USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[justdrew]

Thoughts on Hilomilo's post:

Latias up to S: Strongly Agree:

In my opinion the most consistent, and best scarfer. With an amazing Speed tier at 110 Latias is able to outspeed most viable scarfers. With powerful STAB attacks, access to Defog, Healing Wish, Trick, and Bolt Beam, it deals with so much in the current meta. Calm Mind Dragonium/Elelectrium Z is unbelievably strong, Latias has amazing bulk which makes it very difficult for it to be revenge killed by scarfers like Infernape, Hydreigon, and Latias, as well as Mega Manectric and Mega Aerodactyl. Specs Latias, a set brought back to life courtesy of Accelgor, is also extremely powerful and allows Latias to be a breaker because scarf doesn't have the necessary power. Over all I think Latias defines the current meta, with the ability to stomache attacks from Breloom, Azumarill, and Gliscor and deal massive damage in return it is the perfect choice for bulky offense, balance, and hyper offense teams to act as a revenge killer, sweeper, or breaker.

Mega Sceptile down to B: Disagree:

While Mega Sceptile isn't a super important part of the meta it shouldn't be discounted. Lately a stall breaker set for Mega Sceptile adapted by Sage of the 6 on Creative and Underrated sets, originally created by someone, I'm not sure who, is very good against stall teams in general because of the advantage Grass types have against the Quagsire and Alomomola stall cores.

Set

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Iron Tail
- Earthquake

Although it has seen low usage it is in my opinion that its viability has not decreased and that it has stayed a consistent offensive threat in the meta game.

Metagross down to C+: Agree:

Metagross really isn't an overwhelming Pokemon as offensive utility, Assault Vest user, or even Agility sweeper. Alolan Muk outclasses it as a switch in to Latias and can also switch in to Ghost-types like Gengar and Chandelure while Metagross can't. Metagross also can't switch in on or take attacks from Hydreigon and other Dark-types while Alolan Muk can while both are weak to Ground-types. With no access to Attack boosting moves, Meteor Mash excluded, Metagross doesn't have much opportunity for sweeping. Scizor is much better as a Bullet Punch user while also using U Turn for momentum. Even as a Stealth Rock setter with Shuca Berry Metagross is outclassed by Cobalion because it has no breaking potential after rocks are set.

Chandelure up to B+: Agree

Although Chandelure isn't the best Speed control it is an insanely powerful breaker. With Scizor and Breloom being massive threats, and having amazing offensive typing, Chandelure is more powerful than ever. Chandelure makes a name for itself by having very little switch ins, even Dragon-types like Hydreigon and Latias take a lot of damage from Choice Specs Fire Blast.

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 116-137 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 159-187 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

Other fun and powerful Chandelure sets include Substitute + Calm Mind, and Ghostium Z. Both of these pressure all team types, Substitute + Calm Mind breaks through stall by Chandelure being completely immune to Blissey's attacks, while Ghostium Z allows Chandelure to unleash a powerful nuke against any wall.

Mega Aggron up to A: Strongly Agree:

We live in a Mega Aggron world. Whether it's stall, balance, or bulky offense this Pokemon is strong. It is able to eat so many attacks with Filter and it's all around defensive stats allow it to wall so much of the meta. Backed by wish pass and support from other Pokemon Mega Aggrons power is untamed. I think it is up to snuff with the rest of the Pokemon in A because of its versatility. Mega Aggron does have recovery in Rest which allows it to be self sufficient as a Rest + Talk + Curse sweeper. I think its usage speaks for itself and that it deserves a rise because of its influence on the meta and general strength.

Mega Houndoom up to A-: Disagree:

I never saw much good in Mega Houndoom since its drop and Drought was banned. I completely agree with Hilomilo, too much in the meta game pressures Mega Houndoom for it to be worth of A-. B+ is good enough for it or maybe even too good. With low defensive stats it is hard for it to Nasty Plot or Flame Charge and even then it is pressured by the strong priority users in the tier (Azu, Loom, Sciz). To make it good on a team it has to be strictly built around and all of its threats have to have solid checks making it a struggle. I think it should stay where it is or maybe move down because it is an underwhelming threat.


Now for a nomination of my own:

Mega Abomasnow up to B- (I Disagree With It Dropping)

First off, B- rank is meant for Pokemon that aren't extremely viable but have versatility and a niche that makes them unique from others. I believe Mega Abomasnow fits these categories. I recognize it is very weak to threats like Mega Aggron, Breloom, Scizor, and Chandelure, but those mons already threaten so much, and Mega Abomasnow has so much untapped power.

Focus Punch Stall Breaker

Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Blizzard
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Focus Punch

Calc

4 Atk Abomasnow-Mega Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 498-586 (69.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

Shout out to sparrow for giving me this set. Not many people know this but Mega Abomasnow is a terrifying stall breaker because it can Focus Punch Blissey on the switch doing massive damage even while uninvested. Being a Grass-type it beats Alomomola, Azumarill and Quagsire, as well as being an Ice-type in a meta where Mamoswine is banned, it puts pressure on Dragon-types and walls like Hippowdon, Swampert, and Gliscor. Hidden Power Fire is an easy way to lure in Scizor, although be weary of a possible banded Bullet Punch coming your way!

Swords Dance Sweeper

Abomasnow @ Abomasite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ice Shard
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake

This set performs just as well versus stall and other team types while also having priority for threats like Hydreigon, Mega Aerodactyl, and Latias. Pretty much serves the same purpose as the set above.

I always encourage the use of underrated Pokemon and believe Mega Abomasnow is deserving of B-. Again being an Ice-type in a meta where there are few, having mixed offensive stats, priority, and bulk make it a viable offensive threat.

Bonus Replay

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-718688940

Any comments are appreciated! Bye now :)

 

[explodingdaisies]

I wanna nom registeel for at least C+. I understand it's incredibly passive, but with the classic regimola core, it is extremely hard to wear down and can eat special attacks for days. Yes it only fits on stall or semi stall teams, but with its insane 150/150 defenses and mono steel typing, Registeel carves out a nice niche on fat teams.

