CAP 4 CAP 4 - Part 10 (Support Moves Poll)

[Sunday]

Pure Utility Pokemon

Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.

Primary Typing: Poison
Secondary Typing: Ground
Style Bias: Mixed, Between -5 and -10 -- Slightly towards defence
Build Bias: Between 5 and 10 -- Slightly towards physical
Base Stat Rating: 300 to 419 -- Very Good
Base Stat Spread: 95 / 76 / 109 / 90 / 80 / 105 = 555 Speed Last.
Primary Ability: Persistant
Secondary Ability: Vital Spirit

Please fill out the following poll!

BOLD your answers.

Should the following moves be allowed to appear on movepool suggestions for our Pokemon? (Please note "yes" winning does not garuntee our Pokemon getting this move. Also you must answer all questions, and bold your answers.)
Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Example!

Should the following moves be allowed to appear on movepool suggestions for our Pokemon?
Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No
<reasoning>

 

[darkie]

Wish
- Yes - How much more utility can you get? Wish helps it support itself and its teammates.
Slack Off
- No - Utility Pokémon should share (their healing); therefore, I believe Wish superior to Slack Off.
Block
- Yes - Block is a cool move, though I do think it should be incompatible with Encore. Regardless how unbroken people will say the combination is right now, eventually someone creative could possibly make a set that is indeed broken. I'd rather not risk having a broken CaP, since I'd like to use it in standard.
Tailwind
- Yes - Doug changed my mind about Tailwind. It does fit the concept well, but I think simply making a new move with different flavor/typing wouldn't be uncalled for, if simply to appease those who believe Tailwind doesn't fit flavor-wise (including myself).
Gravity
- Yes - In theory, Gravity (heh, I almost typed Gravy), along with Tailwind, is one of the coolest moves GameFreak has developed in Gen IV. However, its effect is much to short to use effectively outside of Doubles. Gravity fits quite well flavor-wise on a Ground-type.
Heal Block
- No - Heal Block, in my opinion, is a waste of a slot in its movepool. Other utility options are far more useful and overall better.
Yawn
- No - I really don't want this CaP to have any status moves. Encore forces enough switches as it is.

I will edit in my reasoning tommorrow, when I'm more than 15% awake.

edit: D-d-d-d-done! I hope it isn't terribly difficult to read.

 

[flygon493]

Wish - Yes
Slack Off - No
Block/Spider Web - Yes
Tailwind - Yes
Gravity - Yes
Heal Block - No
Yawn - No

Reasoning:

Wish - It can definitely fold its hands and pray for its teammates. It will help fill for the lack of wishers as well.

Slack Off - This shouldn't be getting any self-healing besides Wish/Rest. It wouldn't have room for it anyways, but I don't think anything with Vital Spirit should bet Rest, it seems contradictory.

Block/Spider Web - It has enough hands to block and is actually a spider, so they fit flavor wise. They aren't really dangerous(even with encore, as it would waste a turn and a moveslot), either.

Tailwind - Think of it using its arms like a fan. It is not broken in anyway because its essentially just a 3 turn agilipass.

Heal Block - Heal Block is more using psychic powers, not literally blocking(IMO). Also, it is a bit useless to me.

Yawn - Again, Vital Spirit doesn't mesh well with this. Also, I don't think it should be getting any sleeping moves.

 

[Zonik]

Wish - No
Slack Off - No
Block/Spider Web - Yes
Tailwind - No
Gravity - Yes
Heal Block - No
Yawn - No

I think that this Pokémon shouldn't be able to heal itself or heal others, it will be enough with the lot of other utility moves that it's going to have.
Block seems reasonable because it can trap with two hands while is using other hands to make other moves. About Tailwind and Gravity I'm not sure, both moves seems to be credible in this Pokémon but I think that 5-turn Tailwind is a little bit broken, because even though the Pokémon faints or switch out the speed boost will continue. Heal block doesn't make sense to me and about Yawn... this Pokémon has mouth?

 

[Captain]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Wish, Tailwind, and Gravity are all good moves to add to it's support movepool and I doubt any of them is broken. They will just help it be more OU. Spider Web reminds me of wobbuffet assuming it is useful at all. Heal Block doesn't appeal to me either. Slack off, I voted against mainly because it'll take up room while wish is an decent more support-oriented option.

