XY UU Beta Discussion (Read post #32)

[alexwolf]

I actually found one, which proved to be a cool Pokemon in this metagame:

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

Great check to Mega Heracross, taking 32.5 - 39% from Adamant 252 Atk Rock Blast and easily 2HKOing back with Play Rough. It also checks a ton of common physical attackers, such as Zygarde, Sharpedo, Haxorus, Mega Medicham, and Mega Absol. Intimidate is great in this meta and so is Heal Bell support. I have been using a Chansey + Mega Blastoise + Granbull core and it has been doing really well, with Mega Blastoise being physically defensive, helping to deal with Knock Off users and countering the only physical Dark-type that Granbull can't handle, Bisharp. This core has Wish, Heal Bell, Rapid Spin, Toxic, Thunder Wave, offering almost everything you would want in terms of support, and is not easy set up bait either, as Granbull and Mega Blastoise have very respectable offensive presence. Throw in a hazard setter, a wallbreaker, and a sweeper, and you have a nice balanced team.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Do you guys find rapid spin or defog easier to fit on teams? I find Defog is a lot better than rapid spin. At the expense of losing my own hazards, I get to remove all hazards without worrying about "spin-blocking," thoughts?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Tbh there arent really many choices for either. Scizor, skarmory, mandibuzz, excadrill, starmie, donphan (!), latios are all locked up in ou. All you have in uu are blastoise, latias, forretress and tentacruel. Kabutops would be useful but now that drizzle is banned it isnt that good. I find that the best way to combat hazards is with a fast taunt lead+offensive presence. If you dont give the opponent a chance to setup or you at least have something that can punish them for giving you a free turn (think swords dance bisharp) you should be fine. It should be noted that stuff like double dance thundurus dont really need much anti-hazard support since they usually are only coming in once in a match. Overall hazards arent really an issue, stealth rock can be managed by not using too many stuff that are horribly weak to it like staraptor and if anything spike stacking is kinda dangerous for you when you really dont want to give a free turn to anything while using sticky web is just dumb in a tier where bisharp and web immune mons are everywhere (and your only choices to setup it are leavanny and... shuckle).

 

[Wisdomseyes]

because mawile, pinsir and kangaskhan were used enough in ou to make the ou cutoff...? plus kanga's usage was based off 3-months stats, and it clearly was used as fuck in november. megas aren't tiered separately from their base forms, the sole exception being that if a mega is deemed overpowered the stone will be banned instead.

kanga will probably go down after january since her usage will hit rock bottom anyway. not that she can really do much in uu...

Clearly you didn't read what I said.

"Mawile and Pinser I can understand because of the mega-stones (which I feel are the things that should be ban, since both of these pokemon are not UU or OU worthy without them in many cases)"

The mega stones are exactly like any other alternate form of a pokemon, and exactly like the Lati's with soul dew. Pinser and shouldn't be ban from NU (and further forced to ply exclusively in OU and ubers) because of it's mega, Mawile shouldn't be ban from UU because of its mega. Those pokemon aren't strong enough to compete without those specific items.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Clearly you didn't read what I said.

"Mawile and Pinser I can understand because of the mega-stones (which I feel are the things that should be ban, since both of these pokemon are not UU or OU worthy without them in many cases)"

The mega stones are exactly like any other alternate form of a pokemon, and exactly like the Lati's with soul dew. Pinser and shouldn't be ban from NU (and further forced to ply exclusively in OU and ubers) because of it's mega, Mawile shouldn't be ban from UU because of its mega. Those pokemon aren't strong enough to compete without those specific items.

No they are not, they are just items, and while the items can be banned if theyre proven to be broken they have nothing to do with the pokemon tier. Mawile and pinsir are ou because they are used a lot, it doesnt matter what item they are using. This has already been explained countless of times.

 

[Anty]

Clearly you didn't read what I said.

"Mawile and Pinser I can understand because of the mega-stones (which I feel are the things that should be ban, since both of these pokemon are not UU or OU worthy without them in many cases)"

The mega stones are exactly like any other alternate form of a pokemon, and exactly like the Lati's with soul dew. Pinser and shouldn't be ban from NU (and further forced to ply exclusively in OU and ubers) because of it's mega, Mawile shouldn't be ban from UU because of its mega. Those pokemon aren't strong enough to compete without those specific items.

