That's massively different my man. I'm pointing out how dragon/ grass isn't an inherently good defensive typing, and it being weak to dragon is just a piece of why I don't think it is worthy of OU. This meta is full of dragons every, and being a slow dragon type defensively is right away a negative if you can't outspeed them. A pokemon weak to dragon could def still be OU if it has other great traits, but Hydrapple Grass typing holds it back in that department and its speeds mean it will never win the 1v1 against another dragon type. Pult is great because it outspeeds most of the metagame meaning it being weak to the dragon isn't a problem since you will KO the opponent first, Pult and Hydrapple aren't comparable.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter ausma
- Start date
--> A- : This is my general "hot take" but Corviknight defensive typing still feels great in this metagame. It is one of the few mons that handle the combinations of 
, 
, and 
stabs move and can still handle key threats like 
(lacking encore) and 
. Its typing is still much appreciated on balance and is the glue to handle many key threats in this meta. I do recognize its weaknesses being walled by many common walls such as 
, 
, 
, and more but no other Pokemon can do what it can with its longevity, and the problem of it being walled is fixed by pivoting with u-turn, which is the main reason I nominate it over Skarmory.
--> A+: I've loved this pokemon and not even for what it's known for the most, offensive calm mind. I've been using a more bulky set on balances with either boot or AV and being able to check threats like 
, 
, and 
all in one slot. It's great role compression with pivoting and encore for disruption is busted as per usual, and overall, Primarina is just so solid right now with its typing being great in a metagame with dragons everywhere and holds many balance and HO teams together. --> S-: I don't think this mon is any worse honestly, spinning still fells great in this metagame, but with meta adapting, spinning doesn't feel as necessary as. Boots spam teams have been on the rise and continute to be great while offensive teams opt of out of spinning at all or use faster threats like Cinderace instead for hazard control instead. Great Tusk will always have a place and be deserving of S tier just from how much spin opens up breakers and other items like rocky helmet on Alomomola instead of boots, but people are adapting and spin isn't always needed now.
Last edited:
That's actually a great point, however thanks to my favorite matchup flip, Tera Steel, it can take Dragon, Ice, and Fairy attacks way better and get rid of the Grass/Dragon typing. Burning Tera isn't recommended but Hydrapple being a Steel type can be a game changer against certain offenses like Tera Steeling on Specs Kyurem's Ice Beam and killing it with Fickle Beam or Tera Steeling to resist a chipped Roaring Moon's Acro and also killing it with Fickle Beam. From what I've seen, Hydrapple is by no means an easy mon to use, it def requires solid team support and complete knowledge of all its potentially unfavorable matchups, which is probs why it doesn't see much usage.
I don't really know about hydrapple or sciz, although A-seems quite high for both of them, but as much as I love gking there's no way it fits in S. It is an amazing glue mon, and I think top of A+/bottom of S- is probably its most accurate placement, but it feels like as much as it finds its way onto teams its also suffers from major 4mss; you want psyshock+toxic for volc, fsight for breaking, sludge bomb for fairies, flamethrower for steels, ice beam for scor, grass knot for garg, twave for offense, slack off for recovery, etc. Gking is a fantastic mon and its great glue, but it often feels moreso necessitated on teams rather then on teams because of its own merits. If Kyurem and volcarona weren't in the meta, Gking would probably see less play. On the other hand, stuff like Tusk and Kingambit aren't slotted on because of other mons, they're slotted on teams because of their own merits. Gking is great and very splashable, but really I think S- is the most reflective of its placement; S is too high.from B --> A-
I've already sung my praises for this mon in metagame discussion, but I refuse to believe that Hydrapple should be ranked lower than IronFraudBoulder. I'll just give a quick recap of what I said previously: Hydrapple is a physically defensive Regen wall who is able to take on top metagame threats like Waterpon, Tusk, Rilla, Gouging, Garg, and maybe Kingambit if you really position yourself correctly. Physdef has been the best set by far, pairing extremely well with Glowking on balance to form a nice Regen core. Vest is cool on sand as a way to patch up sand's weaknesses to Water and Grass types, and can fit over Amoonguss and Chesnaught in that slot due to it being a better way to take special attacks and it has a stronger offensive presence than both of them. The Sticky Hold set is good on stall, but has no uses outside of that.
This mon has become irreplaceable on balance thanks to Regen, its unique typing making it a Toxic immune and a Psychic who isn't weak to U-turn, access to Future Sight, Chilly Reception to pivot, insane coverage, status moves like Toxic and Thunder Wave, and overall great special bulk. There is 0 reason to not use this on balance it compresses way too much utility in one slot, would actually go as far as to say it's better than Great Tusk rn, who is not mandatory on these teamstyles unlike Glowking. Not much else to say, everyone knows how important Glowking is at this point.
from B --> B+ or A-
I feel like Scizor's flown under the radar, but playing HO made me really appreciate how devastating it can be. SD sets with Life Orb, Boots, or pinch berries like Sitrus or Liechi can wipe weakened teams. Life Orb is able to ohko offensive Gholdengo without any boosts, Boots avoids chip from hazards, Sitrus is able to recover some damage it sustained from Pokemon like Kyurem and Landorus, and Liechi is able to give Scizor an additional +1 Attack boost if it gets critically low, which gives you stronger Bullet Punches. Knock Off is typically the best option to hit Gholdengo, however I've seen Thief used to steal items such as Helmet from Lando and the steel birds and Lefties from Ironpress Zama if it decides to switch in. Overall solid and underrated mon, obviously hates Volcarona dominating rn but I still feel it's deserving of a rise.
Removed Volcarona
Now that I got everyone’s attention. I’d like to make a quick nom.
