Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

[Martin]

Hi, I'm reading Kartana's analysis and the current spread for Scarf is just max/max; I think that 208 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe is a better spread on the set because it means that a healthy Kartana can't be messed around by a transformed Ash Greninja, which is important considering that one of the big things Scarf Kartana has going for it over SD Kartana is the ability to not be total bait for Gren/Ash Gren; the spread takes Water Shuriken after SR+1 Spike (or 3 SR switch-ins), which isn't exactly an uncommon amount of damage for Kart to take. AFAIK there aren't any KOs lost by running this (please correct me if I'm wrong), but if there are then the spread should still be changed to 240 Atk / 16 SpD / 252 Spe to take the same hit after 1 spike (2 SRs).

 

[Altervisi]

Hi! In the Team Options for Shift Gear Magearna it says:
"Psychic-types such as Hoopa-U, Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, and Latios make great teammates for their ability to pressure Steel-types"
However the analysis later goes on to say:
"Fightinium Z Magearna is a great teammate to remove Steel-types for the aforementioned Psychic-types".

It's a little confusing because it kind of states that Psychics can be used as an answer to Steel-types, yet also need Steel-types removed.

 

[wadusher]

So I've been tinkering with Hawlucha spreads to find one that outruns Jolly Sand Rush Excadrill without sacrificing any of its current benchmarks. I started with HP, where I found that 8 of its current HP EVs appear to be leftover from when its speed tier was decided, and don't really help with the Clefable matchup, since the max roll for Moonblast is 3 points less than 152/8 lucha's max HP. I then moved those and 20 attack to speed, and got a spread of 144 HP / 232 Atk / 8 SpD / 124 Spe. I found that even if some obscure guaranteed OHKO/2HKO turned into a roll, it would be a 98% roll, which doesn't change much, so Hawlucha can definitely spare those attack EVs. Would it be alright if this became the standard spread?

 

[GMars]

So I've been tinkering with Hawlucha spreads to find one that outruns Jolly Sand Rush Excadrill without sacrificing any of its current benchmarks. I started with HP, where I found that 8 of its current HP EVs appear to be leftover from when its speed tier was decided, and don't really help with the Clefable matchup, since the max roll for Moonblast is 3 points less than 152/8 lucha's max HP. I then moved those and 20 attack to speed, and got a spread of 144 HP / 232 Atk / 8 SpD / 124 Spe. I found that even if some obscure guaranteed OHKO/2HKO turned into a roll, it would be a 98% roll, which doesn't change much, so Hawlucha can definitely spare those attack EVs. Would it be alright if this became the standard spread?

I appreciate the tinkering! The concern I have is that hawlucha often operates late-game, when the opposing team has been weakened and chipped. This chip damage wouldn’t show up when scanning for OHKOs and 2HKOs from full, and it’s crucial for Hawlucha to have as high of a probability to secure a KO on its target as possible, so I’d prefer the dex still recommend max attack rather than outspeeding a very niche option like jolly sand rush drill. However, I’ll talk to qc about possibly adding that spread to other options.

Edit: After talking with qc, we’re going to update the main spread to outspeed jolly drill but don’t feel losing attack is worth keeping the bulk benchmarks. We’ll update this tonight, thanks for pointing it out!

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Hi! In the Team Options for Shift Gear Magearna it says:
"Psychic-types such as Hoopa-U, Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, and Latios make great teammates for their ability to pressure Steel-types"
However the analysis later goes on to say:
"Fightinium Z Magearna is a great teammate to remove Steel-types for the aforementioned Psychic-types".

It's a little confusing because it kind of states that Psychics can be used as an answer to Steel-types, yet also need Steel-types removed.

The idea is that the Psychic-types overload Magearna’s checks, not that they outright eleminate them.

 

[power]

I appreciate the tinkering! The concern I have is that hawlucha often operates late-game, when the opposing team has been weakened and chipped. This chip damage wouldn’t show up when scanning for OHKOs and 2HKOs from full, and it’s crucial for Hawlucha to have as high of a probability to secure a KO on its target as possible, so I’d prefer the dex still recommend max attack rather than outspeeding a very niche option like jolly sand rush drill. However, I’ll talk to qc about possibly adding that spread to other options.

