CAP 10 CAP 10 - Stat Spread Submissions

[Anachronism]

I recognize that my parameters are limiting, but make sure you don't make your spread too close to anyone else's or you might not make it on to the main poll anyway. Beej will probably remove a lot of similar spreads and include only a few spreads in the final poll, so make sure that you aren't too similar to anyone else's!

 

[lati0s]

@lati0s: If you have higher HP, then while both Pokemon gain the same percentage, one will have gained more HP. I think that's the point Dominion is trying to make.

Yes, but since all the stat spreads have similar tankiness ratings they will be taking similar percentages from the same attacks, so it doesn't matter if one of them gained more actual HP. They both gained the same percent, which means they both gained the same ability to take hits.

A BST between 550-570 is optimal for what we want to do. Giving a combination of stats much higher than this makes a pokemon of this typing too good, and any lower than my minimum starts to make CAP 10 a bit too underpowered. In my opinion this range is just right for what we want to accomplish here, which is make CAP 10 an effective counter without giving it the stats to become a credible sweeper.

Base stat total is a poor method for ranking stats. Overall base stat rating, as defined by X-acts applet, is a much better method of ranking stats.

 

[Dr. Attack]

I hope my stat spread isn't removed because I posted it before a lot of these new ones that are very similar. I liked the idea of high HP and high speed and basically made a toned down spread of it because I felt that a high BST would make CAP10 able to do too much at one time instead of the customizable threat that it should be.

I think at the least my spread should be included as a lower BST version of that style of spread even though the masses will probably go for the slightly beefier stats (not saying they would be wrong for doing so).

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Posted some calculations for my spread. You can view them here. Any critiques on these calculations, or on the actual spread itself, is welcome.

 

[Yllnath]

Yes, but since all the stat spreads have similar tankiness ratings they will be taking similar percentages from the same attacks, so it doesn't matter if one of them gained more actual HP. They both gained the same percent, which means they both gained the same ability to take hits.

Not entirely true if you count in EV's. I wrote a litte thing about it in the 2nd post of the thread and Rhys29 showed a perfect example through calcs why high HP/lower def allows for both more customization AND higher tankiness as well, by still using the the same number of stats across the three defensive stats. His post is on the 2nd page of the thread.

 

[Deck Knight]

I have added extensive calculations to my spread and an additional analysis on how that particular spreads and what it is good/bad at, where its weaknesses lie, etc. It would be possible for me to do a second scenario but that's going to take several hours as well.

Here is a link to the updated spread:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2532416&postcount=30

 

[Vaz]

I totally agree with where Deck is going, and is what I thought would of been the correct approach to this. Good work!

 

[Str0ngbad]

Deck, I haven't been a for plus 100 speed but your submission is amazing. Thanks for all that work.

Admiral Stalfos, I like the approach that you are taking with your spread with the exception of the Special bias. I would like to see the offenses a lot more evened out. Mostly because the difference is so noticeable that everyone would use the special side and I would like to keep that user specific. They don't have to be dead even but could you bring the SpA down a bit without losing too many important KOs to give the physical side a little love?

 

[Zystral]

As is the trend, I have added a lot more calculations as well as some more TL;DR goodness for anybody who cares to read in my Final Submission.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I have modified my submission once again, this time with damage calculations.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2533897&postcount=75

 

[hydrolphin]

I too have added more Calcs (I had most of them up yesterday morning, but forgot Metagross and Lucario). I have included completely custom sets for each threat I'm countering. Heres the link to my spread.

 

[Dominion]

Since I see no amazing difference besides the percentile damage/healing from certian moves in spreads such as 150/70/70 and 110/90/90. I'll back up Deck Knight's. I like the numbers come off of the Defensive Calcs the most. And the rest is just Gravy (And I love gravy).

I'm still a tad concerned about HP EV's. They don't measure up in comparison to Defense/S.Defense EVs when using a spread like DK's. Meaning, each extra point into HP has a slightly less impact on the over all defense of this pokemon if it's HP is naturally high.

Blissey typically puts 0 EVs into HP due to it's already massive HP. This CAP would be in a, while not as extreme, similar state. It's not the biggest issue in the world, and it's certainly not going to stop this CAP, but do we want that?

