Since we have built this CAP completely around it's Steel base, we have effectly created a pokemon that takes full advantage from it's resistances while minimalizing it's weaknesses. I.E. Bronzong V2.0.

We -could- try to make an offensive Steel type that ignores it's glaring weaknesses and doesn't have levitate. But then we have broken this CAP. Every pokemon and their grandma carries something to hit Steel hard. Whether it be SE or just neutral.

So my vote still hits Water.

 

[Xiom]

Rising Dusk i get your point off, to counter DD mence a netrual pokemon would need a good deal of bulk to survive that +1 Outrage.

But wouldn't a steel type need even more bulk to survive a SE +1 EQ?

Think about that for a second.

How does your neutrally-typed CAP10 come in on a +1 Outrage from DDMence without being a wall? A +2 CC from Lucario? +1 Waterfall from Gyarados? Without resistances, it will have to carry enormous bulk to be able to counter any of these threats (among the others I have not listed). If it has enormous bulk to neutral attacks, that means it has enormous bulk to all neutral attacks - making it an all-purpose wall. Just think about it a bit, it'll make sense.

I find this funny because Steel only resist 1 out of the 3 things you listed, and take SE damage from 1.

Even through secondary typing you take atlest Figting netrual (unless its steel-ghost). And last i checked +2 CC from lucario is the strongest out of the 3 so if it can take that while netrual then it shouldn't even need resistances for the other 2.

The only way to solve this problem is giving it steel ghost but then it's still netrual to Gyra's waterfall.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'll go ahead and post my opinions on Steel, Poison, and Fighting, as these three types are the ones being talked about the most.

Steel

Steel is an incredibly defensive typing, boasting a resistance to eleven types and an immunity to Poison. That is an amazing thing to have. However, no type can be that good, and in the case of Steel, it comes with Ground, Fire, and Fighting weaknesses. Let me just say that these three weaknesses are incredibly easy to combat. For example, Gyarados and Salamence make ideal partners if this Pokemon were to be kept pure Steel (even though it may not end up like that, but I can't be sure), because they are resistant/immune to all of them at once. I don't necessarily think these weaknesses are hinderances, even though they are relatively common. And anyway, we still have our secondary typing and ability discussions left, so we can patch up these weaknesses through them. Because Steel has so many resistances, Utility Counter won't be left "helpless" if you construct it to counter a few specific threats but your opponent does not carry them. I mean, if you want this Pokemon to be able to counter Gyarados 100% of the time, yet the opponent does not carry Gyarados, you still have those resistances to challenge other opponents. In other words, you aren't left with a sitting duck.

Through Steel's resistances and immunity, we score a resistance to Stealth Rock and U-turn, as well as an immunity to Toxic and Toxic Spikes. Since this concept is called a "Utility Counter", it's safe to say that this Pokemon is going to be focusing primarily on its overall defenses. A resistance to Stealth Rock gives it a much easier time switching into the Pokemon it wants to counter, while the resistance to U-turn makes it harder for the opponent to scout + deal damage to Utility Counter. The immunity to Toxic and Toxic Spikes is also an excellent trait to have, as these two effects are generally feared by many tanks and walls.

Poison

I find Poison a pretty interesting type. It only has two weaknesses in Psychic and Ground, the former being almost non-existent in the OU metagame, while the latter being one of the easiest types to remove/deal with. A good thing about these two weaknesses is that it makes Poison somewhat of a neutral typing. It really only has one common weakness, which is even better. With such a neutral typing comes a very bulky stat spread. This is why Blissey is such a fantastic special wall; Normal is not the best type, yet she has gargantuan HP and SpD. However, it only has three resistances which are worthwhile: Bug, Grass, and Fighting. Like Steel, the resistance to U-turn makes it less vulnerable to the scouting + taking decent damage at the same time. As for the Grass resistance, there aren't many Grass-type Pokemon in the OU metagame (Breloom, Ludicolo, and Celebi?), Grass is usually used by Pokemon that don't have STAB on it. These include Infernape, Heatran, etc., and this is what Poison has over Steel when it comes to that Grass resistance. Infernape threatens Steel easily with its STAB moves, and Heatran has its own Fire STAB; but, Poison is not weak to Infernape's moveset and only needs to be worried about Heatran's Earth Power. It should be noted that it's easy to remove that Ground weakness through secondary typing/ability. Fighting is the most handy resistance of the three, allowing it to be a decent counter to a lot of Fighting-types, like Lucario and Infernape. The only problem is that Poison doesn’t really fit in with a lot of other types, in my opinion.