They really shouldnt go down, the only items to get banned (soul dew, deepseascale (gen4 lc)) would make them ubers. Also using your argument, you could say pokemon that are used a lot have megastones that are hardly used (alakazam), that means that mega alakazam should go down to uu. You can now use alakazam if its holding the mega stone and mega evolves

edit: ninjad, and sbb explained it better...

 

[RotomPoison]

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind

Now this is something that people need to start using. Great defenses, high HP, Slack Off, able to set up sand, set up Stealth Rock, and phaze. (I leave it as Sand Force because the team I used was hurt more by sand but liked having a good physical wall.) I can see this thing doing what Gligar wished it could do last gen.

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Sleep Talk / who cares

Death to everything. Literally. GG UU.

Also stop the mega stone discussion because it will be handled on a case by case basis, if at all. It is nothing like Soul Dew, stop.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Because of the lack of good spinners/defoggers and the amount of OU worthy powerhouses, Hyper Offense is easily one of the best playstyles there are right now. Maybe the inevitable Deoxys ban will change that..but there are still a lot of other legal HO leads that still work, just not nearly as well. One of the easiest archetypes to use is Deoxys-S/Bisharp/3 Sweepers/Spinblocker

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Clearly you didn't read what I said.

"Mawile and Pinser I can understand because of the mega-stones (which I feel are the things that should be ban, since both of these pokemon are not UU or OU worthy without them in many cases)"

The mega stones are exactly like any other alternate form of a pokemon, and exactly like the Lati's with soul dew. Pinser and shouldn't be ban from NU (and further forced to ply exclusively in OU and ubers) because of it's mega, Mawile shouldn't be ban from UU because of its mega. Those pokemon aren't strong enough to compete without those specific items.

i could be that dude using stuff like cb mawile and sash pinsir in ou, it's weighted the same as mawilite mawile and pinsirite pinsir. bottom line is, mawile and pinsir are used in ou, because like it or not, the stuff you send out immediately isn't mega-mawile and mega-pinsir, just good ol' mawile and pinsir. i could bother to not evolve them in the entire match if i so wanted, even if i held the stone.

the lati's with soul dew is a different thing because soul dew provides an instant stat boost to latios and latias. you start off with latios and latias with an automatic 'calm mind' under your belt without having to do anything. you can't say the same for mawile and pinsir.

it's probably 'unfair' to you that mawile and pinsir are stuck in ou because of their mevos, but if say some random crap (say, metang) suddenly had access to an item that makes it god-overwhelmingly powerful, are you going to go "noooooooo we should ban that item metang shouldn't be banned from NU i love metanggggg"? the only tier that's based on power is ubers, and ubers is a banlist, which is why it's based on power. tiers are based on usage, not power. if metang had enough usage to top OU for 3 months, it will be considered OU. likewise, this is also the exact same reason that we had 1 amazing week of abusing the living fuck out of kyurem-b.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I have to say that Mawile with Sheer Force and Swords Dance would have been very cool in UU :(

Still, there is something that is worth looking, his name is Barbaracle.
He is the best Shell Smasher in the game even in OU where he has to compete with Cloyster and Breloom and Conkeldurr are ready for ruining his day.
In UU where all these negative factors are gone i can see Barbaracle becoming a top tier mon, really.

 

[alexwolf]

Because of the lack of good spinners/defoggers and the amount of OU worthy powerhouses, Hyper Offense is easily one of the best playstyles there are right now. Maybe the inevitable Deoxys ban will change that..but there are still a lot of other legal HO leads that still work, just not nearly as well. One of the easiest archetypes to use is Deoxys-S/Bisharp/3 Sweepers/Spinblocker

Lack of good spinners / defoggers? Mega Blastoise is the perfect spinner, and Latias is an excellent Defog user. Empoleon, Flygon, and Tentacruel work too and are good / viable Pokemon.

 

[Patrick1088]

I actually found one, which proved to be a cool Pokemon in this metagame:

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell
- Fire Punch / Earthquake

Great check to Mega Heracross, taking 32.5 - 39% from Adamant 252 Atk Rock Blast and easily 2HKOing back with Play Rough. It also checks a ton of common physical attackers, such as Zygarde, Sharpedo, Haxorus, Mega Medicham, and Mega Absol. Intimidate is great in this meta and so is Heal Bell support. I have been using a Chansey + Mega Blastoise + Granbull core and it has been doing really well, with Mega Blastoise being physically defensive, helping to deal with Knock Off users and countering the only physical Dark-type that Granbull can't handle, Bisharp. This core has Wish, Heal Bell, Rapid Spin, Toxic, Thunder Wave, offering almost everything you would want in terms of support, and is not easy set up bait either, as Granbull and Mega Blastoise have very respectable offensive presence. Throw in a hazard setter, a wallbreaker, and a sweeper, and you have a nice balanced team.

