Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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You act like the 10 base power drop is a significant change, but completely brush off the dugtrio ban as being nothing more than of slight benefit. The dugtrio ban was a huge change for the meta, and dugtrio was a massive deterence to stop mega maw from ripping through stall and balance. IMO, Mega Maw is easily on the level of ferrothorn and celesteela,
I personally disagree with celesteela to A. While some meta trends you mentioned do hurt it, good teams featuring celesteela have solid counter play to these threats. Imagine me saying that magearna should go to a becuase it's setup fodder for volcarona and invites heatran in for free. While this is true, teams with magearna should have counterplay to these threats unless if they are trying to lose. You are also really underselling celesteelas influence in the metagame. The amount of Pokémon that would be more viable if celesteela didn't exist. Pinsir, alakazam, latios, heck even garchomp would be more viable.
Finally, celesteela has a huge over other bulky steels like ferro in the form of dodging the omnipresent spikes.
Celesteela ignoring spikes that invalidate a lot of walls, god tier typing, and influence in the metagame make it easily deserving of A+ rank.
 
Imagine me saying that magearna should go to a becuase it's setup fodder for volcarona and invites heatran in for free. While this is true, teams with magearna should have counterplay to these threats unless if they are trying to lose.
I don't really think this is a fair comparison. Yes heatran rising isn't necessarily the best for magearna, but there are still viable and excellent sets that beat heatran. On the other hand, celesteela always loses to heatran, unless you choose to run very niche and pretty terrible options. Meanwhile, yes volcorona does check magearna pretty hard, but no more than it ever has, whereas the counters i listed to celesteela are as prominent as ever.
The reason I didnt say magearna should move down is because its still clearly a meta defining pokemon, can perform many roles well, and just dropped down from S. Celesteela has been A+ since the meta was in its favour, but it clearly isn't anymore.
Another reason you said celesteela should remain in A+ is that its checks can be countered by teamates. First, this can be said about pretty well any pokemon and isn't a reason for a specific pokemon to be ranked highly. Second, its most common balance teamates don't even do a great job of countering koko and heatran. Toxapex loses to koko and has to really play around magma storm + earth power, tangrowth has been declining in usage and viability, and landorus cant switch in to either tran nor koko.
 
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I don't really think this is a fair comparison. Yes heatran rising isn't necessarily the best for magearna, but there are still viable and excellent sets that beat heatran. On the other hand, celesteela always loses to heatran, unless you choose to run very niche and pretty terrible options. Meanwhile, yes volcorona does check magearna pretty hard, but no more than it ever has, whereas the counters i listed to celesteela are as prominent as ever.
The reason I didnt say magearna should move down is because its still clearly a meta defining pokemon, can perform many roles well, and just dropped down from S. Celesteela has been A+ since the meta was in its favour, but it clearly isn't anymore.
My fault, I should have been more clear on the magearna part. I was mainly talking about the assault vest set, where fighting coverage is extremely niche like earthquake is on celesteela.
You also argued that volcarona checking magearna is nothing new. While this is true, I could do the same by saying tapu koko always checked celesteela, whether it ran choice specs or not.
I'm not saying celesteela is better than magearna lol. I would be insane if I said that. But you are really underselling celesteelas influence in the metagame by how many Pokémon it checks.
 
So like.... the Sucker punch nerf is 10 BP......10.... Can we stop using that as a reasoning to justify points? People used that as one of the reasons to unban M-Kanga and it seems like an insignificant point every single time its brought up in the grand scheme of things.
In fact, the Sucker Punch nerf have hurt Mega Mawile a lot...It can't OHKO some threats anymore with +2, like it did before

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+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 300-354 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (80 BP)
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+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-323 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 313-369 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (80 BP)
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+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 292-344 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (80 BP)
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+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 235-277 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (84 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
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So yeah, this nerf really matter considering the fact that this mon is still in OU
Not talking about viability by the way, it's just about the nerf :p
 
In fact, the Sucker Punch nerf have hurt Mega Mawile a lot...It can't OHKO some threats anymore with +2, like it did before

----------------------------------------------------------
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 300-354 (83.7 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 344-405 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (80 BP)
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+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-323 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 313-369 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (80 BP)
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+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (80.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 292-344 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (80 BP)
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+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 235-277 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (84 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-----------------------------------------------------------
So yeah, this nerf really matter considering the fact that this mon is still in OU
Not talking about viability by the way, it's just about the nerf :p
Except none of those calls actually affected mawile viability, all those mean is that it just needs a little more chip to sweep. Unless if you are trying to set up and sweep with mawile turn 1, the sucker punch nerf didn't really affect her at all because all of the ohkos missed are easily migitated with chip damage through attacking and entryhazards, especially spikes.
Edit: the real reason why mawile dropped to ou was the massive power creep and new sucker punch resists like the tapus.
 
Yeah, SR by itself mitigates most of those sucker punch calcs anyway.

Also, I am now uncertain if Ditto should rise given the tier changes. I believe Ditto is now at around the same viability of the mons in the C+ tier (though I still think mega manectric and nihilego should fall), so I think I'm revoking my original proposal.

Also, can someone tell me the niche for mega manectric (over koko)? Is it just for revenge killing Ash-Greninja?
 
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GMars

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Yeah, SR by itself mitigates most of those sucker punch calcs anyway.

Also, I am now uncertain if Ditto should rise given the tier changes. I believe Ditto is at around the same viability of the mons in the C+ tier (though I still think mega manectric and nihilego should fall), so I think I'm revoking my original proposal.

Also, can someone tell me the niche for mega manectric? Is it just for outspeeding Ash-Greninja?
Along with outspeeding Ash-Greninja which is a big draw, Mega Manectric gets simultaneous Fire- and Ice-type coverage, and Intimidate helps it out a bit vs Mega Pinsir. Koko fills many of Mega Manectric's old roles much better, but Manec uses these features to avoid being completely outclassed by it.
 