 

[justdrew]

To add on to my previous post here's a more to the point reasoning as to why Mega Abomasnow should be B-. C+ is a tier for Pokemon that are outclassed. Mega Abomasnow is a Grass-type in a tier littered with bulky Water-types, and an Ice-type in a tier lacking good Ice-types. Sure it's weak to Scizor and Breloom but so is half the tier so invalid argument. Also there are checks to Scizor (Tentacruel, Amoongus, Swampert, Arcanine, Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Chandelure, Hippowdon, Infernape, Mantine, Marowak, Seismitoad, Suicune, and Volcanion) and Breloom (Tentacruel, Amoongus, Crobat, Togekiss, Mega Altaria, Arcanine, Mega Aggron, Celebi, Chandelure, Gengar, Latias, and Volcanion) both offensively and defensively. If these aren't enough checks for these Pokemon then go ahead and ban them, but seriously people it's not that hard to carry a check. Also I understand that these Pokemon can have movesets or spreads that make some of these Pokemon not checks but that also forfeits a good match up against other checks. Anyways, forces out Azumarill, switchs in on Gliscor, amazing offensive typing as previously stated, and it shatters stall. It is also a Pokemon with great offensive stats making it a perfect mixed sweeper. Even though it gets god awful usage its a solid B- and I disagree with it dropping!

If you disagree comment on this post but I am sticking to this nom back to its previous tier. Thanks for reading!

On another note I nommed Registeel to C or above about a week ago. I'm not sure if it was a little too memey but I did bring solid points to the table. So I do agree with ed about it being ranked. Please read my Registeel nom if you haven't!

Also, the VR Council doesn't voice their opinions or how they make their decisions to the regular users. I think there should be a representative of the Council that can speak on their behalf about how they make decisions. Although hearing Hilomilo's opinions is good I still think more information from all of the Council members will be beneficial.

 

[sanguine]

To add on to my previous post here's a more to the point reasoning as to why Mega Abomasnow should be B-. C+ is a tier for Pokemon that are outclassed. Mega Abomasnow is a Grass-type in a tier littered with bulky Water-types, and an Ice-type in a tier lacking good Ice-types.

The reason that the tier has few ice types is exactly because of how bad bad the type is. As a Grass-type, it’s not a good check to most Water-types due to the fact that SD or that bad Focus Punch set you brought up is completely neutered by Scald burn, and Mixed Attacker is also practically completely reliant on EQ to hit any non-Scizor Steel-Type, so that’s not safe either. Add in the fact that it is weak to rocks makes it unreliable as a defensive answer to Water-types as a whole. And before you say “offensive check”, I will let you know that Celebi/MScept/Serperior aren’t exclusively offensive checks, and they are better as Grass-types for that reason.

Sure it's weak to Scizor and Breloom but so is half the tier so invalid argument. Also there are checks to Scizor (Tentacruel, Amoongus, Swampert, Arcanine, Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Chandelure, Hippowdon, Infernape, Mantine, Marowak, Seismitoad, Suicune, and Volcanion) and Breloom (Tentacruel, Amoongus, Crobat, Togekiss, Mega Altaria, Arcanine, Mega Aggron, Celebi, Chandelure, Gengar, Latias, and Volcanion) both offensively and defensively. If these aren't enough checks for these Pokemon then go ahead and ban them, but seriously people it's not that hard to carry a check.

Just because a lot of mons lose to Breloom/Scizor doesn’t discount the fact that Abomasnow loses to them. If a metagame is unfriendly to Abomasnow, then it is simply not that viable. The problem is that Abomasnow provides little defensive utility, is slow, and loses to some of the most common and prevelant pokemon in the tier. It’s not that we have to run checks, it’s that outside of being a wallbreaker (because god knows we have too many of those), it completely does nothing else. It loses to every single faster mon in the the tier that isn’t weak to Ice Shard, which some don’t even run. It forces removal onto your team, it forces you to run another water switch-in. Every single Grass-type outside of Loom (and even then it can run like bad PHeal sets) doesn’t have these problems. Not even Kyurem defensively or Mega Glalie with its spike setting have such lack of utility or speed, and the fact that you mention something completely unviable like Arcanine in a thread where you’re explicitly told not to discuss it, speaks to your lack of knowledge on the metagame.

Anyways, forces out Azumarill, switchs in on Gliscor, amazing offensive typing as previously stated, and it shatters stall. It is also a Pokemon with great offensive stats making it a perfect mixed sweeper. Even though it gets god awful usage its a solid B- and I disagree with it dropping!

SD Gliscor beats Aboma after two Stealth Rock Switch-ins, but your Azumarill comments are especially laughable.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow-Mega: 256-303 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Azumarill is CB in my experience about 85% of the time, or it’s BD, who probably is BDing and killing you when you bring it in later anyway, assuming you’re not going hard into it. Better yet, it’s trapper, who completely hard walls you anyway. Abomasnow is no check to Azumarill. It’s not even a good “mixed sweeper” because of how slow,weak to priority, and prediction reliant it really is, and shouldn’t rise at all.

P.S. You're nomming it to rise, it dropped last update, and its low usage probably speaks to exactly how bad it is. Have a wonderful day.

 

[justdrew]

