CAP 10 CAP 10 - Concept Assessment

[Akusu]

We already have fast pokemon who carry 4x effective attacks. We definitely already have water and flying pokemon with STAB attacks. It isn't enough as they cannot switch in with impunity and even if our pokemon had the stats to switch in we already have suicunes and vaporeons etc. When it comes to mence we have pokes with Ice Shard but it doesn't push him down in usage. The way I understood this concept the new pokemon should be able to SHUT DOWN a common threat if that is what it was built to do. It can KO or cripple but it has to get in safely and then still have the ability to handle a +1 monster.

I think the mence thing has more to do with the lack of 4x resist being possible that I mentioned. This isn't so much about what we have already as coming up with something that brings the traits that you need to plug a hole. Also, I don't see this pokemon preventing the use of any specific pokemon since you can never counter everything at once, and it ideally will be used to prevent team-wide weaknesses. The worst it will do is make the FOTM pokemon have a hard time holding onto its popularity because everyone will be customizing their CAP10 to counter it.

There's no steel pokemon with Ice shard btw, at which point you would be resisting and hitting with a 4x attack. Aggron and Bastiodon know Blizzard/Ice Beam, so essentially no useful Steel-type knows those either. They both know Avalanche, as does Empoleon. Aggron and Bastiodon are also the only steels to learn Outrage.

I'm starting to think that a viable steel with ice moves available would be a definite asset.

 

[scampy]

Multitype doesn't work on duel-typed pokemon, as it changes their type, overall, to the plate's type, to my knowledge.

Besdies, there's enough of an argument for possible brokeness with just mono-multitype, Duel-Multitype, which has 'more potential' would almost certainly be uber.

Anyway, we're starting to poll jump here. Talking about Multitype as per the concept is fine. Talking about Duel-Multitypes is definite polljumping, especially when not related to the concept.

I don't get how that is definite polljumping. If you are going to so much as talk about Multitype, you need to understand its mechanics. And how is it not related to the concept? Of course it is.

As much as I would like to post an argument against all the people who think Multitype makes CAP10 Arceus Jr, I think that this discussion is a little boring and isn't helping us understand or plan out how we should be handling CAP10. I'll just post my thoughts on the stuff mentioned in the OP.

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

Forcing out is the best way, I think. Sitting around and casually walling things like Lucario and Infernape just isn't going to happen. CAP10 doesn't require much in the way of attacking stats to achieve this, as most threats in OU either have a x4 weakness or can't take a hit to begin with.

Bulkier tanks such as CM Jirachi could prove to be a little more problematic, because CAP10 isn't going to be able to muscle its way past them easily. Instead, I think that CAP10 should force Pokemon like these out with disruptive attacks like Taunt, Encore, or status.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?

Mainly it should address things offensively. This does not translate into "CAP10 should have high attacking stats", just a large enough movepool to capitilize on all of the x4 weaknesses you find in OU. Evidently some defensive options will be required for CAP10 to effectively fulfill its goal (like I mentioned before with Encore and Taunt), but I think in general we should focus on KOing threats as quickly as possible- mostly because you can't "wall" some things to begin with.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

Defensive with a sprinkle of offense to ensure that CAP10 can OHKO things like Salamence and Heatran with the right attack. You don't really need too much in the way of attacking stats, I think. The defensive stats should be as flexible as possible because CAP10 needs to counter a myriad of things that could be either physical or special, so it should have a high HP and pretty decent defenses (or does it go the other way around?).

Speed is probably going to be quite controversial as CAP10 needs to be pretty quick in order to counter things effectively- by outrunning whatever it is supposed to counter, CAP10 doesn't take a second hit upon switching in and so the Speed serves a defensive role. Too much Speed however eats away at the stat restrictions imposed by the BST limit, so we need to balance Speed carefully. As a rough estimate, I'd say something that hovers just above base 100 is a good number.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

Even if the opponent doesn't use X threat, CAP10 will probably not become a dead weight. I say this because good players will recognise that if their set becomes redundant in matches without the threat, then they will change it into something more general. I think that so long as we give CAP10 a good number of options to choose from, it will always be an asset no matter what sort of team the opponent uses.

