I'd have to agree, before I read this thread I was drooling over the idea of an OU with multitype or a conversion2 color change. Now however I like the versatility in stats more, be it opposing abilities or the suggested ability to double stat influence from EVs. Either way I feel the need to repeat what many of posters have said before me with a bulky spread, though not quite as high as the fairies (due to the aforementioned abilities) and most importantly a versatile movepool. Seeing as we are only trying to counter and not make this a sweeper or such on its own I see no room for stat-uppers (at least not on offense).
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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Concept Assessment
- Thread starter beej
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Just to elaborate, Huge Power works great to increase physical attacks. Solid Rock would make a pokemon with no 4x weaknesses have no weaknesses whatsoever, although I have a problem flavor-wise if we didn't put it on a ground or rock pokemon.
Multitype is kind of middle ground. It's really the only way I know of of amping up a special attacker(through STAB), and it would also change but not eliminate weaknesses. Multitype also eliminates the option of holding a more powerful item, so if we went Huge Power/Multitype, odds are the stats would be biased towards a special attacker to make up for the drawbacks.
I'm also not sure what a good second type would be for a multitype pokemon, which is probably why Arceus only has one.
To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?
If we have already gone so far as to make this concept extremely vague, then taking the extra step to say it should be able to completely annihilate the pokemon it was meant to counter as well as pokemon that are similar to it (such as Dragonite and Salamence) shouldn't be too difficult.
I do not believe that we should have to worry about it becoming too "overpowered" because most people will probably just use this thing to counter one pokemon such as: Salamence, Tyranitar, (insert other offensive threats here) so they won't have too much of an opportunity to use it on anything else.
Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
I believe that we should start leaning toward an offensive spread with CAP10. If we only focus on the fact that CAP10 needs to counter anything then all we will see is that we need amazing defensive stats, and we will end up with a Shuckle-esque pokemon.
What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?
A punch is usually needed to scare someone into switching, unless you just want to take advantage of the ridiculous psychological game that CAP10 could potentially play. Respectable defense is needed or this concept just plain wont work. So a balanced BST is a nice idea but not necessarily required. Im going to lean toward offense because thats how i play things.
Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn't specifically designed to counter?
I want CAP10 to be able to completely rip apart one member of the opposing team, and never look back. For this to be able to happen, CAP10 must be EXTREMELY versatile, to the point of being Uber quality. However this concept in itself is flawed, because if i want a Salamence counter, it will probably have some Ice move or perhaps Rock or Electric and fairly high SpAtk or Atk. But since Ice is an amazing attack type, and when compounded with Electric it just becomes that much better, there is very little chance that the next pokemon the opponent sends out won't take a lot of damage from CAP10 thus deviating its original purpose - to be tailored to and counter one specific pokemon - and turning it into more of a sweeper.
So in my mind, the more we try to be able to "limit" it to be able to counter any one pokemon, the worse it becomes as a concept.
The amount of moves that have to be available to a pokemon like this, as well as the stats required, will make CAP10 very hard to implement into the metagame as a "Utility Counter" without players using it for other purposes, thus rendering the whole "Utility Counter" concept useless.
If we have already gone so far as to make this concept extremely vague, then taking the extra step to say it should be able to completely annihilate the pokemon it was meant to counter as well as pokemon that are similar to it (such as Dragonite and Salamence) shouldn't be too difficult.
I do not believe that we should have to worry about it becoming too "overpowered" because most people will probably just use this thing to counter one pokemon such as: Salamence, Tyranitar, (insert other offensive threats here) so they won't have too much of an opportunity to use it on anything else.
Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
I believe that we should start leaning toward an offensive spread with CAP10. If we only focus on the fact that CAP10 needs to counter anything then all we will see is that we need amazing defensive stats, and we will end up with a Shuckle-esque pokemon.
What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?
A punch is usually needed to scare someone into switching, unless you just want to take advantage of the ridiculous psychological game that CAP10 could potentially play. Respectable defense is needed or this concept just plain wont work. So a balanced BST is a nice idea but not necessarily required. Im going to lean toward offense because thats how i play things.
Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn't specifically designed to counter?
