(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

Codraroll

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Yes. I'm not arguing against the encounter rates being different (or, say, using the way encounter tables vary from patch to patch within a route to fix this issue). You have to consider which parts of the game are under the purview of the world (and therefore not at the discretion of the developers) and which parts are under the purview of the game-design (and therefore completely at their discretion). I'm all for finding ways to make the gameplay experience better, smoother, more convenient, etc., while working within that framework. The DexNav was a great example of how to do that (and if it had returned in SM, there would probably be many fewer complaints about these issues).
I agree that the lore has to be considered a lot when designing the game and creating encounter tables, but I think we differ on what has to get priority when the game is created. "Yungoos/Gumshoos are everywhere because lore says they are invasive species" makes sense on its own, but if implementing that lore leads to bad game design and is detrimental to the playing experience, then one has written a bad piece of lore. Besides, lore can easily be changed if done at an early enough point in the process. Yungoos/Gumshoos had not been established in the franchise before Sun and Moon, so nothing would be ruined by making them less common in those games - the lore could have been changed to reflect that.

It would perhaps attract some more ire if these Pokémon were nowhere to be found in a later Alola game, since Sun/Moon established that they are very common, but in Sun and Moon one could have given these Pokémon RS-Chimecho levels of rarity and changed the lore accordingly, and nobody would have noticed anything. Or at least removed them from Poni Island entirely, just adding a bit of NPC dialogue saying that the ranger corps keeps them away from the island, or that the native species on Poni are so powerful that Gumshoos can't get a foothold, or that strong currents and winds makes it very hard for species to emigrate between the different islands. Point is, it is an easy issue to address without lore getting in the way, especially so when the lore is introduced at the same time as the game is designed.

Besides, I'd argue that making the early-game Pokémon so overwhelmingly common is objectively bad game design, and that lore at best is a patch trying to fix the players' perception of the problem, rather than an attempt to address it. "Yes, these Pokémon are ultra-common, but... uhh... Oh, look at their Pokédex entries! They are invasive! There, now it makes perfect sense! It's not because we are lazy, we swear! We had perfectly good reasons for doing it this way, and there was nothing we could have done to change it for the better!"

As Taistelu said, the encounter tables is an experience-breakingly bad problem with a very easy fix. Editing Pokémon encounter tables is a non-issue when it comes to resource use in the design process. Unless the code is amazingly poorly organized, they would literally have had to change single numbers in a text file. If the Yungoos/Pikipek/Wingull problem had been addressed at any stage in the design process, it could have been fixed by one intern in half a day. I can't imagine a serious developer or game director objecting to this fix because of what the lore says. "Sure, it makes players really frustrated, and it causes some Pokémon to be prohibitively hard to find, but it is justified by the Pokédex entries!".

World-building is important, sure, and the way the world is built will affect game design elements. But when the relevant parts of the world are built at the same time as the game is designed, the designers are not tied down by the lore. If an aspect of the game design doesn't work, and no existing/established lore is sharply contradicted, then new lore should be changed to suit game design. The lore framework is flexible until the game is fully finished, at which point it gets harder as fans read and accept it, and expect future continuity/consistency. An eventual third version of the Alola games will have to address an eventual absence of hyper-common Sun/Moon Pokémon, but in the original games, this could and should have been changed, with no need to explain away anything.
 

Pikachu315111

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Actually, something else to confound Gumshoos, Rattata, and Wingull being common and island dexes sharing Pokemon: Oricorio. The point of Orocorio is to show the concept of polymorphism, each Oricorio adapted to the island they live on. So why does Oricorio, a Pokemon WHO CAN FLY, have a different form for each island when each island has the Gumshoos, Rattata, and Wingull family remain the same (and some island dexes share Pokemon)?
 

MZ

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Aside from Gumshoos and Pelipper being annoyingly common being bad for a general gameplay sense, they really hurt thematically. I dont mean lore-wise because they go with the dex entries, I mean for trying to hype up any sort of stakes. To be so late in the game and find that Poni Wilds is mostly Gumshoos, Vast Poni Canyon is mostly Boldore/Golbat/Carbink, and Mt. Lanakila is mostly Snorunt and Alolan Vulpix really kills the mood when you know there's so many more cool things. Compare this to BW2, where the route before has mienfoo/gligar/bouffalant/sawk or throh primarily and its victory road with, depending on the area, Banette/Golurk/Druddigon/Gurdurr most commonly, and even if the grassy area having mostly petlil/cottonee sorta ruins that that's still way better than gumshoos. It just sorta ruins that feeling of big progression when wow, most of the mons running around are kinda shit anyway and way less interesting than other routes.