Poison is also immune to Toxic and absorbs Toxic Spikes, which is indeed extremely helpful when it comes to countering.

Fighting

Like Poison, Fighting only has two weaknesses, yet they are pretty uncommon in the OU metagame if you ask me. Flying and Psychic are pretty rare. So, Fighting is yet another excellent neutral typing, possibly even better than Poison. It also packs the Bug resistance, meaning U-turn won’t scare it anymore. Dark and Rock are commonly used in the metagame, and having resistances to both of those are wonderful. That Dark resistance means Fighting will never worry about Pursuit, while the Rock resistance lets it take only 6% from Stealth Rock. These two traits, as well as its lack of weaknesses, makes Fighting one of the best standalone types that we can use. It’s incredibly neutral, so it’s easy to sculpt the way we want this Fighting-type to look like. Also, take a look at Hitmontop and Hariyama, two excellent defensive Fighting-types that were well without any secondary type.

If I were to boil this down to my preferences, I’d probably go Steel, Fighting, then Poison. However, Water is still on the top of my list for reasons already explained in my first post.

 

[Zystral]

I problem I have with Poison is that it lacks any key resistances, and we don't have the capacity to give it stellar stats.
Resistance to Fighting is the only possible upside I can think of. Sure, the Ground weak is removable and Psychic is just lol, but I think that non-resistance to Stealth Rocks, lack of any other notable resistances makes Poison seem pointless.
As well as that, when you make something Dual-typed in CAP, you should be looking to have the type support and complement each other as much as possible. Poison offers little to any types that it would be paired against, rather the second type supports Poison alone.

That said, I'd rather Poison over Electric seeing as Electric has next to no useful resistances bar Steel (Scizor and Metagross, perhaps Jirachi are the only things I can think of that commonly hold a Steel-type move). Electric might have useful STAB on its side, but we aren't really aiming for anything overly offensive, are we?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I find this funny because Steel only resist 1 out of the 3 things you listed, and take SE damage from 1.

Even through secondary typing you take atlest Figting netrual (unless its steel-ghost). And last i checked +2 CC from lucario is the strongest out of the 3 so if it can take that while netrual then it shouldn't even need resistances for the other 2.

You see, the Pokemon will get a secondary typing. It will have the abilities Levitate, etc. considered for it. Now, because of which one you choose for your specific instance of CAP10 on your team, you will counter certain Pokemon and lose to others. That sounds exactly like what CAP10 is supposed to do.

But wouldn't a steel type need even more bulk to survive a SE +1 EQ?

Read Fuzz' post. Even if we completely don't account or give the option to account for Steel's weaknesses, which is ridiculous in the first place, team options are there. Granted, CAP10 himself should be able to beat these Pokemon himself, but look!

Gyarados and Lucario only carry one of the types Steel is weak to at any given time. This means it can be dealt with by abilities or immunities elsewhere. Salamence Carries both Fire Blast and EQ, but with an immunity to EQ and potential neutrality to Fire in its secondary typing (plus enough bulk to take the Fire Blast and not be 2HKO'd), it'll be fine. I see this being completely reasonable with Steel as a primary typing, and not with any other possible type.

But thats the point. Unless its specifically tailored to counter one of those pokemon, then it wont be switching in. It would be useless in this situation, but you would have another pokemon on your team to switch in instead.

Exactly! These are such high-powered threats, that you can really only address one at a time if you want to. That sounds a heck of a lot like what we need for a utility counter to me. It counters specific threats as needed by the player, and is weak to others. That makes it fair. That makes it not "broken." That makes it a utility counter.