EDIT: After skimming through the thread again, I'd just like to say that Solid Rock is an excellent ability for this concept and shouldn't be discounted just because it sounds like it should go on Rock and Ground types (i.e. flavour reasons). We shouldn't base our decisions on the traditions that Game Freak has laid out for us. I guess if people ended up being totally anal about it though, you could just take the ability and give it a new name to fit CAP10.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

How is Multitype going to allow our pokemon to resist its target's moves and have a STAB super effective move?

It's not, but that's not always gonna matter.

See, this is why I think Multitype won't work on the Pokemon. A counter needs to be able to switch into anything the Pokemon can do and immediately force it out. With only a single type in the form of Multitype, how in the world is the Pokemon going to counter Gyarados, for instance? If it's electric, it gets Earthquake'd; if it's grass or Dragon it gets Ice Fang, etc. No matter which type it takes from Multitype, it fails to soft counter the Gyarados in a variety of cases. The same goes for, say, Lucario, where if it's Ghost to beat CC/ES, it can't switch in on Crunch.

The Pokemon needs multiple types if it is to counter these heavily varied threats reliably.

Still, though, I think what we need to decide, and not just randomly argue about, is how effective and how it should go about being the counter we want CAP10 to be. Multitype can work if we don't mind it taking SE damage from some threats, or in particular if we give it immense enough defenses to take those non-STAB hits effectively. In that case, a Grass-type would be good to beat both Waterfall and EQ.

Next, we must investigate how one cripples a Pokemon enough to make it run away:

• Threaten a OHKO at it.
• Threaten a crippling status at it.

This means that the Pokemon does not need immense offensive strength to be an effective counter to a Pokemon. This can be addressed with the stats area of the CAP development process. If we work with threatening status effects, which is something that BEEJ will need to decide before continuing (offensive or defensive utility counter - I really think the clear decision here is defensive), then it will likely take the form of Paralysis and/or Burn depending on who we want CAP10 to counter in any given battle. (It'll need access to both, but won't carry both at any given time) Also, a >75% accurate burn move might be nice for a signature move if this route is taken, but that's just an idea.

 

[Str0ngbad]

Yes, a steel with ice shard would be new and very helpful. Even if something could resist dragon 4x it couldn't be weak to the dragons' other moves. The reason that steels aren't perfect counters is not due to their lack of a 4x resistance. It is due to the weaknesses that they have to other moves in the moveset. So resisting STAB is not enough to be a safe switch in. A steel monotype would still have to be able to survive one fireblast or boosted earthquake to be a solid switch in. Granted I don't think that most threats will be as hard to address as they usually have a larger pool of weaknesses/types that resist them.

 

[Azule]

Yes, a steel with ice shard would be new and very helpful. Even if something could resist dragon 4x it couldn't be weak to the dragons' other moves. The reason that steels aren't perfect counters is not due to their lack of a 4x resistance. It is due to the weaknesses that they have to other moves in the moveset. So resisting STAB is not enough to be a safe switch in. A steel monotype would still have to be able to survive one fireblast or boosted earthquake to be a solid switch in. Granted I don't think that most threats will be as hard to address as they usually have a larger pool of weaknesses/types that resist them.

This is CAP. If thats a problem, lets make a Water/Steel with Levitate, for example.

I'd rather see colour change as an ability rather than Multitype, as with a fair amount of bulk, it could counter most types apart from dragon, but it could be fast enough/strong enough to KO it with Ice Beam/Shard before it takes another hit.

 

[Xatu fan]

I think I should add something here. Has anyone thought that if CAP10 had ice shard or something for mence. They will start holding Yache berries?

 

[Akusu]

I think I should add something here. Has anyone thought that if CAP10 had ice shard or something for mence. They will start holding Yache berries?

I'll take that over the current trend of banding and life orbing.

 

[Naxte]

This is CAP. If thats a problem, lets make a Water/Steel with Levitate, for example.

I'd rather see colour change as an ability rather than Multitype, as with a fair amount of bulk, it could counter most types apart from dragon, but it could be fast enough/strong enough to KO it with Ice Beam/Shard before it takes another hit.