Calling Scizor and Breloom, two Pokemon, the meta game is false. I also should have mentioned Choice Band Azumarill which is a common Azumarill set, when it gets locked into a Water-type move it is forced out. Also low usage doesn't speak to a Pokemon's relevance or viability. And after playing this tier for 5 months I feel that I have very accurate knowledge of the meta game. Now your comment on Arcanine brings me to a point of discussion I've been waiting a long time to bring up. Last year pokeisfun made a post bringing up some very good reasons as to why Arcanine shouldn't be D tier. After Arcanine being UU for so long people still don't realize that it will continue to get usage, and it will most likely not drop. D tier, other than a place to put relatively shit UU mons, is the council's dumping ground for the Pokemon they don't want in their tier. Ambipom and Forretress suck completely, but Arcanine doesn't. Sure it's a Fire-type which on it's own isn't the best typing. It doesn't have dual stab, there isn't anything unique about it other than it having Intimidate, recovery, willow wisp, and general bulk for a Fire-type. But putting it in D tier suggests that it is totally useless, that it has no viability, and that it is worse than the Pokemon in C-. I understand I am not supposed to talk about this mon. But I think after being in UU for a very long time, it should be talked about. I know plenty of people will disagree with me and I will probably get plenty of hate, but this is Pokemon so why should I care.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Calling Scizor and Breloom, two Pokemon, the meta game is false. I also should have mentioned Choice Band Azumarill which is a common Azumarill set, when it gets locked into a Water-type move it is forced out. Also low usage doesn't speak to a Pokemon's relevance or viability. And after playing this tier for 5 months I feel that I have very accurate knowledge of the meta game. Now your comment on Arcanine brings me to a point of discussion I've been waiting a long time to bring up. Last year pokeisfun made a post bringing up some very good reasons as to why Arcanine shouldn't be D tier. After Arcanine being UU for so long people still don't realize that it will continue to get usage, and it will most likely not drop. D tier, other than a place to put relatively shit UU mons, is the council's dumping ground for the Pokemon they don't want in their tier. Ambipom and Forretress suck completely, but Arcanine doesn't. Sure it's a Fire-type which on it's own isn't the best typing. It doesn't have dual stab, there isn't anything unique about it other than it having Intimidate, recovery, willow wisp, and general bulk for a Fire-type. But putting it in D tier suggests that it is totally useless, that it has no viability, and that it is worse than the Pokemon in C-. I understand I am not supposed to talk about this mon. But I think after being in UU for a very long time, it should be talked about. I know plenty of people will disagree with me and I will probably get plenty of hate, but this is Pokemon so why should I care.

What does Arcanine actually do that other Fire-types actually don't? It's certainly not usurping Entei and Infernape as physical attackers. Its only plausible role is some sort of bulky pivot that has its defensive capabilities compromised by a bad typing and a weakness to Stealth Rock.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Calling Scizor and Breloom, two Pokemon, the meta game is false. I also should have mentioned Choice Band Azumarill which is a common Azumarill set, when it gets locked into a Water-type move it is forced out. Also low usage doesn't speak to a Pokemon's relevance or viability. And after playing this tier for 5 months I feel that I have very accurate knowledge of the meta game. Now your comment on Arcanine brings me to a point of discussion I've been waiting a long time to bring up. Last year pokeisfun made a post bringing up some very good reasons as to why Arcanine shouldn't be D tier. After Arcanine being UU for so long people still don't realize that it will continue to get usage, and it will most likely not drop. D tier, other than a place to put relatively shit UU mons, is the council's dumping ground for the Pokemon they don't want in their tier. Ambipom and Forretress suck completely, but Arcanine doesn't. Sure it's a Fire-type which on it's own isn't the best typing. It doesn't have dual stab, there isn't anything unique about it other than it having Intimidate, recovery, willow wisp, and general bulk for a Fire-type. But putting it in D tier suggests that it is totally useless, that it has no viability, and that it is worse than the Pokemon in C-. I understand I am not supposed to talk about this mon. But I think after being in UU for a very long time, it should be talked about. I know plenty of people will disagree with me and I will probably get plenty of hate, but this is Pokemon so why should I care.

It's simply not good. It can't do jack shit to stall and is highly outclassed by other physical fire types. It's typing is not good for a tank and it's role is not needed and for that reason is a bad pokemon in UU

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

At this point in time, especially with the influx of Defoggers, Stealth Rock weakness is such a lame reason for a Pokémon to be bad

 

[ehT]

Calling Scizor and Breloom, two Pokemon, the meta game is false. I also should have mentioned Choice Band Azumarill which is a common Azumarill set, when it gets locked into a Water-type move it is forced out. Also low usage doesn't speak to a Pokemon's relevance or viability. And after playing this tier for 5 months I feel that I have very accurate knowledge of the meta game. Now your comment on Arcanine brings me to a point of discussion I've been waiting a long time to bring up. Last year pokeisfun made a post bringing up some very good reasons as to why Arcanine shouldn't be D tier. After Arcanine being UU for so long people still don't realize that it will continue to get usage, and it will most likely not drop. D tier, other than a place to put relatively shit UU mons, is the council's dumping ground for the Pokemon they don't want in their tier. Ambipom and Forretress suck completely, but Arcanine doesn't. Sure it's a Fire-type which on it's own isn't the best typing. It doesn't have dual stab, there isn't anything unique about it other than it having Intimidate, recovery, willow wisp, and general bulk for a Fire-type. But putting it in D tier suggests that it is totally useless, that it has no viability, and that it is worse than the Pokemon in C-. I understand I am not supposed to talk about this mon. But I think after being in UU for a very long time, it should be talked about. I know plenty of people will disagree with me and I will probably get plenty of hate, but this is Pokemon so why should I care.

SMDH dude just because Council doesn’t think Arc is viable and you do doesn’t mean there’s some grand conspiracy to keep it in D. As the person who placed it in D to begin with I can tell you that the reasons I placed it there still stand. Sure it forces out Scizor and, if SR is down, Cobalion and Breloom, but that’s in literally no way unique for a fatmon, especially when you consider that the other mons that do that (Alo, Doublade, Quag, etc) not only aren’t Rocks weak, but compress infinitely more roles than just dunking on Scizor and spreading status. I’ll grant that Intim is annoying, but it’s so reliant on it between its SR weakness and pretty average bulk without Intim that, unless you have like Xatu + double Defog stall, which stopped being relevant when M-Lati got the axe, it’s gonna get overwhelmed by pretty much everything that isn’t named Scizor without much effort at all. And that’s if you can manage to justify Arc over Moltres. Arc’s just too high maintenance for its ability to stop a handful of mons to be worth it.

 

[Clefable]

A lot of users, myself included, have significant issues with Smogon being toxic and elitist, and eht's post above is a prime example of why we feel this way:

SMDH dude just because Council doesn’t think Arc is viable and you do doesn’t mean there’s some grand conspiracy to keep it in D. As the person who placed it in D to begin with I can tell you that the reasons I placed it there still stand.

This is an argument by appeal to authority. It is a justification of Arcanine's placement on the tier list based on the council's decision, followed by a claim to greater understanding of the metagame than others based on a past position of power.

When a user posts a comment on a VR thread stating a controversial opinion but is willing to back up his arguments and answer questions, the response should be discussion and honest critique, not "SMDH dude". If there are personal reasons behind the hostility shown towards the original Arcanine nominator, there is no reason for this to be brought into the viability thread.

