CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)

[Mekkah]

Aki, Pokemon _don't_ get new moves every 2-4 levels...

 

[Aki]

I missed 3 posts which i'd like to talk about while in the posting of the super long post, and because of ICBB I can't edit it, so i'm posting again.

I will try to write up a TM/HM list.

1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?
Leach Seed. nothing else

Agreed.
2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)?
Yes. BU, Agility, Howl, Maybe SD, Growth.

ouch that's revenaknh all over again. Ease up dude =p
3. Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those slots, then what moves do you want in them?

Hmmmm, Leaf Storm, Larva Plume, Energy Ball

Agreed.

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in?

Plant/Monster

Good.

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.

Wood Hammer, Yawn, Ingrain, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt. some other stuff.


iron head is massive fail. Ingrain is a form of healing, and yawn is a worse form of phazing then Roar.

Posting this before reading any replies.

Quote:
1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?
Definitely include Synthesis, and add it to the list of things that could be removed if it becomes too broken.

I agree, testing should be done. However, i have a feeling it will be removed.

Quote:
2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)?
I would like to see Growth and at least Howl, however I have no real issue with a surprise Swords Dance set as long as, again, if it proves broken we remove it.

Agreed. Growth seems to be pushing it, but i'm all for testing it.

3. Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those slots, then what moves do you want in them?

Many cannon based moves either suck, or they are the opposite: too good, remove counters. Think Charge Beam, Ice Beam, etc. I do think that in addition to its standard Grass/Fire stuff (Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Giga Drain, Fire Blast, Flamethrower) it should get Lava Plume. Eruption is obviously a novelty, but I can see it being on him. Flash Cannon has no use whatsoever, but it has cannon in it, so why not. Focus Blast doesn't really do anything to any of its flying counters (however it rapes Tyranitar, so maybe not), and again fits the blasting theme. Heat Wave suits him and does nothing. Leaf Storm is a bit iffy, but I think it will do in the testing department.

Read the massive section i've posted about it.

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in?

No idea, Monster suits him, but I think we should look at what its egg moves should be first before you determine group.

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.

Egg Moves are really only good for excluding particular illegal combo's. I have no idea yet what should be illegal combinations, as nothing about it seems too broken yet.

I mostly agreed with you, Testing should be done so we don't end up with an Overpowered Revenankhy sorta thing.

I think this is a better level-up list (the one posted has too many level-up moves):

I think this is a better level-up list (the one posted has too many level-up moves):

- Wood Hammer (Heart Scale move)
- Flare Blitz (Heart Scale move)
- Pound
- Growl
- Bullet Seed
5. Growl
9. Bullet Seed
13. Ember
17. Growth
21. Stun Spore
23. Leech Seed
28. AncientPower
33. Energy Ball
39. Flash Cannon
45. Seed Bomb
51. Flamethrower
57. Will-o-Wisp

I removed Hammer Arm and Focus Energy, and changed the level numbers to be more Pokemon-like.

No hyper beam makes me cry, but this looks good.

Remember that growth can go in the Support Move slots or egg moves thingy.

 

[MillionDaggers]

I agree with the above post, Lava Plume is nicer than Flamethrower when it comes to tanking. Don't know about leaf Storm though, energy ball/grass knot seem good enough overall.

 

[Aki]

Aki, Pokemon _don't_ get new moves every 2-4 levels...

I was using the template that G_T Done. It's not set in stone, Henceforth i'd like you to suggest a better one. That's just my 3c, and i'm not going to discuss any negative feedback that's not constructive to avoid a flame war.

 

[X-Act]

My list is definitely not definitive.

But at least it has a reasonable number of level-up moves. I'd say a good level-up list should NEVER have more than 13 moves, and should have 12 moves most of the time.

More than 13 moves would be fanboyish.

 

[Mekkah]

I'd create one, but I really prefer X-Act's over anything. :]

 

[eric the espeon]

I did a list of TM/HM moves to add to Aki's

For TMs:
Toxic, Hyper Beam, Protect, Giga Drain, Iron Tail, Dig, Brick Break(maybe), Double Team, Flamethrower, Aerial Ace (maybe), Facade, Secret Power, Attract, Endure, Drain Punch(Maybe), W-o-W, Sword Dance(maybe), Stelth Rock, Poison Jab(maybe), U-Turn(maybe).

for HMs
maybe Cut and Rock Climb?

 

[Aki]

I've just PM'd Mekkah in regards to changing the movelist. It's got 14, including Hyper Beam for the 1337ness factor, but that can be taken out if really necessary.

- Wood Hammer (Heart Scale move)
- Flare Blitz (Heart Scale move)
- Pound
- Growl
- Bullet Seed
5. Growl
9. Bullet Seed
13. Ember
17. Growth
21. Stun Spore
23. Leech Seed
28. AncientPower
33. Energy Ball
39. Flash Cannon
45. Seed Bomb
51. Flamethrower
57. Will-o-Wisp

Main problem i have with it is that it's got heaps of support options, heaps of useless initial moves, and Flash Cannon as a Levelup move.