Martin

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Why are we arguing about Sucker Punch when its current rank takes the Sucker Punch nerf into account already? Like, seriously this thing has been out for months now; the effect of the Sucker Punch nerf isn’t anything new, so why the fuck are you arguing about it as if it has any baring on whether Mawile will change rank?

Anyway, I don’t really like talking about shitmons but something on the current VR sticks out to me a bit as something I don’t really agree with.

Mega Gallade —> Somewhere lower
Realistically speaking, when was the last time anyone has done anything noteworthy with Mega Gallade? Like, I’m not following Snake very closely so if anyone has used it there then sure, but I’d be very surprised if I were to hear someone had. Mega Gallade is just... kinda there. It’s still that ‘mon who sits in an awkward spot between Mega Medi’s absurd firepower and Mega Lop’s absurd speed (this isn’t new, but it does leave it mostly outclassed by both). Combine this with its key niche over Medi (not being owned quite as hard by Mew) being comparatively easy to circumvent nowadays without being forced to swap Medi out for this, and then add defensive Lando climbing in usage into the mix, and Gallade just feels like it is in a really awkward spot atm. It is just considerably less viable than just about everything in B-, and as such it should drop.
 

Slowbro ->C to C-/UR

The rise of Toxapex and both spikes Gren has been hurting Slowbro's viability for some time and I can't recall when was the last time I have seen this been used. It's still able to check threads like Lopunny, Zard X or Zygarde and recover off damage with Slack Off and Regen, but Hippowdon performs this role better, checking the mentioned threads plus Tapu Koko, which constrain teambuilding in any team where Slowbro is involved in.

Mega Slowbro -> B- to C+
All said above, plus Mega-slot opportunity cost. M-Bro at least can take care of physical behemoths like Mega Mawile or Mega Medicham, but does not deserve to share rank with Pokemon like Victini or Quagsire right now.

Tapu Fini -> B+ to B
Ladder's favourite defogger, despise its great typing and support options, Fini has been underwhelming since gen 7 started. Toxapex once again hurts it a lot (Tspikes kicks in before Misty Terrain) the standard balance core (Pex, Steela, M-Saur) can defeat Fini quite easily. Offense pressures this thing a lot, and Misty Terrain actually hinders Fini to be used along Dragon-types who requires Defog support, such as Zard x, Dragonite or Salamence (SR) or Zygarde (T-spikes), which often tends to prefers other defoggers like Latios or Mantine. Offensive sets have been just memes for now. CM is better performed by Tapu Lele, which is actually its least good set. Scarf is ass and Specs is outclassed by Primarina due to access to Psychic, and it just got unranked right now.
 
Why did MegaZam and MegaHera stay in B+? These 2 are a lot worse than the other 3 Megas in the same sub-rank (Lati, Zard and Cham).

In theory, MegaZam and MegaHera work great due to their speed and strength respectively but in practice, they fall short.

Zam is fast but isnt strong enough to kill stuff a mon with that speed is supposed to kill reliably: Swift Swimmers, +1 Zygarde, Gyarados. And it's set-up fodder for bulky sweepers like MegaLati or Magearna. You can be more creative with Knock
Off or Taunt or Calm Mind but eh, not that great/ consistent. That speed is nice for sure and it does hit hard with base 175 Sp.Atk but it's not B+

Hera is strong but again, it struggles to break stuff it's supposed to. Stall has Clef (and Pex and Skarm, kinda) while bulky teams have Lando, Clef (and again, Pex kinda) and pivots to switch in resisted hits like Heatran, Zapdos, Tapu Lele, etc. It's more similar to Zard Y in a sense that they both hit ridiculously hard but their counterplays are common.

Basically, these two are decent but not B+. B or B- seems more suitable
 
Why did MegaZam and MegaHera stay in B+? These 2 are a lot worse than the other 3 Megas in the same sub-rank (Lati, Zard and Cham).

In theory, MegaZam and MegaHera work great due to their speed and strength respectively but in practice, they fall short.

Zam is fast but isnt strong enough to kill stuff a mon with that speed is supposed to kill reliably: Swift Swimmers, +1 Zygarde, Gyarados. And it's set-up fodder for bulky sweepers like MegaLati or Magearna. You can be more creative with Knock
Off or Taunt or Calm Mind but eh, not that great/ consistent. That speed is nice for sure and it does hit hard with base 175 Sp.Atk but it's not B+

Hera is strong but again, it struggles to break stuff it's supposed to. Stall has Clef (and Pex and Skarm, kinda) while bulky teams have Lando, Clef (and again, Pex kinda) and pivots to switch in resisted hits like Heatran, Zapdos, Tapu Lele, etc. It's more similar to Zard Y in a sense that they both hit ridiculously hard but their counterplays are common.

Basically, these two are decent but not B+. B or B- seems more suitable
Honestly in the current metagame, i think alakazam is a better pokemon than char y. With duggy gone, charizard has trouble getting rid of its hardest checks/counters. I agree heracross is ranked too high though.
 

Deleted User 400951

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Honestly in the current metagame, i think alakazam is a better pokemon than char y. With duggy gone, charizard has trouble getting rid of its hardest checks/counters. I agree heracross is ranked too high though.
That doesn't necessarily make Megazam B+ worthy, just because Zard Y is in B doesn't mean Megazam should stay B+. I've been in favor of a Megazam drop for a while now, but I just never got around to making it. It's just frankly not strong enough to break past shit, not fast enough to escape being revenged killed and steels really shit hard on it. It's seen like no tournament play as of late except for maybe one snake game? Other than that it's never really been seen. Definitely for a drop.
Also yeah drop heracross-mega it's not really great in this meta.
I'll also support Slowbro down and Mega Bro down, both are really shit on by the t-spikes meta, I really don't see a reason to use either of them over the other bulky waters at all. Mega Bro I can get, but regular bro is just shit.
 