As the introduction to the VR thread states, it's the community's duty to assess the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame, and it is the responsibility of the more knowledgeable users to encourage, not stifle, discussion.

 

[DiscoDucky]

A lot of users, myself included, have significant issues with Smogon being toxic and elitist, and eht's post above is a prime example of why we feel this way:



This is an argument by appeal to authority. It is a justification of Arcanine's placement on the tier list based on the council's decision, followed by a claim to greater understanding of the metagame than others based on a past position of power.

When a user posts a comment on a VR thread stating a controversial opinion but is willing to back up his arguments and answer questions, the response should be discussion and honest critique, not "SMDH dude". If there are personal reasons behind the hostility shown towards the original Arcanine nominator, there is no reason for this to be brought into the viability thread.

As the introduction to the VR thread states, it's the community's duty to assess the true viability of all relevant Pokemon in the UU metagame, and it is the responsibility of the more knowledgeable users to encourage, not stifle, discussion.

The community also magically meme'd Ambipon from NU to UU, so you can't necessarily argue that pure community feedback is necessarily the way to uphold the VR. If you don't like eht's response, I can word it in a more neutral tone: the costs of running Arcanine very much outweighs the benefits.

Frankly speaking, you underestimate how much the people who run the VR thread actually listen to other people's opinions. If you go back to past iterations of the VR thread with pif and whatnot, you see a lot of movements are decided by what the community posts and thinks.

The decision to place Arcanine in D was purely unanimous for two reasons. First, on paper, many people realized that it was not great compared to other options in the meta. Second, people used the pokemon and found it really unwieldy to build with or just purely underperforming.

Understand that no one is stopping you from building teams with Arcanine, but the VR decision comes from a majority consensus from the community. If anything, Clefable, what you're saying is not "we're ignoring the community opinion", but rather "my opinion is better than yours, so I'm angry about why no one is listening to or agreeing with me".

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

Shifting away from the current discussion because I don't feel like I have something to add to it and I don't think there's much more to talk about regarding Abomasnow and Arcanine, just leave it to the council at this point and move on.

I'm gonna discuss a few mons I've been using/tried out recently that I think are worth mentioning.

Registeel- Tried it after reading the post several above mine and had some fun, it operates well enough as something like a diet Mega-Aggron and definitely has a place on the tier list. Pure Steel typing is fun to have laying around in the back of a nice fat team and I sat it next to an Alolomola and it functioned alright as a Stealth Rocks setter. Definitely has passiveness issues and I can't sit here and say it deserves some sort of ringing endorsement, but C+ seems like a good spot alongside mons like Mienshao, Reuniclus, and P2 who can work in certain teams and situations but aren't gonna be your first thought when teambuilding.

Mega-Aggron- I'll keep this brief because a good enough amount has been said, but Mega-Aggron is a splashable tanks for teams that want one and is fairly simple to support on teams that want him with a cleric. The thing is though that as much as I love using him I'm not sure if he's as great as the rest of A-tier with mons like Breloom(if it winds up staying there), Cobalion, and Infernape. I believe that he should be A, but I wouldn't be surprised or offended if he didn't get moved.

Latias- It's all been said already, just voicing that I strongly agree with the move to S.

Tentacruel- Solid, easy to use spinner with good typing and should be considered when teambuilding. I don't think that this means it should be moved up though, B+ isn't a bad rank at all and I think that it's an accurate representation of Tentacruel's place since it does well but I personally don't think it does it's job as well as Starmie does its job in A-. Let Tentacruel stay in B+.

Honchkrow- Decided to toss him into a team recently just for fun, why is he on the tier list? I don't think he can clean well enough to deserve a spot on the tier list, and personally I found him more useful with Choice Band. I made a Choice Band set with Sleep Talk so it could switch in on Amoongus for fun and while it worked every now and again and CB Brave Bird can be funny as hell when it works I don't see why he's on the list. Someone who knows why he's there please explain this to me because as much as I loved using this mon in gen 6 I just think Honchkrow should be Unranked since he feels more gimmicky than anything else. Maybe I suck though idk.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

Most C- have a unique quality about them. The reason Honchrow is not unranked is because it is the tiers most reliable sucker punch sweeper. With moxie and a great attack stat it stays C- because there is no other Pokémon like it.

Serious issue with that argument, Absol-Mega exists and can Sucker Punch things to death while also having the ability to boost without Moxie and a far better speed tier. Aside from that I don't like the niche argument because in that case C- becomes open to plenty of mons that aren't there, how many mons can claim that they can do something wierd and niche? Scrafty can run Intimidate and Bulk Up/DD, so does that mean Scrafty has a niche that can put him in C-? Mawile is a Steel-Fairy with Intimidate and Stealth Rocks so can it be argued for a place in C-? Of course not on both counts, because being slightly different doesn't mean anything by itself, neither of those mons can do any job for a team well so they don't earn a spot on the tier list.

Xatu originally made it in because it had a role in the meta as an anti-meta mon even though otherwise it doesn't operate very well, that seems like a much better reason to be in C- to me since its much clearer and easier to identify than just saying that a mon has some sort of niche. Scrafty and Mawile are highly dramatic examples, but they're examples of what point I'm trying to make here. Honchkrow has something that it can hypothetically do, if your opponent let's you get a kill off you can potentially do damage with Honchkrow, but what of it? Nothing about the meta right now makes it seem like Honchkrow has a place, there isn't any trend, playstyle, or mon that's prominent that Honchkrow seems to take advantage of.

Maybe I'm wrong and if its decided that Honchkrow stays then whatever, Honchkrow is literally the mon I care the least about in my post above, but I don't like the "it has a niche" argument if I don't see any example of it performing in its niche particularly well. Honchkrow is cool and I'm fine with being proven wrong, but I know that Moxie and Sucker Punch exist and it can work as a cleaner, but does it actually do the job well? Just show me some kind of example in the current meta and I'm all good.

 

[Jade]

In my opinion, Absol does not need Swords Dance, nor is it its best set. I'd say Knock Off/Fire Blast/Sucker/Ice Beam is its best set atm, luring things like Gliscor that think it is SD and killing it. Swords Dance is a bit unreliable, as vivalospride once said "Mega Absol's niche is knocking off an item, and then dying." I don't think Absol is that good in the current meta, but I just wanted to join this discussion to say Swords Dance is a rather mediocore set for it.