Aye. Not to mention infractions will be handed out by the appropriate people. We'll know we went off the reservation when we check our PM inboxes, thank you.

As much as I'd like to not get an infraction at barely 200 posts, I really am not one to turn down a good discussion with a respected member of the community.

I'm glad you asked that question. I was rambling on earlier about immunities with Ghost and a potential for Trace, which addresses +1 Mence Outrage by coming in soon as it sees Mence and avoiding the whole +1 Mence problem thanks to copied Intimidate. The reason I support Ghost specifically is because Fighting pokemon in particular are way too powerful offensively in OU, especially Lucario, Ape, Machamp, etc. There are also no small number of boosted Fighting moves ala SD Scizor. Skarmory would be considered a "wall," would it not? Even with one of the best defensive typings and great defensive prowess it still can't take many +2 CC's nor multiple Fire Blasts should it switch on a theoretical +1 Atk Mence. I remember back when DP first started people were dropping their jaws at the prospects for Heracross given it could now cleanly 2HKO Skarmory with Choice Banded Close Combat.

Trace is a possibility I've mused over a bit, and beats Mence/Gyara healthily all at once. But I feel as though Trace gives it the ability to counter a few too many threats at once. Virtually anything with Intimidate, Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, Motor Drive, or Flash Fire are all countered soundly at once. Heck, with Trace, CAP10 could even counter Pokemon like Blissey and so forth right off the bat given its ability to switch into status like a trooper. You could come in on Swift Swimmers in rain and outspeed them.. The list really goes on. I feel like for the purposes of CAP10, Trace covers just too much at once. I won't lie, though, it's a great option for countering Pokemon and am glad someone brought it up this far along. (It was mentioned in IRC and earlier in this thread, then forgotten)

And yeah, there are no shortage of Fighting-type moves. Particularly, I had a really neat idea for an ability when I was thinking of some end-products for Steel. I don't want to jump the gun too far, though, but suffice to say that a Steel-type could theoretically handle Fighting-type moves just as well as a Ghost. (That might give you a hint)

Well if you support Steel then it is necessary for our arguments that we assume your favored outcome is the selected outcome. There is no point in arguing against a Water or Fighting supported by railing against Steel. The problem with a primary Steel typing is it requires addressing before the pokemon becomes OU worthy. Let me use a bad Superhero analogy. If Types were Superheroes, Steel by itself would be Superman, best described as "with great powers come easily exploitable weaknesses." Apparently your planet being blown up makes its remnant fragments readily available. Anyway, what you do with a secondary type is to specify which types of kryptonite Superman is no longer affected by. Several typings jump the shark with this for an excellent competitive result that looks like it was ripped from fanfiction.net. (Steel/Grass with some Anti-Fire ability being the most unique and intriguing I've seen of yet, actually)

I don't think it's so limited, though. And because everyone likes seeing these things, I will actually list every possible secondary typing that offers at least one immunity/resistance/neutrality to a type Steel is weak to.

• Steel / Fire - Neutral to Fire, Levitate a definite possibility, possibly an anti-fighting ability
• Steel / Water - Neutral to Fire, covers lots of types defensively, could see levitate to handle ground, possibly an anti-fighting ability
• Steel / Grass - Neutral to Ground, anti-Fire ability very likely
• Steel / Poison - Neutral to Fighting, Levitate a definite possibility, perhaps coupled with an anti-Fire ability for options
• Steel / Flying - Tried and true. Immune to ground, neutral to Fighting, needs to now deal with only Electric and Fire.
• Steel / Psychic - We see enough of these, but neutrality to fighting and the Bronzong model are there.
• Steel / Bug - We've again got two of these in Forretress and Scizor, but it's great. An anti-fire ability would likely put this Poke over the top; I don't really like this combination.
• Steel / Ghost - Immunity to fighting is nice, and with possibilities for an anti-Fire and anti-Ground ability, definitely fits the role nicely. Sorry, Kitsunoh.
• Steel / Dragon - This is a very interesting combination. It scores neutrality to Fire, and the other two types can be covered by ability. Furthermore, as a Dragon, it loses every single one of its Dragon weaknesses. It can no longer resist +1 Outrages, but this might be addressed with stats a bit.