E: not to mention you can find granbull and gastrodon without their prevos being available anywhere else so they clearly wanted to have some cooler stuff available, and you know that if this were somebody's romhack they would've slapped in like manectric/heatmor/ferroseed/nidorino to make the area cooler (just using poni wilds as an example). Actually, that doesn't sound half bad for something I just made up
 
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I agree that the lore has to be considered a lot when designing the game and creating encounter tables, but I think we differ on what has to get priority when the game is created.
We do. I view the "lore" (and I still disagree with calling a lot of this stuff that) as much less arbitrary than you do, but I agree that certain things can be changed to accommodate smoother gameplay. I'm sure we can agree that Game Freak's management of the encounter tables is most likely just laziness/sloppiness and not anything to do with their (probably nonexistent) concern for the coherence of the world (so even if the species distribution is "correct," it's in place for incorrect reasons anyway). Many of these things relate to fundamental issues with the Pokemon world, the relation between its species and real-life inspirations, and so on, and delving into those issues would probably reveal that it's all (unfortunately) an incoherent mess anyway.

Obviously I'm much more focused on and pedantic about it, but I will say that every fan's ability to enjoy a game(/whatever) does depend on the world-building more than they may always realize. Everyone has a different threshold past which it'll be noticeably difficult for them to suspend disbelief, but we all have it -- and even if the absence of more thorough and coherent world-building doesn't consciously detract from people's experience, many would probably find themselves having a better one if it were present ("wow, the attention-to-detail in how the species are distributed in subtly different environments makes this game feel so immersive," whatever). "Jumping the shark" is a universally understood concept for a reason, and I think aspects of the logic that leads to those "jump the shark" moments is often present in smaller ways elsewhere and should be guarded against.

Ultimately, games are basically just lines of code and math, channeled through concepts and worlds people find compelling. I think those things should be crafted as thoroughly as possible, whether in games or TV or whatever.
 
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Actually, something else to confound Gumshoos, Rattata, and Wingull being common and island dexes sharing Pokemon: Oricorio. The point of Orocorio is to show the concept of polymorphism, each Oricorio adapted to the island they live on. So why does Oricorio, a Pokemon WHO CAN FLY, have a different form for each island when each island has the Gumshoos, Rattata, and Wingull family remain the same (and some island dexes share Pokemon)?
Considering just giving an Oricorio some Nectar changes their form... the flowers they feed on must have a really strong effect.
 
If lore gets in the way of the gameplay, the lore should be changed. It shouldn't have priority, plain and simple - Pokémon isn't exactly some artsy game like Metal Gear or Majora's Mask, even if SM's plot was better than the previous titles. Lore is a fun addition to look into but shouldn't hamper the gameplay aspect, and to argue otherwise is absurd and is to take the game far too seriously.
 

Pikachu315111

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Considering just giving an Oricorio some Nectar changes their form... the flowers they feed on must have a really strong effect.
Exactly, and each island has its own species of flower. And if the flowers alone is that potent to cause a Species to diverge into different forms, a species that is able to fly to different islands if it felt like it, what about the Pokemon who are landlocked? Nothing in the different islands environment cause any of the Yungoos, Alolan Ratatta, Wingull, and those few Pokemon who share a dex entry to be different/less common/not be on that island?

If lore gets in the way of the gameplay, the lore should be changed. It shouldn't have priority, plain and simple - Pokémon isn't exactly some artsy game like Metal Gear or Majora's Mask, even if SM's plot was better than the previous titles. Lore is a fun addition to look into but shouldn't hamper the gameplay aspect, and to argue otherwise is absurd and is to take the game far too seriously.
Lore and gameplay should ideally work together. First comes gameplay, and then lore is used to explain gameplay. But that doesn't mean you can't do it the opposite way, set up the lore and then develop gameplay around it. Now this can sometimes cause story and gameplay segregation, but games is a unique media where, if done right, that can be acceptable and maybe wrote around itself.
 
Exactly, and each island has its own species of flower. And if the flowers alone is that potent to cause a Species to diverge into different forms, a species that is able to fly to different islands if it felt like it, what about the Pokemon who are landlocked? Nothing in the different islands environment cause any of the Yungoos, Alolan Ratatta, Wingull, and those few Pokemon who share a dex entry to be different/less common/not be on that island?