Leo

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The lower ranks look a lot better now, nice. These are a couple mons I don't quite agree with though

B+ -> A-
Medicham is still one of the most threatening breakers in the tier and I think its drop wasnt appropiate. HJK / Zen / Ice Punch is all it needs to tear apart most defensive cores. Some of the best defensive Pokemon in the meta like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and AV Magearna are free kills for Medi and teams lacking Mew just can't switch into it. Mew itself is falling in usage which further helps it and Medi can even pressure Mew heavily if paired with tspikes (which are also amazing rn). I'm aware that it hasn't been getting much usage as of late but it's still a pretty big threat that needs to be prepared for if you're not building offense, its worst matchup. It doesn't make too much sense to keep it in B+ with Megas like Zam and Heracross, which face even more problems and don't do much outside of their good matchups, whereas Medi can get a kill or 2 even when facing offensive teams it can't do much against.

B- -> C+
This has been brought up already but there was no reasoning behind keeping it in B- as far as I can tell so I'm just gonna bring it up again. Terrak just doesn't do much in the current metagame. Its only viable set, Choice Scarf, is hard to plug onto teams due to the large competition it faces from other Scarfers that either provide more defensive utility like Latios or have some sort of cleaning potential like Tapu Lele. On top of that it pretty much isn't used at all in tours (last phase it was used once and lost) and there's not much it can do that other Scarfers can do better.
edit: seems likes Terrak's best set atm is offensive rocks with rockium but that sets still too team specific to warrant a B- rank, C+'s more fitting

A -> A+
Kartana was brought up for a rise earlier too and although it didn't end up happening I still feel this mon deserves a higher rank. Its SD sets are amazing rn, either using some of the most common defensive mons atm in Ferrothorn and Thapex as set up fodder with Substitute, in my opinion its best set, or providing insane utility for offensive teams with Defog, while keeping its offensive capabilities because 2 Attacks and a Z Crystal is all it needs to break defensive cores. Against Balance and Bulky Offense it can easily guarantee a couple of kills, which makes it easier for the likes of Ash Greninja, Tapu Koko, Lopunny etc to clean up and become more threatening. Scarf Kartana has kinda died down due to the SD hype but it's still a solid revenge killer and cleaner under the right circumstances. It has skyrocketed in usage in snake and has had pretty convincing wins throughout the last couple of phases, which leads me to believe that it's easily one of the dominating threats in the tier and deserves a spot among the likes of Lele, Koko and Ash Gren

That's it let me know what ya'll think bop free A+ Kartana
 
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B -> B+
Before I start my reasonings let me remind you of other similiar B mons: Bisharp, Zard Y and regular Latias.

What you do know:
Hawlucha is one of the scariest sweeper in OU because it bypasses one crucial flaw of any sweeper and that is being faster than any revengekiller. It also lacks weaknesses to priority attacks (ok Mega Pinsir, Weavile has 0 usage) and the defenseboost from Electric Seed makes SDing much easier. It also cannot be revengekilled by Ditto, one of the few tools fat teams have to stop a scary sweeper besides Unaware and Pyukumuku.


What you should know:
a) Do not call Hawlucha weak. Being able to run Adamant without any problems and his STABs having 130 and 110 Basepower means it gets the kills it needs to get. Example calcs to showcase power:
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 193-228 (53.9 - 63.6%)
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 186-219 (51.9 - 61.1%)

b) Being forced to run Koko as a partner is not a constraint on teambuilding. They both have perfect offensive synergy together because Koko invites in many setuptargets for Hawlucha, both are extremly fast and actually have some defensive utility, as well.


What you prob. do not know:
a) New trends such as SubSD Kartana gives Lucha another setuptarget. While Hawlucha always checked Kartana anyway, without Smart Strike you can use +2 Kartana to get off a SD :
+2 188 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 154-182 (47.6 - 56.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 246-291 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
With Drain Punch you can also recover off at least 52% HP back.

b) Poison Jab is an inferor coverageoption to Stone Edge but still viable to smack down Clefable (Id prob. lose all my credit if I really meant this lol).. No of course not Clefable because Acrobatics is stronger. But Poison Jab is nice to oneshot Koko at +2. Especially Roost variants are very hard to wear down because they Roost on forced switches 10 times to avoid losing to Lucha. Luckily, Specs Koko is everywhere and they do not use Roost so you can actually chip down Koko reliably with hazards/Sand and not need Poison Jab. Still an option, though.

c) Toxapex is very very Spdef these days to deal with Specs Gren mostly and this allows you to do massive damage with +2 Acro. This actually can kill if your Spec Gren or even Ferro was able to lay at least 1 Spike. How good Ferro and Specs Gren are these days shouldnt be worth explaining because Spikes are nasty as always.
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 216-255 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 216-255 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes

note: These calcs do not consider Leftovers recovery if Toxapex switches in as you SD
What you hopefully do know:
I am hetero.

What you do not know:
All of the tourplayers who ask for teams or suggestions, successfully use them and give zero credits are lovely people.
 
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Going to nominate MCamel back to B-
Not sure why it dropped when soo many things it forces out are extremely common
List of mons that MCamel can reliably beat in the top tiers:
Toxapex Scald fails to OHKO, MCamel outspeeds with investment
Celesteela Fails to do anything
Ferrothorn Outsped and Power Whip doesn't do a lot
Heatran Earth Power is not strong enough, Substitute can have a chance though
Magearna Does little (apart from freeze hax) while getting OHKO without AV
Tapu Koko (w/o u-turn) Does like nothing
Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch at +2 only has 12.5% (1/8) to OHKO
Scizor Mega Only pivot
Magnezone Can't do much
Tangrowth EQ can't even 2hko at times
Venusaur-Mega Fire blast 2hkos while EQ fails to OHKO, Giga Drain from Offensive set can win though.