These are the types I see as the most useful for a secondary to Steel. That's well over half the other types in the game. (9 / 16) That's a lot of potential room-for-adjustment in the future parts of the CAP process. If we chose Ghost, we would really have to account for the Dark weakness, otherwise the dang thing will get Pursuit-trapped by things like ScarfTar. I know you said they have better things to do, but their job is to Pursuit-lock Pokemon weak to it. (Latias, Rotom-A, Gengar, etc.) Furthermore, ScarfTar resists your STAB option, you aren't resistant to SR and are vulnerable to every other entry hazard, etc. Let's look at possible Ghost secondary typings to be fair here. I will be looking for ways to neutralize the Pursuit weakness and ways to try to get a resistance to SR and maybe some other entry hazard to help it out. Maybe there's room for an anti-Dark ability, but really the Ghost has more important things to be doing with its ability than resisting Dark.

• Ghost / Fighting - Hello, Rev. No, but really, this typing is nice. Resists SR and covers the Pursuit weakness.
• Ghost / Ground - I'll list it because it resists SR, but it unfortunately doesn't cover Pursuit or opposing Ghosts. Handy TWave immunity, maybe?
• Ghost / Steel - Just like above, this combination is handy. Immunity to Fighting, resistant to SR, immune to Toxic Spikes, possible Levitate and anti-Fire as an ability. Neutrality to both of Ghost's weaknesses is nice. Good candidate.
• Ghost / Dark - No SR resistance, but neutrality to Dark. General all-purpose no-weakness Pokemon, but doesn't cover any of the entry hazards. Decent candidate.

That's not a long list, really, and is actually shorter than Steel's. If we ignore the Pursuit weakness, some other options potentially open up, Rotom's for instance among others, but ignoring the Pursuit weakness is pretty brutal. Almost every player in the OU metagame would use Pursuit as the main mode to smash this Pokemon apart, and it's really not so uncommon in the metagame already with CBScizor, TTar, and Metagross running around so rampant.

I agree with this notion, and the biggest problem I have is that a type that can switch in on everything AND counter everything is not what utility counter is supposed to be. It's like SpD Skarm. If you don't pack Fire or Electric moves at a certain point in the game it will wall you merely via attrition: Roost recovers more damage than you can reasonably deal out. You can't break through its typing and defenses, it doesn't even need to hit you SE at the point. If it could it would be broken. It's very difficult to balance defenses by "requiring investment." People aren't going to invest in defenses unless its a viable wall. The reason I went through a litany of Steels and mentioned Colossoil was to bring up the point that mons with easily exploitable weaknesses will favor offensive over defensive spreads almost regardless of their Base Stats.

The other option of course given our Skarmory example is to take away reliable recovery. Or as I call it: "Build a better Bronzong."

But don't you see, then that Skarmory 2.0 becomes a wall. It doesn't become a utility counter. We shouldn't even be considering Skarmory 2.0. The Bronzong model is much more conducive of the utility counter we're looking for, and even that has room for improvement and tweaking.

I see that most players will favor offense over defense, given the option, but if we keep the offenses modest at best and keep all offensive setup moves away, then it will not be nearly as attractive as the defensive options. We don't want CAP10 to sweep, God no, so we should keep all of the things that make it able to sweep away from it. We can do that easily as we're in control here. We don't want it to be too defensive, though, as we need it to counter specific threats. This is why also I feel that such key weaknesses is important - so that it can be beaten by something it isn't intended to counter. You build to beat Lucario, but alas, you now open yourself up to that MixMence that just switched in. Etc. We can tailor this Pokemon's stats and moves to remove sweeping as an option and remove the want for players to use it as such. It doesn't need Colossoil's 122 attack stat, for instance.

 

[DawnOfCreation]

What if we tried to make another Dark/Ghost combination. Dark and Ghost avoids 3 types and can't be hit for extra damage, and I'm sure there are ways to make it effective.