Lore and gameplay should ideally work together. First comes gameplay, and then lore is used to explain gameplay. But that doesn't mean you can't do it the opposite way, set up the lore and then develop gameplay around it. Now this can sometimes cause story and gameplay segregation, but games is a unique media where, if done right, that can be acceptable and maybe wrote around itself.
True, I simply meant it like "If Lore dictates something negative in gameplay, it should be changed rather than us rolling over and accepting it".
 
Why does Marowak-A learn Shadow Bone the level before it evolves? No STAB until Level 53 unless you like the Flame Charge TM. You only get good STABs at the Elite 4. I knew Marowak-A was kind of memetic with it's STABs but I didn't realise it was this bad.

This has left me salty on an in game run.
 

Pikachu315111

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Why does Marowak-A learn Shadow Bone the level before it evolves? No STAB until Level 53 unless you like the Flame Charge TM. You only get good STABs at the Elite 4. I knew Marowak-A was kind of memetic with it's STABs but I didn't realise it was this bad.

This has left me salty on an in game run.
Odd, you'd think it would learn Shadow Bone upon evolving like how Alolan Raichu learns Psychic upon evolving.
 
Why does Marowak-A learn Shadow Bone the level before it evolves? No STAB until Level 53 unless you like the Flame Charge TM. You only get good STABs at the Elite 4. I knew Marowak-A was kind of memetic with it's STABs but I didn't realise it was this bad.

This has left me salty on an in game run.
Especially when you take into account that it's its signature move, and that Evolution Moves were introduced. It's near top-level trolling.
 
I'm sure this has been said several times in this thread already, but after an 8 hour grind just trying to get a gale wings fletchling, I just have to say/rant....

screw Alola's encounter system - all of it. every little goshdarned change they made seems constructed to irritate

we start with every new pokemon they advertised and sold themselves on being next to impossible to actually find; mimikyu, stufful, type-null, a salandit that can actually evolve, all of them buried under a never-ending barrage of 'stache-ata and yungoos and pikipek (or larger versions) or just forced into post game to make room for the trash no-one wanted on island one, to the extent this game does not at all feel like it has the largest pre-game pokedex to date. not at all. it feels tiny, because every route has the exact same encounters - they never get less common as the game goes on, so all the cool new stuff is edged out.

then to add to the frustration, we have the calling mechanics; so that 5% encounter pokemon, has an at max 50% chance to call another 5% encounter pokemon as the only means to get a lot of the new entries. not only that, but calling is a free action for the enemy pokemon, so if your in a decently leveled area you don't always have the luxury of eating attacks each turn while trying not to kill the friendless muppet you need to call in the next thing; not an issue post game, but quite frustrating in the initial run, and you can't even status lock the opposing pokemon to reduce their turns and help yourself out (probably bad luck, but it even feels like volatile status locks it off too, as well as burn/paralyze/poison, as I've not see an infatuated/taunted/encored pokemon call either). Heck, sometimes they'll then call only when you don't want them too, and fights can drag on to insane lengths because you forgot to spray a repel...

then this nightmare mechanic is used to gate of hidden abilities in a double kick to the player; in many cases, hidden abilities are needed for the pokemon to perform to it's fullest, and now they're a major grind to get a single one, with so much luck dependancies - I just wanted a gale wings fletchling, it's one of my favourite pokemon and I though it'd be nice to have during the main game, but after 8 hours I've yet to see one and the grind has seriously killed any love or passion I had to finish the game. because I nearly lost, with my post aether paradise team, to fletchlings just from fighting so many and not being able to end them. because I hunted one for 8 hours

I loathe the changes to fishing, because it seems every time I bring a fishing spot onto the screen is just as the bubbles end, leaving me with just magikarp on every cast - and I'm aware there are a lot of interesting fish pokemon this time, but all I see is magikarps or nothing as nothing ever bubbles when I get close

in older editions, gift pokemon felt special - they where rare, or somewhat unique, or just gotten a lot earlier; this time, it feels like every trade/gift in game is obtained on the same route as it's wild counterpart, or even later. eevee, bounsweet, machop, poliwhirl etc are all found in the exact same place as the npc you can get them off, without stupid nicknames or the like. yet type-null, this pokemon worked into the games lore and plot... is gated off to post game. heck, I honestly expected to just start running into toracats and the like after every other event pokemon being just commonplace.

plus, screw divebombing fearows whenever I stand near a tree. you made pretty environments, don't make me regret going near them

so yeah, I think I've found the pokemon game I'm not going to finish. I've helped lusamine with her jellyfish problem, but as a collector and someone who loved pokemon for the range of critters to catch... I'm done. this change has beat me. and I just can't understand why they would make it like this

also, on an unrelated note... I wish they'd used fatter NPCs to block off paths. when I can clearly fit around them (or in the case of the sudowoodoo kid, fit through the path if he wasn't there to tell me the sudowoodoo had blocked it) it's irritating. Also, I have a tauros that can smash rocks, you'd think they'd get out of the way...
 