I want CAP10 to be able to completely rip apart one member of the opposing team, and never look back. For this to be able to happen, CAP10 must be EXTREMELY versatile, to the point of being Uber quality. However this concept in itself is flawed, because if i want a Salamence counter, it will probably have some Ice move or perhaps Rock or Electric and fairly high SpAtk or Atk. But since Ice is an amazing attack type, and when compounded with Electric it just becomes that much better, there is very little chance that the next pokemon the opponent sends out won't take a lot of damage from CAP10 thus deviating its original purpose - to be tailored to and counter one specific pokemon - and turning it into more of a sweeper.
So in my mind, the more we try to be able to "limit" it to be able to counter any one pokemon, the worse it becomes as a concept.
The amount of moves that have to be available to a pokemon like this, as well as the stats required, will make CAP10 very hard to implement into the metagame as a "Utility Counter" without players using it for other purposes, thus rendering the whole "Utility Counter" concept useless.
1) Filter = Solid Rock
2) Solid Rock only reduces by 1/4 not 1/2
An alternative to Huge Power, and something less excessive, would be Tinted Lens. That with Filter or Solid Rock would make a very interesting typing based Pokemon without going too far as I feel Multitype would.
I liked reachzero's idea of soft countering numerous threats, as that way it can possibly be made to counter two similar threats that have a single crucial difference which you can cover, rather than leaving yourself a shaky counter to one or the other. Obviously one should be able to decide whether to be able to this defensively (status) or offensively (looking to OHKO) so then it can fit on as many teams as possible, and that is what I gather CAP10 should be able to do due to its versatility.
As said above, the user should be able to choose between a defensive or offensive moveset to deal with threats. Limiting it to one or the other could reduce its efficiency and/or overpower it imo, since being purely offensive or purely defensive can limit what you can take out or threaten easily.
Balanced is where I feel CAP10 should sit, and I mean in every stat. Someone mentioned Deoxys-s earlier, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Mesprit in terms of stats; enough speed to outspeed common defensive Pokemon (possibly to Taunt or whatever), but with enough bulk and power to muscle past offensive threats.
Of course as others have mentioned already, covering one Pokemon may cover others by default, but if you choose to cover a defensive threat you should be susceptible to offensive threats, and vice versa. Of course the defensive/offensive split shouldn't be the only divider; if you choose to, say, counter a physically defensive Pokemon you should be unable to break specially defensive ones (of course Taunt could throw this out, but only for defensive Pokemon). Same goes for physical attackers and special attackers. Ideally I think it should be unable to have a middleground in terms of this (unless we want it to counter mixed sweepers too, which is quite hard except via typing).
Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
What we absolutely want to avoid is for CAP10 to become a sweeper in its own right. Making CAP10 a Choice Item user is acceptable, as long as its Choice Item use is to let it counter other Pokemon and not act as a Latias-esque Choiced powerhouse that needs to be countered. This would go against the concept by making CAP10 not a counter at all, but a threat in and of itself that needs to be countered. One way to keep this from happening is to give CAP10 low offensive capabilities and instead make it able to threaten the opponent through status and passive damage. However, that could leave CAP10 unable to deal with Taunt and Lum Berry users, so it could not effectively counter everything. We should give CAP10 at least some offensive prowess, but make its Speed low enough that it cannot sweep. Some users have been advocating giving CAP10 good Speed stats, even Deoxys-S level Speed. This would be a mistake, since it would be likely to let CAP10 to become a powerful Choice Item user, or a lategame cleaner like Deoxys-S used to be. CAP10 should be less focused on revenge-killing threats, and more on hard-countering them and forcing them out, as the concept originally stated.
What we absolutely want to avoid is for CAP10 to become a sweeper in its own right. Making CAP10 a Choice Item user is acceptable, as long as its Choice Item use is to let it counter other Pokemon and not act as a Latias-esque Choiced powerhouse that needs to be countered. This would go against the concept by making CAP10 not a counter at all, but a threat in and of itself that needs to be countered. One way to keep this from happening is to give CAP10 low offensive capabilities and instead make it able to threaten the opponent through status and passive damage. However, that could leave CAP10 unable to deal with Taunt and Lum Berry users, so it could not effectively counter everything. We should give CAP10 at least some offensive prowess, but make its Speed low enough that it cannot sweep. Some users have been advocating giving CAP10 good Speed stats, even Deoxys-S level Speed. This would be a mistake, since it would be likely to let CAP10 to become a powerful Choice Item user, or a lategame cleaner like Deoxys-S used to be. CAP10 should be less focused on revenge-killing threats, and more on hard-countering them and forcing them out, as the concept originally stated.
