CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll

[Deck Knight]

Voted Electric.

Electric is the only type in the poll that benefits Togekiss offensively. Electric adds an attack type Togekiss does not often access and guarantees a plethora of paralysis inducing moves to support it. Electric also resists one of its weaknesses without opening it up to any of the other two.

Ground is quite frankly a windfall for everything but Togekiss. Gyarados appreciates an electric immunity to switch around too much more, especially if this falls off track and becomes a Colossoil II Spinner.

Ground has no offensive synergy with Togekiss. Starmie scares it out, Rotom-A, Gengar, and Zapdos are immune to it, it will need substantial attack to deal with Blissey using Earthquake or a boosting move.

Fighting is worse though. Fighting's "synergy" with Togekiss is literally "resists SR." Togekiss already utilizes Aura Sphere and can Roost off the Stone Edges of paralyzed opponents. Fighting does not guarantee any sort of move that any other type would be denied, either, as all the important Ground and Rock moves are TMs and Tutors.

Steel is basically Fighting except with no redeeming offensive characteristics. "Resists SR!" "Lots of resistances!" These would all be excellent points for a defensive core, but Steel is one of the worst offensive types. I need not go through the litany again, but Zapdos, Rotom-A, and Starmie wall Steel too. Those three either wall or counter all 3 of the "resists SR!" types, so I'm going with Electric, since it least it can take out Starmie and at least hit Zapdos for neutral, and reisists Zapdos and Rotom's stronger STAB move.

But from the looks of it this will be a battle between choosing "Ground CAP #3" or "Fighting CAP #4."

 

[Wikey]

I voted Fighting just because I was in disbelief that Steel made the poll but not Rock. If I could change my vote to Electric I would but I digress.

Can anyone who voted Ground explain to me what a Ground CAP11 could do for Kiss that Colossoil couldn't? Soil can spin, resists Rock and is immune to Electric. He walls Rotom and Ttar's STABs while having EQ for Tar and Pursuit for Rotom and Blissey. He has SE for Zap. He has Taunt, Rebound, and Guts. I wasn't around for Soil's testing but I have a feeling he didn't boost Kiss to the next level.

@SharavanP: If you look at some of the names that voted for Ground I think you can assume intelligent thought went into their votes I just want an explanation of what they found good about Ground.

 

[ShravanP]

I get the feeling that the thought process behind a lot of the votes for Ground goes only as far as "Yes, Electric immunity - Good." Other than this, what does Ground have going for it? Please think of its pitfalls as well. In addition to what DK mentioned above, Starmie will also rip the pair to shreds unless CAP11's secondary typing resists water/ice or you get lucky with an FP. Where is the offensive OR defensive synergy here?

I voted Fighting, but I'd be just as happy with Electric. But Ground looks more like a pitfall than an opportunity to me.

 

[smallvizier]

Can anyone who voted Ground explain to me what a Ground CAP11 could do for Kiss that Colossoil couldn't? Soil can spin, resists Rock and is immune to Electric. He walls Rotom and Ttar's STABs while having EQ for Tar and Pursuit for Rotom and Blissey. He has SE for Zap. He has Taunt, Rebound, and Guts. I wasn't around for Soil's testing but I have a feeling he didn't boost Kiss to the next level.

Somebody pointed out earlier that Togekiss' 'most powerful' pairing is with an Uber pokemon - say, Groundon. I mean, any team with Togekiss and Groundon on it would be a serious threat. Yet for some reason, Togekiss doesn't get used with Groundon much. Why not? It's the power mismatch.

Colossoil is a really rather powerful ground-type pokemon who doesn't care about Togekiss. CaP11, if it turns out to be Ground-type, will quite possibly be a slowish special attacker who helps Togekiss paralyze things, lives off its Wish and Nasty Plot, and has a dry Baton Pass to pass those on to another team-mate afterwards. Nothing like Colossoil! And far more reliant on its proper partner.

