Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Gary]

Gonna post some of my own personal thoughts as well as some brought up by esteemed OU alt maker LL in OU discord.

B+ to A-: Yeah I was one of the few people that was against this dropping on the VR council aside from Finch iirc. Mew usage is dropping quite a lot because people are starting to gravitate to other removers such as Kartana as well as standard Latios/Mega Sciz bullshit. A lot of the current balance running around use like defensive Lando or like Clef as their Medi switch-in both of which lose if they mispredict, the former can be 2HKOed by STAB into Ice Punch usually anyway. It hasn't been used much in snake but the few times it has it's definitely put in some good work. Mega Sab is also a lot less common with stall usage not being nearly as popular with Duggy ban. A lot of the VR council is against Medi but I've never really been sure of why myself I'm just the messenger boy. I just think it's super underrated and it's like really effective if played correctly but no one seems to want to bring it in Snake cause HJK is a bad move ig lol.

B+ to B: Disagree

It's not fast enough to escape being revenged by most scarf users, not strong enough to break shit and is just honestly really not that good. I wouldn't call psyspam too great either. It's not really made very many appearances in tours for a good while now. B+ is too high.

I don't really agree with anything you posted about Mega Zam. First off, Zam has been used recently in Snake. This match for example just proves that if you don't bring like a Steela or AV Gear (which is super easy to wear down) most bulkier just get completely boned by it. It shreds through all the Heatran/Clef/Venu/Pex/Ferro/Lando bullshit running around right now. In this match both players just lose to Mega Zam on team preview, because Skarmory is not a Zam check. Who cares if Scarfers can revenge kill Zam lol, like if anything the fact most teams have to depend on a Scarfer to revenge Zam is actually really good for it. Especially if your team lacks Steela like how are you supposed to really work around it outside of hoping Focus Blast misses which is what both of those teams are basically built around. You don't even need to use Zam on PsySpam so that's irrelevant whether or not that's used anymore. Like the meta is really favoring Zam if anything. People are getting complacent in team building as we have clearly been seeing with some of these snake matches. Trosko also brought Zone with Zam which heavily pressures any Steela team because most will be too scared to even go into it on Zam. Zam is nowhere near as bad as Zard-Y like lol what. "It's not fast enough to escape being revenged by most scarf users" I don't even know what this is supposed to mean lol. How fast does a Pokemon have to be.

C to C+: This mon is like lowkey nice as fuck. It's still not THAT great but it basically snacks all over standard CelePex balance with the Sub 3 attacks set, which has seen like 4 uses in Snake so far. Shuca, Groundium Z, Lefites, and Waterium Z are all cool options to run on that set to lure offensive Lando or like break through Clef/Mew better. Still faces a lot of competition and it is a weird mon but it's better than the shit in C imo.

Here are other noms LL brought up but I don't really have much to add on myself. Hera should def drop tho, just don't really see a reason to use it anymore when there are so many good breakers and Megas.

Hawlucha to B+: Hawlucha is broken and just busts through a ton of offensive and defensive teams alike, not even requiring all that much chip to destroy things like Toxapex and Tapu Koko. Pair this thing with hazard stack and it just wins games by itself.

Tapu Fini to B: Tapu Fini is an alright bulky water that can still fit onto teams in this meta, but it's honestly a good bit worse than Mantine and can't consistently check what it's supposed to because of its lack of reliable recovery. The recent rise in Sub Volcanion and Scizor aren't doing this thing any favors either. Tapu Fini is still a fine Pokemon, but it faces way too much competition in this metagame and doesn't like the metagame now and should be moved a rank below Mantine.

Mega Hera to B or B-: This thing is honestly super suboptimal as a breaker because of its shit speed tier combined with being really hard to fit on builds in general, not to mention it takes up a mega slot. If I want to use a wallbreaking mega I'd much rather use something like Maw, Medi, Zardx, etc. This thing has been on a backslide for quite a while now and has a pitiful winrate in tours along with just generally being a steaming pile of shit.

Bisharp to B-: Webs is dead and this thing is like never used anywhere else. It's still kinda threatening, but with all the fast offensive dark resists that are good rn (not to mention specs lele being a dickhead) along with the complete lack of setup opportunities this thing has makes it a subpar choice overall.

 

[BlueLobster]

I completely agree with the Hawlucha rise. It is a scary mon to face, with just 1 SD under it's belt it can blow through so much and is amazingly difficult to revenge due to the electric seed boost making it able to tank priority moves and unburden making it faster than most scarfers, meaning if your opponent is moderately competent they can get Hawlucha in very easily by sacking Koko and then they're away. Offense has an extremely hard time against this mon, with Koko being it's best check, which dies to poison jab and even if it isn't carrying it, doesn't need much chip. Even fatter teams are in for a hard time V it's powerful STAB attacks, and as others stated it doesn't need much chip to break through its weaker checks like Toxapex. It's certainly more threatening than most of B+, such as Garchomp, at the moment.

 

[GJLimeade]

Respectfully disagree on M-Hera dropping, but that might just be my personal experience having decent ladder success with it. Zygarde still exists, as do Bulu, Kartana, Ttar, Excadrill, M-Lopunny, M-Scizor, and similar physical attackers that it tanks and offensively threatens. Its bulk gives it some important perks over Medicham and it's still extremely difficult to switch into given its gargantuan attack stat and the fact that Lando and Pex can be easily worn down over the course of the battle with well-timed SDs and Rock Blasts. It also legitimately 6-0s Trick Room.