I should note that I am 100% against any ability that takes CAP10 in a very offensive direction (i.e. Tinted Lens, Huge Power, etc.). A greatly offensive ability would definitely distract from the defensive purpose of this Pokemon, and lead players to focus on optimizing its offense capabilities. I think it is incredibly important for CAP10 to have what it needs to deal with particular threats--I think Multitype would be a slam dunk, though in lieu of that I think something along the lines of Intimidate or Filter would work with the concept. My point is that it is risky to give CAP10 too much offensive firepower, or it may lose its purpose as a "Utility Counter" and inadvertantly become a "Utility Sweeper".
I'm not necessarily advocating for that. Huge Power doubles an average or pathetic attack power into an acceptable number. It has the power to transform a fairly weak(offensively) pokemon into a decent or strong one. Which is where the power to become a threat would come from, especially since odds are it will be taking advantage of a 2x or 4x weakness to take out the pokemon it's countering.
If you're against it being able to OHKO the pokemon it's countering, then that's different.
Like reach said, any ability that boosts attacking power may lead players into using the pokemon as an attacking one rather than a defensive one. Huge Power is a huge offensive ability to have: Look at Azumarill. OK 100/80/80 defenses, and 50 Attack, yet it's used as mainly a Waterfall+Aqua Jet+Focus Punch attacker because of the ability.
wrong; solid rock does reduce by 1/2
I like Oddish on Fire's concept as well; I think it has some good points and it lowers the chances of it not even getting used for it's concept, as stated in the ost
I don't actually feel that multitype is going to provide enough versatility to survive any of the threats that CAP10 is going to counter. Take Lucario as the target of the counter, for instance. Ghost is the obvious multitype to take, as it's immune to its priority and STAB option, but if it carries Crunch (very common) and isn't fast enough to outspeed Luke, it's going to get broken by it. A single type isn't sufficient to soft counter most of the threats this thing is going to want to counter.reachzero said:
Also, addressing other peoples' suggestion of Conversion2... I find that even worse off than Multitype. Now, not only can you not soft counter the Pokemon until after you're already hit by an attack, making you very weak to switch in (potentially suicidally weak against STAB Super Effective options), but it also limits your move pool. Now, considering even the same move as an ability that automatically applies when switching in, it can only work if it is tailored to always resist the attack made by the enemy. This will make it resistant/immune to all attacking types at all times, which could then be balanced out by stats if necessary. This is the only way that Conversion2-style soft countering could work.
Personally, the always-resisting-all-types style could be really cool and balanceable by stats, but this opens it up to countering too many threats at once, as opposed to only a specific threat.
In light of this, let me propose something else. Perhaps we should simply pick a typing that maximizes the defensive capabilities of the Pokemon, and then use abilities to tailor its immunities and resistances accordingly. The best example of this I can think of it a Dragon/Steel Pokemon with abilities in the form of Thick Fat, Levitate, and some custom ability that allows it to be immune to Fighting attacks and/or Dragon attacks. In this way, he could be tailored by ability (not type!) to soft counter the desired threat, but is then left open to others by the unprotected weaknesses. (Fire/Ice become threatening without Thick Fat, Ground beats it soundly without Levitate, or Fighting and/or Dragon hurt it substantially without the custom ability) This is just one example, but is something that is likely to be more applicable than something like Multitype.
It's also UU, so there's obviously not as much to that strategy as you're saying, and it's probably only Rain that's keeping it that popular. Medicham has 60 base Attack, and yet is NU even with Pure Power.
Huge/Pure Power doesn't mean it has to have 50 base * 2 = 100. It could mean 35 * 2 = 70 (for example). Accomplishing a crappy base with a middling huge power isn't difficult. The only real issue might be the fact that both amplify the total, so EVs are doubly effective.
