CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion

[zorbees]

Tyranitar has 61 Speed, you know.

Anyway, I said already why Offensive is the right choice. There really is nothing more to add. Do what you think it's best, but keep in mind that, despite you not wanting to talk about it yet, a decision made here will influence the physical/special bias (and ultimately the spread itself) greatly, and, I fear, not for the best.

Forgive me if you mentioned it already, I may have missed it, but why does CAP9 have to be fast? And why can this not be accomplished with a Somewhat Offensive build? For example, Latias has an ODB of 4.0 and has 110 Sp.Atk and Speed stats. Sure, you can cry "600 BST" but, something similar can still be made. In fact, I managed to reduce Latias' stats to make the BSR fall into the Very Good range, yet still keep the ODB under 20, without touching its Speed or Sp.Atk.

 

[Maci12]

My vote goes to Somewhat Offensive.

In order to switch in multiple times, it needs to have a decent amount of bulk, and in order to at all damage the users it needs to have offensive capabilities. I know that one of the goals of this CAP was to go to more extremes then to stay in the Bulky Offense category that has become so popular recently, but with the goals & typing we gave this CAP, bulky offense is important to it.

In the past we have had Somewhat Defensive pokemon as threats to secondary effects (Tentacruel), but as Deck Knight brought up, they do nothing besides that. Tentacruel can really only absorb Toxic Spikes, as most good stallers will recognize Tentacruel and switch in a Rotom Appliance and then Tentacruel is forced to switch out or die and toxic spikes will be set up again. This pokemon has been given the typing to severely damage most Spin Blockers (Spiritomb excluded), and therefore it needs the offenses to take advantage of this typing.

 

[Deck Knight]

Indeed. One of the reasons I voted for Ground typing was the fact that it got five weaknesses. If we went with Dark/Poison instead and tried to make our CAP "perfect", we'd have to nerf its movepool just to prevent it from being broken, which if I recall correctly is exactly what we did with the last two CAPs.

I suppose now would be a good time to ask what your definition of "perfect" would be. I strive for perfection in my stat builds, making something than can specifically and competently do its job given a variety of scenarios. I no longer believe in anything but pushing a CAP to its legal maximum limits. As I see it we already have information on what fails to do the concept, the concept itself generally is based on a demand that is not adequately fulfilled.

Incidentally despite the fewer weaknesses, Dark/Poison would have needed much, much more offensive focus to viably pose a threat to many secondary users.

 

[Raikizen]

Somewhat Offensive

Why?

Like a few others, I too have been tinkering with a few different builds myself. What I've learned from this is that I think CAP9 should go Somewhat Offensive. Offensive, while it sounds good on paper, would not have the adequate defenses to take very many neutral hits. We've already discussed the many weaknesses of Dark/Ground, so being able to at least Tank neutral hits would be a huge plus.

Somewhat Defensive, going off the range of Pokemon in that category, would leave CAP9 extremely susceptible to secondary users moves. While it would be able to tank neutral hits rather effectively, anything Super Effective would most likely still take it out. If needs the offense to actually threaten the secondary users upon switching in; else wise, we've just invented the first Pokemon that can't even fulfill it's own concept.

I am completely opposed to Defensive as the bias for the project. Dark/Ground was supported for it's great synergy between the dual STAB's. Making it fully defensive would not only ruin those great STAB's, it would make taking out the threats it was designed to significantly harder.

 

[Dummy007]

Somewhat Offensive

Dark/Ground is a wonderful offensive typing, but (as shown in the Secondary Type Discussion) is a horrible defensive typing. The easiest way to "Stop the Secondary" is to "KO the Secondary and Prevent It from Resetting Itself." This can be accomplished with a Pokemon capable of both dealing damage and taking hits from common secondary users.

Offensive seems too fragile to take hits and anything defensive probably can't deal much damage. My two cents in favor of Somewhat Offensive.

 

[KCchiefs]

I vote Somewhat offensive. As a pokemon designed to stop the secondary, it has to be able to do some damage on its own. I don't think many would like a pokemon that keeps the battle focused on attacks but have to take all their best attacks.

At the same time, I don't want to see it come out as a powerhouse. I say it should be around +8 to +12.

 

[Mailman]

Somewhat Offensive

For reasons stated before and in my own opinion switching in to something and being able to kill it is just better than walling. The point of this project is to stop the secondary not to wall it so being able to kill those troublesome pokemon might be better.

 

[Davros6000]

Somewhat Offencive

Why? because it is the best thing for this concept. The whole thing about stoping the secondary is to switch in, so we need to be able to take a hit. The typing of CAP9, Dark/Ground, was chosen to take advantage of the two nice STAB's to punish the user of secondary effects. This is best done by taking a more offencive role. So basicly, it needssome bulkyness to live through a hit or 3, and enough power to KO, or nearly KO, the user of the secondary.