 

[familyguyman]

Since I see no amazing difference besides the percentile damage/healing from certian moves in spreads such as 150/70/70 and 110/90/90. I'll back up Deck Knight's. I like the numbers come off of the Defensive Calcs the most. And the rest is just Gravy (And I love gravy).

I'm still a tad concerned about HP EV's. They don't measure up in comparison to Defense/S.Defense EVs when using a spread like DK's. Meaning, each extra point into HP has a slightly less impact on the over all defense of this pokemon if it's HP is naturally high.

Blissey typically puts 0 EVs into HP due to it's already massive HP. This CAP would be in a, while not as extreme, similar state. It's not the biggest issue in the world, and it's certainly not going to stop this CAP, but do we want that?

I think so. Big HP means adding EVs to defense but it's often better to focus on one defense over the other meaning it's harder to be a general wall which we don't want. That's how I see it at least.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Just added Offensive and Defensive calculation on my first stat spread here. It's really taking me longer than I would like to do these calculations and they're probably more I could add into it.

 

[Anachronism]

Well, I would limit based on BSR, but basically everyone has the same BSR, and people have to remember that BSR doesn't accurately reflect the way that EVs affect stats. For example, something like Blissey, who has an absolutely abysmal defense stat ends up being a formidable wall even on the physical side thanks to full def investment. The way I understand it, you can't really show that with the BSR, so the BSR becomes much less useful when dealing with Blissey-like defensive stats as opposed to Celebi or Jirachi-like ones. Also, I think that since pretty much most of the BSRs are the same, then the people who can make their spreads the most efficient should be the winners.

It is interesting that the guy with the highest BST spread is the one who argues against BST's use isn't it?

EDIT: Also, can someone explain to me why the applet shows a bias and yields different numbers even when the stats are identical? For example, when I put in all 100's it says that it has a slight physical bias and the physical and special tankiness numbers don't match.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I have updated my submission for hopefully the last time with countless calculations made against virtually every single threat in the OU environment that I could think of. Hopefully that'll be of interest to someone, so that I didn't do it all for nothing. Cheers!

 

[Deck Knight]

EDIT: Also, can someone explain to me why the applet shows a bias and yields different numbers even when the stats are identical? For example, when I put in all 100's it says that it has a slight physical bias and the physical and special tankiness numbers don't match.

When X-Act did his second update to the Stat Calculator he realized that special attacks were slightly better than physical attacks in Pokemon, so even with equal stats a Pokemon will have an extremely slight physical bias because they take special attacks less effectively than physical ones.

This will probably change when Gen5 comes out, since the average stats of all pokemon will be adjusted by whatever is in the new generation. Some of our spreads will probably be illegal then because of it lol.

 

[Rhys29]

Updated my spread. The defenses are very similar to Lati0s' spread, which is my new preferred for +100 Speed spreads, but I still keep my original speed and offense. I will try to get some standard calcs but for now you can compare it to now is Lati0s', which takes slightly more than my spread (about the same on the special side, I'll check other moves). The new defensive spread takes hits better than every other spread listed with heavy investments. All you have to check is Adamant SD LO Lucario's Close Combat and you'll see the dramatic difference.

@Gothic_Togekiss: I don't know why you would make a spread that takes hits worse than my first spread and then just pump up the Sp.A. To find a medium, I increased my Sp.A to your level (base 94). Unless you have other reasons, I think it would be better if you worked more with your original spread. I can't really argue the increase of Sp.A too much.

 

[Thoughts]

My Submission :

97 HP / 82 Att / 102 Def / 81 SAtt / 104 SDef / 111 Spe

Thoughts :
This came out no where near what I originally intended ;_; go me. Originally I was going for a solid 110 HP and a 105 Speed. But it struck me that maybe I could try a defensive spread similar to Heatran(ish). So I got a 97/102/104 with a bit a tinkering, near 100 defenses but a little bit more in each stat so when using a +nature in the given stat, we get a bit more of a boost (not much though). The final stat might be different though cause I still have a lot of ideas but I think I might stick to these.
The offensive stats were with 105 in mind. I decided that maybe I could just use 101 (lol centralization) but seeing that (S)Att would have been still the same I moved it back to 105. I then decided to push it a bit further so it went up to 111 and there it stays for now :D