Edit: After talking with qc, we’re going to update the main spread to outspeed jolly drill but don’t feel losing attack is worth keeping the bulk benchmarks. We’ll update this tonight, thanks for pointing it out!

if you want to outspeed jolly drill and retain the bulk benchmarks, just use 96 HP / 252 Atk / 36 SpD / 124 Spe (It also still lives acro from opposing lucha, as well as clef moonblast

 

[lydian]

Hey people, I just want to leave my input on the Hawlucha spread discussion. Here's the spread I've come up with and I think it fits all three requisites:

EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 36 SpD / 124 Spe​

• 96 HPs EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from Defensive's Lando EQ after rocks, (considering Hawlucha Roosts obviously)
• 36 SpDef EVs allow it to tank a Moonblast from Clefable (without Stealth Rock though, as getting to that benchmark compromises Attack EVs)
• 124 Spe EVs allow it to outrun Jolly Excadrill in Sand.
• So add all the above up and guess how many EVs you have left? Exactly 252 Attack EVs.

EDIT: Shedinja'd again I swear I came up with that spread on my own though lol
EDIT 2: We're so in sync bro! sedertz

 

[matthewc20090]

i think scarf/band victini deserves an analysis since both had good tour success in spl and finch also talked about it in the last vr update

 

[GMars]

if you want to outspeed jolly drill and retain the bulk benchmarks, just use 96 HP / 252 Atk / 36 SpD / 124 Spe (It also still lives acro from opposing lucha, as well as clef moonblast

Hey people, I just want to leave my input on the Hawlucha spread discussion. Here's the spread I've come up with and I think it fits all three requisites:

EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 36 SpD / 124 Spe​

• 96 HPs EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from Defensive's Lando EQ after rocks, (considering Hawlucha Roosts obviously)
• 36 SpDef EVs allow it to tank a Moonblast from Clefable (without Stealth Rock though, as getting to that benchmark compromises Attack EVs)
• 124 Spe EVs allow it to outrun Jolly Excadrill in Sand.
• So add all the above up and guess how many EVs you have left? Exactly 252 Attack EVs.

EDIT: Shedinja'd again I swear I came up with that spread on my own though lol
EDIT 2: We're so in sync bro! sedertz

Thanks for the input guys, I've submitted the spread change to cms.

 

[Altervisi]

The idea is that the Psychic-types overload Magearna’s checks, not that they outright eleminate them.

Ah, still I don't have a problem with the information, I just think it could be worded better.

Also in the intro for Celesteela it finishes talking about Electrium Z Latios, which as far as I am aware is totally non-existant.

 

[matthewc20090]

is specs pelipper still its best set? damp rock has way more usage than specs and supports a lot better. idk tho havent used either in a while

 

[Altervisi]

Tapu Lele Choice Scarf Team options: "Tapu Lele will be cleaning up and revenge killing, so teammates that can weaken Psychic- and Steel-resistant or immune Pokemon make it much easier for Tapu Lele to spam Psychic and Moonblast"

I assume this is meant to be "Fairy-resistant" and it got mixed up with saying "weaken Steel-types".

 

[GMars]

Tapu Lele Choice Scarf Team options: "Tapu Lele will be cleaning up and revenge killing, so teammates that can weaken Psychic- and Steel-resistant or immune Pokemon make it much easier for Tapu Lele to spam Psychic and Moonblast"

I assume this is meant to be "Fairy-resistant" and it got mixed up with saying "weaken Steel-types".

Submitted this to the CMS, thanks for catching it!

 

[OldAmberPlays]

I was looking at the Mega Venusaur analysis, and one thing caught my attention. Considering that Earthquake is used mainly to check Heatran and Magearna, isn't Stomping Tantrum better than it? Two Earthquakes are weaker than two Stomping Tantrums (1 affected by it secundary effect and another with only 75 BP), so the first move fails to OHKO Heatran and has a small chance to 2HKO Shift Gear Magearna after Stealth Rock, unlike Stomping.
----------
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 272-324 (70.4 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Stomping Tantrum (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 408-484 (105.6 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (you only need to use Sludge Bomb on the switch, witch is a stample on the Venusaur's analysis)
----------
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 128-152 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Stomping Tantrum (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 192-226 (63.7 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO plus
0 Atk Venusaur-Mega Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO

First min roll + second min roll = 95,5%. Plus SR damage and it's gone. Again, just need the Sludge Bomb on the switch.