Imo a Molt rise is long overdue. The Volc ban frees up options like U-Turn allowing Molt to remain relevant in the Balance matchup. Molt’s ability to spread burns and check physical attackers like Gambit and Knock-less Tusk is valuable and more reliable than Volc was at it due to the avian’s higher physical bulk. Its made appearances in a handful of successful builds, including Vert’s Ting/Tinka team. Though it is incredibly vulnerable to Knock, support from Knock absorbers and strong hazard removal can mitigate that weakness.
heyooo, id like to nominate 2(potientially 3) Pokemon due to Volc being banned
B > A- (if not, at least B+)
probably one of the biggest winners of Volc being banned, Scizor was already quite good before but Volc being banned helps it out immensely now. Scizor's excellent typing as well as its signature Bullet Punch makes it extremely good vs offense as it checks many Pokemon from Iron Valiant to Rillaboom as well as being able to check Kyurem and Roaring Moon, among others. Choice Band is great but I personally love Swords Dance sets the most as they're game enders late game especially once its checks are eliminated(ill say this again but shoutout to Sitrus variants of sd scizor as well). It does have issues with GFire, Moltres, and weather as well as not being too good vs Stall, but I think Scizor is one of the biggest winners of Volc being banned and its excellent traits vs most of the offensive metagame lends me to nominate it.
B- > B
I agree with Greninja's Molt rise nom, it can now run U-turn freely without dedicating that slot to running something silly like Brave Bird to deal with Volc now that's its been banned. Molt's good defensive typing also still gives SV a good way at checking Pokemon such as Kingambit, Zamazenta lacking Stone Edge, and Great Tusk as well as Iron Valiant while also spreading burn. Not to mention that due to Volc being banned, this is basically the only good Pokemon with access to Flame Body in OU(apart from Heatran, but this isn't SwSh lmfao).
honorable nom(since this is a mon that also appreciates the volc ban)
potential B > B+
she appreciates the fact that the demonic bug is no longer in the tier to make her cry and to scare her, normally Latias beats Volc without BB but since most Volc ran BB(especially if they just ran Tera Grass with Giga Drain over Tera Blast on the same set) this was kinda irrelevant. Apart from that, she still can be a dangerous sweeper in the right position thanks to her speed and great bulk, sometimes she can also even run Recover and Substitute over Agility if desired(mainly good on webs and non veil teams which she can fit just as fine on such teams), ofc she still struggles with pokemon such as Kingambit and Gholdengo as well as sometimes being a Tera drainer. But Latias's good speed, great natural bulk, and decent damage output as well as being arguably the most viable and dangerous SP sweeper in the metagame lends me to nominate her.
B > A- (if not, at least B+)probably one of the biggest winners of Volc being banned, Scizor was already quite good before but Volc being banned helps it out immensely now. Scizor's excellent typing as well as its signature Bullet Punch makes it extremely good vs offense as it checks many Pokemon from Iron Valiant to Rillaboom as well as being able to check Kyurem and Roaring Moon, among others. Choice Band is great but I personally love Swords Dance sets the most as they're game enders late game especially once its checks are eliminated(ill say this again but shoutout to Sitrus variants of sd scizor as well). It does have issues with GFire, Moltres, and weather as well as not being too good vs Stall, but I think Scizor is one of the biggest winners of Volc being banned and its excellent traits vs most of the offensive metagame lends me to nominate it.
B- > BI agree with Greninja's Molt rise nom, it can now run U-turn freely without dedicating that slot to running something silly like Brave Bird to deal with Volc now that's its been banned. Molt's good defensive typing also still gives SV a good way at checking Pokemon such as Kingambit, Zamazenta lacking Stone Edge, and Great Tusk as well as Iron Valiant while also spreading burn. Not to mention that due to Volc being banned, this is basically the only good Pokemon with access to Flame Body in OU(apart from Heatran, but this isn't SwSh lmfao).
honorable nom(since this is a mon that also appreciates the volc ban)
potential B > B+she appreciates the fact that the demonic bug is no longer in the tier to make her cry and to scare her, normally Latias beats Volc without BB but since most Volc ran BB(especially if they just ran Tera Grass with Giga Drain over Tera Blast on the same set) this was kinda irrelevant. Apart from that, she still can be a dangerous sweeper in the right position thanks to her speed and great bulk, sometimes she can also even run Recover and Substitute over Agility if desired(mainly good on webs and non veil teams which she can fit just as fine on such teams), ofc she still struggles with pokemon such as Kingambit and Gholdengo as well as sometimes being a Tera drainer. But Latias's good speed, great natural bulk, and decent damage output as well as being arguably the most viable and dangerous SP sweeper in the metagame lends me to nominate her.
Alright been wanting to nom this for a while now but was busy with other stuff, and with Volc banned this only gets better.
Unranked --> C+/B- (I think it's better than all the C+ mons but I would get why someone wouldn't want it to be B-)
It honestly came to me as a surprise this mon wasn't ranked on the VR, Tinted Lens STAB First Impression always has a niche imo, coupled with great STAB options that appreciate the ability greatly like Knock Off, U-Turn, Sucker Punch, Leech Life etc. I see some people use Choice Band or Swords Dance, I don't think those are good sets. Boots 4 attacks is the way to go imo.
Looking at the VR rn, down to the B+ rank Lokix revenge kills or threatens out all of Ogerpon-Wellspring, Roaring Moon, Slowking-Galar, Darkrai, Rillaboom, Samurott-Hisui, Weavile, Deoxys-Speed, Meowscarada (Drop this btw), Iron Boulder, Ogerpon-Teal, Ogerpon-Cornerstone after even 1 HP of chip and Serperior, with this list expanding even more with some spikes and rocks chip. And of course, this is only looking until B+ also without factoring tera types into account, which actually opens up revenging options even more, like a Tera'd Iron Valiant. Rocks and Spikes are almost essential for this thing to work, but if provided Lokix can offer incredible utility to a team. Besides the aforementioned mons, First Impression can still threaten out or revenge a chipped Kingambit looking to sweep with Sucker, a chipped Dragapult looking to clean a game up (especially if running Sucker Punch), a chipped Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Primarina, Walking Wake, you get the picture. That aside, it also provides great utility with STAB Knock Off and U-Turn, notably chunking common Knock resists which don't like losing their item like Zamazenta and Great Tusk while threatening out something like Gholdengo. Knock also straight up OHKOs Enamorus after rocks. Lokix's best matchup is vs Offense where it can repeatedly come in and threaten with First Impression. Where Lokix falters is against bulkier builds where its quite mediocre 102 base attack really falls short of picking up KOs, basically being hard walled by Gliscor, Alomomola, Corviknight, Skarmory and to an extent Clefable, hence why I am not ranking it any higher. It also struggles into Iron Valiant on offense, but since Val is often their only switchin to Lokix, burning their Booster is often quite good. Even after First Impression, Lokix threatens faster mons with Sucker Punch so it's not just a sitting duck afterward. It also has options like Axe Kick if the Kingambit matchup is bad, although First Impression alongside chip from Spikes or Helmet Lando is usually enough.