Moreover, it's great bulk allows it to survive even powerful super effective hits and KO back, a good example would be Mega-Diancie, whose Earth Power fails to KO.
It also has access to Stealth Rock which benefits from the switches it forces and Nature Power which works especially well with Tapu Koko, since it can lure its checks in and U-Turn out to MCamel who can force them out to a normal check but Nature Power (TBolt) gets a KO on the water types and flying types.[/hide]
 
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Indigo Plateau

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I hope I'm not being too impulsive when I throw these out:

A --> A+

The council was split 50/50 on this, but I definitely think it should happen. Mawile is a fantastic mon which, unlike Medicham, actually has good defensive typing. Most types of playstyles atm heavily struggle to play around Mawile and it's a pain in the ass trying to figure out what moveset this thing is running - AoA is great for everything, SD is a nightmare for bulkier teams, and Sub helps to ease prediction (Sub FP is fire btw gotta get rid of the omnipresent Heatran). Iron Head is ass but if your team is very weak against Venu balance you could even possibly run it lol. Dugtrio getting the boot was a blessing for Mawile, as one of its biggest obstacles is gone and now it can almost beat stall by itself. Bar Heatran being everywhere (although there's nothing in this tier that that pokemon doesn't annoy), a lot of things favor Mawile: Scizor has been on the rise, Kartana (especially Dark-Z) has been on the rise, Zygarde has been falling out of favor (especially band), and Mew, Garchomp, and Suicune are decreasing in usage. Mawile has two great abilities to help its case out. It is definitely a Top 3 mega in the meta atm and if this thing was A when Duggy was around, I'm not sure why with Duggy being gone it shouldn't rise. People were mentioning that its speed and the SP nerf (lol) are holding it back, but Koko is really good atm and Koko + Mawile forms an extremely potent core while helping bring Mawile in. Not to mention that with prior chip, most faster mons are dying to a +2 Sucker anyway. I honestly do think its a bit above the other megas in A, and as so it should be reflected in the rankings.

A --> A+

I really want to hear what people think about this, as I'm still a bit on the fence, but I think Volcarona can afford moving back to A+. If not yet, then definitely in the foreseeable future. Although it fell out of favor quite a while ago, it has recently started to gain traction again. SubSwarm is a fantastic set, being able to set up on the likes of many BO and fatter builds that struggle to break a boosted Sub. It basically autowins vs a lot of common fat builds that star cores like Venu/Celesteela/Clef. At +1, nothing wants to eat a hit as it even does a ton to Pex:

+1 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Toxapex: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volc can also still afford to run Psychium-Z if it wants to for the immediate power and possibly forgo Giga Drain to still hit Heatran and break past Pex. Although Mew and Tangrowth are falling a bit out of favor, mons like Scizor and Magnezone have increased in usage, steels are just everywhere all of which Volc can beat, Zygarde is not seen as much, Kartana is setup bait at neutral, and 101+ scarfers that can reliably revenge kill like Keldeo and Garchomp are dropping in viability. Mega Pinsir is not seen as much due to Diancie/Scizor/Mawile just being much better options for megas atm, and the decline in both webs/veil makes setting up that much easier. Something that I've tried lately is running Koko + Volc to great success, and really the only support required for Volc is usually a remover + something with good synergy that can remove whatever its coverage move doesn't. I would keep writing more about it but I'm short on time and I'm sure everyone knows what this does by now, but I can definitely see this alongside other things in A+ like Lele.


As for the recent noms:

I could get behind a rise for Hawlucha. Paired with Koko and/or Lele, it can find a lot of opportunies to set up on the likes of defensive Lando-T, Ferro, Kartana, Celesteela, hell even Swampert at +1 defense. Robopoke had a good post above about it.

I'm split on Medi. On one hand, yeah it's a good breaker and besides things like bulky psychics nothing's really switching in, but this means that you pass up on using either Diancie, Scizor and its incredible utility, or Mawile. It also has trash typing, making it hard to bring in even with its okay speed.

I've always been a sucker for replays and was going to find some from Snake and include them to back my noms but ran out of time. Oh well.
 

AM

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Do people really think the SubSwarm Set is good? I've played around a bit with it and I just think it's mad gassed for the sake of innovation and exploiting a metagame trend that's probably going to slow down in a couple of weeks if not earlier when people realize its mostly hype. Some of the bulkier builds I see where the arguments come from in terms of the viability of that set and other mons like SubKartana (little hyped to but a bit better in the long run) I think stems from people relying and using fat shit pre-dominantly, which will always have issues with breakers. These sets rely on specific matchups to really do some serious work and in the case of Volcarona and that set the presence of Haze Toxapex (this mon is super cancer btw holy shit I regret downplaying it) alone seems to deter it in the long run. I was a big advocator of Volcarona, at least still am in terms of threat management in the pool of 40+ threats, but it seems way harder to support in the current environment, especially if you're facing an offense which I think is the better archetype with bulky offense coming second in the tier. They pack priority, Greninja, and are normally good at keeping SR on the field making set up a lot more difficult.