Steel does have a lot of resistances, but every team carries a way to eliminate Steel types: Earthquake, Close Combat, Eruption and the like.

Water seems to have a great coverage but Grass Knot and Thunderbolt are staples in many teams.

Anyway, it would be cool to create another Dark/Ghost combination, at the moment I cannot think of one.

 

[Xiom]

Rising Dusk, I don't want to argue anything about steel anymore. The reason I don't like a steel poke for the CAP is that I feel they have all been exploited to the max and is way too common in the current meta. I want something original to come out of CAP.

Things like Electric-Fire with levitate, Normal-Ghost is high up on my list simply because they haven't been done before. Steel-Grass would be the only steel type I suport because it just have that feeling to it.

But I'm gonna go with Fighting here SR, Pursuit and U-Turn resistance is something i find intresting. I have nothing against taking netrual from Dragons or any other type.

Water is probably better but it doesn't have that feeling.

 

[Korski]

"If we make CAP Steel, we'll just negate its weaknesses with second typing and abilities and it'll become Bronzong 2.0! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!"

I can do it too.

"If we make CAP Water, we'll just give it huge HP, good defenses, and workable special attack, and it'll become Vaporeon 2.0! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

"If we make CAP Fighting, we'll just give it good overall defenses since it isn't weak to much, give it a a good attacking stat to take advantage of its good STAB, and it'll become Machamp 2.0! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

"If we make CAP Electric, we'll just give it some kind of typing/ability combo that makes it immune to Ground attacks and offers multiple additional resistances and it'll become Zapdos 2.0! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

That's a terrible argument. You can't finish the CAP in your head after the first poll. That's insane and is a pretty weak place from which to form an argument. Same with the others that address Steel as a type in a vacuum and not in relation to the concept. "Steel has three common weaknesses" is indeed true, but it also has great resistances that give it a good starting point for getting into battle frequently. As a utility counter, CAP 10 will probably be facing what it's countering a few times over the course of the battle (assuming your opponent is smart and switches out what is being countered, which is effective countering), so being able to switch in more often while taking less damage on average, especially from entry hazards, is vital to the success of this concept. Lucario doesn't address Steel's three glaring weaknesses and performs quite well at its job. Empoleon sheds its Fire weakness for another common weakness in Electric but is still effective. Same story for Heatran (substitute Electric for Water). To say CAP 10 with a Steel typing can't do its job isn't giving the community or the process enough credit.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight
There are 17 Types. Steel comprises 20% of OU (10 of 50ish). That leaves 80% for the other 16 types.

That second stat is somewhat misleading, as OU's Steel types all have secondary typings, which, if you work in, bring the numbers to 12% Steel and 88% everything else. The first stat there is correct, though, and it's true that there are a lot of Steel types in the OU metagame, which can be argued as a testament to their utility. True, Steel is well represented in the metagame, but in terms of this concept, it fits, imo, better than the other options and shouldn't be considered a failure of the concept based on nothing else but the primary typing alone. The Steel typing is useful and usefully pairs with Bug/Electric/Fighting/Fire/Flying/Psychic/Water, as OU has already shown us, Ghost, as CAP has already shown us, and to which I would add Dragon/Grass/Poison as interesting type combinations. So Steel is hardly limited in regards to secondary typing.

Of all 10 OU Steel types, only 2 have abilities that cover Steel's weaknesses (one of which would be a neutrality anyway, due to typing), and they all seem to work well. The sheer scope of the concept seems to be the only solid reasoning against Steel at the moment, something we have barely begun to scratch the surface of and an argument that can be leveled against almost any typing, so I wouldn't discount anything just yet. I say we should focus right now on a resistance-based approach to allow our "defensively versatile utility counter" an excellent base with which to perform its job. Steel is the right choice in that matter, but I know opinions won't change, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Zystral]

To say CAP 10 with a Steel typing can't do its job isn't giving the community or the process enough credit.

True, Steel is well represented in the metagame, but in terms of this concept, it fits, imo, better than the other options and shouldn't be considered a failure of the concept based on nothing else but the primary typing alone.