Now, a couple replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2109910816
A couple chokes at first, but Lokix's value is noticeable here with it scaring off Ogerpon at +1 Speed and Darkrai. It also would've been able to revenge Crown after the chip Gholdengo dished out had it not just KO'd it itself.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2109794231
Here, Lokix threatens out a Primarina at decent health with the threat of Tinted Lens Knock and U-turns on a Lando, letting Deo-S come in to revenge. Later in the game it Knocks and U-turns on a Zama which is enough chip for Deo-s to 2HKO with Psycho Boost after Zama Tera's into Fire. Lokix is then able to finish off the remaining Raging Bolt and Primarina.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2109826967
Early game, Lokix forces out a +1 Speed Ogerpon and does 66% to the incoming Volcarona with First Impression, allowing it to be revenged by Ting Lu with ease. Later it revenge kills a Tera Ghost +2 Attack +1 Speed from Booster Shadow Sneak Iron Valiant with First Impression and proceeds to kill a 35% Dragonite with Knock Off and then kill a similarly chipped Dragapult with Sucker Punch event after burn before then U-turning out of Kingambit into Lando-T to finish the game from there.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2106915220
In this game Lokix pivots into a Shadow Ball from Tera Ghost Iron Valiant, which forces it to use Destiny Bond fearing the threat of Sucker Punch or Tera First Impression. This allows me to freely go into my previously forced out because of -1 SpDef Ghold to kill the Valiant. Later Lokix forces out a +2 Iron Boulder with First Impression while the opponent forfeits with both his remaining mons being weak to Lokix.
And yeah that's it thanks for reading plz rank the goat
Unranked --> C+/B- (I think it's better than all the C+ mons but I would get why someone wouldn't want it to be B-)It honestly came to me as a surprise this mon wasn't ranked on the VR, Tinted Lens STAB First Impression always has a niche imo, coupled with great STAB options that appreciate the ability greatly like Knock Off, U-Turn, Sucker Punch, Leech Life etc. I see some people use Choice Band or Swords Dance, I don't think those are good sets. Boots 4 attacks is the way to go imo.
Looking at the VR rn, down to the B+ rank Lokix revenge kills or threatens out all of Ogerpon-Wellspring, Roaring Moon, Slowking-Galar, Darkrai, Rillaboom, Samurott-Hisui, Weavile, Deoxys-Speed, Meowscarada (Drop this btw), Iron Boulder, Ogerpon-Teal, Ogerpon-Cornerstone after even 1 HP of chip and Serperior, with this list expanding even more with some spikes and rocks chip. And of course, this is only looking until B+ also without factoring tera types into account, which actually opens up revenging options even more, like a Tera'd Iron Valiant. Rocks and Spikes are almost essential for this thing to work, but if provided Lokix can offer incredible utility to a team. Besides the aforementioned mons, First Impression can still threaten out or revenge a chipped Kingambit looking to sweep with Sucker, a chipped Dragapult looking to clean a game up (especially if running Sucker Punch), a chipped Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Primarina, Walking Wake, you get the picture. That aside, it also provides great utility with STAB Knock Off and U-Turn, notably chunking common Knock resists which don't like losing their item like Zamazenta and Great Tusk while threatening out something like Gholdengo. Knock also straight up OHKOs Enamorus after rocks. Lokix's best matchup is vs Offense where it can repeatedly come in and threaten with First Impression. Where Lokix falters is against bulkier builds where its quite mediocre 102 base attack really falls short of picking up KOs, basically being hard walled by Gliscor, Alomomola, Corviknight, Skarmory and to an extent Clefable, hence why I am not ranking it any higher. It also struggles into Iron Valiant on offense, but since Val is often their only switchin to Lokix, burning their Booster is often quite good. Even after First Impression, Lokix threatens faster mons with Sucker Punch so it's not just a sitting duck afterward. It also has options like Axe Kick if the Kingambit matchup is bad, although First Impression alongside chip from Spikes or Helmet Lando is usually enough.
Now, a couple replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2109910816
A couple chokes at first, but Lokix's value is noticeable here with it scaring off Ogerpon at +1 Speed and Darkrai. It also would've been able to revenge Crown after the chip Gholdengo dished out had it not just KO'd it itself.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2109794231
Here, Lokix threatens out a Primarina at decent health with the threat of Tinted Lens Knock and U-turns on a Lando, letting Deo-S come in to revenge. Later in the game it Knocks and U-turns on a Zama which is enough chip for Deo-s to 2HKO with Psycho Boost after Zama Tera's into Fire. Lokix is then able to finish off the remaining Raging Bolt and Primarina.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2109826967
Early game, Lokix forces out a +1 Speed Ogerpon and does 66% to the incoming Volcarona with First Impression, allowing it to be revenged by Ting Lu with ease. Later it revenge kills a Tera Ghost +2 Attack +1 Speed from Booster Shadow Sneak Iron Valiant with First Impression and proceeds to kill a 35% Dragonite with Knock Off and then kill a similarly chipped Dragapult with Sucker Punch event after burn before then U-turning out of Kingambit into Lando-T to finish the game from there.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2106915220
In this game Lokix pivots into a Shadow Ball from Tera Ghost Iron Valiant, which forces it to use Destiny Bond fearing the threat of Sucker Punch or Tera First Impression. This allows me to freely go into my previously forced out because of -1 SpDef Ghold to kill the Valiant. Later Lokix forces out a +2 Iron Boulder with First Impression while the opponent forfeits with both his remaining mons being weak to Lokix.