I'm sure this has been said several times in this thread already, but after an 8 hour grind just trying to get a gale wings fletchling, I just have to say/rant....

screw Alola's encounter system - all of it. every little goshdarned change they made seems constructed to irritate

we start with every new pokemon they advertised and sold themselves on being next to impossible to actually find; mimikyu, stufful, type-null, a salandit that can actually evolve, all of them buried under a never-ending barrage of 'stache-ata and yungoos and pikipek (or larger versions) or just forced into post game to make room for the trash no-one wanted on island one, to the extent this game does not at all feel like it has the largest pre-game pokedex to date. not at all. it feels tiny, because every route has the exact same encounters - they never get less common as the game goes on, so all the cool new stuff is edged out.

then to add to the frustration, we have the calling mechanics; so that 5% encounter pokemon, has an at max 50% chance to call another 5% encounter pokemon as the only means to get a lot of the new entries. not only that, but calling is a free action for the enemy pokemon, so if your in a decently leveled area you don't always have the luxury of eating attacks each turn while trying not to kill the friendless muppet you need to call in the next thing; not an issue post game, but quite frustrating in the initial run, and you can't even status lock the opposing pokemon to reduce their turns and help yourself out (probably bad luck, but it even feels like volatile status locks it off too, as well as burn/paralyze/poison, as I've not see an infatuated/taunted/encored pokemon call either). Heck, sometimes they'll then call only when you don't want them too, and fights can drag on to insane lengths because you forgot to spray a repel...

then this nightmare mechanic is used to gate of hidden abilities in a double kick to the player; in many cases, hidden abilities are needed for the pokemon to perform to it's fullest, and now they're a major grind to get a single one, with so much luck dependancies - I just wanted a gale wings fletchling, it's one of my favourite pokemon and I though it'd be nice to have during the main game, but after 8 hours I've yet to see one and the grind has seriously killed any love or passion I had to finish the game. because I nearly lost, with my post aether paradise team, to fletchlings just from fighting so many and not being able to end them. because I hunted one for 8 hours

I loathe the changes to fishing, because it seems every time I bring a fishing spot onto the screen is just as the bubbles end, leaving me with just magikarp on every cast - and I'm aware there are a lot of interesting fish pokemon this time, but all I see is magikarps or nothing as nothing ever bubbles when I get close

in older editions, gift pokemon felt special - they where rare, or somewhat unique, or just gotten a lot earlier; this time, it feels like every trade/gift in game is obtained on the same route as it's wild counterpart, or even later. eevee, bounsweet, machop, poliwhirl etc are all found in the exact same place as the npc you can get them off, without stupid nicknames or the like. yet type-null, this pokemon worked into the games lore and plot... is gated off to post game. heck, I honestly expected to just start running into toracats and the like after every other event pokemon being just commonplace.

plus, screw divebombing fearows whenever I stand near a tree. you made pretty environments, don't make me regret going near them

so yeah, I think I've found the pokemon game I'm not going to finish. I've helped lusamine with her jellyfish problem, but as a collector and someone who loved pokemon for the range of critters to catch... I'm done. this change has beat me. and I just can't understand why they would make it like this

also, on an unrelated note... I wish they'd used fatter NPCs to block off paths. when I can clearly fit around them (or in the case of the sudowoodoo kid, fit through the path if he wasn't there to tell me the sudowoodoo had blocked it) it's irritating. Also, I have a tauros that can smash rocks, you'd think they'd get out of the way...
You can't run to a bubbling spot or use Sharpedo Jet... not that it matters much because it's still 50% Magikarp, but now 10% something actually interesting. And Mareanie is a triple kick, as while Merciless can be interesting... Toxapex really wants that Regenerator. And how do you get Mareanie? Why, as a rare SOS call from the already rare Corsola, of course! And they attack Corsola, and don't SOS call themselves! Then there's Geodude. Want one with Galvanize? Hope you've got something with Damp, because they've got Self-Destruct!

Though to be fair, Bounsweet isn't found in the wild until Lush Jungle - but only in the western part of the area - and the trade Bounsweet is Adamant with flawless Attack. (not sure if the other stats fluctuate, or if it always has 0 IV in HP) And getting a free Eevee is hardly a bad thing when you consider how many Eeveelutions there are.
 