I say we should focus right now on a resistance-based approach to allow our "defensively versatile utility counter" an excellent base with which to perform its job. Steel is the right choice in that matter, but I know opinions won't change, so I'll leave it at that.

Just snipping out what I want to address.
there's nobody saying Steel will hinder CAP 10 and it's counter-like fun. I agree that Steel is a marvellous choice for something that as you say, will be relying on its natural resistances, however, Steel in its own right has its own drawbacks and advantages, and we're looking to maximise the advantages in terms of defence, and Steel just has such common drawbacks and not the best resistances, that other types will be better for use.
Make no mistake, if Steel is chosen, it will work. I just think that other types may provide for more interesting combinations and results, perhaps better.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Rising Dusk, I don't want to argue anything about steel anymore. The reason I don't like a steel poke for the CAP is that I feel they have all been exploited to the max and is way too common in the current meta. I want something original to come out of CAP.

Then don't argue with me and just discuss it! There are already 10 OU Steel-type Pokemon, but we cannot let what is already there influence what we choose to make this CAP. We pick a typing that will most facilitate what it needs to do, and if that happens to be a common one, so be it. Furthermore, this concept was chosen because it will add something unique to the metagame - its typing will not make it any less unique if its function differs it from every other member of its type. (And it will if Steel wins and anyone listens to anything I say!)

there's nobody saying Steel will hinder CAP 10 and it's counter-like fun. I agree that Steel is a marvellous choice for something that as you say, will be relying on its natural resistances, however, Steel in its own right has its own drawbacks and advantages, and we're looking to maximise the advantages in terms of defence, and Steel just has such common drawbacks and not the best resistances, that other types will be better for use.

Its weaknesses are part of what make it perfect for this CAP. Not only is it resistant to a sizable portion of the metagame, but based upon what the player tailors it to counter, it will be beatable by other Pokemon. That's important. If we choose a largely neutral typing and give it the stats to soak hits from the big attackers in +1 Mence and +2 Luke, then it will be very difficult to beat - even if it's not prepared specifically for the threat that's attacking it. (Even worse if it's got reliable healing) This CAP shouldn't be a wall, it should be a utility counter.

 

[Dominion]

Admiral this is incorrect. Steel supporters have been scoffed at because they are effectively creating Bronzong 2.0.

Water supporters havent said anything about making a bulky water or another Vaporeon. Fighting Supporters have made the notion of a defensive one on the other hand.

The reason we say "Bronzong 2.0" is because you are literally and quite obviously leading towards it. You've continuously said that this pokemon, if Steel type, will be given a second typing that makes up for it's obvious flaws -and- will be given an ability to match. Steel's advantages are null and void at this point as a very many of us have picked it apart one by one and have provided you with other types that would do the job better (Water, Fighting, Ghost, etc).

If you look at many of the Water posts, not a single one has said "since we pick Water, we will obviously need type X with Ability Y to make up for it's glaring problem Z" Steel type is sadly crippled due to it's omnipresent nature and, by defending it, you are only making it look worse and worse as a typing, as you keep forcing us to continuously pick apart it's weaknesses. Be it glaringly obvious (3 very large weaknesses) or the simple minute problems that nobody would have thought of unless it was beaten like a dead horse (Terrible offensive typing, forced into levitate+supportive type).

You're right, we cannot finish this CAP in the first poll and that is why we are not voting Steel. By voting Steel, we have effectively finished this pokemon and should call it a day. It's Steel type? Oh, well lets make it Steel/Psychic. Since it's now Steel/Psychic, we better tack on Levitate. Since we have effectively made it so defensive thus far, we might as well give it a defensive Stat spread and well as all of the supportive moves it needs to survive. Would it happen this way? Probably not but all of your arguements supporting Steel says thats how it has to go if it is suppose to survive with it's Steel type.

We cannot see into the future like that though. And thats why we must pick a typing that isn't locked into future choices.

I would support Steel as a secondary type though. As Steel does have some uses, but I do not want it as a Primary as it forces our decision on our secondary. So, lets wait and see what comes out of the primary and if Steel supports it, then I would gladly back it up.