And yeah that's it thanks for reading plz rank the goat
So imma rank some mons since the meta is definetely going to shift quite a bit now that the moth is gone.
-> A/A+
I nominated this before for A+ rank, but now I think it is much deserved. With one of its better checks (volc checked valiant guys) gone, valiant is riding high. It now doesn't have to worry about volc setting up on it or checking special sets, while physical sets don't have to worry about cc proccing burn. This allows it to diversive more, as moonblast + fighting coverage covers most things (besides ghold), so it can experiment more instead of having to worry about hitting volc. For example, fire punch is a great move on sd sets due to it threatening ghold and other steel types in the meta, which volc would wall decently well. It also is one of, if not the single, best speed control options in the game. Getting above valiant's speed tier is a large reason why scarfrai and moon are so good, they can outspeed the most common speed control option. Combine this with the variety of options it has, and valiant to me is an easy A+ rank mon.
-> B/B+
Zapdos can fill a similarish role in spreading status onto physical attackers and loves that grass types are going to be more popular. It also beats two fairy types in primarina and valiant that will most likely rise. Zapdos in general I feel is underrated, with it still being a really great mon that despite some troubles, can put in the work. It hits quite hard but a set I am interested in is tera water blast. You can counter waterpon a lot easier, since power whip makes contact and getting a paralysis is a good trade, while dealing with the pesky ground types that might wall zap such as Sp.Defense Gliscor and clodsire. But even besides that thought, zapdos looks pretty good into the meta with it helping against waterpon, sd valiant, primarina, rillaboom and zama (which will most likely drop stone edge, making it one of the best counters if it does). We can also expand this list to cinderace, dragapult, dragonite, kingambit, meowscarada, roaring moon and hamurott if we include static. This is an impressive list to help against, and I think zapdos deserves to rise.
-> B+/A-
Hardy har har, the heatran guy is nominating for heatran to rise, what an unexpected twist. But for real, Heatran is better than ever as it no longer has to attempt and then fail at checking volc since most ran tera ground to beat it. Heatran is a monster both offensively and defensively, with it straight up denying multiple mons that could overwhelm teams while still putting out offensive pressure. Honestly, lots of mons it destroys best hope to deal with it is to hope that magma storm misses. Nothing in the tier besides gouging likes taking magma storm as the high damage and chip damage cripples most things in the tier. Two sets that I have been loving are AV and tera blast fairy. AV can take basically any special hit even with only max HP investment, even always living an enamorus earth power, which is just insane, and can fire back with a multitude of attacks that can deal super effective damage to most things. Tera blast fairy traps the poison and steel types of the tier and then tera fairys and decimates everything due to its good bulk with not many super effective hits against it and ability to have super effective coverage against a lot of the tier.
But speaking of things it helps against (up to B+ rank), that is:
Kingambit
Gholdengo
Standard gliscor set if its running air balloon
Raging bolt
Glowking
Darkrai
Hatterene
Rillaboom
Weavile
Enamorus (just scout for e-power)
Tera groundless Iron Moth
Skeledirge
Cinderace
Corviknight
Iron Crown
Ogerpon (normal variant)
Serperior
Skarmory
That is an absolute massive list of mons it helps against, and I think its time to wake up sheeple, Heatran is goated. #Goatran
A/A-
Hot take, alolomola ain't an A rank mon, it's a A- rank mon. Firstly, it lets waterpon in for free and has to make big consensions just to not be the freest (that's a word) set up opportunity for it. Since waterpon is a mon you absolutely DO NOT want to give setup to, this is already a big detractor. It also has to be very standard in its moveset as any alterations, while they can be made, reduce its effectivness. It needs wish and scald, but then mainly chooses protect and flip turn into its moveset, but wants mirror coat, acrobatics, whirlpool and chilling water. If it drops protect or flip turn for another move in order to be less passive, then it is giving up on something vital. Lastly, it is passive AF, honestly too passive. Again, lets in waterpon, but many special attackers can switch in on the wish turn and set up, as they are not too threatened by it. Compare that to something like clodsire, who also is passive, who at the very least can get hazards up or toxic something. Now, the massive wishes, ability to soft check a lot of things and scald burns do make it good, but those downsides are big and don't make it an A rank mon.
-> A/A+I nominated this before for A+ rank, but now I think it is much deserved. With one of its better checks (volc checked valiant guys) gone, valiant is riding high. It now doesn't have to worry about volc setting up on it or checking special sets, while physical sets don't have to worry about cc proccing burn. This allows it to diversive more, as moonblast + fighting coverage covers most things (besides ghold), so it can experiment more instead of having to worry about hitting volc. For example, fire punch is a great move on sd sets due to it threatening ghold and other steel types in the meta, which volc would wall decently well. It also is one of, if not the single, best speed control options in the game. Getting above valiant's speed tier is a large reason why scarfrai and moon are so good, they can outspeed the most common speed control option. Combine this with the variety of options it has, and valiant to me is an easy A+ rank mon.
-> B/B+Zapdos can fill a similarish role in spreading status onto physical attackers and loves that grass types are going to be more popular. It also beats two fairy types in primarina and valiant that will most likely rise. Zapdos in general I feel is underrated, with it still being a really great mon that despite some troubles, can put in the work. It hits quite hard but a set I am interested in is tera water blast. You can counter waterpon a lot easier, since power whip makes contact and getting a paralysis is a good trade, while dealing with the pesky ground types that might wall zap such as Sp.Defense Gliscor and clodsire. But even besides that thought, zapdos looks pretty good into the meta with it helping against waterpon, sd valiant, primarina, rillaboom and zama (which will most likely drop stone edge, making it one of the best counters if it does). We can also expand this list to cinderace, dragapult, dragonite, kingambit, meowscarada, roaring moon and hamurott if we include static. This is an impressive list to help against, and I think zapdos deserves to rise.