When you have non-linear Pokemon games, you get terrible level curves like in Gen 1 and Kanto in Gen 2...
That could be solved with some kind of flag that adds levels depending on how many badges/whatever-it-is you have.

Something like "Take the map's Wild Pokemon encounter tables. If the player has 5 badges, add 3 to each level.", same with trainers.

(Just without changing moves on those that have specific movesets)
 
Honestly, only the last three games really felt truly linear. Gen III and Gen IV games at least hid the linearity a bit there. There were enough areas that were off the beaten path and had you backtracking enough that there was an illusion of non-linearity.

I can add on to this thing about linearity - the illusion of non-linearity can still make the game feel less like it was railroading you. Like, look at Diamond and Pearl. You wanted to go north through Route 210, but you see these bunch of Psyducks in your way. You theorize that you have to help the Psyducks in order to get by so you make your way around, grab the SecretPotion, and heal them. Hell, even HMs can help with that by blocking certain routes until you get the ability to muscle past the blocades. At the very least, both situations felt like you were actually pushing through the barriers yourself and the only way you were able to progress forward was thanks to the detour you took to grab the item you need.

This felt different than in Gen 5, 6, and 7 games. They really did feel like they were railroading you. Gen 5 games were the worst. The map was super linear in Black and White and they gave you literally the stupidest possible excuses for why you can't continue in a specific direction. And to add on to that, you had no "control" over most of these obstacles. You were just told to "come back later" and it always turned out that after beating the Gym Leader or after beating the Elite Four, whatever was blocking your path suddenly just disappears. While Gen VII was even more blatant and told you that you couldn't go somewhere unless you beat the trial, it actually felt better for me. At least they blatantly explained that and you, as a character, knew what needed to get done to progress (unlike the "Just wait around" for most of Gen V)
 
Honestly, only the last three games really felt truly linear. Gen III and Gen IV games at least hid the linearity a bit there. There were enough areas that were off the beaten path and had you backtracking enough that there was an illusion of non-linearity.

I can add on to this thing about linearity - the illusion of non-linearity can still make the game feel less like it was railroading you. Like, look at Diamond and Pearl. You wanted to go north through Route 210, but you see these bunch of Psyducks in your way. You theorize that you have to help the Psyducks in order to get by so you make your way around, grab the SecretPotion, and heal them. Hell, even HMs can help with that by blocking certain routes until you get the ability to muscle past the blocades. At the very least, both situations felt like you were actually pushing through the barriers yourself and the only way you were able to progress forward was thanks to the detour you took to grab the item you need.

This felt different than in Gen 5, 6, and 7 games. They really did feel like they were railroading you. Gen 5 games were the worst. The map was super linear in Black and White and they gave you literally the stupidest possible excuses for why you can't continue in a specific direction. And to add on to that, you had no "control" over most of these obstacles. You were just told to "come back later" and it always turned out that after beating the Gym Leader or after beating the Elite Four, whatever was blocking your path suddenly just disappears. While Gen VII was even more blatant and told you that you couldn't go somewhere unless you beat the trial, it actually felt better for me. At least they blatantly explained that and you, as a character, knew what needed to get done to progress (unlike the "Just wait around" for most of Gen V)
I think they simply stopped making up excuses. The dancing men blocking the White Forest/Black City in BW2 is the ultimate example in that they simply don't bother making roadblocks believable.
 
Welcome to JRPGs.

Seriously it's not even that big of a deal. Every Pokémon game is linear, it's just that some are better at hiding it than others.
Well then they should go back to hiding it better. In Kanto you can do the gyms in crazy orders, in Johto there were at least 3 gyms you could do in any order, in Sinnoh you could fight Crasher Wake or Maylene first. Even if it's little it makes the player feel that it's their journey, and not a theme park ride on rails.
 
I think they simply stopped making up excuses. The dancing men blocking the White Forest/Black City in BW2 is the ultimate example in that they simply don't bother making roadblocks believable.
There were a lot in Black and White where the guy standing in front of it pretty much told you "Go fight the Gym Leader. Things should be done by then."
 
I find trying to make Pokemon at the Pokepelago stay more annoying then the linear storyline, seems more luck then choice.
 

MZ

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Bw2 roadblocks are bad because it's not you affecting the world. Every place you're blocked from has an arbitrary reason, dancers are worst but by no means the only dumb roadblock. It's not a coincidence that we didn't have bad roadblocks in early games because those were HMs. That's how they kept you from movoing on, and because progression was tied to gyms it felt like a natural way of opening up areas. Since BW they've slowly been phazing HMs out in favor of "my stoutland is arbitrarily standing here", and that's why this is becoming a problem.
 

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