Indigo made a valid point above of certain mons seeing less usage but I would argue that some of these like Zygarde and Keldeo are still good and can be utilized on a lot of teams with little effort while providing both offensive and defensive utility for a team. One of the biggest factors on why I don't think Volcarona should rise back anytime soon is the emphasis on hazards in the tier, more specifically the combination of SR + TSpikes thanks to the presence of Toxapex. The tools used to keep hazards on the field is a lot stronger than those to keep them off from what I've noticed. Rapid Spin is kind of dogshit sort of has been with the minor exception of Excadrill on a specific archetype and all the viable defoggers are easy to punish and drain tons of momentum a lot of times. Although the comparison is a weird one, I think it's valid when saying this is a similar issue Charizard Y faces when faced with the Hazard game. It has a lot of great traits on paper but mandates specific support that let's be real, nobody generally wants to use in the first place but are forced to make these two fires work. I think Volcarona is alright in its current placement as of now considering this VR follows the alphabetical approach and not specific rank placement like other VRs like Ubers does.

I agree with robopokes nomination, not only for the points he mentioned, but the fact Hawlucha pairs well with a lot of the top tier mons as an offensive asset. The presence of Hawlucha gives offense a chance to not autolose to weathers which in the past many offenses would sometimes keel over to and the fact Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko are top tier alone while making unburden a breeze to activate helps its case. Its better than most mons in its current rank and the one above it with the arguable exception of Reuni, Gastro, and Excadrill so a move up should be considered.

I feel Mega Mawile is only good on Trick Room to be honest however I haven't seen too many good Mawile teams outside of TR or ones like Veil where the viability is more about something else than Mawile itself to make a proper judgement. Would love to be proven wrong here.

Edit: Oh and Volcanion should be like....waaaay higher. I don't know where exactly but damn it's almost in D rank, what are we doing here?!?
 
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Do people really think the SubSwarm Set is good? I've played around a bit with it and I just think it's mad gassed for the sake of innovation and exploiting a metagame trend that's probably going to slow down in a couple of weeks if not earlier when people realize its mostly hype. Some of the bulkier builds I see where the arguments come from in terms of the viability of that set and other mons like SubKartana (little hyped to but a bit better in the long run) I think stems from people relying and using fat shit pre-dominantly, which will always have issues with breakers. These sets rely on specific matchups to really do some serious work and in the case of Volcarona and that set the presence of Haze Toxapex (this mon is super cancer btw holy shit I regret downplaying it) alone seems to deter it in the long run. I was a big advocator of Volcarona, at least still am in terms of threat management in the pool of 40+ threats, but it seems way harder to support in the current environment, especially if you're facing an offense which I think is the better archetype with bulky offense coming second in the tier. They pack priority, Greninja, and are normally good at keeping SR on the field making set up a lot more difficult.

Indigo made a valid point above of certain mons seeing less usage but I would argue that some of these like Zygarde and Keldeo are still good and can be utilized on a lot of teams with little effort while providing both offensive and defensive utility for a team. One of the biggest factors on why I don't think Volcarona should rise back anytime soon is the emphasis on hazards in the tier, more specifically the combination of SR + TSpikes thanks to the presence of Toxapex. The tools used to keep hazards on the field is a lot stronger than those to keep them off from what I've noticed. Rapid Spin is kind of dogshit sort of has been with the minor exception of Excadrill on a specific archetype and all the viable defoggers are easy to punish and drain tons of momentum a lot of times. Although the comparison is a weird one, I think it's valid when saying this is a similar issue Charizard Y faces when faced with the Hazard game. It has a lot of great traits on paper but mandates specific support that let's be real, nobody generally wants to use in the first place but are forced to make these two fires work. I think Volcarona is alright in its current placement as of now considering this VR follows the alphabetical approach and not specific rank placement like other VRs like Ubers does.

I agree with robopokes nomination, not only for the points he mentioned, but the fact Hawlucha pairs well with a lot of the top tier mons as an offensive asset. The presence of Hawlucha gives offense a chance to not autolose to weathers which in the past many offenses would sometimes keel over to and the fact Tapu Lele and Tapu Koko are top tier alone while making unburden a breeze to activate helps its case. Its better than most mons in its current rank and the one above it with the arguable exception of Reuni, Gastro, and Excadrill so a move up should be considered.

I feel Mega Mawile is only good on Trick Room to be honest however I haven't seen too many good Mawile teams outside of TR or ones like Veil where the viability is more about something else than Mawile itself to make a proper judgement. Would love to be proven wrong here.
You made some great points in your post, But mawile is a Great Wall breaker that can fit on regular teams too, not just TR. In fact, if Mawile was only good on TR, it would not be anywhere near A, it would probably be the same rank as alowak, another trick room staple.
Mawiles fearsomeness is that like mega pinsir, It has like 3 relevant switchins. Outside of Mew, venu, heatran, and like full health lando, Mawile is basically, “who you want to sack,” every time it comes in. Mawile, especially SD variants, are terrifying late game, and unless you have a sucker punch resist, Offense has no real counterplay outside of outplaying sucker punch, which is extremely unreliable. This means Mawile is easily deserving of A rank if not more.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
Prior to the recent VR Update I talked to several VR Council members re: Mega Mawile so I feel obligated to chime in.

The council wasn’t originally split on Mawile and was leaning A+ so I want to talk about why Mawile should stay in A.

Mawile is a good pokemon, and I don’t deny that. Mawile is probably the best Mega Evolution at the moment, although thats not a very impressive achievement. People realizing that Ice Punch is actually a good option has churned a lot of favorable opinion. Honestly, several weeks ago Mawile was probably one of the worse mons in A.

Now it’s one of the better ones. I’d dispute that it’s better than Kartana or even Tyranitar that garnered 26% usage in the latest phase of Smogon Snake Draft, tying with Magearna.