 

[Martin]

Hi, I'm reading Kartana's analysis and the current spread for Scarf is just max/max; I think that 208 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe is a better spread on the set because it means that a healthy Kartana can't be messed around by a transformed Ash Greninja, which is important considering that one of the big things Scarf Kartana has going for it over SD Kartana is the ability to not be total bait for Gren/Ash Gren; the spread takes Water Shuriken after SR+1 Spike (or 3 SR switch-ins), which isn't exactly an uncommon amount of damage for Kart to take. AFAIK there aren't any KOs lost by running this (please correct me if I'm wrong), but if there are then the spread should still be changed to 240 Atk / 16 SpD / 252 Spe to take the same hit after 1 spike (2 SRs).

Quoting this post because I still stand by my statement that 208 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly is the best Scarf Kart spread

 

[Leo]

Quoting this post because I still stand by my statement that 208 Atk / 48 SpD / 252 Spe Jolly is the best Scarf Kart spread

I personally dont think the drop in attack is worth hitting a relatively specific benchmark despite it coming up every now and then. 44 EVs may not seem like a big deal but it's still hard to justify losing them just to come out on top in that one scenario where the SpD matters, specially in ana analysis

 

[Martin]

I personally dont think the drop in attack is worth hitting a relatively specific benchmark despite it coming up every now and then. 44 EVs may not seem like a big deal but it's still hard to justify losing them just to come out on top in that one scenario where the SpD matters, specially in ana analysis

this is why i mentioned 240 Atk / 16 SpD / 252 Spe in the post too btw, in case that was the view of QC

 

[stuuful12]

Speaking of adding minor details to analysis's,
Metronome probably deserves a mention in the other options section of Tapu Lele and Mamoswine, as they have picked up in popularity, and now are fairly used in the sets of Mamoswine and Tapu Lele.

 

[Mellow]

"Priority users like Zygarde, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Scizor should be removed before sweeping is attempted due to Mega Alakazam's frailty; Choice Scarf users like Landorus-T, Greninja, and Keldeo cshould be scouted out and removed as well for similar reasons." In Mega Alakazam's Analysis.

 

[Lotus]

A little bit about SM OU Mega Scizor analysis.

I know I can just submit error as a badgeholder, but here is the reason why I am posting in this thread:

248 HP / 64 Atk / 124 Def / 16 SpD / 56 Spe is the current spread displayed in the set. And the Set Details says: "60 Speed EVs are needed so Mega Scizor can U-turn on Assault Vest Magnezone". I have more than couple problems with this.

First off, I am not sure if Assault Vest Magnezone is even a thing. It doesn't even have a set in the dex site and threats it is supposed to "check" can play around it easily - Tapu Koko just u-turns or volt switches, Tapu Lele can Focus Blast or just wear it down fast with specs psychic, and even Ferrothorn just trolls it with leech seed and protect. If AV zone is relevant enough, forget what I said but 56 Spe vs 60 Spe should still be fixed.

OU isn't my best tier so I thought this was a better place to ask this.

 

[Mellow]

A little bit about SM OU Mega Scizor analysis.

I know I can just submit error as a badgeholder, but here is the reason why I am posting in this thread:

248 HP / 64 Atk / 124 Def / 16 SpD / 56 Spe is the current spread displayed in the set. And the Set Details says: "60 Speed EVs are needed so Mega Scizor can U-turn on Assault Vest Magnezone". I have more than couple problems with this.

First off, I am not sure if Assault Vest Magnezone is even a thing. It doesn't even have a set in the dex site and threats it is supposed to "check" can play around it easily - Tapu Koko just u-turns or volt switches, Tapu Lele can Focus Blast or just wear it down fast with specs psychic, and even Ferrothorn just trolls it with leech seed and protect. If AV zone is relevant enough, forget what I said but 56 Spe vs 60 Spe should still be fixed.

OU isn't my best tier so I thought this was a better place to ask this.

it isnt relevant anymore but 60 speed investment still creeps a number of other pokemon, so the investment should stay the same but the reasoning should change.

 

[Counting Sheep]

it isnt relevant anymore but 60 speed investment still creeps a number of other pokemon, so the investment should stay the same but the reasoning should change.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure analysis aren't meant to include that kind of speed creep, because it will just cause problems with the other analysis constantly trying to one up the other set.

 

[Mellow]

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure analysis aren't meant to include that kind of speed creep, because it will just cause problems with the other analysis constantly trying to one up the other set.

it's speedcreeping defensive mons though so it's not like they tend to run speed investment that much, it outspeeds 16 speed mega venu

 

[Leo]

thats still speed creep

 

[matthewc20090]

on fini's page i think knock off should be in oo cause knock is a top 3 move and its nice to remove bulu's av, steela's lefties and magnezone's scarf. its at least better than scald