 

[Deucalion2]

Wish - Yes/No Slack Off - Yes/No Block/Spider Web - Yes/No Tailwind - Yes/No Gravity - Yes/No Heal Block - Yes/No Yawn - Yes/No My enter key is still broken. Please excuse the wierd format. :( Anyways, Wish adds to the utility feel, because the primary purpose of a utility is to aid the team, which Wish does. Slack Off, however, only aids the utility, so it gets a no. Block/Spiderweb helps the team, as with encore, that is one free turn of set-up. From a competitive point of view, I'd love to say yes to Tailwind, but from a flavour point of view, no. All Tailwinders have wings, with the exception of Suicune, who is the embodiment of the North Wind. Gravity is another team-aider, so yes. Heal Block... just doesn't make sense. Yawn I like, because it both aids the team by pseudo-phazing/roaring, as well as aids DLL himself.

 

[X-Act]

Should the following moves be allowed to appear on movepool suggestions for our Pokemon?

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Slack Off would be broken on this Pokemon, so I voted 'no' for it. I can see this Pokemon use Block, Heal Block and Yawn. I don't see it use Wish, Tailwind and Gravity conceptually.

 

[Jhonny]

Wish - No
Slack Off - No
Block/Spider Web - Yes
Tailwind - Yes
Gravity - Yes
Heal Block - Yes
Yawn - NO

 

[Darkflagrance]

Wish - Yes
Slack Off - No
Block/Spider Web - Yes
Tailwind - Yes
Gravity - Yes
Heal Block - Yes
Yawn - Yes

Since the pokemon we are creating is a utility, and considering the low likelihood that we will return to a utility pokemon in the near-future, I feel that we should equip DDL with the moves of a utility, including the semi-obscure, underused ones that might see play with Persistent.

Flavor is not an issue, because a) flavor is more than just appearance and typing; and b) All we have to do to overcome flavor issues is think creatively. Allowing ourselves to be constrained by the conventional is not only cowardly, but perhaps also causes us to betray the illogical and fantastic assumptions that are fundamental to Pokemon.

Gravity can easily be justified because a) DDL is a Ground-type; and b) we can say that it has unusual abilities to twist the force of gravity because of its connection to the ground - abilities that are unique only to DDL.
Tailwind can be justified by saying that it is capable of traveling in the air with balloon sacs of spider thread, and that it uses Tailwind to move along with a purpose (Someone brought up an objection because of Drifloon; however, Drifloon and Driftblim prefer to drift with the wind, and in addition have their own ghostly powers to propel them instead).

Metagame-wise, we can't know the brokenness of Persistent Gravity or Tailwind until they are tested. Also, learning more about the way these moves can be utilized would reveal more about the ways that the pokemon metagame works.

Also, I thought it was getting Recover rather than Slack Off?

 

[linton]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Just based on the appearance. Moves don't overly matter to me that much.

 

[beej]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

I'm pretty passive about most of these, though I still hate the idea of Tailwind on this thing. People talked about the drill, but really, that means ANY rapid spinner can use it. Or anything that uses Whirlwind for that matter. It's simply not true. It isn't even learned by most FLYING-TYPES. Sure, flavor isn't the most important aspect of a movepool, but we might as well give Skarmory Ice Punch to deal with Garchomp.

My sentiments on Wish would probably be the same, if it didn't belong to some pretty weird stuff already. If Girafarig can "Wish", so can this.

People have been talking about the power of free turns, and I agree. I think it's already annoying enough that you can be subject to the fast Encore, but it really sucks when one pokemon can do both that AND threaten sleep or switch. Imagine how impossibly annoying it would be to Encore a Thunder Wave, and then the switch-in gets Yawned. I could very well be wrong, but...that's just my interpretation.

 

[Cerbi01]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Wish for more team-support, no to Slack Off (and/or Recover). While it may be based off a DLL/spider, I really can't see it shooting out webs of spider-silk with those already-awesome hands. However, I can understand conceptually when it uses Block. It doesn't feel 'spiritual' enough to be able to use Heal Block and Tailwind is just plain awkward for me to see it use; unless anyone can convince me (and people like me) with great creativity how DLL does it. Yawn is always loved, as a phazer and irritant.

 

[sbc]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

 

[JimBob]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

I like Wish as a healing move because it's also used for supporting your team just as much as it is used to support yourself. However, I don't really want it to get any 50% healing moves because wow its defenses are huge. Really Wish isn't as big an issue because hopefully most people will want more room for support moves rather than Protect, or we could just not give it protect.