-> B+/A-Hardy har har, the heatran guy is nominating for heatran to rise, what an unexpected twist. But for real, Heatran is better than ever as it no longer has to attempt and then fail at checking volc since most ran tera ground to beat it. Heatran is a monster both offensively and defensively, with it straight up denying multiple mons that could overwhelm teams while still putting out offensive pressure. Honestly, lots of mons it destroys best hope to deal with it is to hope that magma storm misses. Nothing in the tier besides gouging likes taking magma storm as the high damage and chip damage cripples most things in the tier. Two sets that I have been loving are AV and tera blast fairy. AV can take basically any special hit even with only max HP investment, even always living an enamorus earth power, which is just insane, and can fire back with a multitude of attacks that can deal super effective damage to most things. Tera blast fairy traps the poison and steel types of the tier and then tera fairys and decimates everything due to its good bulk with not many super effective hits against it and ability to have super effective coverage against a lot of the tier.
But speaking of things it helps against (up to B+ rank), that is:
Kingambit
Gholdengo
Standard gliscor set if its running air balloon
Raging bolt
Glowking
Darkrai
Hatterene
Rillaboom
Weavile
Enamorus (just scout for e-power)
Tera groundless Iron Moth
Skeledirge
Cinderace
Corviknight
Iron Crown
Ogerpon (normal variant)
Serperior
Skarmory
That is an absolute massive list of mons it helps against, and I think its time to wake up sheeple, Heatran is goated. #Goatran
A/A-Hot take, alolomola ain't an A rank mon, it's a A- rank mon. Firstly, it lets waterpon in for free and has to make big consensions just to not be the freest (that's a word) set up opportunity for it. Since waterpon is a mon you absolutely DO NOT want to give setup to, this is already a big detractor. It also has to be very standard in its moveset as any alterations, while they can be made, reduce its effectivness. It needs wish and scald, but then mainly chooses protect and flip turn into its moveset, but wants mirror coat, acrobatics, whirlpool and chilling water. If it drops protect or flip turn for another move in order to be less passive, then it is giving up on something vital. Lastly, it is passive AF, honestly too passive. Again, lets in waterpon, but many special attackers can switch in on the wish turn and set up, as they are not too threatened by it. Compare that to something like clodsire, who also is passive, who at the very least can get hazards up or toxic something. Now, the massive wishes, ability to soft check a lot of things and scald burns do make it good, but those downsides are big and don't make it an A rank mon.
I do agree with alo being A- or even B+ at worst. I still think Alo ability to form an annoying regen core with slowking is still very enticing and still has success in this meta, but being stonewalled by ogerpon dam sucks. You are always forced to run a gimmicky move on alo just to deal with ogerpon with people using body slam, icy wind, and even dam tickle. At least other water types actually scare it like Moonblast from prim, draco from wake, or samurott with dark stab. Also, alo passive nature means that threats like moon, gouging, and even tusk it's supposed to aid against often destroy alo quite with enough boost if you don't get a scald burn. I just find myself using corviknight, lando, or gliscor almost all the time when I need a wall/ pivot. They just offer more offensive pressure and can actually do something if a bad match switched in (u turn).So imma rank some mons since the meta is definetely going to shift quite a bit now that the moth is gone.
I nominated this before for A+ rank, but now I think it is much deserved. With one of its better checks (volc checked valiant guys) gone, valiant is riding high. It now doesn't have to worry about volc setting up on it or checking special sets, while physical sets don't have to worry about cc proccing burn. This allows it to diversive more, as moonblast + fighting coverage covers most things (besides ghold), so it can experiment more instead of having to worry about hitting volc. For example, fire punch is a great move on sd sets due to it threatening ghold and other steel types in the meta, which volc would wall decently well. It also is one of, if not the single, best speed control options in the game. Getting above valiant's speed tier is a large reason why scarfrai and moon are so good, they can outspeed the most common speed control option. Combine this with the variety of options it has, and valiant to me is an easy A+ rank mon.
Zapdos can fill a similarish role in spreading status onto physical attackers and loves that grass types are going to be more popular. It also beats two fairy types in primarina and valiant that will most likely rise. Zapdos in general I feel is underrated, with it still being a really great mon that despite some troubles, can put in the work. It hits quite hard but a set I am interested in is tera water blast. You can counter waterpon a lot easier, since power whip makes contact and getting a paralysis is a good trade, while dealing with the pesky ground types that might wall zap such as Sp.Defense Gliscor and clodsire. But even besides that thought, zapdos looks pretty good into the meta with it helping against waterpon, sd valiant, primarina, rillaboom and zama (which will most likely drop stone edge, making it one of the best counters if it does). We can also expand this list to cinderace, dragapult, dragonite, kingambit, meowscarada, roaring moon and hamurott if we include static. This is an impressive list to help against, and I think zapdos deserves to rise.
Hardy har har, the heatran guy is nominating for heatran to rise, what an unexpected twist. But for real, Heatran is better than ever as it no longer has to attempt and then fail at checking volc since most ran tera ground to beat it. Heatran is a monster both offensively and defensively, with it straight up denying multiple mons that could overwhelm teams while still putting out offensive pressure. Honestly, lots of mons it destroys best hope to deal with it is to hope that magma storm misses. Nothing in the tier besides gouging likes taking magma storm as the high damage and chip damage cripples most things in the tier. Two sets that I have been loving are AV and tera blast fairy. AV can take basically any special hit even with only max HP investment, even always living an enamorus earth power, which is just insane, and can fire back with a multitude of attacks that can deal super effective damage to most things. Tera blast fairy traps the poison and steel types of the tier and then tera fairys and decimates everything due to its good bulk with not many super effective hits against it and ability to have super effective coverage against a lot of the tier.