Also only B+ for Hawlucha? That thing is quickly becoming one of the most annoying mons in the tier IMO.

 

[Latioswars]

I think mega medichamp should stay in B+ rank like zard x is better than medi and that thing shares the same rank, mega zam destroys HO and mega pert is broken on rain and gengar is another great breaker, i think medichamp niche as wall breaker is a bit overrated cause hjk its not that spamable and once you miss you lose your mega and i have seen many players lose cause bs hax, while hax is part of the game you are not missing a mon if for example you miss fire blast, but missing hjk probably means you lose your balance wallbreaker so i would rather use a more consistent wallbreaker like zard x or garchomp which share the same rank.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

I think mega medichamp should stay in B+ rank like zard x is better than medi and that thing shares the same rank, mega zam destroys HO and mega pert is broken on rain and gengar is another great breaker, i think medichamp niche as wall breaker is a bit overrated cause hjk its not that spamable and once you miss you lose your mega and i have seen many players lose cause bs hax, while hax is part of the game you are not missing a mon if for example you miss fire blast, but missing hjk probably means you lose your balance wallbreaker so i would rather use a more consistent wallbreaker like zard x or garchomp which shares the same rank.

Hax is not a good reason for something to drop unless it’s best move is like 70% acuraccy. And, as you know, High Jump Kick has 90% accuracy, which isn’t half bad. While it can be annoying to face protect users like celesteela and heatran, the 50 50 is still in Medichams favor, as celesteela and heatran do not enjoy taking medichams coverage moves and If Medicham loses the 50 50, It still has 50% health.
Medicham is also way better than the rest of B+ except for Zard X, but I wouldnt mind him getting a raise to. The mons you mentioned are not better than Medicham at all. Garchomp has little reason to be used over Landorus as a breaker, and the meta is very unfavorable towards gengar right now. Medicham has no safe switching except for Mew, which has been falling off lately and is easily crippled with (toxic) spikes, the uncommon Cofagrigus and Reuniclus, Cresselia, and Mega Sabeleye. Even Sabeleye and Reuniclus are pretty shaky if you are facing thunder punch medi, as it is always paired with koko. Under terrain, TP 2kos Mega Sabeleye and Reuniclus.
In conclusion, Mega Medi is a fearsome breaker that undeservly moves to much less consistent pokemon, and needs to go back to a-. It’s certainly not a top tier threat, but b+ is underselling it.

 

[mapplesauce]

Going to nominate MCamel back to B-
Not sure why it dropped when soo many things it forces out are extremely common
List of mons that MCamel can reliably beat in the top tiers:

list

Toxapex Scald fails to OHKO, MCamel outspeeds with investment
Celesteela Fails to do anything
Ferrothorn Outsped and Power Whip doesn't do a lot
Heatran Earth Power is not strong enough, Substitute can have a chance though
Magearna Does little (apart from freeze hax) while getting OHKO without AV
Tapu Koko (w/o u-turn) Does like nothing
Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch at +2 only has 12.5% (1/8) to OHKO
Scizor Mega Only pivot
Magnezone Can't do much
Tangrowth EQ can't even 2hko at times
Venusaur-Mega Fire blast 2hkos while EQ fails to OHKO, Giga Drain from Offensive set can win though.

Moreover, it's great bulk allows it to survive even powerful super effective hits and KO back, a good example would be Mega-Diancie, whose Earth Power fails to KO.
It also has access to Stealth Rock which benefits from the switches it forces and Nature Power which works especially well with Tapu Koko, since it can lure its checks in and U-Turn out to MCamel who can force them out to a normal check but Nature Power (TBolt) gets a KO on the water types and flying types.[/hide]

Yeah I support this. Celepex core can't do anything about m-camerupt, and not many mons can switch in very well to camerupt's stab moves. Camel also doesn't die to z-celebrate victini if it's healthy enough and can revenge kill it with earth power.

Some random camel calcs:

calcs

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 334-394 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 254-302 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 322-379 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 301-355 (105.6 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 235-277 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. +1 4 SpD Victini: 306-360 (89.7 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 156-184 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 190-224 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 163-193 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 220-260 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[AM]

I think mega medichamp should stay in B+ rank like zard x is better than medi and that thing shares the same rank, mega zam destroys HO and mega pert is broken on rain and gengar is another great breaker, i think medichamp niche as wall breaker is a bit overrated cause hjk its not that spamable and once you miss you lose your mega and i have seen many players lose cause bs hax, while hax is part of the game you are not missing a mon if for example you miss fire blast, but missing hjk probably means you lose your balance wallbreaker so i would rather use a more consistent wallbreaker like zard x or garchomp which share the same rank.

Hax is not a good reason for something to drop unless it’s best move is like 70% acuraccy. And, as you know, High Jump Kick has 90% accuracy, which isn’t half bad. While it can be annoying to face protect users like celesteela and heatran, the 50 50 is still in Medichams favor, as celesteela and heatran do not enjoy taking medichams coverage moves and If Medicham loses the 50 50, It still has 50% health.
Medicham is also way better than the rest of B+ except for Zard X, but I wouldnt mind him getting a raise to. The mons you mentioned are not better than Medicham at all. Garchomp has little reason to be used over Landorus as a breaker, and the meta is very unfavorable towards gengar right now. Medicham has no safe switching except for Mew, which has been falling off lately and is easily crippled with (toxic) spikes, the uncommon Cofagrigus and Reuniclus, Cresselia, and Mega Sabeleye. Even Sabeleye and Reuniclus are pretty shaky if you are facing thunder punch medi, as it is always paired with koko. Under terrain, TP 2kos Mega Sabeleye and Reuniclus.
In conclusion, Mega Medi is a fearsome breaker that undeservly moves to much less consistent pokemon, and needs to go back to a-. It’s certainly not a top tier threat, but b+ is underselling it.