To be A+, a Pokemon should not simply be good, but metagame defining in some sense of the word. While none of A+ is as metagame defining as Landorus-T or Toxapex (Ash Greninja and Magearna come close), all of them define the metagame in a specific way. Magearna Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Heatran basically define what it means to be a fat steel and one of the four is on almost every team, sometimes two. Individually, Magearna is the most consciously prepped for sweeper, Ferrothorn represents the face of Spikes Bulky Offense, a move that is becoming more and more necessary every day. Celesteela never dies and just rolls over teams without a leech seed immunity, being stupidly hard to switch into despite being a defensive mon. Blanket checking dozens of mons never hurts either. The other three residents of A+ are terrifying offensive threats that pick off shit early game and still come back late game to steamroll. Ash Gren and Koko are both stupidly fast, while specs lele hits stupidly hard while still outpacing stuff like defensive landorus-t easily.

My schpiel about A+ aside, going back to Mawile you hopefully see what I do - Mawile is not metagame defining. For what its worth, I think it’s a better Pokemon than Protean Gren and Zygarde but neither of those are benchmarks for A+ anymore. Mawile doesnt clean both early and late game without having to choose like Ash Gren. Mawile struggles with popular trends like Mega Venusaur and Mega Charizard X. It needs Ice punch to touch defensive Landorus-T who is nearing 70% usage in the latest snake phase- many competitors are even dropping Sucker so that Mawile can fit all the coverage (Ciele in olt I believe and ABR somewhere, he mentioned it in pms). Bandtar outspeeds and clicks earthquake, another recent popular trend. Mawile is ridiculously hard to switch in to, but mawile finds it stupidly hard to switch into anything at all either - even the offensive threats in A+ still come in on shit like Ash Gren on Mew or Tapu Koko / Lele on Toxapex. Penultimately, Mawile doesnt show the same consistency of results. Mawile usage is incredibly spotty and results are mixed compared to many mons in A+ that consistently perform in the games they show up in. Finally, Mawiles lack of defensive presence and inability to switch in on shit means you need to carry another steel (Kartana has a similar problem, unless run with something like tang bandtar, but kartana can come in on several physical attacks or grass type moves and scare shit out like a weakened lando trying to get em up or ferrothorn whos complete kart bait, and kart also has 109 speed unlike maw meaning it probably doesnt have to take a second hit if it comes in on something like psyshock locked lele)

TL;DR maw is better than before but simply went from a bottom 3 A Rank to a top 3 one, and doesnt touch the 7 titans in A+ atm viability wise

E: typo
 
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-> C+/C
This Pokemon is honestly terrible, it has trouble breaking through fatter teams without multiple boosts which the meta is currently infested with. Birdspam was originally the reason why it rose, but Birdspam died like week 2 of its popularity, i don't really know why it is still ranked B-.

-> B
While yes Tapu Fini still fits on teams it is mostly on very specific teams that need a status immunity and defog support, however it isnt splashable at all and for the most part outclassed by defoggers such as Mew and Latios. Not much has changed for it but honestly i think its ranked too high initially and don't know why it didnt drop with the last update.

-> C-
With Magearna falling off recently this mon has gotten alot worse with its main niche not being as relevant anymore there is not really an actual reason to run it outside of if ur weak to Volcarona or Kartana and need something to deal with Grass-types.

Definetly going to support the rise of Volcarona to A+ as the meta was very against it at first, but the fall off ScarfChomp and other alike scarfers has really made this thing alot better, besides if the opponent does have a 100+ scarfer u can just decide to fire off an attack and kill it, alot of people seem to forget that you dont need set up to hit hard, it's still an attack coming from a natural base 135 special attack and that doesnt really bounce off unless the target resists it/or ur not called chansey.
 

Indigo Plateau

is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
UU Leader
Do people really think the SubSwarm Set is good? I've played around a bit with it and I just think it's mad gassed for the sake of innovation and exploiting a metagame trend that's probably going to slow down in a couple of weeks if not earlier when people realize its mostly hype. Some of the bulkier builds I see where the arguments come from in terms of the viability of that set and other mons like SubKartana (little hyped to but a bit better in the long run) I think stems from people relying and using fat shit pre-dominantly, which will always have issues with breakers. These sets rely on specific matchups to really do some serious work and in the case of Volcarona and that set the presence of Haze Toxapex (this mon is super cancer btw holy shit I regret downplaying it) alone seems to deter it in the long run. I was a big advocator of Volcarona, at least still am in terms of threat management in the pool of 40+ threats, but it seems way harder to support in the current environment, especially if you're facing an offense which I think is the better archetype with bulky offense coming second in the tier. They pack priority, Greninja, and are normally good at keeping SR on the field making set up a lot more difficult.

Indigo made a valid point above of certain mons seeing less usage but I would argue that some of these like Zygarde and Keldeo are still good and can be utilized on a lot of teams with little effort while providing both offensive and defensive utility for a team. One of the biggest factors on why I don't think Volcarona should rise back anytime soon is the emphasis on hazards in the tier, more specifically the combination of SR + TSpikes thanks to the presence of Toxapex. The tools used to keep hazards on the field is a lot stronger than those to keep them off from what I've noticed. Rapid Spin is kind of dogshit sort of has been with the minor exception of Excadrill on a specific archetype and all the viable defoggers are easy to punish and drain tons of momentum a lot of times. Although the comparison is a weird one, I think it's valid when saying this is a similar issue Charizard Y faces when faced with the Hazard game. It has a lot of great traits on paper but mandates specific support that let's be real, nobody generally wants to use in the first place but are forced to make these two fires work. I think Volcarona is alright in its current placement as of now considering this VR follows the alphabetical approach and not specific rank placement like other VRs like Ubers does.