 

[latinoheat]

Wish - No
Slack Off - No
Block/Spider Web - Yes
Tailwind - No
Gravity - Yes
Heal Block - Yes
Yawn - No

 

[ParadOxymoron]

Wish - Yes
Slack Off - No
Block - Yes
Tailwind - No
Gravity - Yes
Heal Block - Yes
Yawn - No

We can not give this guy Tailwind. It would be a completely lapse of flavor. Everyone says that this guy can learn Tailwind because Hariyama can learn Whirlwind, but they're not even the same class of move. Whirlwind is making a gust of wind with your wings or hands, while Tailwind is actually controlling the wind behind you. That's why Suicine learns Tailwind but not Whirlwind, and why Hariyama learns Whirlwind but not Tailwind. I mean, come on guys. Not even Skarmory learns Tailwind! He and Starmie deserve it before this guy does. Why don't we just give it to Forretress, too? It would be like giving Flamethrower to Bellossom.

Anyone who says that "flavor is not an issue" is clearly missing the point. If flavor weren't an issue, then half of what people do here wouldn't have any point to it at all! I understand that we're a fan community project here, so there are bound to be some inconsistencies, but this just goes completely beyond that. Not only does this guy not have wings, it doesn't have anything like wings! It doesn't even have a tail! Why don't we just give Psychic to Rhyperior while we're at it? I'd like this thing to have some sense of professional validity, and any semblance of that goes out the window the second we give this thing Tailwind. I think it's even worse than giving Fire Fang and Superpower to Syclant. Why wdon't we give Psychic to Rhyperior, too, while we're at it?

I'm not just blindingly choosing flavor over mechanics. If I were doing that, I might have voted for a different spread than Maniaclyrasist's, or for Frisk over Vital Spirit. I didn't. I thought that those were acceptable lapses in flavor for a greater mecahical end result. But this is Tailwind on a Ground-type Pokémon, with no tail, no wings, and no Suicune-like mystical powers to speak of. This is not me blindingly fighting for flavor, this is me trying to make sure that we don't completely throw flavor out to the dogs. If there's a voice in the back of your head telling you that Tailwind is a stretch, please listen to it and do the right thing. Vote No for Tailwind.

 

[Nasty Pass]

Wish - Yes, it isn't immediate recovery, so I don't see anything particularly wrong with it.
Slack Off - No, I might have said yes were this Recover, but you can't give something Vital Spirit and then decide to give it Slack Off of all things.
Block - Yes but incompatible with Encore.
Tailwind - No, I've said it beofre, I'll say it again: IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE ON A GROUND TYPE SPIDER OF ALL THINGS. Maybe if we give it a ballooning spider pre-evo, then we could give this to it, but not this guy.
Gravity - Yes, oh wow look at me I can hit flying types with EQ and some other things :V I fail to see how this is a big deal, and it isn't completely nonsensical like Tailwind.
Heal Block - Yes, read: Gravity, replace hitting flying types with EQ with no healing.
Yawn - Yes, I'd get pretty close to yawning too if I went for years without sleep.

 

[Frosty]

Wish - Yes/No

K, I know that most pokes capable of using wish has some kind of cute factor, but Xatu, Jynx and Spinda learn it, and they surely aren't cute <_<;. Now seriously, it has hands, it is surely capable of praying, wish is one of the moves mentioned on the concept and it goes damn well with the utility theme.

Slack Off - Yes/No

Oh god no. It has great defenses and possibly wish. It does not need a 50% recovery move...at all. Wish is more than enough.

Block/Spider Web - Yes/No

Honestly, I don't see the point of putting a trapping move on an utility poke, but that is me. You will want the players to switch pokes, so you get free turns to use those utility moves and flee. It won't get anything by trapping a poke, mainly because most of the utility moves are temporary and if you still stay too much time, you will only waste some of those precious turns you have. The only combination that makes sense is Block + Encore, and I personally find that very dangerous (read: possibly broken), since even the weakest pokemon can 5HKO any other poke stuck in T-bolt. For said reasons I prefer to be safe and not give DLL a trapping move.

Tailwind - Yes/No

I admit that, flavourwise, Tailwind doesn't make any sense on this poke. But I am one of those people who couldn't care less <_<;. It is a pretty much never used utility move that is enhanced by persistent. It has a lot of potential, IMO, and really, it is basically a less drastic Trick Room with a smaller risk of backfiring...I don't consider it to be broken at all. But that is me.

Gravity - Yes/No

It can always go underground and use all those hands to pull the enemy to the ground <_<;. The ability to use Gravity (which is another almost never used utility move) and then fire STAB Earthquakes (in this case, Earth Powers) is just too good to pass. And it is also listed on the concept.