Gonna post some of my own personal thoughts as well as some brought up by esteemed OU alt maker LL in OU discord.

B+ to A-: Yeah I was one of the few people that was against this dropping on the VR council aside from Finch iirc. Mew usage is dropping quite a lot because people are starting to gravitate to other removers such as Kartana as well as standard Latios/Mega Sciz bullshit. A lot of the current balance running around use like defensive Lando or like Clef as their Medi switch-in both of which lose if they mispredict, the former can be 2HKOed by STAB into Ice Punch usually anyway. It hasn't been used much in snake but the few times it has it's definitely put in some good work. Mega Sab is also a lot less common with stall usage not being nearly as popular with Duggy ban. A lot of the VR council is against Medi but I've never really been sure of why myself I'm just the messenger boy. I just think it's super underrated and it's like really effective if played correctly but no one seems to want to bring it in Snake cause HJK is a bad move ig lol.

In regards to this current discussion regarding M-Cham I think it would be better to drop stuff to justify Medicham in B+ as opposed to raising this. Some of the mons in B+ are simply not really good or very situational to archetypes and or teams. The same applies to A- except a bit less so.

For the sake of just throwing it out there I went ahead and grabbed the replays I could find of M-Cham being used for Phase 2 as Phase 1 had replay issues at the time so if people have those they can put them here to.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324501 - Balance - good matchup for M-Cham did most of the work

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324891 - Stall - good matchup but in the end did not make a difference in the matchup, everything else did. Sableye didn't deter it either but result was the same.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325008 - Good matchup, did the bulk of the work granted I'm questioning the reliability of that team it put work in against considering it looks weak to tons of stuff / archetypes in general and very prediction reliant.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325602 - Good matchup but HJK miss sealed its fate. This is important to note because one of the quotes mentions RNG shouldn't matter depending on a certain threshold of accuracy, however this isn't the first time this scenario has happened and is always in the back of a builders mind when accounting for using M-Cham and having some sort of plan B understanding HJK misses do and will happen. Reliability is part of viability and should be considered even small as this.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-648463783 - This is an okay matchup that doesn't outright show M-Chams viability but the presence of Tapu Lele is important here as it'll stop Fake Out on Weavile, Lele still being a top tier mon where Fake Out is crucial in M-Chams matchup against offense and offensive mons. The M-Cham team did not have good ice resists and the decent ones hate Knock Off so I would assume the play was to remove it out of the equation knowing M-Cham could live a hit in that replay. Unfortunately it wasn't surviving a Z-Move but the outcome was Nihilego cleaning up anyways.

I skimmed through the replays of Phase 2. There are some teams that would have issues with M-Cham such as the fatter stuff like the M-Venusaur team in the first replay. But there was a looooot of teams that isn't going to particularly care about M-Cham, the ones with Mew, Tapu Lele being Scarf or deterring Fake out, offensive mons in general, priority users, and occassionally Clefable. I understand the point about its matchup with balance but let's be real when we say balance is always going to have issues with wallbreakers such as this and you need to account for how it handles a typical offense which I saw plenty of in these replays I was skimming through (not the ones posted here). I saw more sand teams being utilized, I'm still seeing people using rain, hell the matchup was almost perfect for M-Cham in that replay against stall and it still couldn't do its job. I don't think B+ for M-Medi is underselling it but I do think relooking at the A- and B+ rank would help close the viability gap a bit better especially the b+ as mentioned has a lot of filler / not so useful mons in the metagame to me personally, Tapu Fini being a big one.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

In regards to this current discussion regarding M-Cham I think it would be better to drop stuff to justify Medicham in B+ as opposed to raising this. Some of the mons in B+ are simply not really good or very situational to archetypes and or teams. The same applies to A- except a bit less so.

For the sake of just throwing it out there I went ahead and grabbed the replays I could find of M-Cham being used for Phase 2 as Phase 1 had replay issues at the time so if people have those they can put them here to.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324501 - Balance - good matchup for M-Cham did most of the work

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324891 - Stall - good matchup but in the end did not make a difference in the matchup, everything else did. Sableye didn't deter it either but result was the same.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325008 - Good matchup, did the bulk of the work granted I'm questioning the reliability of that team it put work in against considering it looks weak to tons of stuff / archetypes in general and very prediction reliant.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325602 - Good matchup but HJK miss sealed its fate. This is important to note because one of the quotes mentions RNG shouldn't matter depending on a certain threshold of accuracy, however this isn't the first time this scenario has happened and is always in the back of a builders mind when accounting for using M-Cham and having some sort of plan B understanding HJK misses do and will happen. Reliability is part of viability and should be considered even small as this.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-648463783 - This is an okay matchup that doesn't outright show M-Chams viability but the presence of Tapu Lele is important here as it'll stop Fake Out on Weavile, Lele still being a top tier mon where Fake Out is crucial in M-Chams matchup against offense and offensive mons. The M-Cham team did not have good ice resists and the decent ones hate Knock Off so I would assume the play was to remove it out of the equation knowing M-Cham could live a hit in that replay. Unfortunately it wasn't surviving a Z-Move but the outcome was Nihilego cleaning up anyways.