Personally, I still think that using an ability to split the difference between the offensive counter version and the defensive counter version is important because it will keep it from simply being a bulky threat in its own right.
Whoever it was that said it shouldn't have access to stat-up moves is probably right, I wouldn't want it even thinking about trying to sweep. We obviously can't help it if it gets baton passed something though.
My points for Tinted Lens are more that it will allow for less attacking moves needed for coverage. It also allows you to do more with less, covering more Pokemon. Perhaps it is a bit too much to tip the balance away from defense but I don't think shutting out offensive abilities or styles entirely is an ideal direction to go. Utility Counter implies that CAP10 should be able to beat up common Stall Pokemon too (perhaps even SkarmBliss).
Tinted Lens is still far more useful as an attacking weapon than as a defensive or countering option. If you're countering a Pokemon, you should not be using resisted attacks against it after switching in.
Tinted Lens is good for already strong attackers, because it prevents the damage from being reduced to negligible damage. It doesn't enhance the counter quality at all, it increases coverage, which if I'm not mistaken is not what we want.
You can take out stall/wall pokemon pretty easily with a combination of taunt and stat-ignoring moves. I've used Bibarel for a wall breaker before for example. A new pokemon like him with increased stats, such as a decent amount of speed, defenses and either attack or access to something like dragon rage, would definitely force defensive pokemon out because it would be fully capable of beating them, while preventing them from setting up or recovering.
My only thought on Multitype is that I think it's overrated as far as the versatility it provides. It does provide it in one way but it's very restrictive in another. Specifically, you couldn't run a Scarf Water Multitype mon. You'd need to have Splash Plate as your item. You would never have Leftovers recovery or Life Orb boost, you'd just have 20% more powerful STAB. Which isn't bad per se, but it's somewhat limiting.
There's also the plain fact that monotypes don't have the kind of useful resistance combinations that dual types have. Tentacruel is an awesome Ape counter because it resists Fire Blast and Close Combat and takes neutral damage from Grass Knot. Pure Poison is FB vulnerable while Pure Water eats Grass Knot. Don't even get me started on what issues a Multitype Steel mon has with most Dragons (that was the last two polls)...
There's also the plain fact that monotypes don't have the kind of useful resistance combinations that dual types have. Tentacruel is an awesome Ape counter because it resists Fire Blast and Close Combat and takes neutral damage from Grass Knot. Pure Poison is FB vulnerable while Pure Water eats Grass Knot. Don't even get me started on what issues a Multitype Steel mon has with most Dragons (that was the last two polls)...
First of all, Solid Rock drops your Super Effective damage by 1/4. So a Pokemon will still take normal damage from non-Super Effective moves, and therefore as awesome as the ability is in theory, on paper we're pretty much restricted, due to its name and other things, to using it on Rock and Ground Pkmn, so it has key limitations which people easily exploit. Such as Water/ Grass weakness. So we can throw that ability out the window for starters.
Secondly, do we really want CAP 10 to go into Dragon/ Steel, another type combination with a single weakness, Ground, and then further reinforce it with Levitate? I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea, but if that happens, we should lower the aggressive stats to more respectable levels, such as 50 - 70, for example. After all, it would then have immunity to two types, resist 10 types for 1/2 damage and resist another type for 1/4 damage. That's 13/17 types resisted or suffering immunity. Which would leave four types to hit it back. Quite a large range to take moves hitting it, so in response, we would need to mitigate it's stats somewhat.
Tinted Lens is so-so. On the one hand, we maximize the coverage, but on the other, we allow it more chance of countering things it wasn't designed to. Plus, we aren't trying to make yet another wall-breaker or sweeper, so being able to never do anything less than normal damage would potentially be broken. Especially when we consider Bullet Punch - it would do at least normal damage, and it can hit everything with impunity. So if we chose Tinted Lens, then all priority-escaping moves would end up being blocked, on the simple basis that they'd be using a STAB which moves first and hits everything.
As a response to Huge Power... if we did end up going down that route, we'd possibly create a hugely powerful sweeper. But we could do the same thing, but with Def. or SpDef. instead. That would mean you'd be able to raise it's stats to take special or physical attacks, but the only stat maxed out Base-Stat wise would be HP. It's not a brilliant idea, but it's got potential.