But speaking of things it helps against (up to B+ rank), that is:
Kingambit
Gholdengo
Standard gliscor set if its running air balloon
Raging bolt
Glowking
Darkrai
Hatterene
Rillaboom
Weavile
Enamorus (just scout for e-power)
Tera groundless Iron Moth
Skeledirge
Cinderace
Corviknight
Iron Crown
Ogerpon (normal variant)
Serperior
Skarmory
That is an absolute massive list of mons it helps against, and I think its time to wake up sheeple, Heatran is goated. #Goatran
Hot take, alolomola ain't an A rank mon, it's a A- rank mon. Firstly, it lets waterpon in for free and has to make big consensions just to not be the freest (that's a word) set up opportunity for it. Since waterpon is a mon you absolutely DO NOT want to give setup to, this is already a big detractor. It also has to be very standard in its moveset as any alterations, while they can be made, reduce its effectivness. It needs wish and scald, but then mainly chooses protect and flip turn into its moveset, but wants mirror coat, acrobatics, whirlpool and chilling water. If it drops protect or flip turn for another move in order to be less passive, then it is giving up on something vital. Lastly, it is passive AF, honestly too passive. Again, lets in waterpon, but many special attackers can switch in on the wish turn and set up, as they are not too threatened by it. Compare that to something like clodsire, who also is passive, who at the very least can get hazards up or toxic something. Now, the massive wishes, ability to soft check a lot of things and scald burns do make it good, but those downsides are big and don't make it an A rank mon.
Last edited:
Tickle is used for Gouging Fire, not Ogerpon. With Tickle, Gouging Fire loses the 1v1 and can't ever sweep unless it runs some dumb crap like Clear Amulet (which probably is viable).
Personally I think Mola is pretty busted lmao. Yes, inviting in Waterpon is bad, but passing such huge wishes is nice for so many Pokemon like Tusk, Ursaluna, lower viability mons like Goodra-Hisui, etc. IMO its firmly A-Rank. Also its one of the best mons against sun. A- at minimum imo. That being said, Corv is also pretty good, so it could be raised.
-> B+This mon is really good vs fat. Psuedo hazard immunity + packs strong Dracos to put on immediate pressure vs the likes of Ting-Lu. Its MU vs offensive builds is shakier, but it can use some mons like Tusk and Lando-T as entry points to fire off Dracos. Tera Steel CM Psychic Noise is my personal favorite set. Tera Steel + levitate gives it one of the best defensive profiles in this metagame, it packs good immediate power thanks to Soul Dew, it can prevent recovery attempts from switch-ins like Gholdengo and Corviknight, ensuring damage really sticks, and it can keep itself healthy with Recover. To put it another way, Soul Dew Latios is like Ogerpon-Wellspring with more initial power and a psuedo hazard immunity. The only reason I'm not nomming it higher is because of its MU being poor vs various offensive Pokemon, namely Kingambit, Darkrai, Roaring Moon, and Dragapult. It does have coverage to hit Kingambit hard, but the others are faster and will outspeed it before it has a chance to react, giving them a free turn to setup, which is absolutely something you don't want to see against Pokemon so fast.
I agree with the Iron Valiant nomination for sure given how ubiquitous and impactful it is on HO, but I've used Heatran before and to be honest it always seems to struggle for me. People have made the joke that heatran is good 75% of the time (which is valid) but honestly it feels like it needs taunt to function as a trapper properly, leaving its niche as a steel that can viably set rocks, but then you give up other potential coverage options or protect to get more lefties recovery. This is even with AV usually being hard to fit on mons without recovery due to having to give up both boots or potential recovery in lefties, but then being forced to lose necessary status moves... I'm not sure I see the vision here. Whenever I fit tran onto a team it feels like I messed up tbhSo imma rank some mons since the meta is definetely going to shift quite a bit now that the moth is gone.
I nominated this before for A+ rank, but now I think it is much deserved. With one of its better checks (volc checked valiant guys) gone, valiant is riding high. It now doesn't have to worry about volc setting up on it or checking special sets, while physical sets don't have to worry about cc proccing burn. This allows it to diversive more, as moonblast + fighting coverage covers most things (besides ghold), so it can experiment more instead of having to worry about hitting volc. For example, fire punch is a great move on sd sets due to it threatening ghold and other steel types in the meta, which volc would wall decently well. It also is one of, if not the single, best speed control options in the game. Getting above valiant's speed tier is a large reason why scarfrai and moon are so good, they can outspeed the most common speed control option. Combine this with the variety of options it has, and valiant to me is an easy A+ rank mon.
Zapdos can fill a similarish role in spreading status onto physical attackers and loves that grass types are going to be more popular. It also beats two fairy types in primarina and valiant that will most likely rise. Zapdos in general I feel is underrated, with it still being a really great mon that despite some troubles, can put in the work. It hits quite hard but a set I am interested in is tera water blast. You can counter waterpon a lot easier, since power whip makes contact and getting a paralysis is a good trade, while dealing with the pesky ground types that might wall zap such as Sp.Defense Gliscor and clodsire. But even besides that thought, zapdos looks pretty good into the meta with it helping against waterpon, sd valiant, primarina, rillaboom and zama (which will most likely drop stone edge, making it one of the best counters if it does). We can also expand this list to cinderace, dragapult, dragonite, kingambit, meowscarada, roaring moon and hamurott if we include static. This is an impressive list to help against, and I think zapdos deserves to rise.