That's the problem with Color Change though--it does nothing at all to Ghost and Dragon-types without a very large amount of bulk and ability to hit them back hard, instead only making the problem worse. It also completely ignores the fact that Pokemon use movesets with moves of multiple-types. For example, Starmie can use Surf on it for a potentially neutral hit or whatever to start off, and then go for super-effective with Thunderbolt. Metagross can attack with Meteor Mash, and then Earthquake. Ttar can use Stone Edge, followed by Earthquake. Gyarados can use Earthquake, followed by Waterfall. Zapdos can use HP Grass, and then Heat Wave. Etc. The ability is just extremely easy to exploit by a huge number of Pokemon.

Due to that, Color Change with another problem... having to survive that first hit, preferably with enough health left over to take another one or two hits, or otherwise being able to destroy the opposing Pokemon after the first hit, so that it can't simply be set-up on.

Not to mention it's completely unreliable and unpredictable how things will work out for a Color Change user during battle. After all, you'll be constantly changing type, making STAB moves pretty worthless as it will practically never be its original type. Thus, you have to work under the assumption that it will never have STAB to do what it needs to do when its out, which would increase the amount of strength it needs to do the job.

All in all, Color Change just seems like a horrible ability to me.

Personally though, I really like Multitype, as it pretty much fulfills the concept in a nutshell--it allows CAP10 to handle certain batches of Pokemon with a certain Plate/moveset, but not more than that, as it can only be holding one plate/have one moveset at a time. Thus, CAP10 will be extremely flexible in the number of Pokemon it can counter overall, but yet would have to be made specific to only handle a small number of those Pokemon... just exactly as the concept entails.

Now then, as for some of the concerns I've been seeing for Multitype. First off, yes, it would need a huge movepool. But then again, so do most of these ideas, as in order to be able to capably handle such a wide array of Pokemon as CAP10 is meant to, it needs one. However, that's not necessarily a problem, as a movepool in of itself does not mean anything--just look at Smeargle. Things like the stats are important too. Plus, as is being proposed for a lot of these ideas, we can keep the movepool from being too huge by making good use of Egg Moves and the like, forcing CAP10 to choose just the moves it needs and not have access to some of the rest of its more powerful moves.

Then, there's this conception of Multitype being an "Uber Ability" or something to that effect. However, I disagree with this. Yes, the only current user of this ability is Uber... However, that doesn't make the ability itself broken. I mean, Arceus also has a 720 BST, coming from having 120 in all stats, something that this CAP will never get. We've been quite capable in making our stat-spreads unbroken, and I don't think we'd fail here.

Plus, let's look at what exactly it is Multitype does. It just allows a Pokemon to pick which type it wants to be prior to entering battle. However, that's it--it doesn't let it change it's type mid-battle at the user's whim or anything--all it does is let you pick the Pokemon's type. And since no types are inherently broken, this really shouldn't be an issue at all. Plus, to pick a type, you have to attach a Plate--that means no Leftovers, Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Band, etc, on non-Normal sets, limiting it's offensive and defensive abilities on such sets. Thus, what it can do is really dependent upon its stats, ultimately.

Which leads me back to my prior point--as long as we don't give it Arceus-esque BST and stat distribution (which we won't), there shouldn't be a problem, as it needs that to make up for the fact that it can't hold other items enough to push it into being Uber. Without such crazy stats, I severely doubt that Multitype, even when coupled with a large movepool, will push CAP10 into being broken.

Multitype definitely has strengths, but it also has flaws, which helps to keep it in check. It's also a great way to fulfill the concept, one of the best I can think of, as it pretty much is the concept in a nutshell, in my opinion. Thus, I would be more than fine with us choosing to go with it.

 

[SJCrew]

2: This gives CAP10 move coverage that isn't seen... outside of Mew, who's Uber. So, we'd be throwing the ability of an Uber, and a movepool of an Uber, onto the same pokemon.

ok, this is a very narrow-minded and misinformed opinion

A few differences between our ideal CAP and Mew:

- Mew has base 100 stats across the board. In order to avoid CAP deviating from its intended purpose, it will not have such high speed and offenses.

- Mew has SD, NP, Agility, and Baton Pass. CAP won't have these because it's not an offensive Pokemon.

- Mew has an unmatched offensive, defensive, and support movepool, as well as the stats to utilize those moves or pass them to another Pokemon. If we were to suppose CAP received the same benefits, it will be an offensive Pokemon in its own right and therefore not be a utility counter, but rather a threat all its own.