 

[DurzaOffTopic]

First off I don’t think honchcrow is remotely good, it’s quite frankly a bad Pokémon and the only reason it’s ranked is because of Amane misa. I was also calling honchrow the most reliable sucker punch sweeper because I find having a powerful dual stab, brave bird, is nicer than mega absol who has no secondary typing. Both Pokémon are frail but honchrow runs adamant making it powerful whereas absol is jolly, also it can come in on a wall and boost its attack without clicking sd and risk being knocked out. Mega absol has to click swords dance which is risky since it is defensively weak.

Also you can’t compare honchrow or any of the C- tier mons to scrafty or mawhile. They are both unmons and mawhile is outclassed by krookodile as a rocker with intimidate. Scrafty is ass but shout out to faded love for losing to a scrafty I’ll link replay when I find it. Those mons have and never will be viable so no they can’t be C-..

First off, you clearly don't know your calcs. Mega Absol can run mixed sets, is initially stronger than Honchkrow and can utilize Swords Dance but in no way "has" to click swords dance, has way better coverage moves, and has a way better ability in Magic Bounce. Swords Dance is not even that risky of a play since it gets some free turns due to things being scared of sucker punch, not to mention that the best Mega Absol set doesn't even run Swords Dance. However, Honchkrow is not a bad Pokemon either and I don't think you've seriously used it.

Secondly, what an asshole. Why did you need to just attack faded love and not even have the balls to tag him on it. It was pointless, didn't contribute to your argument in the least, and just made you look bad. You talk about him (and I, for that matter) and how we apparently just "disagree with you for the sake of disagreement" but haven't even considered the fact that maybe your arguments are just bad in the first place and warrant disagreement. You've gotten personal, your arguments are weak and I thought I would stay out of this dumb discussion about shitty D rank Pokemon that nobody even cares about but you're now attacking people for no reason by saying "shoutout to faded love to losing an as pokemon" like you're some great UU player yourself. You're not.

You're showing your ignorance by using bad arguments and terrible formatting (seriously, what is this bolding whole paragraphs thinking it makes your argument more serious, lol), but now you're calling out users who disagree with you. Get your arrogant head out of your ass and stop attacking people unprovoked.

/rant

 

[Highways]

First off, you clearly don't know your calcs. Mega Absol can run mixed sets, is initially stronger than Honchkrow and can utilize Swords Dance but in no way "has" to click swords dance, has way better coverage moves, and has a way better ability in Magic Bounce. Swords Dance is not even that risky of a play since it gets some free turns due to things being scared of sucker punch, not to mention that the best Mega Absol set doesn't even run Swords Dance. However, Honchkrow is not a bad Pokemon either and I don't think you've seriously used it.

Secondly, what an asshole. Why did you need to just attack faded love and not even have the balls to tag him on it. It was pointless, didn't contribute to your argument in the least, and just made you look bad. You talk about him (and I, for that matter) and how we apparently just "disagree with you for the sake of disagreement" but haven't even considered the fact that maybe your arguments are just bad in the first place and warrant disagreement. You've gotten personal, your arguments are weak and I thought I would stay out of this dumb discussion about shitty D rank Pokemon that nobody even cares about but you're now attacking people for no reason by saying "shoutout to faded love to losing an as pokemon" like you're some great UU player yourself. You're not.

You're showing your ignorance by using bad arguments and terrible formatting (seriously, what is this bolding whole paragraphs thinking it makes your argument more serious, lol), but now you're calling out users who disagree with you. Get your arrogant head out of your ass and stop attacking people unprovoked.

/rant

I know you're hyped with the SPL stuff and farming likes ecks dee xDDDDD but hey, cmon man, this is the UU Viability Rankings Thread, just don't be that rude with a guy who's trying to contribute to this community and you're not farming likes because you #rantLMFAO someone. Please stay on topic. I also like how you called drew arrogant when you're being clearly one of the most toxic users at the moment. This applies to you as well faded love (nvm). Chill...

I'd also like to nominate Hippowdon up to A-. This Pokemon is just too good at the moment and provides a lot of role compression in one slot; it's a great phazer, is the perfect counter to Mega Manectric, has a great bulk which allows it to heal up on Scarf Hydreigon, Cobalion, Infernape, Mega Aerodactyl, Choice Banded Scizor, Krookodile, and Stakataka. Slack Off also gives it an edge over Swampert and Krookodile as a Ground-type Stealth Rocker since longevity against an offensive metagame is all a Stealth Rock setter needs. I also agree with everything Hilomilo has written, good stuff leading the thread and the discussion

 

[Lixx]

I'm going to step in and ask you both to please stop. Take it to pms or something. These are the most cringey posts I have ever had the displeasure of reading on Smogon. For the culture, grow up. My e-peen is bigger than both of you so I am allowed to ask you to stop this.

 

[Machiavelli]

Oh my goodness gracious, I remember why I wanted to stop posting here.

One of those classics you really can't ignore. Given the sheer flexibility in its sets and overall its potential to kill unprepared teams, it's pretty much S rank. Beyond that? It's a mon that has been more consistent than probably anything in the tier besides scizor. The bottom line is that latias has come out with a new set time and time again that subverts all expectations we had of it, I think that makes it a contender for the top spot.

Underutilized most of the time. As an aside, does anyone else feel like we have so many good pokemon to use there's no time to use other good pokemon? That's how I feel with chandelure. It's just a good pokemon, underrated Z sets, potential for utility moves like trick and memento with scarf or even specs, and spinblocking potential as a bonus. The most "fresh" thing to come out of this thing is the Z sets, i have no idea why the default set has been choiced when CM is a beast all on its own, particularly firium if you want to use fire blast and sacrifice PP for damage.

It's a take it or leave it kind of pokemon, and we normally put those kinds in B+. All it really does is set up spikes and twave things. If you play your cards right, it can't actually do any damage. There are niche sets like defog imprison, but that's borderline obsolete, as well as screens, which has all the problems of its spikes set but without any of the actual spikes. Pretty much a waste against someone ready to beat screens teams. I've tried this before. You have a very narrow opporunity to setup against a half-decent player. Status moves like toxic and twave are an incredible pain, but all you really have to do is pretend klefki doesn't exist, and you'd be almost 100% correct, allowing you to setup with something that doesn't mind being twaved/toxiced. People often lose to klefki because they are intimidated. Just ignore the spikes, ignore the status, and find the best way to take advantage of a pokemon that is otherwise completely useless. I swear i've seen people who forget they have an entire resttalk Suicune chilling in the back, only to bring out their defogger on klefki because they hate spikes that much.