Now, none of the things in the paragraph above are set in stone, I just picked a bunch of the suggestions from the last couple of threads. My point is that a Ground pokemon does not have to be identical to Colossoil, any more than a Fighting pokemon has to be identical to Medicham. We have a lot more up our sleeves to make CaP11 a specific partner for Togekiss.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Voted Fighting, for a number of reasons:

1) Fighting helps our partner switch in to Tyranitar, who greatly threatens Togekiss unless it runs Aura Sphere, which not every Togekiss does/should. Even with Aura Sphere a partner who can switch in to ScarfTar or CurseTar (who survives an Aura Sphere and KOs back) is valuable. Edit: After doing some calcs it turns out that any Tyranitar with some HP investment will survive Aura Sphere, so this is actually a major threat.

2) Fighting helps our partner quickly deal with Blissey, who walls NP Kiss.

3) Fighting has excellent offensive synergy with Flying. Together the STABs are resisted by...Rotom and Zapdos? And that's it. Since we're making an offensive combination this part is important.

4) Fighting plays very well with possible secondary typings. It has few readily exploitable weaknesses and a few important resistances already, meaning it's a very neutral and versatile type. We could pair it with all sorts of things, depending on the direction we ultimately decide to take this in. While Ground is also somewhat versatile, it is limited in this case by its weakness to Ice and Water, two fairly common offensive attacking types. Our secondary typing would need to cover that weakness if we want this to be successful, which would greatly limit our options.

 

[familyguyman]

How is Ground going to help other Flying types? Since when does a Ground type handle the bulky Waters who stop Gyarados (particularly Starmie)? It might help Skarmory, but it doesn't stop Fire attacks, or Fighting, or Water; and if it's offensively focused, it won't work well with Skarmory typing or not. It doesn't even help Salamence or Dragonite. Gliscor doesn't need it and Aerodactyl is a lead only. Really, Zapdos is the only one who can stand to benefit from this but the shared Ice weakness and the fact that Electric isn't as threatening to Zapdos really damper it.

Ground draws Grass, Flying and Water, nothing to be too scared of, especially for Togekiss. The Ice weakness can be easily worked around if it's such a big deal, even Water can be as well.

The allure of Ground is it's IMMUNITY to Electric. Resistances sound nice but immunities (Thunder Wave?) are what really make a difference; look at Cyclohm's "amazing" quad resist to Electric, he still gets paralyzed like everyone else. Ground also meshes beautifully with many secondary types, every single one mentioned in this poll and even more. It even can benefit from many abilities, Thick Fat, Dry Skin, Mold Breaker, etc. Basically, Ground is very flexible and, by itself, not the cure-all for every Flying type. It certainly helps Togekiss defensively while not being dominant offensively. It's not perfect, but that can be a good thing as we aren't looking for an unstoppable duo now are we? Leaving minor holes, for now anyway, to Ghosts, Starmie and Zapdos is nothing to be ashamed of this early in the design.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

I'm a little lost for words on WHY Ground type is being the clear favorite.

FACT: It is weak to Ice
FACT: It does nothing to Gengar/Rotom
FACT: It would be scared of Starmie
FACT: It does nothing to Zapdos
FACT: Colossoil might as well do the same thing

These are the reasons I voted for Electric. Electric can actually hit Starmie, Zapdos, and Gengar hard while being able to absorb Ice attacks way better then a ground type would be able to. Also, it lures in Earthquakes to allow Togekiss a free switch-in DAMAGE free if played right. That in turn can allow Togekiss to setup whatever it wants to. Also, it pressures the opponent by making them think, " Hm... if I Earthquake (Perfect Mate), what if he brings in Togekiss? Maybe I should go for a Neutral move..." and then you can stay in which causes the opponent to get a bit frustrated at his misplay and he will begin to second guess other decisions throughout the match.

In short, again, Electric is the clear choice here.

