Serious Vegetarianism/Speciesism

[Billy the Alrune]

This is absurd on both levels. Other animals are capable of quite brutal and far less merciful attacks than well-aimed gunfire that also leave their victim with very low survival chances, and in many cases their victims will be defenceless relative to them. Guns do not give you a 0% chance of survival. I am not even going to bother to readdress the unnatural thing as I have school now, someone else can do it if they want. Even accepting your assertion that it is unnatural does not evidence that it is evil because it is unnatural and humans are not at fault as a species for the invention of and use of guns. If you suggest otherwise I will tell you why various animals are at fault as a species for the destruction of other species (which actually makes far more sense as a general rule, considering the use of guns is more of an individual and unnecessary thing that we can make distinctions about) and if you like we can examine the ethical scenarios that are posed by this!

No, just no. No other species can kill from a mile away. ONLY HUMANS ARE ABLE TO BECAUSE THEY USE GUNS! I don't care how merciless other animals can be, that does NOT excuse our use of sniping animals. Guns are ruthless weapons capable of killing things while giving them zero chances of survival. NO OTHER ANIMAL HAS THAT CAPABILITY OF A GUN! No other animal uses a god-mode machine to kill, just natural abilities. And BTW, natural basically means we are equipped with them already, or that they are readily available. Built mechanical contraptions do NOT fall under this.

Natural or not, they still give us an unfair and evil advantage over animals. Seriously, talking to you about guns feels like a waste of time, since you're the kind of person who will justify guns no matter what. If you want my opinion, guns ruin the human race. It gives us more power over nature than we rightfully should have. And it's not just animals who are destroyed by guns, but humans as well.

Also, anything about other species destroying ecosystems without guns would generally be a moot-point as this topic is strictly about why guns are not natural. Until humans grow guns out of their arms, I will NEVER agree to guns being natural.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Just curious Billy the Alrune, at what point would you have considered hominids to be "unnaturally" killing animals as predators?

I don't know if you are aware of this, but hominids as a group have been the apex predators of the Old World long before homo sapiens appeared on the scene. Would you consider the hunting of Homo Erectus to be unnatural for example?

I am actually not trying to make some kind of crazy strawman here, I am actually curious about your view on this.

 

[Billy the Alrune]

Just curious Billy the Alrune, at what point would you have considered hominids to be "unnaturally" killing animals as predators?

I don't know if you are aware of this, but hominids as a group have been the apex predators of the Old World long before homo sapiens appeared on the scene. Would you consider the hunting of Homo Erectus to be unnatural for example?

I am actually not trying to make some kind of crazy strawman here, I am actually curious about your view on this.

Only since guns and bows were made. I'm not as peeves at those who use throwing spears or other weapons that allow the victim a fair fighting chance, basically ones that can almost ensure the animal will die without knowing it will die.

 

[KM]

Any weapon that gives their victim 0% chance of survival is unnatural. Guns do just that. Absolutely no other animal is capable of that.

Saying "You need meat to survive" is the same as "You absolutely HAVE to eat meat." In a way, yeah it is forcing. Also, you really do not need meat to survive. I've seen sources that say you absolutely need it, but in general a lot of the info I read about it has been entirely bias based.

Ok let's break this down.

1. Guns are not exactly nuclear warheads. You have to a. hit the target and b. hit it in the right place and c. hit it hard enough so that it actually does more than create a bullet-shaped hickey in deerhide.
2. There's nothing about "guns" that make them any more "unnatural" than any other weapon, inherent or crafted. Like everything else on the entire fucking planet, guns are made out of elements on the periodic table. Different alloys created from these elements combine to form a contraption that is perhaps more efficient at killing than your average stick, but it doesn't make it any less natural. The ability to make tools is not an ability solely claimed by those of the human race. Just because our tools happen to be slightly more complicated hardly makes us users of "unnatural" weaponry that is going to wreak havoc to the animal kingdom. Is a monkey jabbing a sharp stick into an anthill to kill ants unnatural? what if it sharpens the stick with its teeth?
3. I think you'll find that the majority of the animals do not die by gunshot, especially the ones consumed by humans. If your idea of a modern factory is a little conveyer belt with mooing cows getting shot by 5-year-olds a la ducks at the carnival, you might want to bring that idea into the age of the Industrial Revolution.

should we also consider humans dying in their sleep unnatural, given that they have no knowledge that they're going to die?

 

[faint]

No, just no. No other species can kill from a mile away. ONLY HUMANS ARE ABLE TO BECAUSE THEY USE GUNS! I don't care how merciless other animals can be, that does NOT excuse our use of sniping animals. Guns are ruthless weapons capable of killing things while giving them zero chances of survival. NO OTHER ANIMAL HAS THAT CAPABILITY OF A GUN! No other animal uses a god-mode machine to kill, just natural abilities. And BTW, natural basically means we are equipped with them already, or that they are readily available. Built mechanical contraptions do NOT fall under this.