Granbulk is great. I ran him with umbreon and they form a great core. My only tidbit was that granbulls not bulky enough on the special side so thats why i leave the heal bell support to umbreon/chansey.

But i was running a resttalk impish bull with earthquake for coverage. The only thing it couldnt hit neutrally was bronzong. I find that max def is needed since it is only neutral to mega medichams stab psychic move. And you need ti watch out for bullet punch...

 

[DTC]

Lack of good spinners / defoggers? Mega Blastoise is the perfect spinner, and Latias is an excellent Defog user. Empoleon, Flygon, and Tentacruel work too and are good / viable Pokemon.

If only Tentacruel was actually UU. Forretress isn't UU either for the person that mentioned it.

The most viable spinners / Defog Pokemon are Latias, Mega Blastoise, Empoleon, Zapdos, and Crobat, which is a decent list. The problem with Rapid Spin Mega Blastoise is it has no recovery (which you want on a spinner), and it's limited in the teams you can use it on because there are other amazing Mega Pokemon. Defog Flygon is sort of average; yea it's super resistant to hazards, but using Defog means you're not choiced, and Flygon really wants the boost from Choice Scarf or Choice Band.

 

[alexwolf]

If only Tentacruel was actually UU. Forretress isn't UU either for the person that mentioned it.

The most viable spinners / Defog Pokemon are Latias, Mega Blastoise, Empoleon, Zapdos, and Crobat, which is a decent list. The problem with Rapid Spin Mega Blastoise is it has no recovery (which you want on a spinner), and it's limited in the teams you can use it on because there are other amazing Mega Pokemon. Defog Flygon is sort of average; yea it's super resistant to hazards, but using Defog means you're not choiced, and Flygon really wants the boost from Choice Scarf or Choice Band.

Yeah my bad on Tentacruel. Flygon of course has its problems, but it's viable and a great way to get rid of hazards. U-turn, Roost, Defog, and EQ is a decent set, and while it may not hit hard, this is not it's purpose in the first place. Don't forget Mew btw, one of the best bulky Defog users.

 

[DarkSlay]

Lack of good spinners / defoggers? Mega Blastoise is the perfect spinner, and Latias is an excellent Defog user. Empoleon, Flygon, and Tentacruel work too and are good / viable Pokemon.

Tentacruel is actually still OU. We'll see what happens when three-month usage statistics are out (we might also get Donphan), but right now it's just MegaBlastoise as the best choice for Rapid Spin. Not much else other than Hitmontop. There's a lot of viable Defog users though, including your list plus Zapdos and Crobat.

EDIT: Late on the Tentacruel thing, ignore that.

Re: MegaHeracross checks, Granbull is a great choice. Can switch in, take hits defensively and threaten it offensively. Not many Pokemon can do that, that's for sure. Have to be careful with Bisharp running around, though, considering +1 Iron Head is a OHKO. Also, Granbull does lose to SD MegaHeracross, as +1 MegaHeracross does a whopping 97.6 - 115.8% damage with Rock Blast (and is faster). Regarding your Granbull / Chansey / MegaToise core, I'm curious as to what your spread is for MegaBlastoise. 252 HP / 252 SpA variants are 2HKO'd by most Bisharp with Knock Off, so using it to combat Bisharp is a bit shaky. Another possible selection to check MegaHeracross is Weezing.

Weezing @ Black Sludge
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Nature: Bold
Moveset:
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Pain Split

Takes aroun 28% maximum from Pin Missile after Black Sludge recovery. It's not 2HKO'd by Rock Blast either and probably not OHKO'd by +2 Rock Blast after SR (6.3% chance to OHKO). It can then Pain Split back its health and Will-O-Wisp on the next turn, essentially crippling MegaHera for the rest of the match. Fire Blast 2HKO's all max Speed variants while 3HKO'ing 252 HP variants. Like most MegaHeracross checks, it will eventually go down, but not without either KO'ing MegaHera or crippling it. Resisting Fairy and hitting it for SE damage is also pretty cool.