I feel Mega Mawile is only good on Trick Room to be honest however I haven't seen too many good Mawile teams outside of TR or ones like Veil where the viability is more about something else than Mawile itself to make a proper judgement. Would love to be proven wrong here.
On the Volcarona part, I do see how Toxapex being everywhere is a nuisance for it, but it can still find ways to viably break it, especially since a lot of teams are either using this or Greninja as their reliable answer to it. I think the big part is that in the end, Volcarona can still find a way to adapt its movepool to fit the need of the team and break past what would be opposing counters - think Toxapex and Mantine or whatever else it may be. Hazards have always been something that plagued Volc and you still have viable users of it like Latios, Mew, Scizor (4, 13, and 15 respectively in Snake), and even Mantine has been used to good extent. Don't forget your own Toxapex can absorb TSpikes if need be. Volc and Zard-Y aren't comparable in the fact that Zard-Y can't break past Toxapex period and also doesn't have QD, plus Zard-Y takes up your mega slot which you could use for something like Scizor to help bring Volc in vs the likes of Celesteela or whatever is switching into Zor. Zygarde and Keldeo aren't hard to fit on teams, but Keldeo has been seeing more usage for its CM + Taunt instead of Scarf to have a way to deal with Toxapex and Zygarde really doesn't want to take a Bug Buzz so unless it's at +1 already it's not a reliable answer. I think though that you meant this as a point to me saying that it had less usage overall, not to the Volc point. I quickly found some replays to showcase what I mean, and I'll briefly touch on them below:

blunder vs starmaster

I'll touch on this one a little bit less since blunder did a really good job at touching on this one in his vid, describing his thought process and how to exactly circumnavigate starmaster's Toxapex. This adequately shows how to surpass TSpikes and Rocks continuously being on the field, and with the appropriate timing, blunder's Volcarona was able to break through enough of starmaster's team (even with Papaya and Toxic+TSpikes on Pex) to the point where Celesteela comfortably won.

Updated Kanto vs Kickasser

I like this one bc it showcases SubSwarm Volc, which you mentioned as possibly being a hype thing. To be fair Kickasser didn't have a good mu vs Volc, but this can happen when you have so many other metagame threats to prep for. Kanto did a good job at keeping Spikes and SR off the field with Mew until he was able to Sub on Ferro, which again shows that proper hazard control isn't annoyingly hard, especially with the TTar on Kickasser's team. Haze Pex is a good answer, but like you see in the battle, Sub + QD forces Pex to stay at a reasonable amount (above 63-75) to not die vs Swarm Bug-Z. The crit was unfortunate, but I'm pretty sure Volc went on to win even without the crit as Pex would've been low and Ferro is basically setup fodder whenever it comes in. Basically, you need something else as even Pex won't manage to 100% stop Volc in its track all the time.

Sabella vs Snow

I briefly mentioned that I've been using Koko + Volc to good success, and this replay shows that. After removing rocks, Sabella took advantage of Snow bringing in Tangrowth as the answer to Koko and after he U-Turned on the Mantine, all Volc had to do was get to +1 to be able to break past Mantine with HP Electric. Although it's not the most common of moves, it again shows Volc's versatility as Sabella had both Koko and Mew to be able to deal with the possible Toxapex. After Mantine went down there wasn't anything stopping Sabella from winning.

Again, I mainly brought Volc up because I can see it moving up in the future and I'm glad you threw your input in on it. I really do think that it's a bit underprepared for with people usually slapping on a Toxapex and calling it good. Even stuff like Zard-X takes minimum 56.5% from unboosted Bug-Z (for the life of me I can't find the replay of someone killing a Zard-X with unboosted Bug-Z at half but I remember it happening). I don't think it's enough to say that Toxapex + hazards can keep Volc in check, as a good player will find a way to play around these, which is shown in the replays. Sorry for not being able to look for more n_n

Prior to the recent VR Update I talked to several VR Council members re: Mega Mawile so I feel obligated to chime in.

The council wasn’t originally split on Mawile and was leaning A+ so I want to talk about why Mawile should stay in A.

Mawile is a good pokemon, and I don’t deny that. Mawile is probably the best Mega Evolution at the moment, although thats not a very impressive achievement. People realizing that Ice Punch is actually a good option has churned a lot of favorable opinion. Honestly, several weeks ago Mawile was probably one of the worse mons in A.

Now it’s one of the better ones. I’d dispute that it’s better than Kartana or even Tyranitar that garnered 26% usage in the latest phase of Smogon Snake Draft, tying with Magearna.

My schpiel about A+ aside, going back to Mawile you hopefully see what I do - Mawile is not metagame defining. For what its worth, I think it’s a better Pokemon than Protean Gren and Zygarde but neither of those are benchmarks for A+ anymore. Mawile doesnt clean both early and late game without having to choose like Ash Gren. Mawile struggles with popular trends like Mega Venusaur and Mega Charizard X. It needs Ice punch to touch defensive Landorus-T who is nearing 70% usage in the latest snake phase- many competitors are even dropping Sucker so that Mawile can fit all the coverage (Ciele in olt I believe and ABR somewhere, he mentioned it in pms). Bandtar outspeeds and clicks earthquake, another recent popular trend. Mawile is ridiculously hard to switch in to, but mawile finds it stupidly hard to switch into anything at all either - even the offensive threats in A+ still come in on shit like Ash Gren on Mew or Tapu Koko / Lele on Toxapex. Penultimately, Mawile doesnt show the same consistency of results. Mawile usage is incredibly spotty and results are mixed compared to many mons in A+ that consistently perform in the games they show up in. Finally, Mawiles lack of defensive presence and inability to switch in on shit means you need to carry another steel (Kartana has a similar problem, unless run with something like tang bandtar, but kartana can come in on several physical attacks or grass type moves and scare shit out like a weakened lando trying to get em up or ferrothorn whos complete kart bait, and kart also has 109 speed unlike maw meaning it probably doesnt have to take a second hit if it comes in on something like psyshock locked lele)

TL;DR maw is better than before but simply went from a bottom 3 A Rank to a top 3 one, and doesnt touch the 7 titans in A+ atm viability wise