 

[doominic77]

I voted for Electric for quite a few reasons.

1. Electric has good sy-energy with Togekiss
2. Electric grants a electric resistance and maybe even a electric immunity if CAP 11 has Motor Drive or Volt Absorb (wink, wink).
3. Electric has only one weakness which can easily be taken care of by Togekiss.
4. Electric has strong attacks that can do good netural damage.
5. Electric doesn't have an ice weakness like Ground.

These are the reasons Electric is the clear choice.

By the looks of it Electric won't be the main type but maybe it'll be secondary type (although I like Poison better as a secondary type).

 

[EdgeHead]

Just thought I'd mention one more positive for Fighting I neglected earlier, if this pokemon ends up being a special attacker, it lets Togekiss drop Aura Sphere and use another move to help better address it's counters, or just frees up another moveslot, which Kiss would greatly appreciate.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I voted Ground, although I understand the arguments for the other types. What put it over the top for me was immunity to Thunder Wave. Togekiss is slow and often relies on paralysis, either from Body Slam or from Thunder Wave, to outspeed. Outspeeding is even more important for Togekiss than it is for most sweepers for the obvious reason of flinching. I do not want Togekiss to be forced to run Heal Bell in order synergize with its partner. For that reason, immunity to Thunder Wave is a crucial element of this project in my opinion.

Obviously this is not my only reason for voting Ground, it's just the reason that put me over the top in what is otherwise a pretty close decision. Also of note is the potential to work well with a secondary typing: Steel and Fighting would both give 4x Stealth Rock resistance (useful given Togekiss's weakness), Steel would give double status immunity, Electric would give complementary STAB, etc.

 

[Move_Zero]

I voted for the Fighting type because, with a ground typing, it leaves both Togekiss and this new Pokemon with an Ice weakness, which is an extremely common typing, thanks to the amount of Dragons that occupy the OU metagame. A Fighting type would cover Togekiss's Rock weakness and would pose a threat to several Pokemon that counter it, like ScarfTar and Blissey.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I voted for Fighting because not only does fighting/flying have great type coverage, but it is also able to sponge rock moves aimed at togekiss; these moves are mostly physical, which togekiss has to watch out for more than unSTABed TBolts and Ice Beams. The great type coverage and possibility of a physical partner creates a duo that is able to smash through physical wall/special wall defensive cores. It destroys TTar, which is a solid threat to Togekiss, and as stated above, frees up the Aura Sphere moveslot so that togekiss can somewhat remedy the four-moveslot syndrome mentioned in the earlier typing discussion thread. Its STAB destroys Blissey, which can be a huge pain for Togekiss.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Guys, I implore you, listen to me!

Togekiss needs help with Rotom-A and Zapdos. Think about what you're doing when you vote for Fighting as the primary typing. You are giving CAP11 a type that helps with none of Togekiss's offensive problems. On top of this, Togekiss already has Aura Sphere to punch through things like Tyranitar (and Blissey at +2/4). Fighting is completely redundant offensive coverage with Togekiss! Please, for the love of all that is good in CAP, don't vote for Fighting. I wouldn't be emphasizing it so seriously if it weren't so important. Literally, it's so mind-numbingly critical to this CAP's success that I cannot believe Fighting is seeing as many votes as it is. I don't even care what you vote for, as long as it's not Fighting. Everything else helps CAP11 way more than Fighting can ever hope to.

Please, everyone, consider what you're doing! >.<

 

[reachzero]

I cannot begin to emphasis strongly enough how correct Rising_Dusk is on this point. Fighting is almost entirely useless as a partner type for Togekiss. The Rock resist is literally the only positive quality connecting it to Togekiss, and it is a quality shared by Ground. In fact, Ground helps this CAP protect Togekiss from Jolteon, too, and Fighting can only dream of that.

 

[Colonel Darren]

Ground.