EDIT2: alexwolf Ah, I see. Must have missed that. And my apologies, for some reason I was under the impression that Knock Off had a consistent 97.5 BP on MegaEvos, since they technically are still holding an item. Forget that then.

 

[alexwolf]

DarkSlay, i am using physically defensive Mega Blastoise (already mentioned in my first post). Also, LO Adamant Bisharp can't 2HKO max HP Mega Blastoise because Knock Off has only 65 BP against MEvos. However, if Bisharp uses SD as Blastoise comes in, it can OHKO it with Sucker Punch after SR (physically defensive easily lives and OHKOes back with Aura Sphere).

 

[Smurf.]

Aggron (F) @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Head

monster set. get in and set up. lol at mega heracross trying to revenge. fuck shit up.
much hurt. many deaths.

 

[Ash Borer]

is mence UU yet? it will be soon :) It has a really cool defog set

Salamence @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
evs: 252 atk / 4 hp / 252 spe
Nature: Naive
- Defog
- Dragon Rush
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast / Iron Tail

You should be using it to defog mostly, so very often your opponent's evasion is a 0.75x, and at that point Dragon Rush, Fire blast, and Iron Tail always hit. This lets you do a shitload of damage with a life orb. LEfties make you more hazard resistant, but make it a bit obvious youre a more defensive/utility set. Intimidate makes you pretty physically bulky. EQ is for steel types, and hitting stuff if there isnt an evasion drop. Iron Tail destroys florges and whatever, while fire blast covers some other steels.

 

[Srn]

Aggron (F) @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Relaxed Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Iron Head

monster set. get in and set up. lol at mega heracross trying to revenge. fuck shit up.
much hurt. many deaths.

But why relaxed? Why not sassy?

 

[Wisdomseyes]

i could be that dude using stuff like cb mawile and sash pinsir in ou, it's weighted the same as mawilite mawile and pinsirite pinsir. bottom line is, mawile and pinsir are used in ou, because like it or not, the stuff you send out immediately isn't mega-mawile and mega-pinsir, just good ol' mawile and pinsir. i could bother to not evolve them in the entire match if i so wanted, even if i held the stone.

the lati's with soul dew is a different thing because soul dew provides an instant stat boost to latios and latias. you start off with latios and latias with an automatic 'calm mind' under your belt without having to do anything. you can't say the same for mawile and pinsir.

it's probably 'unfair' to you that mawile and pinsir are stuck in ou because of their mevos, but if say some random crap (say, metang) suddenly had access to an item that makes it god-overwhelmingly powerful, are you going to go "noooooooo we should ban that item metang shouldn't be banned from NU i love metanggggg"? the only tier that's based on power is ubers, and ubers is a banlist, which is why it's based on power. tiers are based on usage, not power. if metang had enough usage to top OU for 3 months, it will be considered OU. likewise, this is also the exact same reason that we had 1 amazing week of abusing the living fuck out of kyurem-b.

1. You can weight it however you feel, that doesn't change the fact that Pinser is not an OU pokemon. If the megastone was never made, sash pinser would never be played, and the only reason you WOULD do that is to bluff a megastone. And then what? Sashed pinser is still not OU. Banded Pinser is still not OU. The pokemon is not OU in any way. Mega pinser is, it isn't.

2. Regarding the latis, you are almost right. The only reason that they are somewhat different is because they start with a defensive boost, so they can switch in on a special attack more easily. Leading with a mega, mega evolving prior in the battle, and a plethora of other things make mega evolutions "automatic", and believe it or not, there is tactical reason to NOT mega evolve, and that includes mawile and pinser. Neither of these pokemon are viable in OU, so don't use what I just said as an example of how they are, but typing and ability mean a lot in switching in and out, which both need.

3. Khangaskanite and Gengarite were ban from OU because they were voted to be to powerful for OU. They did not ban Gengar or Khangaskan, and as much as you would like to sit on your high horse and tell me I am wrong for saying mawile and pinser are not OU, that was how it was decided in the past... and what do you know I have not seen khangaskan in OU since... probably because khangaskhan is still an NU pokemon like it was. Gengar is still an OU worthy pokemon, but isn't on every team.