Heal Block - Yes/No

I don't know you, but I don't find the Toxic-Heal Block-Wish stall combination attractive. I want an utility poke, not yet another toxic staller. I know that I said yes for Wish, but I am hoping that people will prefer to use more defensive pokes like Cresseia for that. In addition to that, it doesn't fit flavour-wise AND doesn't achieve anything good enough to mke up for that.

Yawn - Yes/No

I am undecided as far as Yawn is concerned, to be honest. But yawn forces switches, which gives you free turns to do your stuff, and that is reason enough for me.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No - Indifferent and really don't mind if it get's either of them or not.
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No - See Block
Yawn - Yes/No

Wish, Slack off, and Gravity gets an auto-yes from me. Truly want them all in it's movepool.

After a few hours of thought I decided to vote yes for Tailwind. Flavor issue be damned, our main focus point within this project was Trick Room/Gravity/Tailwind/and a few other moves and it shall stay on that path. Goddamnit we given voted on an ability that increase the uses of these moves, what's the point in that if it doesn't have any of those moves to use =/

Heal Block and Block....don't much change.

 

[sbc]

A tailwind is created when something moving very fast creates a drag effect behind it, which speeds up things which are travelling directly behind it. Hence why F1 cars travel faster when they are in packs together.

Most flying types get Tailwind because this drag effect is often seen with aeroplanes and birds travelling fast. Not solely because they are flying-type

All this pokemon has to do to flavourly get Tailwind is to move quickly. A simple, "this pokemon propels itself at high speeds using its multiple hands" in the description can easily justify Tailwind.

 

[Flounder]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Too lazy to explain.

 

[Sunday]

A tailwind is created when something moving very fast creates a drag effect behind it, which speeds up things which are travelling directly behind it. Hence why F1 cars travel faster when they are in packs together.

Most flying types get Tailwind because this drag effect is often seen with aeroplanes and birds travelling fast. Not solely because they are flying-type

All this pokemon has to do to flavourly get Tailwind is to move quickly. A simple, "this pokemon propels itself at high speeds using its multiple hands" in the description can easily justify Tailwind.

What? That's a slipstream. A tailwind, as X-Act pointed out previously, is a wind coming from behind that speeds flight (and hinders landing).

 

[ParadOxymoron]

All this pokemon has to do to flavourly get Tailwind is to move quickly. A simple, "this pokemon propels itself at high speeds using its multiple hands" in the description can easily justify Tailwind.

That's just not true. Look at the list of Pokémon that learn Tailwind.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/tailwind

Four birds, a butterfly, and an avatar of the north wind. If it's not flapping your wings, its controlling the wind with your legendary powers. There's just no way this thing can learn Tailwind.

Look, why don't we compromise? Why don't we make a new move that's just like Tailwind, except with different flavor? Superspeed. Psychic type. That way everybody can be happy.

 

[Tsukikage]

Wish - Yes/No
Slack Off - Yes/No
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No
Tailwind - Yes/No
Gravity - Yes/No
Heal Block - Yes/No
Yawn - Yes/No

Wish- I really don't think this should get any healing outside of Rest, but we wanted an "Ultimate Utility Pokemon" and Wish aids in that, allowing it to heal teammates, and art-wise, I think Wish works.

Slack Off- As stated before, I don't want any healing, and as I already said it should get Wish, Slack Off is unnecessary.

Block/Spider Web- I don't care which one it actually gets (I'd personally rather Block), but I think trapping would be great on this.

Tailwind- I know some people can rationalize this, but I just can't see it, but then again, Snorlax and Hariyama can Whirlwind, so meh.

Gravity- Gravity was in mind the entire process of making this Pokemon, and now its up for debate? I don't get it. It looks like it could learn Gravity, and I think it should.

Heal Block- Although its not something I'm terribly worried about, I just don't like this learning Heal Block.

Yawn- I don't want to see Roar or Whilrwind, so I'd like to see Yawn to force switches.

 

[Hyra]

Wish - Yes/No Forced to vote, so more options > less.
Slack Off - Yes/No Recover sounds better though.
Block/Spider Web - Yes/No It opens up too many problems with the other moves we want.
Tailwind - Yes/No See below.
Gravity - Yes/No No opposition.
Heal Block - Yes/No See below.
Yawn - Yes/No No mouth, no Yawn.

Where's Trick Room? Or does it just automatically get that?

Edit:

Copying Gothic Togekiss's reasoning:

After a few hours of thought I decided to vote yes for Tailwind. Flavor issue be damned, our main focus point within this project was Trick Room/Gravity/Tailwind/and a few other moves and it shall stay on that path. Goddamnit we given voted on an ability that increase the uses of these moves, what's the point in that if it doesn't have any of those moves to use =/