It provides an excellent resistance and immunity for Togekiss, ala Rock and Electric, respectively. Earthquake can also hit these types both back for SE damage, which can help deter that Poke away. Also, ground gives a resistance to Stealth Rock, which may help a great deal if this combo is going to be doing a lot of switching (Though, Togekiss wouldn't particularly like constantly switching into rocks.).

 

[Wikey]

All of the types in the poll are walled by Rotom and Zapdos, Rising Dusk. (Well neutral hit on Zap with Electric) At least Fighting types historically get things like Payback and Stone Edge.

@smallvizier: I know a Ground CAP11 doesn't need to be like Soil but it does need to be able to get by Bliss, Rotom, Tar, and Zap to help Kiss offensively. Soil is a Ground that does this really well.

 

[Typhlosion]

I voted Steel because it resists two of Togekiss's weaknesses (Ice and Rock) and in my eyes, those are the two that are probably most worrisome for Togekiss. There are a grand total of 5 Electric types in OU (all Rotom forms count as 1) and most can be handled pretty easily with widely distributed moves. Not to mention that there is still a secondary type to consider if Electric is deemed to big a threat.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Voted Electric.

Icy Vegeta and Rising_Dusk make some incredibly important points. A Ground typing only compounds on that devastating Ice weakness, and a Fighting typing does nothing against Rotom and Zapdos, like Rising_Dusk pointed out. Also:

I voted for Ground as the primary typing. I think Ground is a really good typing to compliment Togekiss because it is immune To Electric attacks and strong agains Rock and Stealth Rocks, and Togekiss doesn't really care about non-STAB Ice Beams:

LO Starmie Ice Beam vs 252/0 Togekiss: 53.5% - 63.1%, meaning you can T-wave and Roost.

How does a sure 2HKO mean you can T-Wave and Roost? Your post didn't prove that Togekiss doesn't care about non-STAB Ice Beams; quite the opposite. It proved that even non-STAB Ice Beams can be extremely deadly against Kiss.

 

[firecape]

Voted Electric.

Icy Vegeta and Rising_Dusk make some incredibly important points. A Ground typing only compounds on that devastating Ice weakness, and a Fighting typing does nothing against Rotom and Zapdos, like Rising_Dusk pointed out. Also:

[calcs]

How does a sure 2HKO mean you can T-Wave and Roost? Your post didn't prove that Togekiss doesn't care about non-STAB Ice Beams; quite the opposite. It proved that even non-STAB Ice Beams can be extremely deadly against Kiss.

Do I need to go step by step...? You dont switch in this is assuming that you are already in.

1st turn: They use Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, you use Thunder Wave
2nd turn: They switch out with Natural Cure/ attempt to attack while you Roost
3rd turn: If they stayed in until now you either Roost again/attack/ set-up.

Also I would like to point out, as stated previously:

#1 This duo has to have some sort of weakness
#2 Even unSTAB Ice Beams are pretty rare, most Pokemon just use HP Ice, which is much weaker because of lack of having Ice Beam. Togekiss laughs at Bulky Water's Ice Beams. There are only 4 Pokemon that get Ice Beam in OU that commonly run pure offensive sets that use it.(Starmie, Suicune, Empoleon, Ttar).

 

[SJCrew]

Can anyone who voted Ground explain to me what a Ground CAP11 could do for Kiss that Colossoil couldn't? Soil can spin, resists Rock and is immune to Electric. He walls Rotom and Ttar's STABs while having EQ for Tar and Pursuit for Rotom and Blissey. He has SE for Zap. He has Taunt, Rebound, and Guts. I wasn't around for Soil's testing but I have a feeling he didn't boost Kiss to the next level.

I could have sworn I posted here explaining my reasoning for Ground. It was pretty solid too, and I don't know why it would have been deleted, but in a nutshell, it helps Togekiss with Electric types and moves in general, in addition to countering both Jirachi and TTar, which is a step in the right direction.