Because the Multi-type CAP 10 could literally be anything, there is no way to prepare your team against it.

Do you prepare your team against Brozong?

As a result, especially with type coverage [And if we give this thing a useable attack, and speed stat, which we will need to do, to threaten stuff]

Nope. If Gyara can't 2HKO you after a DD and you have an Electric move under your belt, consider it countered. Any wall with good type coverage can counter a specific threat.

Ability of an Uber + Movepoll of an Uber + No Way to prepare for it + No 100% counters... sounds like an Uber to me.

A Pokemon with low offenses gets walled by other walls or becomes setup fodder for other bulky sweepers. You don't prepare for something that's not fast and doesn't hit hard enough to hurt anything aside from what it was intended to.

this CAP will be difficult to counter in it's own right, nothing would be guarenteed to switch in safe.

There are other ways to go about this CAP othr than slapping Multi-type on it. We just need to not tke the easy, and possibly broken, route.

Of course it's broken, you just made your own CAP and told us it will be broken.

The problem is, you're going about this the wrong way. CAP 10 has not been created yet, we're still brainstorming on ways this idea could come to fruition. Assume for the sake of the argument that it isn't broken rather than coming up with ways it will be. There is nothing intrinsically broken about the concept of an all-coverage wall because it is a wall, and without access to instant boosting moves or good speed, it cannot become a tangible offensive threat.

I think one of the major roadblocks we're running into is how Steel is the only resist to dragon, and there's only 2 ways to put the hurt on dragon.... dragon and ice. Both Steel and Ice are weak to Fire, Steel is weak to ground which is neutral against Ice. Ice in fact only resists Ice. Also, we have no way to give a 4x resist to dragon which is why a true counter has never been found.

If we give it just enough on both defenses to take a hit from Draco Meteor and Outrage on the New Mixmence set (like Cresselia, for instance) it should be fine. We just have to make sure its offensive stats and overall movepool stay in line so that we're not creating an Uber.

 

[Str0ngbad]

Those are very reasonable arguments Naxte but the main problem with multitype you still did not cover. If a pokemon can be hit for super effective damage by ANY of the powerful moves in a sweepers moveset, not just the STAB ones, it becomes a much less viable counter. Monotyping just does not offer the ability to switch in without a LOT of base defensive stats that a dual typing can by nature of its resistances. Add that to the fact that you can no longer have a helpful item or ability like solid rock, levitate, intimidate, etc and it seems to me that multitype, broken or not, just doesn't offer the defensive qualities that a counter needs. It is certainly the most versatile ability but not very practical for a pokemon who's primary job is switching into very powerful attacks and remaining a threat.

 

[Seizen]

For all who read this: I apologize for the poll-jumping. This is merely to show that we can use mono-typing + ability to realise a concept.

Are we looking for a way to avoid Super Effective hits? I can do that by mono-typing. It's very simple - Electric Pkmn w/ Levitate. Electric Types have only Ground weaknesses, and Levitate completely removes that. Then we can fiddle with the stats at our leisure and pleasure, and while it'll have a weakness exploitable (Gravity), it's not so huge that it's easily counterable. Plus, to truly counter CAP 10 if it goes this way, you'd need to revamp your team entirely to do so, unless you play Gravity teams. And our Utility Counter is probably looking to counter offensive threats, not almost-gimmick teams.

Anyway, keeping with the Electric-type trend, Electric types can learn some moves from the following types: Fire; Ice; Grass; Ground; Dragon; Fighting; Dark; Psychic; Rock; Flying; Water; Steel; Normal; Poison; Bug; Ghost and of course Electric. It all depends on the Pokemon, and some can learn more moves of certain types than others, but it means we have a perfect allowance of moves without looking into Hidden Power.

Electric typing now allows for both Atk and SpAtk varients, and there can be bulky Electric types to resist Physical and Special attacks. This is a CAP concept - which means we can control and customize it to see fit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, with that point out of the way...

Multitype is a 50/50 thing - on the one hand, we have no access to items save plates unless we want a Normal-type on it. Which means it's not that broken. Secondly, we could make it so while it can learn moves of each typing, it's similar to Rotom, in that it doesn't keep them on anything but that particular type.
After all, I'd want to keep Leaf Storm and stick it on my Rotom-H, but I can't as the attack is switched depending on the form. Obviously, this needs to be thought out and edited to make properly playable, but moves such as Overheat, Leaf Storm and Hydro Pump could easily be said to be unavailable to all but the chosen type.
On the other hand, Multityping leaves us with huge weaknesses in the form of never being able to resist the multitude of moves it's chosen counterable Pokmon has on offer and also the fact we cannot be immune to certain weaknesses.