I skimmed through the replays of Phase 2. There are some teams that would have issues with M-Cham such as the fatter stuff like the M-Venusaur team in the first replay. But there was a looooot of teams that isn't going to particularly care about M-Cham, the ones with Mew, Tapu Lele being Scarf or deterring Fake out, offensive mons in general, priority users, and occassionally Clefable. I understand the point about its matchup with balance but let's be real when we say balance is always going to have issues with wallbreakers such as this and you need to account for how it handles a typical offense which I saw plenty of in these replays I was skimming through (not the ones posted here). I saw more sand teams being utilized, I'm still seeing people using rain, hell the matchup was almost perfect for M-Cham in that replay against stall and it still couldn't do its job. I don't think B+ for M-Medi is underselling it but I do think relooking at the A- and B+ rank would help close the viability gap a bit better especially the b+ as mentioned has a lot of filler / not so useful mons in the metagame to me personally, Tapu Fini being a big one.

You made a great post with good points as usual.
But I do want to say this. While medichams offensive match up isn’t that great, It’s far from deadweight against it. The absurd power creep of this generation means every offensive team has defensive backbones, mainly with magearna, ferrothorn, and Landorus. Medicham can come in on all of them Andy offense has to sack something. Furthermore, having faster pokemon doesn’t make you totally safe against Medicham, as it still has powerful priority in addition to not being able to switch in.
I do agree with you that b+ needs some cleaning, and I do support a fini drop.

 

[Nuked]

Mega Slowbro should stay in B-, it's still a good defensive Pokemon with some valuable utility because of its insane bulk and decent typing. All the shit it checks (non-Bloom Tran, Zard X, Swampert, Lopunny, Landorus-T, Mega Cham, etc) all get good enough usage to give it a defined niche as a defensive Pokemon that can check a bunch of shit at once. It has some usage in snake (used 6 times, won 4/6 games) and overall isn't bad enough to drop into C+ with unused mons like azu, shuckle, etc.

 

[Charmflash]

So I've been rly active recently, keeping up with all the snake games and even laddering a bit myself therefore I'd like to give my input on the hot topics as well as some mons that I feel like aren't placed correctly.

My 2 cent on the ongoing discussions:

B --> B+ : Agree
Hawlucha is one of the scariest sweeper in OU. It is incredibly hard to revenge kill and surprisingly versatile. Checks and Counters can easily be overpowered by hazards or specific coverage such as Stone Edge for Zapdos or Poison Jab for Koko and to some extent Clefable. Ive personally even been toying around with defensive flyinium-z Landorus-Therian to stop it among other things since it is that threatening.

B+ --> A- : Agree
Mega-Medicham is insanely powerful and a huge threat for many balanced builds. It can also fare well against offense due to its access to priority (or even double priority if ur feeling it) and is able to pressure stall as well (Mega-Sableye can be pressured if rocks/other hazards are up or with Electric Terrain + Thunder Punch, especially specially defensive versions). Overall, I believe this mon to be Mega-Tyranitar / Tangrowth level and not Skarmory / Weavile.

A --> A+ : Disagree
Scarf as well as SD sets are both really cool right now. Normalium/Darkium/Grassium/Steelium/Fightium - Z are all solid options on this pokemon and break through a lot. It also learns and can use Defog, which is another cool factor to this mon. However, due to its poor defensive utility I think it should stay in A for now alongside Kyurem-Black and company.

A --> A+ : Disagree
Volcarona has some really interesting sets with psychium-z and sub-swarm but its weakness to Stealth Rock combined with the fact that everybody still prepares for this A LOT dont allow it to rise further than A for now.

C --> Somewhere in B : Agree
I can see how this can annoy Toxapex and his friends with substitute. It also had good success in snake so rising this should be a given.


A nominations of my own:

Unranked --> B
Raikou hasn't gotten any attention this gen, simply because Tapu Koko almost outclasses it completely with its only selling point being a bit of extra bulk. However, I believe substitute sets to be better than anything Koko can pull off.

Subtoxic

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 236 SpA / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
- Substitute

The SpD is so Celesteela never breaks your sub with Flamethrower, 4HP lets you recover more from Leftovers, although you do take 1 bonus point of dmg if u switch on rocks

- Takes advantage of

- Takes advantage of

,

,

,

,

- Adores the terrains set up by opposing

,

- Toxic is incredibly hard to switch into since it beats poison and steel types besides

extremely easy.

- This type of set tends to be rather weak against offense, however, that isn't the case with Raikou due to its great speed and special bulk as shown by this game.

I will upload more replays that showcase this set's potency.

 

[lydian]

I would also like to give my support to some nominations in this thread!

Volcanion C

B-

Sub three attacks is a masterpiece, I'm really glad one of my favourite mons has recovered its niche in the OU Meta (it was decent back in ORAS). Still, Volcanion's new set allows it to outright wall and stall Toxapex, Suicune, Mantine and many others would be checks, not to mention it manhandles almost any variant of CelePex + another Defensive 'mon. It for sure isn't the fearsome Wallbreaker it used to be back in ORAS, but I think it deserves the B- spot.