Hardy har har, the heatran guy is nominating for heatran to rise, what an unexpected twist. But for real, Heatran is better than ever as it no longer has to attempt and then fail at checking volc since most ran tera ground to beat it. Heatran is a monster both offensively and defensively, with it straight up denying multiple mons that could overwhelm teams while still putting out offensive pressure. Honestly, lots of mons it destroys best hope to deal with it is to hope that magma storm misses. Nothing in the tier besides gouging likes taking magma storm as the high damage and chip damage cripples most things in the tier. Two sets that I have been loving are AV and tera blast fairy. AV can take basically any special hit even with only max HP investment, even always living an enamorus earth power, which is just insane, and can fire back with a multitude of attacks that can deal super effective damage to most things. Tera blast fairy traps the poison and steel types of the tier and then tera fairys and decimates everything due to its good bulk with not many super effective hits against it and ability to have super effective coverage against a lot of the tier.
But speaking of things it helps against (up to B+ rank), that is:
Kingambit
Gholdengo
Standard gliscor set if its running air balloon
Raging bolt
Glowking
Darkrai
Hatterene
Rillaboom
Weavile
Enamorus (just scout for e-power)
Tera groundless Iron Moth
Skeledirge
Cinderace
Corviknight
Iron Crown
Ogerpon (normal variant)
Serperior
Skarmory
That is an absolute massive list of mons it helps against, and I think its time to wake up sheeple, Heatran is goated. #Goatran
Hot take, alolomola ain't an A rank mon, it's a A- rank mon. Firstly, it lets waterpon in for free and has to make big consensions just to not be the freest (that's a word) set up opportunity for it. Since waterpon is a mon you absolutely DO NOT want to give setup to, this is already a big detractor. It also has to be very standard in its moveset as any alterations, while they can be made, reduce its effectivness. It needs wish and scald, but then mainly chooses protect and flip turn into its moveset, but wants mirror coat, acrobatics, whirlpool and chilling water. If it drops protect or flip turn for another move in order to be less passive, then it is giving up on something vital. Lastly, it is passive AF, honestly too passive. Again, lets in waterpon, but many special attackers can switch in on the wish turn and set up, as they are not too threatened by it. Compare that to something like clodsire, who also is passive, who at the very least can get hazards up or toxic something. Now, the massive wishes, ability to soft check a lot of things and scald burns do make it good, but those downsides are big and don't make it an A rank mon.
I think it worth noting that Soul Dew just boosts Latios's two STAB types, as opposed to Ogerpon masks boosting ALL its moves by 1.2x. This can come into play where Coverage is concerned, which will come up decently often because both of Latios's STABs falter into Steel types. Latios has more initial power if its STABs work, but it lacks that same power to hit switch-ins to those STABs compared to Ogerpon-W having a decent hit from Play Rough or the "not just damage"discouragement of Knock Off (Psychic Noise's heal block is more match-up specific for improving things). Calm Mind does give it some way to capitalize on gained turns but it doesn't have the same snowball pressure, especially since Draco runs counter to Boosting Sweeps.
This mon is really good vs fat. Psuedo hazard immunity + packs strong Dracos to put on immediate pressure vs the likes of Ting-Lu. Its MU vs offensive builds is shakier, but it can use some mons like Tusk and Lando-T as entry points to fire off Dracos. Tera Steel CM Psychic Noise is my personal favorite set. Tera Steel + levitate gives it one of the best defensive profiles in this metagame, it packs good immediate power thanks to Soul Dew, it can prevent recovery attempts from switch-ins like Gholdengo and Corviknight, ensuring damage really sticks, and it can keep itself healthy with Recover. To put it another way, Soul Dew Latios is like Ogerpon-Wellspring with more initial power and a psuedo hazard immunity. The only reason I'm not nomming it higher is because of its MU being poor vs various offensive Pokemon, namely Kingambit, Darkrai, Roaring Moon, and Dragapult. It does have coverage to hit Kingambit hard, but the others are faster and will outspeed it before it has a chance to react, giving them a free turn to setup, which is absolutely something you don't want to see against Pokemon so fast.
The Defensive profile behind that output still helps for Balance and fatter teams that lean less on their match-ups than bulk, bringing a decent speed and resistance to at least some Priority like Grassy Glide, but I hung up on the Ogerpon-W comparison because I do think there is a notable gap in initial threat even if the starting power favors Latios. Latios could function for chunking fat mons who have little means to respond to the mentioned Defense, but it's more to wear out links or punch specific holes than Ogerpon or other Breakers like Roaring Moon, Kyurem, or even Zamazenta and Iron Moth which can runaway with the game after said Hole Punch (obviously this reflected by the rating differences).
Something I do think is underexplored is Luster Purge, which can create some defensive pressure if they opponent is relying on blanket/bulky checks to handle things, with the -1 inhibiting their ability to sit on a Special Attacker they might otherwise outlast or survive-to-cripple normally, synergizing pretty decently with Latios's access to Flip Turn for pivoting both on the predicted switch and on hitting a drop for an otherwise safe tank.
- Encore
Tork is one of the most exploitable mons. Tera Fire Gambit, Primarina, Darkrai, Dragapult, GF and so on the list of dangorous mons preying on Tork is just way too big. Substitute user can also snowball out of control and Tork is completely helpless against that. Nintales with encore however, can give you plenty of breathing room to respond, something Sun REALLY needs bc it usually doesn't have any strong defensive backbone. Rocks and Hazard control can be filled by plenty of other members, like Lando, Hatt, Ace, Tusk, Threads, fast taunt mon ect.. Tork isn't even good at those roles, any offensive team can pressure Tork well enough to the point it is forced to burn it or switch out, not to mention when rocks are up, Tork is pressured even more. Tork does have clear smog but you are wasting your sun turns that way and doesnt't work on sub users and steels.
- Healing Wish
Allows you to play more aggressively with your breaker, allowing your team to punch holes without much fear of status or getting chipped. Sure, you have Hatt for that but Hatt is slow as balls and similarly pressured really hard bc sun usually doesn't run any good defensive cores. Not to mention, if Hatt is tasked with blocking hazards, there is a good chance the opponent wants to chip her. Healing Wish can also create momentum for you, but of course you have to judge wisely and ask yourself if you don't need sun anymore.