Im doing my calcs now so just gimme a few (hours/days) ^^

40 EV Investment, Neutral Nature, Leftovers

Offensive Calcs

Scizor
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 248/0 Adamant Scizor : 102.4% - 121.8%
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 32/0 Adamant Scizor : 102.4% - 121.8%

Tyranitar
40 Pokemon Superpower vs. 4/0 Jolly Tyranitar : 83% - 98.2%
40 Pokemon Superpower vs. 160/0 Adamant Tyranitar : 74.5% - 88.2%
40 Pokemon Superpower vs. 252/0 Quiet Tyranitar : 70.3% - 83.2%
40 Pokemon Superpower vs. 252/40 Careful Tyranitar : 67.3% - 80.2%

Salamence
40 Pokemon Ice Beam vs. Naive Salamence : 100.3% - 118.4%
40 Pokemon Ice Beam vs. 80/0 Rash Salamence : 94.6% - 111.7%
40 Pokemon Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Jolly Salamence : 75.1% - 89.3%

Heatran
40 Pokemon Surf vs. Naive Heatran : 60.1% - 71.2%
40 Pokemon Surf vs. 4/0 Timid Heatran : 54.3% - 64.8%
40 Pokemon Surf vs. 244/12 Calm Heatran : 41.1% - 49%
40 Pokemon Surf vs. Timid Heatran : 54.5% - 65%
40 Pokemon Surf vs. 128/0 Modest Heatran : 49.6% - 59.2%

Latias
40 Pokemon Ice Punch vs. 4/0 Timid Latias : 35.1% - 41.7%
40 Pokemon Ice Punch vs. 128/0 Timid Latias : 31.8% - 37.8%

Gyarados
40 Pokemon Thunderbolt vs. Adamant Gyarados : 112.4% - 131.7%
40 Pokemon Thunderbolt vs. 156/0 Adamant Gyarados : 100.5% - 117.8%
40 Pokemon Thunderbolt vs. 248/0 Impish Gyarados : 94.7% - 110.9%
40 Pokemon Thunderbolt vs. 4/0 Adamant Gyarados : 112% - 131.3%
40 Pokemon Thunderbol vs. 72/0 Adamant Gyarados : 106.6% - 124.9%

Jirachi
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 76/0 Timid Jirachi : 34.4% - 40.6%
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 80/0 Jolly Jirachi : 34.3% - 40.4%
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. Naive Jirachi : 39.9% - 47.5%

Metagross
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 252/0 Adamant Metagross : 37.4% - 44%
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 112/0 Adamant Metagross : 41.3% - 48.6%
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. Naughty Metagross : 49.8% - 59.1%
40 Pokemon Flamethrower vs. 252/64 Impish Metagross : 34.1% - 40.7%

Gengar
40 Pokemon Shadow Ball vs. Timid Gengar : 50.6% - 59.8%
40 Pokemon Shadow Ball vs. 4/0 Timid Gengar : 50.4% - 59.5%

Swampert
40 Pokemon Grass Knot vs. 252/0 Relaxed Swampert : 55.4% - 66.3%
40 Pokemon Grass Knot vs. 252/216 Careful Swampert : 40.6% - 48.5%
40 Pokemon Grass Knot vs. 240/0 Impish Swampert : 55.9% - 66.8%
40 Pokemon Grass Knot vs. 136/0 Adamant Swampert : 59.7% - 71.5%

 

[WaffleChan]

HP: 112
ATK:80
DEF:90
SPA:80
SPD:90
SPE:103
BST: 555

Was abot to post a 115/82/90/80/90/103 Submission but Dominion has pretty much exactly the same thing so my support goes behind him. Deck Knights is pretty similiar with the trade off of HP and Defenses, so he's a very close second. Both of them have near perfect stat spreads in my opinion so either one will provide for an excellent CAP.

 

[petrie911]

The new defensive spread takes hits better than every other spread listed with heavy investments. All you have to check is Adamant SD LO Lucario's Close Combat and you'll see the dramatic difference.

Does that include running enough speed to outspeed Lucario? Also, 28% of Lucario run Jolly. Can it take a +2 Jolly LO CC?

While we're at it, can it take 2 Draco Meteors from Modest Specs Latias? If you want it to counter Latias, you'll need to be able to take those hits.