@Dr. Mank: Wow, it can run Ice Beam + Thunderbolt. So can Dragonite. If it doesn't have the necessary stats to hit anything for KOs without Super-Effective hits, most of which relying on 4x Effective, then the huge range of moves doesn't do diddly for it.

 

[Xatu fan]

With Multitype, I was just about too type what Fear my Shuckle said. I think that a good idea is too give this pokemon base 80 or base 90 in all stats, and give it an ability too or, double a certain defence, or double or 2.5 the amount of a stat EVs give. 90 base power is enough too OHKO salamence with an ice beam, and ice shard after rocks. It's enough too kill tyranitar with a fighting move, it's enough too kill Heatran with a ground type move. And the bulk will allow it too kill pokemon that don't have 4x weaknesses. This was the moveset will only allow it too counter a specific threat and it will not get broken

 

[ATray]

Multitype is still not perfect. I say we form an ability with a customisable immunity, which would:

Allow our CAP to switch into Breloom's Spore with impunity with a Grass immunity
Allow our CAP to switch into Blissey's Thunder Wave or Toxic with a Electric or Poison immunity
Allow our CAP to switch into a Salemence locked into Outrage with a Dragon immunity

Generally, this ability is customisable to handle walls by preventing them from stalling our CAP to death with status, and handle sweepers by being immune to their STABs and revenge killing.

Because we want to restrict this CAP's offensive movepool as much as possible, it could be handled with a custom designed physical Hidden Power, which combined with the regular special hidden power would given absolute coverage, although not all at once.

 

[AlphaBravo]

I'll like to note that Multitype only affects the primary type. We can give our Pok'emon a Secondary Type, like Steel, and have ?/Steel-type Pok'emon.

I used ?/Steel as a type because it has great potential. If we are Special (Hidden Power) and/or have a reasonable non-STAB movepool, these combos would be nice.

+------+------------+--------+---------+  
|    1 | Scizor     | 217219 |   28.90 | Ghost
|    2 | Tyranitar  | 168542 |   22.43 | Dragon for DD/Special variants, Grass for others
|    3 | Salamence  | 167840 |   22.33 | Flying for DD, Water for mix (assuming SpD)
|    4 | Heatran    | 161064 |   21.43 | Water (kinda)
|    5 | Latias     | 160676 |   21.38 | Grass
|    6 | Rotom-A    | 152909 |   20.35 | Dragon
|    7 | Gyarados   | 140890 |   18.75 | Grass or Water (EQ vs. Bounce)
|    8 | Jirachi    | 135745 |   18.06 | Electric or Fire
|    9 | Metagross  | 128249 |   17.06 | Bug
|   10 | Gengar     | 110599 |   14.72 | Ghost
|   11 | Swampert   | 108579 |   14.45 | Grass
|   12 | Lucario    | 107548 |   14.31 | Ghost
|   13 | Infernape  | 107524 |   14.31 | This is a problem. We can't.
|   14 | Starmie    |  91560 |   12.18 | Grass or Ghost (for spinblocking).
|   15 | Blissey    |  87757 |   11.68 | Not a offensive threat. Water for fire resist.
|   16 | Gliscor    |  82044 |   10.92 | Flying
|   17 | Azelf      |  78160 |   10.40 | Dragon
|   18 | Magnezone  |  74714 |    9.94 | Dragon
|   19 | Skarmory   |  72901 |    9.70 | Electric
|   20 | Vaporeon   |  68829 |    9.16 | Dragon or Grass

Grass looks like the most common one at 6/20 - we can make it the natural type.
Dragon is a close second at 5/20 - also a good choice.

I also hope this thing dosen't get Draco Meteor - Balanced Pok'emon + Draco Meteor = not-so-balanced Pok'emon.

 

[Objection]

What happens if you attach the Steel-type plate to a Multitype Normal/Steel pokemon? Steel/Steel? Does that mean all its weaknesses and resistances are doubled?