Volcarona A

A+

Let's talk about the other (and possibly more relevant) Volc, SubSwarm is lowkey broken. It's for sure my favourite Volcarona set and it puts so much work. In the first place, unlike all other Volcarona sets, SubSwarm sets up and OHKO's Chansey at +3, all you need is a Heatran lure, a Toxapex lure and its gg. Of course there's the prevalence of 100+ Scarfers but they are nowhere near as common as they once were, and using Sub as Scarfer switches in, means you fire off a powerful hit on them preventing them to stop your sweep. Also non-Haze Toxapex is set up bait (but that's kind of a bad set though..).

Hawlucha B

B+

This thing is in my opinion the most reliable revenge killer in the entire tier. There weren't any shifts but the increasing usage of the Pokémon on Offense shows how influential it can be. It only needs some chip to KO most mons in offensive builds and if supported right it can clean up versus balance as well. The likes of Tangrowth, Ferrothorn and Defensive Lando-T giving it set up opportunities is huge for it as well.

Tapu Fini B+

B

This Pokémon is still good, but tbh, the lack of reliable recovery sucks for it, with more reliable Stealth Rock setters in the tier like Mega Diancie and Landorus-T becoming more and more common, Tapu Fini really struggles to keep up, and act as a reliable Defoger. options like Mew, Mega Scizor, Mantine, and many others are prefered over Fini just because Fini is becoming more and more easy to pressure, the influx or Kartana and Volcanion also sucks for it, and it faces massive competition from other Defogers.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

So I've been rly active recently, keeping up with all the snake games and even laddering a bit myself therefore I'd like to give my input on the hot topics as well as some mons that I feel like aren't placed correctly.

My 2 cent on the ongoing discussions:

B --> B+ : Agree
Hawlucha is one of the scariest sweeper in OU. It is incredibly hard to revenge kill and surprisingly versatile. Checks and Counters can easily be overpowered by hazards or specific coverage such as Stone Edge for Zapdos or Poison Jab for Koko and to some extent Clefable. Ive personally even been toying around with defensive flyinium-z Landorus-Therian to stop it among other things since it is that threatening.

B+ --> A- : Agree
Mega-Medicham is insanely powerful and a huge threat for many balanced builds. It can also fare well against offense due to its access to priority (or even double priority if ur feeling it) and is able to pressure stall as well (Mega-Sableye can be pressured if rocks/other hazards are up or with Electric Terrain + Thunder Punch, especially specially defensive versions). Overall, I believe this mon to be Mega-Tyranitar / Tangrowth level and not Skarmory / Weavile.

A --> A+ : Disagree
Scarf as well as SD sets are both really cool right now. Normalium/Darkium/Grassium/Steelium/Fightium - Z are all solid options on this pokemon and break through a lot. It also learns and can use Defog, which is another cool factor to this mon. However, due to its poor defensive utility I think it should stay in A for now alongside Kyurem-Black and company.

A --> A+ : Disagree
Volcarona has some really interesting sets with psychium-z and sub-swarm but its weakness to Stealth Rock combined with the fact that everybody still prepares for this A LOT dont allow it to rise further than A for now.

C --> Somewhere in B : Agree
I can see how this can annoy Toxapex and his friends with substitute. It also had good success in snake so rising this should be a given.


A nominations of my own:

Unranked --> B
Raikou hasn't gotten any attention this gen, simply because Tapu Koko almost outclasses it completely with its only selling point being a bit of extra bulk. However, I believe substitute sets to be better than anything Koko can pull off.

Subtoxic

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 236 SpA / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
- Substitute

The SpD is so Celesteela never breaks your sub with Flamethrower, 4HP lets you recover more from Leftovers, although you do take 1 bonus point of dmg if u switch on rocks

- Takes advantage of

- Takes advantage of

,

,

,

,

- Adores the terrains set up by opposing

,

- Toxic is incredibly hard to switch into since it beats poison and steel types besides

extremely easy.

- This type of set tends to be rather weak against offense, however, that isn't the case with Raikou due to its great speed and special bulk as shown by this game.

I will upload more replays that showcase this set's potency.

I personally agree with kartana and volcarona to A+ and I find your counter arguments rather poor.
Kartana should rise to A+ because it is literally has no reliable switch ins because of fightinium and Darkinium z. Zapdos is not a safe counter, as black hole eclipse lets it ohko after rocks at 2+. Personally, I find it way better than fightinium z, since darkinium z breaks normal checks and still hits steels. It’s also one of hyper offenses best options for hazard removal. Admitally, it’s defensive utility is nothing special, but it is good enough to use ferrothorn, Defensive Lando t, and some other passive mons. Furthermore, we already know that it’s defensive utility isn’t that good. It’s actually better than ash greninja defensive utitly, because of its good defensive typing, as well as it being able to actually take a hit. Furthermore, if a Pokémon has nuclear offensive power, poor defensive utility doesn’t decide viability. Look at my friend deoxys a.
Volcarona deserves to rise to A+ because people are preparing less for it, it’s psychium z and sub swarm sets being able to nae nae Volcarona checks. It also is way more influential then the A mons, as it ends games on its own, none of the A mons can boast.
As for Raikou, is a sub pp staller that good in the current state of meta? I can’t find a reason to use it over suicune, even though it fell of as of late, it still is way bulkier, a superior typing, and it abuses poison way better. Maybe Raikou is deserving of a ranking, but if you think that Raikou deserves the same rank My as Charizard Y and The superior sub calm mind user suicune, I do not see any reason to continue being serious with you.
I do agree with the rest of your nominations though.