As for how this CAP would be different from Colossoil...for one, we know absolutely nothing about it but the hypothetical typing of Ground, so there is a whole field that has yet to be played. Secondly, Colossoil attracts Fighting types and we've already established that Fighting types in general will be a problem for Kiss and this duo in general. Fighting types are some of the strongest and most prominent offensive threats in OU, and having any one of them break the core apart annuls this entire process.

 

[Elgoo]

I voted steel (even though it's clearly not going to win) because I only see 3 major flaws. A double pseudo fighting weakness, a fire weakness, and a mediocre offensive movepool. All of which can be assesed when the secondary type/ability come around. Say, a steel/fire or steel/ghost. To me it seemed like this type had the most potential.

 

[Chameleon]

I feel that I should eleaborate a little more on why I think ground should trump fighting. First of all, fighting resists one type aimed at togekiss (rock) and lures none togekiss can resist, making it difficult to switch in. Ground resists two types for togekiss (rock, electric) and lures one (grass). Duos like celetran are built on resistances, and we can't build something like skarmbliss because they rely so heavily on stats alone.
Another reason fighting is being supported is because it beats tyranitar and blissey, the former of which is critically wounded by STAB ground moves. Grounds, like fighters, also usually get stone edge/rock slide for flying types.

All the pokemon on Togekiss' counter list from Smogon: Blissey, Cresselia, Lanturn, Jolteon, Zapdos, Electivire, Dragonite, Rotom-A, and Bronzong.
A STAB fighting type move hits 1 for S.E. damage, 4 for little/no damage, and resists none of their STABs.
A STAB Ground move hits 3 for S.E. damage, 4 for little/no damage, and resists all of those electric STABs. And I doubt Lanturn will want to fight this guy.

Of course, there is the double Ice weakness. A flaw, but horribly debilitating?
Just my thoughts.

 

[capefeather]

I get the feeling that the thought process behind a lot of the votes for Ground goes only as far as "Yes, Electric immunity - Good." Other than this, what does Ground have going for it?

-.-

Like I said before, I'm adamant about having a Rock resistance type because there's no better way to deal with Rock-type attacks from Scarf Tyranitar or whatever. I just have a feeling that having one of these types will be inevitable anyway, so we might as well put one on now (also CAP 11 would benefit ever so slightly from damage rounding error but w/e). There are pitfalls to the Rock resists, but there are pitfalls to Electric, too, and none of these options are helping with Rotom-A anyway. This is where the rest of the CAP building process comes in. In fact, even if you don't think the Rock resist is that important, having a Rock resist will open up more secondary typings, namely types weak against Rock, which will give us more breathing room when we talk more about offensive synergy for the secondary type and ability.

If any of you still disagree with me on this, I will say at least that Ground is the least evil out of the Rock resists as far as offensive synergy goes. 20 OU Pokémon resist one of Fighting and Flying, 17 resist one of Steel and Flying, and 17 resist one of Ground and Flying. For Steel + Togekiss, many of the resists are Waters. Waters are very popular. There's a reason Steel is considered a poor offensive type despite not having that many resistant types.

 

[reachzero]

"Massive Ice weakness, etc., etc."

It's probably worth pointing out at this point that for all the talk that "Ice is a great and common attacking type", almost nothing good gets STAB on Ice attacks, and even Mamoswine and Weavile are confined to using physical Ice moves, none of which is higher than base 75. For a Pokemon with naturally high SpD like Togekiss, Ice isn't such a bad weakness, since so few Pokemon can OHKO Togekiss with an Ice move.

Edit: Oh, by the way, even if Ground doesn't help all that much offensively with Zapdos or Rotom-a, it DEFINITELY helps with Jolteon, with is another big threat to Togekiss.

 

[firecape]

What Reachzero said, and this is further bolstered by that fact that Togekiss can paralyze these Pokemon then simply Roost to remove the Ice Weakness.