Natural or not, they still give us an unfair and evil advantage over animals. Seriously, talking to you about guns feels like a waste of time, since you're the kind of person who will justify guns no matter what. If you want my opinion, guns ruin the human race. It gives us more power over nature than we rightfully should have. And it's not just animals who are destroyed by guns, but humans as well.

Also, anything about other species destroying ecosystems without guns would generally be a moot-point as this topic is strictly about why guns are not natural. Until humans grow guns out of their arms, I will NEVER agree to guns being natural.

Does this mean killing with my bare hands is okay? You are unbelievably close to turning this into another god awful second amendment thread.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Only since guns and bows were made.

Ok, fair enough.

Random funfact: archery dates back into the stone age.

I'm not as peeves at those who use throwing spears or other weapons that allow the victim a fair fighting chance, basically ones that can almost ensure the animal will die without knowing it will die.

So your cool with this? The earliest method of hunting: running them down until they die of exhaustion.

I don't know man, this might be like the worst way you can possibly kill something morally. Imagine a killer stalking you like this.

 

[veiva]

No, just no. No other species can kill from a mile away. ONLY HUMANS ARE ABLE TO BECAUSE THEY USE GUNS! I don't care how merciless other animals can be, that does NOT excuse our use of sniping animals. Guns are ruthless weapons capable of killing things while giving them zero chances of survival. NO OTHER ANIMAL HAS THAT CAPABILITY OF A GUN! No other animal uses a god-mode machine to kill, just natural abilities. And BTW, natural basically means we are equipped with them already, or that they are readily available. Built mechanical contraptions do NOT fall under this.

Natural or not, they still give us an unfair and evil advantage over animals. Seriously, talking to you about guns feels like a waste of time, since you're the kind of person who will justify guns no matter what. If you want my opinion, guns ruin the human race. It gives us more power over nature than we rightfully should have. And it's not just animals who are destroyed by guns, but humans as well.

Also, anything about other species destroying ecosystems without guns would generally be a moot-point as this topic is strictly about why guns are not natural. Until humans grow guns out of their arms, I will NEVER agree to guns being natural.

Natural/unnatural argument is invalid on so many levels. I don't see your point. So what if we can conquer the natural kingdom? Must I feel bad for a squirrel because it was born into a life where it won't ponder the wonders of sentience?

As well, our brains are our weapon. It may not be able to be used directly as one, but humans have evolved to a point where brute strength is meaningless in the long term. Whoever has the tactical advantage will win, more often than not. And humans aren't the only creatures that use tools (there's birds, primates, and even beavers!).

 

[Demoness]

No, just no. No other species can kill from a mile away. ONLY HUMANS ARE ABLE TO BECAUSE THEY USE GUNS! I don't care how merciless other animals can be, that does NOT excuse our use of sniping animals. Guns are ruthless weapons capable of killing things while giving them zero chances of survival. NO OTHER ANIMAL HAS THAT CAPABILITY OF A GUN! No other animal uses a god-mode machine to kill, just natural abilities. And BTW, natural basically means we are equipped with them already, or that they are readily available. Built mechanical contraptions do NOT fall under this.

Oh, for fucks sake, guns are not a goddamn tool that makes you invincible! You need skill and practice to use them, or the animal you just shot at will likely only get a grazing wound or you will miss entirely. And again, please explain how it is unnatural? It is a tool that increases your chances of accomplishing a task. It is natural to use things that have a high chance of accomplishing the task you want it to do. Also, readily available? The materials for making basically any common mechanical device is readily available. Just because we have to make it into the tool doesn't make it not natural.

Natural or not, they still give us an unfair and evil advantage over animals. Seriously, talking to you about guns feels like a waste of time, since you're the kind of person who will justify guns no matter what. If you want my opinion, guns ruin the human race. It gives us more power over nature than we rightfully should have. And it's not just animals who are destroyed by guns, but humans as well.

How the fuck are guns evil? An inanimate object thhat literally has no life in it is not evil: It can be used for evil things, but also for good things as well. Also, unfair? We are taking advantage of the fact that we have the brain power to actually make these tools that increase our chances of survival. Any species that wants to survive will make use of whatever tarits they have to survive. To expect humans to suddenly handicap themselves because you believe it is "unfair" is an utterly asinine expectatiopn, and flies in the face of basic survival. Also, you honestly can't say that we have more power over nature then we should have because there is no fucking way to quantify that.

Only since guns and bows were made. I'm not as peeves at those who use throwing spears or other weapons that allow the victim a fair fighting chance, basically ones that can almost ensure the animal will die without knowing it will die.

I'm sorry, a spear or any sharp object can be just as deadly as a bow or gun. Also, a "fair fighting chance", while a noble concept, is an utterly stupid conecpt if you are trying to survive. Why would you give the creature you are trying to kill a chance to fight back and kill you? That is not how an animal survives.

