CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion

[Buffalo_Wings]

Then there is absolutely no point in having CAP9 on your team if you're going to deal with Leech Seed with Heatran. If Heatran is going to Stop the Secondary better than our CAP, then again, we didn't learn anything.

Yeah I thought about that too, and by the way I'm not against you or anything dude. But if it wasn't for our CAP then Heatran wouldn't have stopped the secondary, as celebi would have just leech seeded on the switch as normal. And this is only for when you're predicting a grass knot (or whatever). If you predict leech seed, or another secondary move thats when you switch in CAP9 to punish them. And I guess that punishment will deter them from using a secondary move in the future.

 

[Pink]

I was giving Dark + Pursuit the benefit of the doubt with trick, considering the whole point many people fought so hard for Dark type was the fact that a STAB pursuit was so valuable. Something I fought against.

And yes, there is movepool/ability. We can give it aromatherapy. We can give it Rapid Spin. We can give it Cloud Nine. We can give it Vital Sprirt. We could give a slew of things that don't do anything at all. How is having a sleep absorber stopping sleep? We send in CAP9 once to absorb a spore, our opponent learns, out plays us to kill CAP9 and is free to sleep some one else. Or, we give it Aromatherapy, which would make absolutely no sense on our CAP, and shouldn't even be a consideration. Cloud nine does nothing. It stops the weather on our CAP alone. Not a very big deterrent to not use weather. Especially when he's weak to... Hail teams... Rain teams... and Sun teams. So they don't get a boost in their attacking power. It's still super effective and (usually) STABed. Everything we could give it stop the secondary on CAP9 alone. It just doesn't make sense to limit him even more by making him an attacking Pokemon. At least if he's defensive we can try to extend those benefits to our whole team.

EDIT: (A response to a deleted post)
With the typing that was chosen, I can't help but feel the concept is going to be a waste because of the inability to stop really any secondary right now. However, I could very well be wrong, and I'm just hoping someone can give me a better reason to believe offensive will be a good choice other than the fact we get Pursuit and EQ STAB.

 

[Raikizen]

I was giving Dark + Pursuit the benefit of the doubt with trick, considering the whole point many people fought so hard for Dark type was the fact that a STAB pursuit was so valuable. Something I fought against.

And yes, there is movepool/ability. We can give it aromatherapy. We can give it Rapid Spin. We can give it Cloud Nine. We can give it Vital Sprirt. We could give a slew of things that don't do anything at all. How is having a sleep absorber stopping sleep? We send in CAP9 once to absorb a spore, our opponent learns, out plays us to kill CAP9 and is free to sleep some one else. Or, we give it Aromatherapy, which would make absolutely no sense on our CAP, and shouldn't even be a consideration. Cloud nine does nothing. It stops the weather on our CAP alone. Not a very big deterrent to not use weather. Especially when he's weak to... Hail teams... Rain teams... and Sun teams. So they don't get a boost in their attacking power. It's still super effective and (usually) STABed. Everything we could give it stop the secondary on CAP9 alone. It just doesn't make sense to limit him even more by making him an attacking Pokemon. At least if he's defensive we can try to extend those benefits to our whole team.

EDIT: (A response to a deleted post)
With the typing that was chosen, I can't help but feel the concept is going to be a waste because of the inability to stop really any secondary right now. However, I could very well be wrong, and I'm just hoping someone can give me a better reason to believe offensive will be a good choice other than the fact we get Pursuit and EQ STAB.

While we may not agree on "Somewhat Offensive" or "Somewhat Defensive", we can at least agree that "All out offense" is a bad way to go with this CAP. He is almost already guaranteed to lose to Celebi, as honestly, unless you give it a base attack stat of somewhere near Ramparados, and speed over 100, then he will not be able to OHKO defensive varients and will most likely lose to a Grass Knot/Leaf Storm. Otherwise, it could easily just shrug off any damage you inflicted and then continue doing whatever it was doing.

 

[Objection]

While we may not agree on "Somewhat Offensive" or "Somewhat Defensive", we can at least agree that "All out offense" is a bad way to go with this CAP. He is almost already guaranteed to lose to Celebi, as honestly, unless you give it a base attack stat of somewhere near Ramparados, and speed over 100, then he will not be able to OHKO defensive varients and will most likely lose to a Grass Knot/Leaf Storm. Otherwise, it could easily just shrug off any damage you inflicted and then continue doing whatever it was doing.

Call me a noob, but why couldn't we give CAP9 an attack stat near Rampardos' and base speed over 100?

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

^'Cause otherwise we'll need a negative ability or something in order to balance it out

 

[Deucalion2]

I think we're going about this wrong, but anyway. We're not creating something which actively punishes the use of secondary damage moves, but rather punishes the users of said secondary damage moves. It may seem subtle, but there is a difference. If later on in the CaP we create a a secondary damage abuser, if this CaP continues like this, it will probably be uneffective against it, because all we're doing is going "lots of Trick users are Psychic, lets give this thing Dark type and offensive to hit them". What happens to the non-Psychic trick users, etc?

The way I think we should have gone about this is using things which actively punish the use of secondary moves, regardless of the user, and turn them on their heads. This would be done through the use of abilities like Guts, or perhaps Klutz to backfire Tricksters with stuff. Because of that, I think this Pokemon should be Somewhat Defensive, capable of switching in repeatedly, then relying on whatever abilites/movepool it has to completely turn the tables on secondary moves. It also prevents it from just being used arbitrarily as a sweeper, which I bet you will happen to this CaP. Much like Kitsunoh, we're missing the point and instead just creating Sweeper X which happens to possibly fulfill a few of the concept points almost by co-incidence.

So, yeah Somewhat Defensive.

 

[Objection]

After much discussion with Pink and Deucalion2, I am now convinced that somewhat defensive would work much better as far as salvaging the concept goes. Its five weaknesses will still encourage direct damage, especially if we then give CAP9 an ability that renders Toxic and maybe Will-o-Wisp and Leech Seed useless against it, but this way it can theoretically switch in on a neutral attack relatively safely.

 

[Plus]

After reading this thread and thinking over this concept, I'm going with somehat offensive. Expect an ability thread up in the meantime.