- Decent Speed
Actually makes a difference when you face stuff like Gambit already at +2 or Primarina setting up subs. Can also burn some mons like D-nite in a pinch if she didn't set up..
Some replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2119919880 (Invaluable in this match.Burned Dragonite, tanked Oger and most importanly healed the para'd Wake which allowed me to win the match. Would have lost if that was Tork.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2119995149 (Encored and forced out Gambit, who otherwise, could have a chance to reverse sweep my team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2061188732-nd3j8fqfawv57fs7u6rusyv8h53ae4apw (Healing wish gave me more safety against nite GF)
Last edited:
^I agree with Ninetales deserving a spot on the list due to Healing Wish + Encore, I have used it personally and is decent enough. However, in no way it's better than Torkoal, who spins, rocks, burns with Lava Plume (don't run WoW on Koal, is unviable trash) and can do decent damage with Body Press. It's also much more durable than Ninetales, a trait very appreciated by all weather setters.
Ninetales is to play enough to where it has a niche as a Sun option. If you’ve played ladder, I’m sure you’ve run into annoying Ninetales teams more than a few times over the last couple of months. Would be fine in C ranks.
I watched and honestly don’t think Torkoal would have lost here either.
You burned the Dragonite the same turn it used Dragon Dance, and the Ogerpon would have done way less. You could have also saved your Hatterene more often with Rapid Spin support.
Additionally you could have done more damage to that Gliscor with Roaring Moon having used Outrage. It looks like a SpD Gliscor so you would have done 68%-80% to Gliscor, leaving Gliscor at a range where it’d easily be KO’d by any fire attack you’d had.
Just so you know
252 Atk Ogerpon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Torkoal: 57-68 (16.6 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Torkoal: 44-52 (12.8 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Alomomola Flip Turn vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Torkoal in Sun: 30-36 (8.7 - 10.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Torkoal at worst would have taken 45.3% damage, which is only slightly more damage than what Ninetales took from 1 Knock Off. While yeah Torkoal would have lost to Gliscor, it does mean it could have stayed in vs that Mola and change that endgame drastically.
0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola in Sun: 105-124 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Alomomola Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Torkoal: 28-34 (8.1 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk burned Alomomola Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Torkoal: 14-17 (4 - 4.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
We’d need Poke-stockfish to analyze that but I’d actually say you’d been in somewhat of a better position with Torkoal with more HP and maybe with better play.
-> A+Darkrai has become perhaps the best special Wallbreaker in the tier and one that is endlessly customizable depending on its fourth move and item. I think most people consider it at least a top 10 if not too 5 pokemon
-> AI debated whether this down or Ting Lu up is more correct but I feel like this is the correct one. Ghold is still very threatening but doesn't necessarily fit on all types of teams, usually folds to HO, and only has some tools vs stall and fat. If really shines vs balance and on balance so it could stay A+ but it seems less good than before
I do agree with you that Ghold should go down to A (and darkrai def should rise to A+), but ghold is still good against stall. This is purely because of the psyshock set, which its mere existance neccesitates a tera dark mon on stall teams (though of course helping against stored power user is a plus too). Seeing ghold in team preview means that the stall team cannot really tera any mons until they have identified the set is absolutely, 100% not the psyshock set, as otherwise they get steamrolled by it.
I debated whether this down or Ting Lu up is more correct but I feel like this is the correct one. Ghold is still very threatening but doesn't necessarily fit on all types of teams, usually folds to HO, and only has some tools vs stall and fat. If really shines vs balance and on balance so it could stay A+ but it seems less good than before
Dam finally people are starting to realize Darkai potency. It threatens the entire meta game with dark pulse, ice beam, focus blast, and sludge/ nasty plot. Balance teams shake in there boots when seeing it knowing there's no true defensive switchin. The few answer to it stabs still can't even win 1v1 if they directly switch in. Tinglu and Clef take:
Darkrai has become perhaps the best special Wallbreaker in the tier and one that is endlessly customizable depending on its fourth move and item. I think most people consider it at least a top 10 if not too 5 pokemon
I debated whether this down or Ting Lu up is more correct but I feel like this is the correct one. Ghold is still very threatening but doesn't necessarily fit on all types of teams, usually folds to HO, and only has some tools vs stall and fat. If really shines vs balance and on balance so it could stay A+ but it seems less good than before
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 437-515 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Clef takes +2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Sludge Bomb (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 205-242 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Its speed is decent also and can outspeed ogerpon, Roaring Moon, and Enam. It also great into stall if you're crazy and run Psyshock somehow. Darkai is just a busted mon. It does have some weakpoints since it can struggle sometimes with what coverage it wants and with HO. It may want sludge bomb for clef and prim but also need focus blast for Tinglu and Kambit, and Darkai typically great speed becomes worse with all the booster speed mon on HO OHKO most likely. These issues though can all be covered easily by team members ofc. I said on day one this thing was great and glad to see people are starting to realize this.
I think A+ is as high as Darkrai goes simply because it can really get worn down hard by hazards and needs to really predict sometimes. If it's stabs were any stronger than they are this mon would be broken. Kinda glad Darkrai is kinda hazard weak and frail because if it had anymore bulk than it already has it would be too much as well. Darkrai and Zama feel like they are just fine enough, even if they are just below the line of being broken if that makes sense.
Should go up the VR though.
Also we should rise Weavile now that Volc is gone, tera ice axels hit like a fucking truck and now it doesn't have to worry about flame body at all now. Also it speed ties Darkrai that aren't scarfed so there is that, and Darkrai absolutely does not wanna take axels so being a physical attsckdr that speed ties darkrai is massive.
Kyurem should probably go up to S- too for how impossible it feels to switch into a lot of the time
Last edited:
Why did you laugh at my post :(? On a serious note i def forgot about hazards, some variations on more slower teams do run boots but life orb/ expert is preferred overall to pick up certain KO