Actually, to any spread with less than 110 speed, can your spread take two hits from Specs Latias' Draco Meteor? For those with less than 100, how does it stand up to DM+EQ from MixMence? If you're getting 2HKO'd by these Pokemon before you can even act, you're not doing your job as a counter. The concept did specify that the Pokemon should be able to be made to counter anything. The idea of not being able to counter everything at once is a bit harder to show, but you should be able to show that, for the top OUs, you actually can switch in, take any necessary hits, and force the opponent to switch to something else.

 

[Deck Knight]

Does that include running enough speed to outspeed Lucario? Also, 28% of Lucario run Jolly. Can it take a +2 Jolly LO CC?

While we're at it, can it take 2 Draco Meteors from Modest Specs Latias? If you want it to counter Latias, you'll need to be able to take those hits.

Actually, to any spread with less than 110 speed, can your spread take two hits from Specs Latias' Draco Meteor? For those with less than 100, how does it stand up to DM+EQ from MixMence? If you're getting 2HKO'd by these Pokemon before you can even act, you're not doing your job as a counter. The concept did specify that the Pokemon should be able to be made to counter anything. The idea of not being able to counter everything at once is a bit harder to show, but you should be able to show that, for the top OUs, you actually can switch in, take any necessary hits, and force the opponent to switch to something else.

It's highly unlikely any spread in the "Very Good" category can survive two boosted Draco Meteor's from Latias while simultaneously being able to dispatch it effectively. The only real bet on that one is to run a lower speed and Choice Scarf with Ice Punch/X-Scissor or even lol Outrage. Either that or be scarfed and be able to Thunder Wave it and then switch to Blissey.

As far as Rhys' general idea, there are three general weaknesses as you continue to increase HP at the expense of Defenses. The first weakness is that your unprotected defense gets greatly diminished returns, e.g. If you had to eat Earthquake followed by Grass Knot, one of the two attacks would do much, much more damage than if your defenses were balanced. You also need to invest more EVs in them to get up to parity. The other weakness is that Life Orb takes a massive chunk out of your defensive ability because the absolute damage dealt to the Pokemon is higher. For example if Dusknoir loses 10% of its HP it has lost 29 HP, but attacks are only doing 75-150 damage to it. CAP10 is losing 63-70 HP and attacks are doing 300-450 damage. The other weakness is that Leech Seed heals a lot more damage for your opponent, but once you get about 100 Base HP that starts being an issue. Just watch out for SubSeed Sceptile lol.

 

[ferron]

I spent a lot of time pondering a set that could work effectively and I believe I have found one.

(HP / Att / Def / Sp.A / Sp.D / Spe)
(254 / 95 / 44 / 94 / 45 / 87)
Total BST: 560
​

​

you do realize that your bst is 619 and not 560, right?

also, doubt that any people will really support a new blissey....

 

[petrie911]

I see...with max investment it does barely manage to take both of those attacks. Well, admittedly, Luke has a 7.7% to KO and Latias has a .77% to KO, but those are on the same or lower order as getting critted, so it's not a huge deal. On the other hand...

Shuca Berry can take MixMence as long as it goes for EQ. I can provide calcs on MixMence. It can also use Ice Shard to bring it down without unnecessary speed and lowering it's offenses. No offense, you probably should have read my first post before you responded as those are the two specific examples I used in my OP.

An unSTAB Ice Shard does not get you nearly as far as you'd think. Even with 252+ investment, your Ice Shard OHKOs Salamence only 20% of the time after SR+1 LO recoil. Mence will die after his second attack KOs you, though, so I suppose that is some consolation. This is also about your only chance, as with 4/252/252 +sdef, New Mixmence is over 80% to 2HKO with DM+Outrage, by my calculation.

Still, MixMence is hard to counter regardless, and your spread does do what it puports to. The 619 BST is a touch high, though.

But still, my same questions stand to everyone else.

 

[Rhys29]

Responses

Does that include running enough speed to outspeed Lucario? Also, 28% of Lucario run Jolly. Can it take a +2 Jolly LO CC?

It can survive Adamant Lucario's CC with SR down and Leftovers, has enough power to OHKO with Earthquake if it goes for the CC. Scarf with 8 Ev's investment also outruns Jolly so if you don't want to risk the opponent predicting and hitting with Extremespeed/Crunch first you can just outrun and OHKO with Earthquake.