It is a good pokemon. Objectively. Spore + setup on the same pokemon is universally considered a win, and that's before you even look at the creative sets it has on the backburner. This is honestly something that if it had a bit more speed fits the profile of an S ranker, simply due to its number of different sets and overall shaping of the meta. Right now though? A+

Why is there always such a massive obsession over these mons? Is there something about underdogs that makes you feel like they need to be coddled? There's a reason everyone forgets about them and never brings them up in VR discussion, and it's often because they are way better in the fantasy you all create in your head than they are in practise. Delete these mons.

Basically another take it or leave it mon. I want to vouch for sub seed, but serperior mostly takes over that role. SD has been in my experience too weak to justify, which i understand is no excuse given what its aims are, but are we really saying an SD user that needs spikes to be effective deserves B+? It often finds itself too weak to utilize its best set, too. The special set can't really bust through crobat or anything mildly bulky, and without any boosing moves it's borderline inferior to serperior. Actually it's special set has about the same set of problems that the SD one has. Metagame-wise, muk kills it dead, and can you believe this thing can't even ohko gengar? I get that its job is a cleaner, but compared to some of the others in B+ it's a pretty poor one at that. As a sweeper and a cleaner, it's just kind of a wet rag.

Deserves some time in the spotlight. I think another reason, above all the others, that this is doing so well, is that people are realising the potential of moves like fire punch, thunder punch, avalanche, and even twave. It could rise.

I have not used the other noms enough to really warrant discussing them. I might never use them, tbh.

edit: Hippo up to A-? Given sceptiles potential fall, aggron's potential rise, and given that most of the other noms don't affect it that much, it sounds like a recipe for success so I agree (also it's underrated on weird stall teams)

 

[dingbat]

Latias --> S: While I still believe it's a short step behind the current S rank 'mons, there's no questioning its ability to remain a more threatening force in this meta than the rest of the A+ ranks, regardless of the increase in presence of its biggest threats including Alolan Muk.

Empoleon --> B: It's continuing to lose ground in this meta, and Breloom's presence in this meta hurt it more than it helped it.

Stakataka --> B+, but no lower: Stakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakatakataka still scares me so bad that I have to run Impish Nature on SR Gliscor sets

Florges --> C: Heavily outperformed by all the other fairies in this tier, and also has literally no usage here

Registeel --> C-: Absolutely should have been ranked in the last update imho, it's been very serviceable on some stall teams due to its fantastic mixed defensive stats that the other fat Steel-types lack.

addressing toxicity

I absolutely agree that it's a common occurrence in this thread (literally the last several posts made while I wrote this) and I've absolutely seen worse instances of this, especially back in gen 6 when people like Limitless or Kitten Milk hosted the thread. However what I'd also like to mention is the clear distinction between a healthy community discussion and taking a discussion too far. One thing that drives a ton of people, contributors or not, out of this thread is when they see half a page of mostly unnecessary discussion on lower ranked 'mons like Arcanine, Mega Abomasnow, Yanmega, and Haxorus when most of us know damn well that discussion on those should have ended PROBABLY after the fifth post, which quite honestly isn't an exaggeration half the time based on what's been said lately. If you or anyone else can successfully utilize something that seems underrated in this meta, that's great, keep doing what you're doing; if you wanna bring it up in the thread for discussion, that's great too. However, if people are disagreeing with you, at least have the fucking awareness to understand that they have reasons (good or bad) to disagree with you. I can guarantee you that it takes at most two posts to get your point across and perhaps acknowledge or disagree with opposing arguments against your nominations, and if someone else summed up your thoughts, then I know damn well that it's worth saving the stress and not writing another post on the same subject.

Is this thread important in gauging which 'mons shape this meta more than others? Absolutely. Do people need to take this thread so fucking seriously that it turns this thread into a fucking shitstorm? Absolutely not. I don't care if y'all are friends or hate each other and I especially don't care if you're badged or not, but take a step back, swallow a chill pill, and stop trying to wave your dick in the air like you're the one who's running this place.

 

[Hilomilo]

First off, you clearly don't know your calcs. Mega Absol can run mixed sets, is initially stronger than Honchkrow and can utilize Swords Dance but in no way "has" to click swords dance, has way better coverage moves, and has a way better ability in Magic Bounce. Swords Dance is not even that risky of a play since it gets some free turns due to things being scared of sucker punch, not to mention that the best Mega Absol set doesn't even run Swords Dance. However, Honchkrow is not a bad Pokemon either and I don't think you've seriously used it.

Secondly, what an asshole. Why did you need to just attack faded love and not even have the balls to tag him on it. It was pointless, didn't contribute to your argument in the least, and just made you look bad. You talk about him (and I, for that matter) and how we apparently just "disagree with you for the sake of disagreement" but haven't even considered the fact that maybe your arguments are just bad in the first place and warrant disagreement. You've gotten personal, your arguments are weak and I thought I would stay out of this dumb discussion about shitty D rank Pokemon that nobody even cares about but you're now attacking people for no reason by saying "shoutout to faded love to losing an as pokemon" like you're some great UU player yourself. You're not.

You're showing your ignorance by using bad arguments and terrible formatting (seriously, what is this bolding whole paragraphs thinking it makes your argument more serious, lol), but now you're calling out users who disagree with you. Get your arrogant head out of your ass and stop attacking people unprovoked.

/rant

Scrafty is ass but shout out to faded love for losing to a scrafty I’ll link replay when I find it.

Posts like both of these are absolutely ridiculous and are exact proof as to why people have become so discouraged to contribute to this thread. There is absolutely no excuse for the hostility in your counterarguments, and for you two particularly this level of hostility and condescension has been present in posts long before these recent ones. If you wish to argue against another person's opinion, it is not nearly as hard as you two and some other people in this thread make it seem to respectfully disagree without cheaply throwing blows or putting another person's meta knowledge into question so as not to refrain from stroking your ego and suggesting that you have superior experience. When you see a nomination that you disagree with, present your argument respectfully, which is not how the posts I've responded to are good examples of having done. At the end of the day, there is absolutely no reason for this hostility in a thread where contributions from anyone and everyone are encouraged. All you're doing is negatively contributing to discussion that has noticeably struggled to stay positive in the first place and scaring people from voicing their opinions in fear of being attacked for doing so.