 

[Not Scicky]

Somewhat offensive, I want it to not mind taking a scarf, band OR specs from the opponent, and still be viable.

 

[Illithian]

Somewhat offensive, I want it to not mind taking a scarf, band OR specs from the opponent, and still be viable.

Atyroki, in one sentence, has summarized the main points of this entire discussion.

 

[zarator]

Forgive me if you mentioned it already, I may have missed it, but why does CAP9 have to be fast?

If you are slow and try to Pursuit things like Celebi, Rotom etc, they will just smack you with Grass Knot, Hydro Pump etc. Tyranitar can do its pursuiting job despite being slow thanks to those impressive defenses (especially when you take into account Sandstorm Sp def bonus). I doubt CAP9 will even barely match Tyranitar's staying power

And why can this not be accomplished with a Somewhat Offensive build? For example, Latias has an ODB of 4.0 and has 110 Sp.Atk and Speed stats. Sure, you can cry "600 BST" but, something similar can still be made. In fact, I managed to reduce Latias' stats to make the BSR fall into the Very Good range, yet still keep the ODB under 20, without touching its Speed or Sp.Atk.

Latias has already 80 Atk only, how much you have reduced it in your "hypothetical spread"? What I tried to say countless times is that, with Somewhat Offensive, it is almost impossible to have good Atk AND Sp Atk AND Speed without breaching into skyhigh BSTs. And I already explained why you need each of those stats high (at least, I'd say, 90).

@Atyroki: If you want CAP9 to not mind Choice Scarf, Band OR Specs, you should stick to offense. Somewhat offensive doesn't allow you to have enough on both attacking stats, unless you go with a Camerupt-esque spread. You would not want your Latias (example of a Somewhat offensive Pokémon with not VERY crappy attacking stats) getting a Choice Band, right?

 

[Illithian]

Zarator, a somewhat offensive choice will be quite bulky.

It shouldn't be unreasonably slow, like Heatran or Gyarados. However, perhaps somewhere near 90 speed would work. Not being very quick gives us lots of options for the rest of the spread, such as high HP. If we heavily pump this guy's speed, that leaves very little maneuvering power for the rest of the stats to stay under 420 BSR.

 

[Sceats]

i too vote somewhat offensive/offensive as it best suits both the typing and the theme.

Also i dont know why our main focus is trick when (sorry for poll jumping) we could easily make the ability klutz or sticky hold.

 

[Illithian]

i too vote somewhat offensive/offensive as it best suits both the typing and the theme.

Also i dont know why our main focus is trick when (sorry for poll jumping) we could easily make the ability klutz or sticky hold.

Our main focus isn't trick, its just something that would be nice to counter. Anyway the style bias really doesn't affect whether or not this thing stops trick unless we make it really defensive. And anyway we'd like to keep our options open for later abilities.

 

[Objection]

Celebi has Grass Knot STAB. Battlers aren't idiots. CAP9 will come out and Celebi will think, "Ok, I could set up Leech Seed here, or I could predict the switch and OHKO it with Grass Knot. Or, I could play it safe and U-turn out. Both Super Effective!" Or maybe a Gengar will come in to trick you, and instead use HP Ice.

That is exactly what should happen. We should discourage people from relying on secondary effects and encourage them to attack directly.

Zarator, a somewhat offensive choice will be quite bulky.

It shouldn't be unreasonably slow, like Heatran or Gyarados. However, perhaps somewhere near 90 speed would work. Not being very quick gives us lots of options for the rest of the spread, such as high HP. If we heavily pump this guy's speed, that leaves very little maneuvering power for the rest of the stats to stay under 420 BSR.

Who said that we couldn't go over 420 BSR? That is actually a serious question.

 

[zorbees]

@Zarator:

I don't really understand the need for that much Speed when something like Scizor can outrun a minimum Speed Celebi. Not that I am advocating a base 65 Speed, but I definitely think something like base 80 or so could work.

You're also contradicting yourself. You tell me you want the Pokemon to have at least 90 in the offensive stats, yet you tell Atyroki that a Somewhat Offensive spread doesn't allow this, when in fact, a Somewhat Defensive spread of 100/90/95/90/95/90 fits your "at least 90" qualifications.

 

[Pink]

Objection, when CAP9 is DEAD from taking a STAB Grass Knot from 100 Base Satk, then Celebi is free to set up Leech Seed anyways. It's not like by killing the CAP, Celebi will never set up again.

 

[Naxte]

Objection, when CAP9 is DEAD from taking a STAB Grass Knot from 100 Base Satk, then Celebi is free to set up Leech Seed anyways. It's not like by killing the CAP, Celebi will never set up again.