 

[Stall]

Main problem i have with it is that it's got heaps of support options, heaps of useless initial moves, and Flash Cannon as a Levelup move.

That is NORMAL for a Pokemon, though...

 

[Aki]

- Pound
- Growl
- Bullet Seed
5. Growl
9. Bullet Seed
13. Ember

6 is quite alot for anything excepting starters. Flash cannon has no reason to be on the level up list IMO.

 

[X-Act]

Main problem i have with it is that it's got heaps of support options, heaps of useless initial moves, and Flash Cannon as a Levelup move.

All Pokemon have heaps of useless initial moves in their level-up moves. Most of the Pokemon's good moves are TMs usually, or else repeated as both TMs and level-up moves.

Did you look at Ampharos' level up list? Crobat's? etc.

 

[Deck Knight]

Why do we feel the need to give every pokemon that has ever existed Hammer Arm? Also, you have way to little spacing between moves.

My Edit's in Bold

Level Up Moves:
1. Leer
1. Ember
5. Growl
9. Bullet Seed
13. Focus Energy
16. Sunny Day
21. Will-O-Wisp I think Stun Spore is too effective a way to cripple its counters.
27. Leech Seed
32. Synthesis Do you not remember anything at all about "No Rock or Ground moves?"
37. Charge Beam (This is essentially a 63% Growth plus a chance to inflict minor damage on flying types.)
37. Heat Wave
37. Solarbeam
45. Growth
52. Lava Plume
59. Leaf Storm Synthesis got moved up, this would be quite awesome.
66. Flare Blitz Make it breed with Torterra for Wood Hammer or Seed Bomb IMHO.

Will provide more later, must go.

 

[Aldaron]

Whooooaaa DK with the first controversial move of the topic!!

No Stun Spore ;_;

I think I said fine for this in my original post buttttt I'm willing to change it to questionable and just go with the general consensus.

I can see how Stun Spore could be problematic for its potential counters and checks, though I still would like to stand by the philosophy of being as liberal as possible with support moves simply because of how flimsy theorymon is for direct damage moves, meaning support moves probably can't even be predicted that "well."

 

[Luck]

1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?

Yes Synthesis and Leech Seed.The normal grass stuff

2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)?

Growth and Sword Dance/Howl.No stat up that affects both offense and defensive meaning no bulk up,calm mind,and lesser degree dragon dance.


3. Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those slots, then what moves do you want in them?

Don't care as long as doesn't get Head Smash

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in?

plant/monster

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.

Plant i guess


Sword dance is the only thing question.This poke does not get any sunny day boosting stuff that would have put this poke in question.If this is done

I daresay that this thing should not have any Rock, Ground or Fighting moves that have more than 70 power for special moves (so AncientPower can stay) and more than 85 power for physical ones (so we can give it Rock Slide, say, or Brick Break, but not Focus Punch or Stone Edge).

Then sword dance is a possibility

 

[X-Act]

I suggest this thing to breed with Ground and Plant. I also suggest the following egg moves:

Blaze Kick – Ground: Smeargle, Blaziken, (Infernape, Lucario) Plant: None

Fire Spin – Ground: Smeargle, Blaziken, Ninetales, Rapidash, Flareon, Torkoal, Infernape, (Arcanine, Houndoom) Plant: None

Leaf Storm – Ground: Smeargle, Shiftry Plant: Victreebel, Exeggutor, Bellossom, Sunflora, Shiftry, Tropius, Torterra, (Venusaur, Tangrowth, Meganium, Roserade)

Double Kick – Ground: Smeargle, Nidoking, Jolteon, Blaziken, (Rapidash, Typhlosion, Quagsire, Girafarig, Stantler, Zangoose, Infernape) Plant: None

Nature Power – Ground: Smeargle, Shiftry Plant: Ludicolo, Shiftry, (Venusaur, Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Meganium, Sunflora, Tropius, Cherrim)

Body Slam – Ground: Smeargle, Miltank, Torkoal, Walrein, Purugly, (Arcanine, Ampharos, Quagsire, Mamoswine, Donphan, Slaking, Wailord, Camerupt, Seviper, Hippowdon) Plant: Meganium, Tropius, (Torterra)

Double-edge – Ground: Smeargle, Raticate, Typhlosion, Donphan, Delcatty, Camerupt, Spinda, Hippowdon, (Arcanine, Rapidash, Furret, Ursaring, Mamoswine, Miltank, Wailord, Absol, Bibarel, Skuntank) Plant: Venusaur, (Jumpluff, Torterra, Abomasnow)

Mud Bomb – Ground: Smeargle, Arbok, Dugtrio, Quagsire, Mamoswine, (Golduck, Camerupt) Plant: None

Mud Shot – Ground: Smeargle, Quagsire, (Mamoswine) Plant: None

Curse – Ground: Smeargle, Torkoal, (Farfetch’d, Rhyperior, Eeveelutions, Quagsire, Dunsparce, Mamoswine, Miltank, Slaking, Manectric, Wailord, Zangoose, Absol, Walrein, Hippowdon) Plant: Torterra, (Venusaur, Exeggutor, Sunflora, Tropius)

(Pokemon in brackets learn the move via breeding themselves, the one not in brackets learn them as level-up moves).