Now, as far as concerns expressed by users such as Clefable go, I think it is important to understand that the community largely contributes to the decisions the ranking council make that end up in our updates. Every single reasonable and well constructed nomination made in this thread is discussed by the ranking council, which consists of members of the UU community themselves. The reasons the people on the ranking council are on it in the first place is because they have proven through contributions made across the subforum and above average playing capabilities that they are trustworthy for determining rank. There are definitely people that are currently subject to join the council as a result of contributions they have made to the thread, but overall it is important to know that the basis of the ranking council isn't to reinforce some Smogon elitist clique that looks to abuse power through ignoring community opinions and suggesting their superiority whenever given the opportunity. I can assure you if that was the case, I myself wouldn't even be in charge of managing this thread, and players without necessarily proven tournament prowess such as A Cake Wearing A Hat and Nuked (and myself) wouldn't have access to the Discord room where the ranking council's discussions take place. People that are positively contributing to this thread with well backed up arguments are being looked at by myself and considered for placement in the ranking council, so by all means don't think that everything posted here is ignored in favor of pushing an elitist agenda and only putting through what the top players want to see put through. We're doing our best to ensure that the opposite happens.

I'm going to work to more consistently get updates out every two weeks and on Sundays, though this next one could be anytime this week depending on the result of the suspect test voting. In the meantime, continue discussion, but keep it civil, respectful, and kind. I cannot believe I have had to stress this so many times in the two months this thread has been out, so please don't make me do it again (also don't think that your negativity hasn't gone unnoticed if you weren't publicly called out in this post, there are way more than two people contributing to the problem).

 

[Miraklez]

Empoleon --> B: Fully disagree with this assessment, offensive shuca empoleon with scald/icebeam/grass knot/defog has never been as good as now. It shuts down every rocker bar nidoqueen and cobalion, and nidoqueen usage has reached its lowest point yet. The breloom argument is frankly not that relevant since loom can not even switchin. It always fears scald, and if it toxic orb or lum ice beam is a clean ohko.

252+ SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 290-342 (111.1 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another good set is the well know spdef set. It still does all the same things it did before. Switching into mpidgey and walling non Z-gigavolt variants of latias. It is also a complete pain to switchin to and kill due to anything that can do so not wanting to be hit by either scald or ice beam.

Celebi --> B+ : Well while i'm here it's time for my own nom I guess. And it's celebi to B+. Recently this mon has been getting much better. One of the reasons is the NP groundium-z set which lures alomuk and kills it. Being able to check loom and switching into spore is huge. Baiting alomuk is also huge because that means that something else on your team can do work. Being an BD azu check is huge because that mon is broken. Being able to lure scizors with a +2 hp fire is huge. These are all great reasons for celebi to have gotten better.

+2 252 SpA Celebi Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 356-420 (101.4 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Celebi Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 452-532 (131.7 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But this isnt the only great celebi set. Recently I found that spdef celebi has turned into one of the greatest bulky pivots available to us.

Celegoat

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 76 SpA / 72 SpD / 108 Spe
Calm Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic/Hidden power fire
- U-turn
- Recover

This set allows you to come in on pretty much any special attack bar hydreigon dark pulse and volcanion fire blast and pivot around said mon. This set counters any breloom set bar fury cutter which is simply not a thing. 76 spa investment ensures that you ohko bandazu with leaf storm. Psychic is also a clean ohko on breloom. You switchin with ease to amoonguss, a mon that has annoyed many a teams in the past with spore but no longer. You can bait in pursuit trappers like krook or muk, uturn on them and take complete advantage of them with a mon like heracross or terrakion, netting you a ko on something. This mon is a godsend to bulky offense and that's why this mon in my opinion deserves to be just a little bit higher.

Relevant Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Celebi: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
76 SpA Celebi Leaf Storm vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 366-432 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
76 SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 314-372 (120.3 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 129-152 (31.9 - 37.6%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Breloom Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Breloom Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 49-58 (12.1 - 14.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 72+ SpD Celebi: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Jade]

I'm not completely fixed on Celebi yet. It is one of the best mons in B, but idt it's the same level as mons such as Kyurem and Moltres just yet. However, I can find flaws in some of your reasoning:

You state that NP Groundonium Z "lures Alolan Muk" but 99% of NP Celebis are this set, meaning it isn't hard for Alolan Muk to hard switch into something else to bait the Z-EP. Normal EP may kill after two rocks, but if it hasn't taken that amount of chip, now you've gotten a Celebi against an Alolan Muk that it can't KO and that can OHKO it with Knock/Gunk Shot. Poison Jab doesn't OHKO (although it can after Poison). This forces Pursuit mindgames, which are rather unreliable.

HP Fire on NP Celebi sounds useless. Z-EP already OHKOs offensive Scizor and only needs rocks to OHKO defensive Sciz (which isn't that good atm imo). Also, the cost is not worth it. You either give up recovery in Giga Drain (which also allows you to beat Blissey), or give up a STAB move in Psychic (which, admittedly, doesn't seem that bad, but I'd still rather run it over HP Fire).

I admit it is a good BD Azu check, but that's hardly a reason for it to rise. You can argue that for any mon that resists Water and can OHKO in return. I've hardly even seen BD anymore. Speaking of, if it's banded Azu, it can smack you with a Play Rough or Knock Off, which hurts Celebi's ability to sweep late-game and makes it much, much easier to revenge.

As for your specially defensive set, I have not tested yet. However, it seems outclassed by NP generally. It is also a worse Azu check than NP imo because you just straight up die to Knock Off, where at least NP can take a Play Rough or the previously mentioned Knock Off. You say it can switch freely into Amoonguss, but Poisonium Z has become more common lately, making it an unreliable check imo. This is just a wording nitpick, but you make it sound like Terrakion takes advantage of Krookodile, which is very risky since most Krooks are generally scarf. Unless you are running scarf Terrakion, which isn't that great imo.