 

[Xatu fan]

I think it will have no effect. And that is a good Idea AlphaBravo. But what about Ape? We need something for it

 

[Naxte]

I'll like to note that Multitype only affects the primary type. We can give our Pok'emon a Secondary Type, like Steel, and have ?/Steel-type Pok'emon.

Actually, from what I can gather, it's unknown how exactly Multitype would work in that case (but, to prevent stuff like the Steel/Steel that Objection brought up, it most likely would just change that Pokemon completely to whatever type). The only testing done on it in regards to this in the Research threads reveals that Multitype fails on Pokemon that aren't Arceus and they just keep their original type:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=516812&postcount=253

Edit: I can't find anything in the Research threads about how Color Change would work in that same situation with a quick look here. However, according to Lorak here, Color Change does revert a double-typed Pokemon to just a single type. Thus, I'd expect Multitype to work similarly if it did work on other Pokemon:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1015060&postcount=1395

 

[ShravanP]

Though I mention some future aspects in this post, it is not with the intention of poll-jumping. I just feel that this is something we need to think about if we are to seriously consider Multitype
--------------------------------

How does Multitype turn this into an offensive threat? Being a threat on offense depends on movepool, items, and ability. Multitype basically removes two of those, and we will also have complete freedom to choose the movepool we want. If we end up having to 'prepare teams against CAP10', we can know for sure that we've failed in realizing the concept.

My main issue with Multitype is not its usefulness or viability in regards to this concept. I strongly feel that it can work very beautifully for CAP10. My hesitation has more to do with how much Multitype dominates the other steps in the process. As far as we know, Multitype can only work on a monotype Pokemon, and that too we only know it to work with Normal (no data on other types). What this means is that when we do the Typing discussion and typing poll, we'll basically end up presenting all our arguments revolving around 'yes on multitype' or 'no on multitype, let's try this instead'. Those who want it will promote Normal, most likely. Those who don't want it will be the only ones actually discussing and voting over a type. In essence, we're turning the Typing discussion into and Ability discussion. I feel that it just dominates so many aspects of the overall Pokemon that it runs the risk of making some of these discussions rather lame, pointless, and/or boring. But if any of these issues can somehow be avoided, then I see no problems with Multitype.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

What happens if you attach the Steel-type plate to a Multitype Normal/Steel pokemon? Steel/Steel? Does that mean all its weaknesses and resistances are doubled?

As far as I know, every monotype pokémon is programmed as Type/Type. Which means a Steel/Steel pokémon would be like your regular Mawile/Registeel.

Actually, from what I can gather, it's unknown how exactly Multitype would work in that case (but, to prevent stuff like the Steel/Steel that Objection brought up, it most likely would just change that Pokemon completely to whatever type). The only testing done on it in regards to this in the Research threads reveals that Multitype fails on Pokemon that aren't Arceus and they just keep their original type:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=516812&postcount=253

Edit: I can't find anything in the Research threads about how Color Change would work in that same situation with a quick look here. However, according to Lorak here, Color Change does revert a double-typed Pokemon to just a single type. Thus, I'd expect Multitype to work similarly if it did work on other Pokemon:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1015060&postcount=1395

I'd like to note that, at least in RSE, Castform's ability also fails on anything else, which clearly implies the pokémon must have multiple forms, one for each type, programmed in the coding.

 

[ShravanP]

As far as I know, every monotype pokémon is programmed as Type/Type. Which means a Steel/Steel pokémon would be like your regular Mawile/Registeel.



I'd like to note that, at least in RSE, Castform's ability also fails on anything else, which clearly implies the pokémon must have multiple forms, one for each type, programmed in the coding.

What about Kecleon then? Any data on that?

 

[Avocado15]

Well, let's ask ourselves a question. Why would someone making a team, when trying to counter a certain Pokemon (i.e. Gyarados) use CAP10 over already solid counters to Gyarados (HP Ele Suicune, Porygon2, etc)? If CAP10 is designed so that it can "utility" counter a certain Pokemon or group of similar Pokemon (Gyarados and Feraligatr, as someone mentioned), and a CAP10 is switched into Gyarados, the opponent knows that the purpose of the teammaker's CAP10 is to counter Gyarados. Thus, that CAP10 becomes very easy to work around/defeat. On the other hand, Porygon2 and Suicune fill a wide variety of roles and are not solely equipped with Gyarados-defeating abilities.