 

[robopoke]

but if you think that Raikou deserves the same rank My as Charizard Y and The superior sub calm mind user suicune, I do not see any reason to continue being serious with you.

Also Kyurem is in C and if you think that Articuno deserves the same ranking as Kyurem then I do not see any reason to continue being serious with you.

lol is this a meme now?

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 236 SpA / 16 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
- Substitute

The SpD is so Celesteela never breaks your sub with Flamethrower, 4HP lets you recover more from Leftovers, although you do take 1 bonus point of dmg if u switch on rocks

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 82-97 (25.4 - 30.1%)

This is why you should always supply replays because mistakes like this never happen. You also do not take advantage of Magearna coz that boy just Iron Heads and Volts while breaking your Sub 100% of the time and force you out. Setidea itself is pretty cool and kinda reminds me of a mini SubToxic Heatran that has Pressure, high Speed instead of a Steeltyping.

Also all you need for maximum Lefties recovery is 0 HP invetments.

Hide

In needs to your given description, this might be worth more:

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 64 HP / 116 Def / 76 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]

HPstat for max HP recovery, while Flamethrower and Heavy Slam wont your Sub. Now Heavy Slam also does not break your sub. You lose the reliable 2HKO against Ferro, though but you did not mention this Calc anyway.

 

[Charmflash]

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 82-97 (25.4 - 30.1%)

This is why you should always supply replays because mistakes like this never happen. You also do not take advantage of Magearna coz that boy just Iron Heads and Volts while breaking your Sub 100% of the time and force you out. Setidea itself is pretty cool and kinda reminds me of a mini SubToxic Heatran that has Pressure, high Speed instead of a Steeltyping.

Also all you need for maximum Lefties recovery is 0 HP invetments.

Thank you (◠‿◠)
I've really been enjoying this set :)
As for the bonus physdef investment, I didn't want to commit to such a huge investment, although it might be worth it. The 16 spd is basically nothing and allows you to tank against occasional non heavy slam versions with toxic or substitute.
Also, would you mind explaining why 64 HP give you the maximum recovery? I thought an even number allows lefties to recover one additional HP :o

 

[robopoke]

Maximum Leftovers recovery is achieved with an HPstat divisible by 16. Example HP Stats: 320, 336, 352, 368, 384, 400, 416
But this is also achieved if you add 4 more HP EVs. 321, 337, 353 etc.
You can test this if you want and especially on users with Substitute it is important to maximize recovery to get all the HP back lost from Substitute after 4 turns. This is why Heatran should always run 248 HP EVs and Ferrothorn 252 HP EVs. In Heatrans case it has 385 HP and Ferrothorn 352, both numbers that maximize recovery.

As apology for derailing this thread with EVoptimization a little bit I have a cool tech for you guys:
a) Iapapa Berry Toxapex

If you think about it, Toxapex does not really need Black Sludge or Lefties. Its bulk, typing, ability and movepool make Toxapex viable with basicly any item and that is when I asked myself why not use Iapapa Berry? That item ensures you get the recovery when you need it:

Just look at turn 20-23:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-646729069

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

B+ ---> A-

C ---> C+

Drops

B+ ---> B

B+ ---> B

B ---> B-

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

C- ---> UR

Reasonings

• Hoopa-U has been seeing more usage with balance rising. It can spam its strong Hyperspace Fury or Dark Pulses pretty freely even with the threat of AV Gear/CB T-Tar running around, as both of them have to be careful of coverage/hazards.
• Volcanion is the only rise this week, because the council felt like it was the only Pokemon that has recently really changed in viability for the better. Its Sub set is quite annoying for bulkier balance builds that utilize CelePex/Clef and Ferro because it can Sub up on basically all of them and spam its strong STABs. It can also run a few item choices, such as Lefties for more Subs, Shuca to lure offensive Lando, Groundium Z for Pex, and Waterium for ways to bust through Clef and Mew better.
• Tapu Fini faces a lot of competition as a hazard remover atm. As a defensive remover, it competes with Mega Scizor, Mantine, Mew and even Zapdos, while offensive teams usually just run Kartana or Latios. It has a solid defensive typing which allows it to check Ash Gren as well as soft check shit like Mega Lopunny, and its Speed tier isn't terrible either so it has some cool utility, which is why it's still decently high on the rankings.
• Mega Heracross faces a ton of competition as not just a breaker, but also a Mega. There are plenty of good balance breakers to choose from in the tier atm, even Pokemon like Hoopa-U which were previously subpar are starting to see more usage now over it. Most teams would rather run something like Mega Medicham or Mega Mawile as their Mega breaker anyways, or even Zard-X.
• Bisharp is very niche on certain HOs builds like Webs but those are very uncommon in the current meta, and Bisharp is very hard to fit onto any other team archetype.
• Dragonite dropped because its main niche was on xtrashine bird spam, which has fallen off significantly with the massive Koko influx.
• Mega Bro is super fat and can check a wide variety of physical attackers, but its competition for a Mega slot and extreme vulnerability to T-Spikes makes it suboptimal in the current metagame. It also lets shit like Ash Gren in kinda free which sucks a lot.
• Slowbro is the same basically except less physically bulky so yeah it sucks even more
• Mega Gard's niche as a Fairy wallbreaker is really small considering Tapu Lele exists AND no Mega slot. It's just faster.
• Scolipede's niche is like a Spiker ig because who would actually use offensive Scolipede tbh. Idk I think it's unviable
• Now this is unviable in a tier where Pex, Mega Venu, and Ferrothorn, it just loses Trick Room momentum and Daunt is usually 10x better. I'd rather be weaker to Ash.