About abilities which change your typing on entry: first of all, that ensures our Pokemon is a Normal type. However: If I send out CAP 10 against Charizard, it can change into Rock, Water, Electric, Rock/Water, Rock/Electric, and Water/Electric, if we just look into counter-attack stats. Those six options are without considering the getting hurt options. How would the Pokemon choose which of those it would become? It's much too difficult an ability to get the AI to choose for you, so that means we need to let the player do so. Which quickly makes the Pokemon broken, as the ability is average, so the stats would improve. The only other option would be Colour Change, which is beyond useless as everyone easily finds ways to make it so we have a Super Effective move against it. Such as Ice then Fire.
Finally, we are not making a sweeper or revenge killer, even if said Pkmn would be restricted to being useful against a particular threat. If you honestly want another Pokemon capable of ripping up the opposing team, use something that's already powerful that you aren't already runnning, such as CB Bullet Punch Scizor or LO Collosoil. Utility Counter suggests stopping another Pkmn in its tracks, allowing us to force it to switch or just simply fail to damage. Yes, it needs some offensive capability as we don't want another Shuckle, but we don't want a Sweeper disguised by the name of Utility Counter. For example, picking up on what Izzetmaster said, a Salamence Counter will likely have an Ice Move, an Electric Move and a Rock Move. Which is high type coverage. Combining that with high Atk/ SpAtk would be creating another sweeper.
Secondly, do we really want CAP 10 to go into Dragon/ Steel, another type combination with a single weakness, Ground, and then further reinforce it with Levitate? I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea, but if that happens, we should lower the aggressive stats to more respectable levels, such as 50 - 70, for example. After all, it would then have immunity to two types, resist 10 types for 1/2 damage and resist another type for 1/4 damage. That's 13/17 types resisted or suffering immunity. Which would leave four types to hit it back. Quite a large range to take moves hitting it, so in response, we would need to mitigate it's stats somewhat.
Tinted Lens is so-so. On the one hand, we maximize the coverage, but on the other, we allow it more chance of countering things it wasn't designed to. Plus, we aren't trying to make yet another wall-breaker or sweeper, so being able to never do anything less than normal damage would potentially be broken. Especially when we consider Bullet Punch - it would do at least normal damage, and it can hit everything with impunity. So if we chose Tinted Lens, then all priority-escaping moves would end up being blocked, on the simple basis that they'd be using a STAB which moves first and hits everything.
As a response to Huge Power... if we did end up going down that route, we'd possibly create a hugely powerful sweeper. But we could do the same thing, but with Def. or SpDef. instead. That would mean you'd be able to raise it's stats to take special or physical attacks, but the only stat maxed out Base-Stat wise would be HP. It's not a brilliant idea, but it's got potential.
About abilities which change your typing on entry: first of all, that ensures our Pokemon is a Normal type. However: If I send out CAP 10 against Charizard, it can change into Rock, Water, Electric, Rock/Water, Rock/Electric, and Water/Electric, if we just look into counter-attack stats. Those six options are without considering the getting hurt options. How would the Pokemon choose which of those it would become? It's much too difficult an ability to get the AI to choose for you, so that means we need to let the player do so. Which quickly makes the Pokemon broken, as the ability is average, so the stats would improve. The only other option would be Colour Change, which is beyond useless as everyone easily finds ways to make it so we have a Super Effective move against it. Such as Ice then Fire.
Finally, we are not making a sweeper or revenge killer, even if said Pkmn would be restricted to being useful against a particular threat. If you honestly want another Pokemon capable of ripping up the opposing team, use something that's already powerful that you aren't already runnning, such as CB Bullet Punch Scizor or LO Collosoil. Utility Counter suggests stopping another Pkmn in its tracks, allowing us to force it to switch or just simply fail to damage. Yes, it needs some offensive capability as we don't want another Shuckle, but we don't want a Sweeper disguised by the name of Utility Counter. For example, picking up on what Izzetmaster said, a Salamence Counter will likely have an Ice Move, an Electric Move and a Rock Move. Which is high type coverage. Combining that with high Atk/ SpAtk would be creating another sweeper.