While we're at it, can it take 2 Draco Meteors from Modest Specs Latias? If you want it to counter Latias, you'll need to be able to take those hits.

Yes, it's not 2HKO'd by Modest Specs Latias' Draco Meteor with SR down and a turn of Leftovers recovery.

Actually, to any spread with less than 110 speed, can your spread take two hits from Specs Latias' Draco Meteor? For those with less than 100, how does it stand up to DM+EQ from MixMence? If you're getting 2HKO'd by these Pokemon before you can even act, you're not doing your job as a counter. The concept did specify that the Pokemon should be able to be made to counter anything. The idea of not being able to counter everything at once is a bit harder to show, but you should be able to show that, for the top OUs, you actually can switch in, take any necessary hits, and force the opponent to switch to something else.

Shuca Berry can take MixMence as long as it goes for EQ. I can provide calcs on MixMence. It can also use Ice Shard to bring it down without unnecessary speed and lowering it's offenses. No offense, you probably should have read my first post before you responded as those are the two specific examples I used in my OP.

It's highly unlikely any spread in the "Very Good" category can survive two boosted Draco Meteor's from Latias while simultaneously being able to dispatch it effectively.

Rest on the second hit and it can't do jack shit to you after that. Being faster only beats it in rare situations where someone would keep their hit and run poke in to die to a garaunteed OHKO from a faster opponent. Sucker Punch is always an option too.

As far as Rhys' general idea, there are three general weaknesses as you continue to increase HP at the expense of Defenses. The first weakness is that your unprotected defense gets greatly diminished returns, e.g. If you had to eat Earthquake followed by Grass Knot, one of the two attacks would do much, much more damage than if your defenses were balanced. You also need to invest more EVs in them to get up to parity. The other weakness is that Life Orb takes a massive chunk out of your defensive ability because the absolute damage dealt to the Pokemon is higher. For example if Dusknoir loses 10% of its HP it has lost 29 HP, but attacks are only doing 75-150 damage to it. CAP10 is losing 63-70 HP and attacks are doing 300-450 damage. The other weakness is that Leech Seed heals a lot more damage for your opponent, but once you get about 100 Base HP that starts being an issue. Just watch out for SubSeed Sceptile lol.

Woah woah woah, not my concept. Lati0s' spread is what led me to my spread.

Back to your argument. The amount of damage resisted from either of those hits on my set would probably even out with the more powerful hit. I'll do some calcs. Life Orb deals %, so as Lati0s has been pointing out, things that deal % damage (such as SR and Spikes) deal the exact same to my spread as they would to your spread %wise. My spread has a huge amount of HP, so losing 100 HP would deal a significant chunk to your spreads, it's dealing roughly 1/7th of my spreads potential max HP. Leech Seed can be dealt with via Magic Coat, Taunt, or even Rapid Spin though I do not believe we'd give it to CAP10. And the only things using Leech Seed are Grass attackers, I would think Seed Bomb or Grass Knot would be more deadly. You also don't list Pain Split which can take a huge toll on this spread, same with Endeaver. I've already conceptualized the weaknesses of high HP.

However, my spread is more defensive against everything else. Which is about 99% of the metagame. These tiny little points don't mean anything when you take about 10% less from attacks like Adamant Lucario's Close Combat.

also, doubt that any people will really support a new blissey....

I would agree if you could point out how 255 HP / 10 Def / 135 Sp.D = 254 HP / 44 Def / 45 Sp.D. Blissey's base Sp.D is literally three times higher than the spread I have suggested. It is most certainly not the next in line. Fix'd the bst btw, but I hate editing my OP as it keeps adding random spaces everywhere for no reason.

An unSTAB Ice Shard does not get you nearly as far as you'd think.

Choice Band OHKO's it and my spread has more than enough bulk to take anything MixMence can dish out. There is always Scarfing + Ice Beam to deal with it since the lower base 87 acts as a lure.

Still, MixMence is hard to counter regardless, and your spread does do what it puports to. The 619 BST is a touch high, though.

I agree 619 is a tad high, I was really against it at first. Though if we're trying to counter everything in OU, we might need to push the boundaries in terms of bst.