I guess this could be looked at as me disagreeing with the concept of a Utility Counter, but what I'm really trying to say is that CAP10 needs to be designed with enough Stats, Ability, and Movepool so that it can very well counter whatever specific Pokemon it is equipped to counter, but also so that CAP10 can be its own Pokemon (not just an X-counter) with its own purpose and role. This will increase the effectiveness, the unpredictability, and the contribution of CAP10 to its team. Besides, once Gyarados has been defeated, CAP10 needs to be able to still do something to avoid being dead weight.

 

[Naxte]

If we end up having to 'prepare teams against CAP10', we can know for sure that we've failed in realizing the concept.

Can you explain this a bit more? How does that make the concept fail? The point is to make a Pokemon that can potentially handle any of a great array of Pokemon. Thus, if most Pokemon do indeed have to be prepared to face CAP10 regardless of who they are, does that not mean the concept has succeeded? And since which of those Pokemon it will be able to face off against exactly depends on the type it chooses and the moves it chooses to go along with it, and it won't simply be able to face all of them at once, it also doesn't seem to fail in the "only a few at a time" part, so I in no way see how this would be a failure to realize the concept.

As far as we know, Multitype can only work on a monotype Pokemon, and that too we only know it to work with Normal (no data on other types). What this means is that when we do the Typing discussion and typing poll, we'll basically end up presenting all our arguments revolving around 'yes on multitype' or 'no on multitype, let's try this instead'. Those who want it will promote Normal, most likely. Those who don't want it will be the only ones actually discussing and voting over a type. In essence, we're turning the Typing discussion into and Ability discussion. I feel that it just dominates so many aspects of the overall Pokemon that it runs the risk of making some of these discussions rather lame, pointless, and/or boring. But if any of these issues can somehow be avoided, then I see no problems with Multitype.

Yeah, it does have a large impact on the other portions of the process due to its unique nature amongst abilities. However, short of a custom ability with a very similar nature (making CAP10 immune to certain types of the user's choice, etc, essentially accomplishing the same thing), Multitype is one of the best ways of making this concept succeed, as its nature embodies the concept to a T, letting it potentially handle anything, but at the same time having the limitations which forces it to focus on a certain set of threats. Very little else embodies the broadness of the concept like Multitype does.

There is the idea of simply making a Pokemon that's neutral to most attacks, but that doesn't seem to work without giving the Pokemon extreme amount of bulk. I mean, just look at Blissey as compared to things like Porygon-2 and Spiritomb. The former is the best special wall in the game, which is why it can get into OU, but the latter two, despite having some bulk, just don't have enough. And the latter two also have some offensive power as well. So quite clearly we'd need a Pokemon that has more bulk then them. I suppose this may be possible basing the stats around something like Porygon-2, which only has a BST of like 515, but I still wonder how good it would turn out that way. I mean, I would say Porygon2 also has some stat waste and some could simply be cut off of Attack and Speed to make it more bulky and give it more Special Attack, but this concept demands that the Pokemon be versatile. Some Pokemon are hit harder by Physical attacks; other by Special. Thus, we don't want to make either of its offensive stats too low. To the same ends, we also wouldn't want to make it too slow. So I'm just really curious if something based around the Porygon2 model could in fact end up working, whereas Multitype seems to be more of a safe bet either way.

But in any case, I suppose as far as that stuff is concerned, the only way would be to try it out and see what ends up happening, so I suppose I definitely am open to such options, and would be excited to find out just how they'll turn out should we choose them. And well... I'm not sure where exactly I'm going with this anymore, so I suppose I'll end this off by saying that it will probably just be best for people to simply vote for what they feel is best, and if we do wind up with any problems due to the results, we'll find a way to handle and deal with them at that time.

 

[Seizen]

Well, let's ask ourselves a question. Why would someone making a team, when trying to counter a certain Pokemon (i.e. Gyarados) use CAP10 over already solid counters to Gyarados (HP Ele Suicune, Porygon2, etc)? If CAP10 is designed so that it can "utility" counter a certain Pokemon or group of similar Pokemon (Gyarados and Feraligatr, as someone mentioned), and a CAP10 is switched into Gyarados, the opponent knows that the purpose of the teammaker's CAP10 is to counter Gyarados. Thus, that CAP10 becomes very easy to work around/defeat. On the other hand, Porygon2 and Suicune fill a wide variety of roles and are not solely equipped with Gyarados-defeating abilities.