Just want to say, that in this case, making CAP9 super-light can make Grass Knot not too bad either way--it's not the worst weakness to have.

 

[Pink]

Then it will U-turn and we are still taking a lot of damage to not even come close to stopping the secondary. Celebi comes in later and U-turns or GK to kill then sets up again.

 

[Objection]

But notice how the mere presence of CAP9 (or indeed just the possibility of its presence) was enough to deter the Celebi player from using Leech Seed, just as the mere presence of a Blissey on a team will deter people from relying on special attacks or the mere presence of a steel-type on a team makes Salamence users think twice about using Outrage. That is what stopping the secondary is ultimately about: encouraging the use of direct damage over secondary effects.

 

[Buffalo_Wings]

I just want to throw in that, just as easily as the celebi could predict you switching in CAP9, you could out-predict and send in something like heatran, and force celebi out before it ever uses any secondary effect, right? I don't know, maybe there's a flaw in that.

 

[Mattman324]

I just want to throw in that, just as easily as the celebi could predict you switching in CAP9, you could out-predict and send in something like heatran, and force celebi out before it ever uses any secondary effect, right? I don't know, maybe there's a flaw in that.

No, he's right. This pokemon does not have to be the only way one can stop the secondary, it's imposible for that to happen. If Celebi wants to Leech Seed, then fine: we switch in StSmon and end it. If it wants to GK, then our pokemon that takes Grass attacks handles it (Heatran, Pyroak, Cyclohm... could be anything) Either way, it takes prediction. Like most battling.

 

[Pink]

Sleep
Poison
Paralysis
Confusion
Attract
Burn
Freeze
Stealth Rocks
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Weather Conditions (Hail, Sandstorm, Rain, Sun)
Gravity
Trick Room
Trick
Taunt
Encore
Leech Seed

We're "Stopping" three effects out of that entire list. And, we're not even doing any of them effectively at this point. Leech Seed is used by grass types. The two most common users of Leech Seed are Breloom and Celebi. Both of these Pokemon have two moves that super effect CAP 9. Celebi has U-Turn and Grass Knot. Both will do considerable damage. One could possibly kill it depending on the weight. Breloom has Focus Punch and Seed Bomb. Both could easily OHKO, especially if we go with straight offensive. How is CAP9 going to stop Leech Seed from being used if as he switches in, he's OHKO'd? Even if he's not OHKO'd and needs a 2HKO to die, he could be outsped, and 2HKO'd without doing anything to either Pokemon. Then, Celebi and Breloom have ample opportunity to set up Leech Seed just as before, and CAP9 has failed his job miserably.

Not to mention the fact that he still only stops 3 Secondary Effects. Trick, we know how to deal with. Pursuit works wonders. We learn nothing. Paralysis we only stop T-wave. Body Slam abusers don't care about this typing. Again, we learn nothing. Leech Seed, he doesn't even effectively stop.

So, how is going offensive going to teach us anything about anything? Please someone address these issues that I've been raising since the Secondary typing poll. Please.

I just want to throw in that, just as easily as the celebi could predict you switching in CAP9, you could out-predict and send in something like heatran, and force celebi out before it ever uses any secondary effect, right? I don't know, maybe there's a flaw in that

Then there is absolutely no point in having CAP9 on your team if you're going to deal with Leech Seed with Heatran. If Heatran is going to Stop the Secondary better than our CAP, then again, we didn't learn anything.

 

[Objection]

Pink, you have completely forgotten that we still have the ability and movepool to decide on. Looking at that list, I reckon with a combination of the two, CAP9 would be able to stop all of them and the only ones it would need Taunt to stop are Gravity, Trick Room, Taunt and Encore. Of course, CAP9 does have two ability syndrome so the list of moves its ability wouldn't stop would be longer depending on the chosen ability/ies.

By the way, we have not yet stopped Trick. Pursuit, contrary to what you have said, does not work wonders, but allows something else to come in and set up, be it DDMence, DDGyara, SDLuke, NPApe, SDScizor or whatever.

Also, if anything, Heatran would encourage Celebi to use Leech Seed, while CAP9 would encourage Celebi to attack directly; therefore the Celebi user would be in a bit of a dilemma.

 

[scampy]

I think the very nature of the Dark/Ground typing will cause CAP9 to lose against Breloom no matter what legal stat distribution you give it. To put things into perspective, Adamant Breloom with Seed Bomb deals 47.1% - 55.7% to the standard Hippowdon. It also raises the question of what a defensive CAP9 could possibly do back against Breloom, a Pokemon that resists both of its STAB attacks. Celebi is a more interesting case as it could potentially go either way, but I think all we have to do is give CAP9 a low weight to minimise damage done by Grass Knot.