No Pokemon learns Zap Cannon from Ground or Plant. If people REALLY want Zap Cannon that badly, Flash Cannon can be replaced with Zap Cannon in the level-up list I posted.

EDIT: Added Curse. Might be controversial, but I don't really think it is.

 

[Aldaron]

Zap Cannon really just has a cool factor for me...I don't think it is particularly troublesome if it is included or not.

I'd like to include it though ;D

 

[X-Act]

I decided to add Curse to the egg moves. I think (hope!) it's not a controversial addition.

 

[eric the espeon]

X-Act, if its ground it can get the lot from smeregle, most people want monster not ground.

 

[Aki]

We need Zap cannon + Mind reader egg move from breloom.

Period. I'd put it on my stall team 2.0 just for the lmaoz factor.

1. Leer
1. Ember
5. Growl
9. Bullet Seed
13. Focus Energy
16. Sunny Day
21. Will-O-Wisp I think Stun Spore is too effective a way to cripple its counters.
27. Leech Seed
32. Synthesis Do you not remember anything at all about "No Rock or Ground moves?"
37. Charge Beam (This is essentially a 63% Growth plus a chance to inflict minor damage on flying types.)
37. Heat Wave
37. Solarbeam
45. Growth
52. Lava Plume
59. Leaf Storm Synthesis got moved up, this would be quite awesome.
66. Flare Blitz Make it breed with Torterra for Wood Hammer or Seed Bomb IMHO.

Woah. Either charge beam or growth. Growth is the better option, as you can't attack with it. Also, although i'm all for testing synthesis, we really need to debate it just a little bit first.

 

[X-Act]

The majority of Fire types' egg group is Ground. The only Fire Pokemon that are not in the Ground egg group are Charizard (Monster/Dragon), Magmortar (HumanShape) and Magcargo (Indeterminate). The others either don't breed or are in the Ground group.

Ground and Plant are the obvious choices. You can't make this thing not breed with the majority of Fire types. That's just insane!

 

[Aki]

It is insane, but it's ultimate fail if we give it egg moves with the intention of illegal sets.

Short answer: Don't give it an overpowered moveset:

Long answer: Do not Bestow woodman with an Overwhelmingly Superior Movepool.

 

[X-Act]

I thought we are intelligent enough not to give any Pokemon a broken movepool. I thought the egg moves I posted are not broken at all.

But maybe I'm the only ignorant person here who thinks that this Pokemon should breed with Ninetales, Arcanine, Rapidash, Flareon, Typhlosion, Houndoom, Blaziken, Camerupt, Torkoal and Infernape!

 

[Aki]

Oh hell yea it should, but we need to avoid something like TG + EP Syclant. There's a reason that's an illegal set; we need to refrain from giving it stuff that's just broken in the way of support.

 

[latinoheat]

Pound
Growl
Ember
7. Bullet Seed
13. Headbutt
17. Growth
21. Leech Seed
23. Seed Bomb
28. WOW
33. Energy Ball
39. Sunny Day
45. Synthesis/Morning Sun
51. Flamethrower
57. Solar beam
63. Flare Blitz

TM's
5 Roar
9 Bullet Seed
10 Hidden Power
11 Sunny Day
15 Hyper Beam
16 Light Screen
17 Protect
19 Giga Drain
21 Frustration
22 SolarBeam
23 Iron Tail
27 Return
32 Double Team
33 Reflect
34 Shock Wave
35 Flamethrower
36 Sludge Bomb
38 Fire Blast
42 Facade
43 Secret Power
44 Rest
45 Attract
50 Overheat
53 Energy Ball
58 Endure
61 Will-O-Wisp
70 Flash
75 Swords Dance
82 Sleep Talk
83 Natural Gift
86 Grass Knot
87 Swagger
90 Substitute
91 Flash Cannon

Egg Moves

Aromatherapy
Wood Hammer
Worry Seed
Blaze Kick
Counter
Leaf Storm
Mud Bomb
Body Slam
Skull Bash

Illegal Combinations

Aroma+Wood Hammer/Counter/Blaze Kick
Blaze Kick+Wood Hammer


Any opinions on aromatherapy?

 

[X-Act]

The only boost move I suggested was Curse, and I don't find Curse + Blaze Kick broken with only 70 Atk stat. :(

We should be intelligent enough to know what's broken and what's not.

EDIT: Well. To be honest I don't care either way. I'll just say that HumanShape would fit this Pokemon more than Monster, if anything. We're not calling him 'Woodman' for no reason... it must be the shape of a man to be called Woodman! In that case there are 2 other Fire types that are HumanShapes, which I'm okay with.