So, lets do this backwards, lets pick the Secondary typing first. Then ,we move on to the primary typing. I know it's a strange way to put it but if you had to pick a type that would support Steel rather well for this pokemon, what would it be?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Water supporters havent said anything about making a bulky water or another Vaporeon. Fighting Supporters have made the notion of a defensive one on the other hand.

If this Pokemon ends up Water-type, it's going to be one of the bulkiest out there to soak the hits it needs to soak. This is especially true if it has to be malleable enough to counter Jolteon and Zapdos when we want it to.

The reason we say "Bronzong 2.0" is because you are literally and quite obviously leading towards it. You've continuously said that this pokemon, if Steel type, will be given a second typing that makes up for it's obvious flaws -and- will be given an ability to match. Steel's advantages are null and void at this point as a very many of us have picked it apart one by one and have provided you with other types that would do the job better (Water, Fighting, Ghost, etc).

I've yet to see a cogent and/or convincing argument as to why any of those types would do it better. As a matter of fact, I've made repeated arguments as to why it shouldn't be those types, mostly because of how incredibly bulky the thing will have to be to take the hits it needs to take without question or concern, and how that will permit it to wall a substantially larger subset of the metagame than the specific thing the player is trying to counter.

You're right, we cannot finish this CAP in the first poll and that is why we are not voting Steel. By voting Steel, we have effectively finished this pokemon and should call it a day. It's Steel type? Oh, well lets make it Steel/Psychic. Since it's now Steel/Psychic, we better tack on Levitate.

Steel / Psychic is an option, but there are numerous others. Check my link below, there are cases to be made for lots of secondary typings and lots of abilities. Steel is way more flexible for this CAP than any of the nay-sayers are giving it credit for. Just because we're used to OU Steel-types doesn't mean we have to follow that model exactly.

The Bronzong model has the right idea of it on some level. The thing is virtually incapable of threatening anything, incapable of healing itself reliably, and incapable of outspeeding any threats to do whatever. Heck, it's also basically incapable of even crippling threats with status. Bronzong, because of its setup, is a good transition Pokemon. This CAP is going to be a utility counter, not a transition Pokemon. It will be vastly different in function, and stats, and while the Bronzong model of having two abilities to cover different weaknesses is neat and applicable to this CAP (especially in the case of Steel, though it's not limited to that), that's about the only real similarity there might be.

So, lets do this backwards, lets pick the Secondary typing first. Then ,we move on to the primary typing. I know it's a strange way to put it but if you had to pick a type that would support Steel rather well for this pokemon, what would it be?

About halfway down this post.

 

[ferron]

Admiral this is incorrect. Steel supporters have been scoffed at because they are effectively creating Bronzong 2.0.

i disagree with removing its weaknesses, and have said so in the past. its those opposed to a steel typing that have brought up zong 2.0 or skarm 2.0, not those for it.

Water supporters havent said anything about making a bulky water or another Vaporeon. Fighting Supporters have made the notion of a defensive one on the other hand.

if you have the right to incorrectly interpret what steel supporters plan, they why can't we do the same?

The reason we say "Bronzong 2.0" is because you are literally and quite obviously leading towards it. You've continuously said that this pokemon, if Steel type, will be given a second typing that makes up for it's obvious flaws -and- will be given an ability to match. Steel's advantages are null and void at this point as a very many of us have picked it apart one by one and have provided you with other types that would do the job better (Water, Fighting, Ghost, etc).

have you ever considered that people are referencing a second typing because there has never been a pure steel, and we aren't sure what to do with it (though i wouldn't mind trying it)? or how about the fact that we may want to add STAB, as opposed to removing weaknesses? (a la luke)

You're right, we cannot finish this CAP in the first poll and that is why we are not voting Steel. By voting Steel, we have effectively finished this pokemon and should call it a day. It's Steel type? Oh, well lets make it Steel/Psychic. Since it's now Steel/Psychic, we better tack on Levitate. Since we have effectively made it so defensive thus far, we might as well give it a defensive Stat spread and well as all of the supportive moves it needs to survive. Would it happen this way? Probably not but all of your arguements supporting Steel says thats how it has to go if it is suppose to survive with it's Steel type.

once again, its the opposition making zong 2.0, not us.