Council Slate

Mega Medi B+ to A-: 50/50 like usual
Mega Hera B+ to B: All agreed
Tapu Fini B+ to B: All agreed
Hawlucha B to B+: 50/50
Bisharp B to B-: Mostly all agreed
Dragonite B- to C+: All agreed
Mega Bro B- to C+: All agreed
Volcanion C to C+: All agreed
Alakazam C to UR: 50/50
Slowbro C to C-: All agreed
Mega Gard C to C-/UR: Most said C-
Scolipede C to C-/UR: Most said C-
Araquanid C- to UR: Mostly all agreed
Cofagrigus C- to UR: 50/50

Just kidding ye boi Hoopa not on discussion slate I missed a few votes and it was voted A- by most council members. Sorry Medi still didn't go up lmao I still cry myself to sleep every night fuck TDK tbh.

 

[LoneMonkey]

I wonder why Togekiss, in UU, is ranked, but Breloom, a half tier above in BL, is unranked. This would imply that Togekiss is better than Breloom, so shouldn't Breloom also be moved down to UU? This applies to a ton of other pokemon too...

 

[Jordy]

I wonder why Togekiss, in UU, is ranked, but Breloom, a half tier above in BL, is unranked. This would imply that Togekiss is better than Breloom, so shouldn't Breloom also be moved down to UU? This applies to a ton of other pokemon too...

no, the concept of BL is that they are too good for UU but dont have enough usage for OU, this doesn't indicate how good a mon is in ou at all.

 

[Felixx]

I wonder why Togekiss, in UU, is ranked, but Breloom, a half tier above in BL, is unranked. This would imply that Togekiss is better than Breloom, so shouldn't Breloom also be moved down to UU? This applies to a ton of other pokemon too...

BL means that the mon dosent have enough usage for OU, but is banned from use in UU, this does not state that breloom is better than togekiss or togekiss is better than breloom, a mons viability in one tier dosent effect its viability in another since different tiers have different playstyles being more popular than others and meta conditions in UU are different than in OU, one could say stall is more common in UU than OU, or that regular scizor is lit in UU while regular scizor isnt lit in OU

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

I wonder why Togekiss, in UU, is ranked, but Breloom, a half tier above in BL, is unranked. This would imply that Togekiss is better than Breloom, so shouldn't Breloom also be moved down to UU? This applies to a ton of other pokemon too...

You can see for example that Gastrodon, a PU mon, is ranked B, meanwhile remains unranked in UU and RU

 

[Flame from Heaven]

The viability ranks seem pretty good for the most part, (kartana still needs to go A+ and Medicham needs to go to A-.
However, I noticed a big outlier in the b rank. That Pokémon is Manaphy.
Manaphy was ranked B for its impact on sticky webs as well as AC offense and Birdspam. Birdspam is dead right now because of Tapu Koko, which also hurts Manaphy as a whole. AV offense has really fell from grace, as Sticky webs did. And Manaphy isn’t finding its way on to any teams realistically because of how much competition it has with both greni has as an offensive water. Every team that needs a balance breaker would rather run a better balance breaker that also has utitly besides beating balance, like kartana and hoopa U. No, it’s not a stall breaker either, becuase chansey and clefable exist. It’s only shot of finding itself on a team are three niche play styles.
If you take a look at the b rank, Manaphy is worst than almost all of them. Alolamamola is a staple on a lot of stall and BO builds, Amoonguss is a nice alternative to venusuar, Reuniclus and Suicune can sweep unprepared teams, Excadrill is a staple on HO, Mega Hera and Zard Y are good wallbreakers, you get the idea. And looking at b-, I would rather use those mons than Manaphy In a heartbeat, Victini and Mega Gyarados in particular. Exceptions include Terakkion, Gallade and bisharp, But I wouldn’t mind if those dropped too.
I think Manaphy fits nicley in c+. I can live with B-, but Then I would probably start nominating B- mons up.
Edit: Seeing counterarguments have changed my mind. I’m going to start lurking more before I make more nominations.

 

[vso]

The viability ranks seem pretty good for the most part, (kartana still needs to go A+ and Medicham needs to go to A-.
However, I noticed a big outlier in the b rank. That Pokémon is Manaphy.
Manaphy was ranked B for its impact on sticky webs as well as AC offense and Birdspam. Birdspam is dead right now because of Tapu Koko, which also hurts Manaphy as a whole. AV offense has really fell from grace, as Sticky webs did. And Manaphy isn’t finding its way on to any teams realistically because of how much competition it has with both greni has as an offensive water. Every team that needs a balance breaker would rather run a better balance breaker that also has utitly besides beating balance, like kartana and hoopa U. No, it’s not a stall breaker either, becuase chansey and clefable exist. It’s only shot of finding itself on a team are three niche play styles.
If you take a look at the b rank, Manaphy is worst than almost all of them. Alolamamola is a staple on a lot of stall and BO builds, Amoonguss is a nice alternative to venusuar, Reuniclus and Suicune can sweep unprepared teams, Excadrill is a staple on HO, Mega Hera and Zard Y are good wallbreakers, you get the idea. And looking at b-, I would rather use those mons than Manaphy In a heartbeat, Victini and Mega Gyarados in particular. Exceptions include Terakkion, Gallade and bisharp, But I wouldn’t mind if those dropped too.
I think Manaphy fits nicley in c+. I can live with B-, but Then I would probably start nominating B- mons up.