I don't think your perspective is broad enough. The Utility Counter concept assumes this Pokemon can actually handle the attacks of the threats in question, meaning it will have to have mammoth defenses to survive whatever can hit it for neutral, as well as the resisted attack it switches in on. For instance, Suicune's defensive stats of 100/115/115 make it so that that even mixed attackers can't down it in one encounter, especially Infernape. Also, giving it a low weight would eliminate Grass Knot's viability against it, so that even as a Water type, it wouldn't have to worry at all about non-STAB super effective moves mixed sweepers carry, so long as it can KO the Pokemon back.
Of course, a Pokemon with supreme defenses would naturally have to come with the handicap of poor offensive stats, but if it wants to counter almost any common OU threat, it will need a very good offensive movepool. Giving it mediocre speed, low offense, and denying it access to any sort of instant boosting move like CM or Bulk Up will prevent it from becoming offensively oriented. With no tools to aid its sweeping ability, it will be forced to rely on its tanking ability, coverage, and status effects to counter what it needs to while lacking the force necessary to break other walls or handle the bulky sweepers its moveset doesn't cover.
In short, Multitype would be the perfect answer for the job so long as it has the stats and movepool to back it up (and if it wants to fulfill its role as effectively as the concept suggests, it will).
For the ability, what about something that lowers the neutrally effective damage? i.e. it would treat neutral damage as not-so-effective, and other damages would just work same, and this ability would make CAP10 take either super-effective or not-so-effective.
For stats, I think it has to have balanced stats in both offense and defense. Defense is obvious. As for offense, if CAP10 were to scare off whatever pokemon you want to counter, it would have to be versatile enough to attack in both atk and sp. atk. Otherwise, it wouldn't do much damage on one spectrum. Of course, offensive stats can't be high, and it wouldn't get any offensive stats upping move such as SD, CM, NP.. you get the idea.
For stats, I think it has to have balanced stats in both offense and defense. Defense is obvious. As for offense, if CAP10 were to scare off whatever pokemon you want to counter, it would have to be versatile enough to attack in both atk and sp. atk. Otherwise, it wouldn't do much damage on one spectrum. Of course, offensive stats can't be high, and it wouldn't get any offensive stats upping move such as SD, CM, NP.. you get the idea.
This has been asked plenty of times before me but I don't think it has been answered yet. How would a multitype steel pokemon counter a +1 dragon that has EQ and/or Fireblast? You are losing the potential leftovers/boosting item and to expect this thing to take a Super effective hit on the switch and either be fast AND strong enough to threaten a OHKO back or be bulky and strong enough to endure ANOTHER super effective attack and then OHKO is asking for more stats than anything that will stay OU can get. There are plenty of other threats who pose problems to the multitype ability; dragons are just the best example. I understand how attractive the versatility of Multitype is but it couldn't offer as much offensive OR defensive capability as a more neutral typing with a helpful ability could and I fear it would be very underwhelming (especially defensively).
I know it gets crazy throwing all these new abilities around, but if you want to be able to take either physical or special hits something like intimidate that effected their higher atk stat or, to prevent it from countering too much at one time, having to choose physical or special would help.
Also, I still don't see what is so flawed about the earlier idea of a great defensive dual typing paired with filter/solid rock. Only getting hit for a max of 1.5 damage by a couple types sounds like a great start for a defensively minded poke. There are existing pokes who, given that ability, could stop a number of threats cold.
I know it gets crazy throwing all these new abilities around, but if you want to be able to take either physical or special hits something like intimidate that effected their higher atk stat or, to prevent it from countering too much at one time, having to choose physical or special would help.
Also, I still don't see what is so flawed about the earlier idea of a great defensive dual typing paired with filter/solid rock. Only getting hit for a max of 1.5 damage by a couple types sounds like a great start for a defensively minded poke. There are existing pokes who, given that ability, could stop a number of threats cold.
Well, first of all, Solid Rock would mean the Pokemon pretty much is guaranteed to be Rock Type. Secondly, unless we choose something which is neutral or resists Grass/Water, we've got Hyper Effective moves once we dual-type it. Therefore, of the two - Filter is more useful, as it means we don't need to pick a type in advance. But yes, an unusual and very defensive dual-typing would allow it to stop threats dead, if backed up by the right moveset.