All and all, I disagree with Celebi rising. Feel free to reply if you think i'm wrong.

 

[justdrew]

Posts like both of these are absolutely ridiculous and are exact proof as to why people have become so discouraged to contribute to this thread. There is absolutely no excuse for the hostility in your counterarguments, and for you two particularly this level of hostility and condescension has been present in posts long before these recent ones. If you wish to argue against another person's opinion, it is not nearly as hard as you two and some other people in this thread make it seem to respectfully disagree without cheaply throwing blows or putting another person's meta knowledge into question so as not to refrain from stroking your ego and suggesting that you have superior experience. When you see a nomination that you disagree with, present your argument respectfully, which is not how the posts I've responded to are good examples of having done. At the end of the day, there is absolutely no reason for this hostility in a thread where contributions from anyone and everyone are encouraged. All you're doing is negatively contributing to discussion that has noticeably struggled to stay positive in the first place and scaring people from voicing their opinions in fear of being attacked for doing so.

Now, as far as concerns expressed by users such as Clefable go, I think it is important to understand that the community largely contributes to the decisions the ranking council make that end up in our updates. Every single reasonable and well constructed nomination made in this thread is discussed by the ranking council, which consists of members of the UU community themselves. The reasons the people on the ranking council are on it in the first place is because they have proven through contributions made across the subforum and above average playing capabilities that they are trustworthy for determining rank. There are definitely people that are currently subject to join the council as a result of contributions they have made to the thread, but overall it is important to know that the basis of the ranking council isn't to reinforce some Smogon elitist clique that looks to abuse power through ignoring community opinions and suggesting their superiority whenever given the opportunity. I can assure you if that was the case, I myself wouldn't even be in charge of managing this thread, and players without necessarily proven tournament prowess such as A Cake Wearing A Hat and Nuked (and myself) wouldn't have access to the Discord room where the ranking council's discussions take place. People that are positively contributing to this thread with well backed up arguments are being looked at by myself and considered for placement in the ranking council, so by all means don't think that everything posted here is ignored in favor of pushing an elitist agenda and only putting through what the top players want to see put through. We're doing our best to ensure that the opposite happens.

I'm going to work to more consistently get updates out every two weeks and on Sundays, though this next one could be anytime this week depending on the result of the suspect test voting. In the meantime, continue discussion, but keep it civil, respectful, and kind. I cannot believe I have had to stress this so many times in the two months this thread has been out, so please don't make me do it again (also don't think that your negativity hasn't gone unnoticed if you weren't publicly called out in this post, there are way more than two people contributing to the problem).

I’d like to sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for most of the recent toxicity in this thread. I don’t consider myself a toxic person and try not be, but some of my recent contributions haven’t been respectful. In the future I will make all my contributions polite and again I am very sorry. I’d also like to apologize to faded love, I have nothing against you, the scrappie was meant as a joke but I see how it is in poor taste. DurzaOffTopic, I also do not hate you in the slightest, if I was arrogant or rude to you in any way I apologize and had no intention of offending you. In response to dingbat’s post, if we’re not allowed to talk about Pokémon on vr, regardless of how low they are or even if they are unranked, what’s the point? My post on mega aboma was simply to disagree with it dropping, I feel that as a member of this community I am allowed to disagree with drops. My discussion of Arcanine did massively derail this chat and I apologize for that. Anyways, this thread is probably one of the most important threads in any tier and should be treated with respect. As I have contributed to that disrespect, I will work in the future to cultivate a more positive and friendly community. Thanks!

 

[Miraklez]

So I was recently informed that hp fire is redundant coverage on celebi since +2 Z-ep already gets the ko you are looking for. I will fully admit my mistake here.

Having said that I disagree with the statement that if the alomuk user scouts for Z-ep celebi is forced into a 50/50. After all its job in this case is breaking alo-muk so that something else on your team can take advantage of this, for example latias. If you look at all the damage muk was forced to take here, 2 rocks switchins + a +2 earth power. Alo-muk is now left at around 20% hp give or take. Now it can no longer succesfully check a threat you have in the back and the alo-muk user will most likely sack the alo-muk as it can no longer do its job. In my opinion celebi has in this case done what it was supposed to do.

Being a good BD azu check is in my opinion a great benefit to using celebi. While it in itself is not a good reason for it to rise to B+ it combined with the other benefits celebi can bring to your team are enough see it rise to B+. And while you are correct in saying its not the greatest azu switchin in the world, I never claimed that it was. It can take 1 hit from bandazu if it is necessary on a rainy day and force it out or else take damage which azu doesnt really want to be taking. But its really only supposed to come in after and do its shenanigans then.

As for whether or not NP celebi strictly outclasses spdef celebi I think this is highly dependent on your team. On maybe a straight up offense team this might indeed be the case, but on more bulky offensive teams and balance I think spdef celebi can give NP celebi a run for its money due to how well it functions as a bulky pivot. And yes spdef celebi can not switchin to bandazu on a knock but it can revenge it and grab you momentum with uturn which is always nice for bulky offense.

Last but not least yes if the krookodile is scarf then terrakion is obviously not coming in. I could have worded that much better but typing a lot of words fatigues my mind so mistakes like that can happen.

 

[Drawler]

I agree that Celebi has gotten much better recently but it isn't simply because its a very good check to Breloom and Azumarill; it's because it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the meta's typical stall and balance teams.

Celebi Groundium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
- Earth Power

This is the standard NP set but its very good rn. Stall teams usually cover their weakness to boosting grass attackers by adding one or two of Crobat, Amoonguss, or Bulky Scizor to their teams. This works fine against Breloom or Serpirior but is wholly inadequate for dealing with Celebi, who can flatten all three with STAB Psychic or +2 Tectonic Rage. Celebi's great bulk and natural cure lets you easily set up multiple times a match, and shrug off status that would cripple other stall breakers for the rest of the game. His bulk, indifference to status, and ability to check Breloom, Azumarill, bulky waters and Gliscor without U-Turn also makes him useful against more offensive teams as well, unlike stallbreakers such as Haxorus.

I would support a rise to B+, as Celebi is easily more useful and versatile than Mega-Blastoise or Crawdaunt, which is who he sits around now (ditto for Chandelure too).