I guess this could be looked at as me disagreeing with the concept of a Utility Counter, but what I'm really trying to say is that CAP10 needs to be designed with enough Stats, Ability, and Movepool so that it can very well counter whatever specific Pokemon it is equipped to counter, but also so that CAP10 can be its own Pokemon (not just an X-counter) with its own purpose and role. This will increase the effectiveness, the unpredictability, and the contribution of CAP10 to its team. Besides, once Gyarados has been defeated, CAP10 needs to be able to still do something to avoid being dead weight.

Yes, but it's supposed to be a soft counter. In other words, it will probably run one status effect in order to hit a number of opponents. It's difficult to look at it like this, as the concept is broad and vague, and there isn't any boundaries yet.

Besides, unless the team you face is made up of unrelated Pkmn, most teams have a subtle incline into certain areas. For example, I tend to run a sweeping team, one which has a general weakness to Defence-high Pkmn which run Special moves. This isn't to say I'm defeated by them, but certain switches and moves are tailored to take care of certain threats. So if a Defence-high CAP 10 switched into my team, I'd have to run a switch or two allowing it to set-up if not the right Pokemon to take it on. Or to damage my new Pokemon to allow it safe passage.

Plus, if you run a Special Wall, and your opponent is playing Stall, it doesn't make your Pkmn useless. Rather, as long as it has an Attack and/or can inflict status, it's still useful, just it's initial purpose isn't there anymore. If I run Blissey, mine tends to have Ice Beam/ T-bolt for type coverage and so it isn't completely stopped by Taunt. Similarly, it can switch into Draco Meteors and then OHKO or 2HKO it's opponent. That doesn't make my Blissey a Tank, but it does mean that it can do other things other than sit there and take damage.

 

[ShravanP]

Can you explain this a bit more? How does that make the concept fail? The point is to make a Pokemon that can potentially handle any of a great array of Pokemon. Thus, if most Pokemon do indeed have to be prepared to face CAP10 regardless of who they are, does that not mean the concept has succeeded? And since which of those Pokemon it will be able to face off against exactly depends on the type it chooses and the moves it chooses to go along with it, and it won't simply be able to face all of them at once, it also doesn't seem to fail in the "only a few at a time" part, so I in no way see how this would be a failure to realize the concept.

I think you misread what I said, Naxte. What I mean is that if CAP10 turns into a force of its own and causes other teams to try and PREPARE AGAINST IT--i.e., just like we make sure to have a Salamence check or a Tyranitar check, if opponents start having to make CAP10 checks--then we have failed to create a utility counter and have instead made a utility attacker. The concept is not what fails in that case; the creation fails to realize, or match, the concept. And I was just saying that using Multitype does not mean that CAP10 will automatically turn into an offensive force.

 

[Zystral]

I think you misread what I said, Naxte. What I mean is that if CAP10 turns into a force of its own and causes other teams to try and PREPARE AGAINST IT--i.e., just like we make sure to have a Salamence check or a Tyranitar check, if opponents start having to make CAP10 checks--then we have failed to create a utility counter and have instead made a utility attacker. The concept is not what fails in that case; the creation fails to realize, or match, the concept. And I was just saying that using Multitype does not mean that CAP10 will automatically turn into an offensive force.

The point of Utility Counter is supposed to be unlimited versatility and customization. It would therefore be impossible to try to prepare against it. Regardless of Multitype, through movepool or stats alone you would have to prepare for essentially 4 different 'Mons at once.

Also, if CAP 10 is so amazing that it causes other people to be prepared to counter a counter, then I think we can safely call that 'overcentralization' which we all know means Uber.

It's for that sole reason that when it comes to typing and movepool that we must take the extreme sides of each potential. This is why I think Multitype is a good ability; you can take on one thing but it flops against something else. This is the exact type of 'dead weight without purpose' I want to achieve, in order to maintain balance.
Even with the movepool, it must contain the right moves and limitations so that you can only take on a concentrated group at once without being comfortable against another.