That may be the case, but it's likely to get either one or both of those moves, seeing as we aren't likely to leave it no method of boosting. That said, both of those moves would boost CAP 10's defences even higher, so supreme defences are unlikely to occur. After all, if the opponent finds he cannot harm CAP 10 properly, then he is just going to either ragequit or simply switch in a new Pokemon.
Of course, on the other end of the spectrum - there's no point in giving it stat-boosting moves if it can be 2HKO against the foe it's supposed to counter.
We need to find a balance, so a balanced stat-list with a slight leaning to one method or the other - attack or defence - is probably our best bet.
And in that you would be mistaken. The idea is not coverage, as a matter of fact if you read the concept it's the exact opposite. It doesn't need coverage, it needs very specific moves to counter specific threats as needed by the user. Tinted Lens lets its STAB options, whatever they might be, become superior to all other options - even when resisted. This makes it too powerful against too broad a spectrum of Pokemon, which is what we must be careful to not let it become.Akusu said:
Bibarel has already been converted into Arghonaut effectively, and Arghonaut already has Taunt to boot.Akusu said:
Isn't it obvious? Solid Rock helps it against all super-effective attacks, not those from the specific threat it is trying to counter. This Pokemon needs to not be able to handle all threats equally, it needs to be able to be tailored to defeat the specific threats - and only those - that the user needs it to counter. That means that a wide-spread defensive ability has no place on the Pokemon.fear_my_shuckle said:
I agree with this. It needs to be able to counter threats either specially or physically, and so a balanced stat spread with focused EVs is the best bet I would argue.Seizen said:
Agreed, as noted in my previous posts where I said basically the same thing. I think the solution is what I suggested before:Deck Knight said:
Rising_Dusk said:
I understand the problem with the type restriction that solid rock implies but it doesn't really matter since we have filter. (Although I think you could get away with slapping it on a steel if you had to but it would be stretching.) Outside of creating multiple stat distributions/forms, which I think is asking way too much out of one project, it is one of the only viable ways that I have seen presented where a poke could have great defensive prowess without having to use too many of its base stats.
On another note, while I agree that we don't want this thing to be an offensive presence, assuming that it forces out the poke it was meant to counter it still has to be threatening enough that it isn't just inviting another threat to switch in and set up on it. The large movepool will certainly help but I don't think we can rely on low-average unstabbed attacks coming off of a low-average offensive stat to force things out; particularly if it isn't the poke you designed it around.
What are some ways that this pokemon could threaten switch-in stat-up sweepers without relying on powerful/super effective attacks? Is a status move enough or should it get an extensive support movepool with moves such as taunt/encore/torment?
EDIT: The hidden power idea and Trace as an ability are worth thinking about. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I agree that solid rock/filter might be overkill but I don't see many other ways to make a poke bulky enough that it can switch into near anything. I find it hard to believe that it could take a life-orbed draco meteor and EQ (which for now I will assume is unboosted due to trace) after switching into stealth rock without a resistance, however I'll have a look at the numbers you put up. Given the HP focus, although it solves the problem of being to broad a threat, I feel like it makes becoming set-up fodder that much more of a concern.
On another note, while I agree that we don't want this thing to be an offensive presence, assuming that it forces out the poke it was meant to counter it still has to be threatening enough that it isn't just inviting another threat to switch in and set up on it. The large movepool will certainly help but I don't think we can rely on low-average unstabbed attacks coming off of a low-average offensive stat to force things out; particularly if it isn't the poke you designed it around.
What are some ways that this pokemon could threaten switch-in stat-up sweepers without relying on powerful/super effective attacks? Is a status move enough or should it get an extensive support movepool with moves such as taunt/encore/torment?
EDIT: The hidden power idea and Trace as an ability are worth thinking about. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I agree that solid rock/filter might be overkill but I don't see many other ways to make a poke bulky enough that it can switch into near anything. I find it hard to believe that it could take a life-orbed draco meteor and EQ (which for now I will assume is unboosted due to trace) after switching into stealth rock without a resistance, however I'll have a look at the numbers you put up. Given the HP focus, although it solves the problem of being to broad a threat, I feel like it makes becoming set-up fodder that much more of a concern.
- Status