I don't know what you are talking about as Manaphy has seen quite a bit of Snake + OLT usage with TG + 3 attacks + Waterium Z and has been a fantastic wallbreaker as it breaks stuff like VenuSteela and CelePex balances very well. It is seen on quite a few types offenses. It is also a Pokemon that can pressure more offensive teams a fair bit with its decent bulk. Zard Y is a trash balance breaker as it loses to Toxapex. Also, Manaphy is capable of beating stall as they sometimes forgo Clef for Quagsire. If anything, it deserves to rise and defo not two ranks. It also killed all 6 members of a ZamBO( with healing wish admittedly) in Snake.

 

[Gary]

Just a small nomination of my own.

UR ---> C: Mega Latios has always been considered like a meme pick because it's basically just a weaker LO Latios and DD is a garbage set but I think this Pokemon legit has merit in the current metagame. As we have seen throughout most of Snake and just in general over the last couple of weeks, Megas are by no means a mandatory pick on a successful team compared to ORAS, especially on more offensive teams. Back when Chomp was pretty decent, people were using Mega Chomp on teams that didn't run another Mega, just cause it's basically a slower, much stronger and bulkier Garchomp, so why not. Mega Latios is very much the same, except without any negatives. Life Orb Latios doesn't exist, and any time you're not using Scarf or a Z move, you are usually using Soul Dew. But if you're not running a Mega on your team, Mega Latios is 100% legit a good option. This Semi finals match where Omfuga brought it vs Thethorn perfectly demonstrates what I mean. Draco Meteor / Psychic / Earthquake / Roost takes full advantage of Mega Latios' attributes, as it is able to 2HKO CB T-tar and dodge being check mated by Pursuit unlike regular Latios which just dies to Pursuit regardless if it switches out or not. Earthquake is also to 2HKO AV Magearna after Stealth Rock, OHKO max HP Heatran with a very small amount of prior damage, OHKO Magnezone, forces Mega Mawile to Sucker you, etc. The extra bulk is just really nice in general, because it's no longer super weak to Knock Off and can basically wall AV Tangrowth. Overall, it's nothing special, and regular Latios is still a superior pick in most scenarios, but if you're not using any other Mega and find yourself using Latios, it's definitely a fine pick, because of its extra added Attack/durability which lets it basically function as a better Latios that is harder to wall without forgoing longevity.

 

[Finchinator]

Although I don't approve of Gary going full sedertz and nominating a Pokemon because "OMG it was good in snake", I do approve of this nomination. I feel like a lot of people automatically rule out the prospect of using it because Mega Latios has adopted this "not worthwhile" connotation to its name when in reality it certainly is viable. Mega Latios compliments Latios in a weird sense with Earthquake, allowing it to handle normal counterplay with ease. The extra bulk is very much welcome and I feel like there are numerous scenarios in which using it become warranted. I do not think it should rise above C or C+, but this is a good place for this previously untested threat.

Another Pokemon I believe should move down is Skarmory. Currently, it is residing in B rank and honestly, who the fuck uses Skarmory in October 2017? lmao. Like fr, it was only here because it was on Dugtrio meta stall and with stall taking a hit in overall viability and not using Skarmory as much anymore, it is clear that there's minimal place for the wannabe Celesteela of the tier. I'd be surprised if many people defended it in B+ tbh, so I'd like for it to go to B, but could even understand B- if people support that as it really does not see much usage at all now.

Finally, I think that Mega Medicham and Mega Alakazam could be considered for A-. While I do not feel too strongly on these, I do believe this is where they belong and while the council was split or favoring B+, I hope that we can look into these two and perhaps change in the future depending on how the metagame develops. Mega Medicham is only countered by a small handful of Pokemon and Mega Alakazam straight up dominates many games, hitting hard with a ton of speed -- both of these Pokemon provide a lot to teams they are used on right now, I'd say.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

As Martin did bring up earlier, why is Gallade-Mega still B-? It's definitely not as good as Gyara mega and is honestly just way too niche for B-. Mew is falling off pretty badly. Drop Gallade-mega to C+ or even C.

Also, can we just unrank scolipede? It never sees usage anywhere and for damn good reason. I see no merit in using it over other spikes leads at all, Greninja in particular.

Yeah in general the upper ranks look good. I'd definitely back Mega Medi to A-. As a breaker people don't get that it is still pretty much impossible to wall while having great priority, it has synergy with the two best Tapus and pretty much ruins any balance core, moreso than Zard X, another breaker in B+.

I'd also back Fuck's Finchinator's nom of skarmory down. Stall is pretty much near dead. Let's face it. And not all of the few stall teams that actually still exist use it. It's not a staple at all, unlike the dug days. It fits absolutely nowhere outside of stall and honestly I wouldn't be opposed to it being B- in the least considering just how unsplashable and niche it is.

Also I'm not ending the bisharp hate train here and I'm nomming it to C+. It's just so bad in this meta. Like, it only fits on HO which isn't doing that well rn and even then it doesn't really fit on a lot of them Webs is dead and Gondra HO doesn't use it. It's just absolutely shit and I don't see the reason why we're being so slow in dropping it.

Finally yeah latios mega to C. Mega Evolutions don't have the same opportunity cost as they once did and it allows it to beat a lot of what would otherwise check it yadayada yeah Gary said what there was to say.