E: typo
I see your point with the rest of the mons in A+, but I also don't think that Mawile sitting in the same rank as the two megas and several pokemon that it's better than is fair either. To briefly hit on your last points - Mawile by no means holds a ton of defensive utility but it's not utter deadweight either. Having an extra steel is never a bad thing and yes, Kart can switch in to things like Ferro and defensive Lando, but Mawile can also switch into things like Clef, Ferro, get a Sub up vs Pex, Latios, and defensive Scizor (if fire fang); not to mention that you always have the option of running U-Turn support on things like Koko alongside it. Defensive Lando dies with Rocks up to a PR + Sucker if it switches in on regular Mawile with Hyper Cutter, and Zard-X also dies with one layer of Spikes to a +2 SP meaning it's not a safe answer unless they're both in at the same time. You can't really compare Ash-Gren's cleaning capabilities to Mawile as those are unparalleled and not comparable to any other mon. I'm not sure what recent trends have made Mawile worse after Duggy got the boot - you only mentioned Venusaur and Zard-X but again, Iron Head or simple SD Knock can break past Venusaur without HP Fire and Zard-X can't beat it unless it comes in vs unboosted Maw. Lando-T has always been popular so that really isn't recent and BandTar is almost always clicking its stab (bar vs Heatran and Mage off the top of my head), so if anything that benefits Maw. Way back in this thread Bludz mentioned that comparing a mon to the other mons in its ranking tier is important, and at the end of the day I personally think that Mawile would be a better fit at the bottom of A+ since it's better than almost everything else in A.

I have some Maw replays (there's two where it breaks past Venusaur each time, once with SD and once with Iron Head) but I'll edit those in later if I find the time. It was a bit hard to find ones where Play Rough or Fire Fang weren't missing every time they were used throughout the battle which obviously affected the battle lol.
 

Swaqfeq

I COULD BE BANNED!
i'd like to nom volcanion up from C to C+, maybe even higher in the future.

volcanion has seen little usage in general on ladder and in tours thus far in gen7 and i think, honestly, thats due to people forgetting it exists. i've used a team with sub + 3 atks volcanion on ladder a LOT over the past few weeks and not only has volcanion put in a lot of work, its done so in a way that a lot of the time causes opponents to forfeit or get wrecked just trying to break volcanions sub. it quite literally 6-0's the cele / clef / pex teams that are quiet common, and when paired up with lele/diancie in my case, finishes stall of nicely once chansey dies since clefable runs max/near max def now.

some replays demonstrating what it does:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-649145729
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-648357137 not a whole lot but still subs up and gets a couple hits off
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-647366746 volc goin in on stall after chansey died :^)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-646491571 kinda just gettin up subs and forcing switches since pex is the go to water switchin
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-642834812 beautiful work early game by volc
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-640984658 more annoyance by volc

these are just some replays of volc doin well. more can be found by scouring my replays as i save most matches. this particular team is yet to lose vs stall, 11-0 i think. much of that is due to volcs pressure once chansey is weak or dead. anyway, hopefully this shows just how deadly volc can be to balance in particular as well as not being dead weight vs offense due to decent natural bulk and its success vs stall with counters (chansey) being weakened or removed.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
volcanion has seen little usage...in tours thus far in gen7
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325005
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325442
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-649134437
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ubers-317149

six different snake games featured volcanion - I wouldn't say thats too shabby (higher than tapu fini or mimikyu !) , although they all feature the same team, i could only find four replays but usage stats say six.

Definitely support a rise though, sub volcanion is a god tier set that breaks pex steela well enough

Thanks to ou c&c discord for the replays.
 
On the mawile topic I feel like mawile is very good as it kinda has no switch ins depending on coverage which is obviously good. While I agree it's better than protean gren It has tons of checks which forces a switch. I guess that's why you have 5 other mons. And it's meh bulk gives a defensive typing a hard time taking neutral hits. Another thing it isn't meta defining. Metagame trends like mega Venu and mega zard x gives it a hard time (if it wants to run SD iron head your crazy but if mega Venu matters that much sure). And Zard x checking it easily gives it a hard time.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Heracross-Mega to the shadow realm

Why. The. Actual. Fuck. Is. This. Still. B+.

Seeing this in the same rank as Zard X and Medi-Mega is just wrong. It was ranked highly for defensive merit when that died away with CB Zygarde. Now it really doesn't have much. Now since that's no longer enough to redeem its mediocre speed, you've got an outclassed breaker on your hands. Bug/Fighting is honestly not that hot in this metagame and it takes a valuable mega slot that's better given to the aforementioned Zard X and Medicham-Mega. I see no reason why to keep it this high. I'm definitely for a drop to at least B.

Bisharp down

Webs died a long time ago, and it's not good anywhere else. In addition, lele just ruins it. It's also a steel with almost no defensive utility that a steel should have.

Dragonite down to C+/C

Birdspam is dead, and Nite with it. It never fit anywhere else.

Mimikyu to C+

Hyper offense isn't as dominating as it once was, and outside of it Mimik is legit useless.

Slowbro to UR

Why in hell would I ever use this? T spikes shits on it, rising Koko shits on it, it's just really outclassed by any other bulky water really.

Mega Bro to C

This is also legit garbage. In addition to T spikes, Koko and competition as a bulky water, it also faces huge competition for a Mega because it's frankly not good. It's just really easy to wear down and is rendered useless by Toxic.

Megazam to B

I made this nom earlier, but essentially it's just not been B+ material for a while now. It's not fast enough to escape being revenged by most scarf users, not strong enough to break shit and is just honestly really not that good. I wouldn't call psyspam too great either. It's not really made very many appearances in tours for a good while now. B+ is too high.

Alright yeah Gary was right.
 
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