We cannot see into the future like that though. And thats why we must pick a typing that isn't locked into future choices.

how is it locked? you are the one making assumptions into what the community will want, instead of wanting to try something new.
and like hell the majority of those on CaP just throw something randomly overpowered just for the sake of it.

I would support Steel as a secondary type though. As Steel does have some uses, but I do not want it as a Primary as it forces our decision on our secondary. So, lets wait and see what comes out of the primary and if Steel supports it, then I would gladly back it up.

okay, what?

So, lets do this backwards, lets pick the Secondary typing first. Then ,we move on to the primary typing. I know it's a strange way to put it but if you had to pick a type that would support Steel rather well for this pokemon, what would it be?

we are not changing the CaP process, just because you think it might work better. we shouldn't even be discussing type combos at all yet.

 

[Anachronism]

Really it isn't about what is the best defensive typing, it is about the typing that best fits the concept, and I believe that water does not fit the concept specifically because every water ever uses its stab(s) + the coverage moves that make sense with it. I think that we should make absolutely sure that we don't create a 'mon with a stagnant set, and anything with a halfway decent stab WILL use it, so the best course of action is to make something with BAD stab. Honestly I don't care which of these types wins as long as it doesn't have good stab. Good stab sounds good from a competetive standpoint, but it doesn't give the set limitations that I want. I want this thing to be able to hit hard on specific targets, and I want almost any attacking type to be on equal footing. One of my objections with steel though is that we are guaranteed to give it a secondary type, and this secondary type will likely have a good stab (unless the grass + flash fire thing gets significant support), and this is bad for fulfilling the concept to its fullest. This is why my support extends to either Normal or Poison now as opposed to just normal. Both of these typings essentially have 1 weakness (Psychic weakness, lol) and bad stab, making them versatile defensively and offensively (by which I mean they are not limited in regards to their weaknesses and sets)

 

[Xiom]

So, lets do this backwards, lets pick the Secondary typing first. Then ,we move on to the primary typing. I know it's a strange way to put it but if you had to pick a type that would support Steel rather well for this pokemon, what would it be?

Grass?

x4
Fire

x2
Fighting

x1
Ground
Ice
Flying
Bug

x.5
Electric
Water
Dragon
Normal
Psychic
Rock
Ghost
Dark


x.25
Grass

x0
Poison


Giving it Heatproof would let it use Occa Berry to remove its fire weakness so it could take a resisted move as it switches in and then take the Fire move they throw at you.

This only goes for pokemons with Fire attacks, if you intend to counter DDGyara then you obvioulsy don't need either heatproof or Occa berry.

Maby the Occa berry idea is poor but you can't say i didn't try. There's allways the option of making a new Fire resist Ability that better goes along with the grass steel typing then Flash Fire does.

 

[Urza]

honestly, i think that the best thing to model this on is deoxys - e as it was back in the OU days...not so much the broken double screen or spikes set, but the pretty defensive revenge killer it was mostly used as at first. it won't need the sheer versatility of deo-e, but that's a great example of a pokemon that didnt use it's stab much and was used mostly as an ultra utility poke.

 

[T-major]

@Rising_Dusk.
Making steel resistant to all those types would make it so it can counter a ton of stuff that it wasn't intended to. being able to switch in and take hits from any threat except one (the one it's ability isn't handling), would make it a wall; it just wouldn't need as high of a defence meaning you can pump it into offence and speed, then sweep the crap out of half the metagame.

we don't want that, therefore we don't want steel.

I still choose Fighting, because it can function very well without a second type. it's resistances are to things we need to look out for, it's weaknesses are to things we don't need to worry about that much. adding a second type would only help it, but isn't necessary; neither are abilities that block type damage. 3 of these 4 things steel doesn't meet. /broken record

I'm done. I await the poll.