All i am saying is that you can claim they don't have immediate effect, but in most games they get a change to have imidiate effect. Using a mega or playing against megas enough times you will see that. Starting the game, volt switching, "revenge kill" type switching, or really any time you are allowed to attack is enough for an "immediate effect"... and that is a lot of the time

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Oh, forretress and tentacruel are still OU, lol Why, dam it, why!. Nvm then, that makes the list of spinners and defoggers even shorter. Theres no doubt that mega blastoise is the top choice for any team that lacks a mega and those that do will most likely go for latias or zapdos. Flygon and empoleon are decent choices but i have yet to see a good set for them. Once the meta stabilizes im sure they will come to relevance though. I am honestly not sure about mew. On one hand it is very bulky and has plenty of move options, on the other hand its typing is absolute poop. Latias at least is a dragon so it compensates for that, but mew eh. Maybe its sheer diversity will give it a niche just like last gen but as long as latias is in the tier it has a lot of competition to face. Something funny is that assault vest hitmontop could actually be a thing due to intimidate. Hell it has a bunch of priority moves so its not like it doesnt fit in XY anyway. Theres also xatu which seems to be forgotten now. It requires prediction to work and its typing is not the best but magic bounce makes it a great switch in for stall teams (now that kyurem b is banned those are becoming a thing) and an excellent dual screen user. Something that i think would also work is vullaby. With eviolite its almost as bulky as mandibuzz while having the same typing. It can still hit things hard with foul play so its not really that bad.

1. You can weight it however you feel, that doesn't change the fact that Pinser is not an OU pokemon. If the megastone was never made, sash pinser would never be played, and the only reason you WOULD do that is to bluff a megastone. And then what? Sashed pinser is still not OU. Banded Pinser is still not OU. The pokemon is not OU in any way. Mega pinser is, it isn't.

2. Regarding the latis, you are almost right. The only reason that they are somewhat different is because they start with a defensive boost, so they can switch in on a special attack more easily. Leading with a mega, mega evolving prior in the battle, and a plethora of other things make mega evolutions "automatic", and believe it or not, there is tactical reason to NOT mega evolve, and that includes mawile and pinser. Neither of these pokemon are viable in OU, so don't use what I just said as an example of how they are, but typing and ability mean a lot in switching in and out, which both need.

3. Khangaskanite and Gengarite were ban from OU because they were voted to be to powerful for OU. They did not ban Gengar or Khangaskan, and as much as you would like to sit on your high horse and tell me I am wrong for saying mawile and pinser are not OU, that was how it was decided in the past... and what do you know I have not seen khangaskan in OU since... probably because khangaskhan is still an NU pokemon like it was. Gengar is still an OU worthy pokemon, but isn't on every team.

All i am saying is that you can claim they don't have immediate effect, but in most games they get a change to have imidiate effect. Using a mega or playing against megas enough times you will see that. Starting the game, volt switching, "revenge kill" type switching, or really any time you are allowed to attack is enough for an "immediate effect"... and that is a lot of the time

Stop

 

[Jaguar360]

But why relaxed? Why not sassy?

Relaxed gives Aggron a much higher stat boost overall since its defense base stat is way higher than its Special Defense's.

 

[Arcticblast]

Wisdomseyes, you're missing the point. Mawile and Pinsir will not drop from OU because they are OU by usage. Why? Mega Evolution is an in-battle occurrence. Look at your team when you're at Team Preview. Is that a Mega Mawile or a Mega Charizard? No, it's a regular Mawile or a regular Charizard. Bringing the base form to battle is required to have access to the Mega Evolution of that Pokemon - hence things like Mawile make the OU cutoff. You might then be tempted to say "But you can consider Mawile @ Mawilite and Mawile @ Choice Band to be two different Pokemon!" This is not true. They are the same Pokemon. You can only Mega Evolve once, but that doesn't stop you from bringing more than one Mega Stone holder to battle. If you brought Mawile @ Mawilite and Pinsir @ Pinsirite into battle but only Mega Evolved Mawile, would that Pinsir count as a regular Pinsir or a Mega Pinsir with regards to tiering?

tl;dr the base Pokemon must be used if you with to use the Mega Evolution.

 

[Wisdomseyes]

I mean I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. The idea of megastones not being ban really only affects the NU metagame

 

[RotomPoison]

I mean I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. The idea of megastones not being ban really only affects the NU metagame

Kanghaskhan and Pinsir were NU last gen, there is nothing saying they are going to be NU again, as Sucker Punch even from regular Kangaskhan is decently strong, not OU material based solely on that, but it is a strong priority move with now better coverage. If any bans were to take place they would be item bans like Soul Dew, but since this is an in battle CHANGE, then it won't happen. Please just stop.