Essentially, what you are saying is that "humans use their brains to make tools that help increae their chances of survival, and that's unnatural!". Just consider this: The whole fucking reason we can make these tools is because of our brains "and our body structure I guess). If you are going to say that out brain power is unnatural, then you would also have to agree that the whole human race is unnatural as a result. Do you not realize how terrible of an arguemtn that is?

Last post on this btw, although the thread is probably lost anyway.

 

[Billy the Alrune]

Ugh, I always thought there would be hope in the human race. Thanks for proving me wrong. Thanks for proving to me that humans are a lost cause.

Guns are "natural" by the same standard that artificial cherry flavor is "natural," or the same standard that High Fructose Corn Syrup is "natural." Because we, as a generation, erased the definition of "natural." Humans have devolved to the point where it is too important to be above all living creatures, that is why people like you will justify the use of guns.

My problem with guns stem far beyond nature, especially since it is legal to carry them anywhere, even in restaurants, hospitals, and even schools! You could argue it's the right wings fault for allowing this to happen, so many people are needlessly slaughtered every year by those infernal contraptions.

I am not saying the use of our brain is unnatural, I am saying GUNS ARE UNNATURAL! Guns are not a tool of survival, they are tools of destruction. If you haven't noticed, WE DON'T EVEN NEED THEM FOR SURVIVAL! We just do whatever we can to justify them because, oh they're convenient, they're easy and unfair. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE BEING SHOT FOR NO ****ING REASON WITH NO ****ING HINT YOU WERE ABOUT TO DIE!? Humans are the only animal smart enough to know this is wrong, but we have convinced ourselves it is right.

I am done arguing with you people, because I am sick and tired of hearing a bunch of anti-environmentalists preach about how guns are oh-so natural and heavenly and how HUMANS ARE SO ****ING PERFECT AND HOW WE MUST KILL ALL ANIMALS AND NEVER HELP THEM!!! You people make me seriously ashamed to be human. And THAT is another big reason I care more about animals, because people like you have removed any form of sympathy I have for my own species.

Nobody said you shouldn't intelligently support animal protection.

"Intelligently supporting animal protection," from personal experience usually means "Kill this, slaughter that, and never EVER support anything that actually benefits animals unless humans get to slaughter millions of them." That's from personal experience, anyway, as generally the people I meet who call themselves "Smart animal lovers" never actually support anything benificial to animals if animals don't get to be killed in the process.

 

[v]

no one said humans are perfect, guns are a tool and a human using a tool is as natural as anything. many animals use stealth and kill their prey before their prey can react, that is not unique to humans and besides, once the animal is dead it isn't hurting. it's just dead. you are angry because your arguments are poorly constructed so you have to resort to personal attacks and emotional appeals. if you continue to rehash the same argument again without changing your frankly unacceptably abrasive tone or adding anything new or pertinent, I am going to infract you and because of your already accrued infraction points you will be banned. I do not want to do that, so please just stop being such a dickhead. you have no reason to be so angry. I have already warned you once to tone it down a notch, but instead you have done the exact opposite. if you cannot discuss this issue civilly, then don't read this thread.

 

[jumpluff]

Actually I hate both guns and the military and dislike recreational hunting but that does not mean I shoot animals

Like are you even reading this thread? I love animals as you do fyi I just care more about rational and effective systemic forms of address than my individual inability to psychologically cope with dead animals

The reason I am not arguing against wanton gun use in this thread is because it is literally irrelevant lol do you know how an abattoir works (at least in what appears to be your country, the US—gun carry isn't legal everywhere jsyk! perhaps America is the problem?)

p.s. I am personally involved in natural resource protection efforts atm as were my parents. I might actually know more than you about the importance of protecting the environment, which includes but is not limited to animals. I am not a 'smart animal lover', I am interested in conservation (and staving off famine). If protecting the environment morally offends you so much, encourage those you know who to eat meat to opt for comparatively more humane choices (or do you only care about dead animals?), foster abused animals, and politically engage with issues such as live export

 

[V4LOVER]

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE BEING SHOT FOR NO ****ING REASON WITH NO ****ING HINT YOU WERE ABOUT TO DIE!?

Animals aren't sentient to that point. They have no idea what a gun is unless having been previously taught "this is a gun" and witnessing its effects. Even then it probably will still not learn what it is or give a shit about it.

If someone needs to hunt, I see no problem with it. It's humane - the animal doesn't know what's going to happen, and if the person is a good marksman, chances are it won't feel pain.

 

[the pugilist]

can an abattoir kill something from a mile away???

 

[Billy the Alrune]

Actually I hate both guns and the military and dislike recreational hunting but that does not mean I shoot animals

Like are you even reading this thread? I love animals as you do fyi I just care more about rational and effective systemic forms of address than my individual inability to psychologically cope with dead animals

The reason I am not arguing against wanton gun use in this thread is because it is literally irrelevant lol do you know how an abattoir works (at least in what appears to be your country, the US—gun carry isn't legal everywhere jsyk! perhaps America is the problem?)

p.s. I am personally involved in natural resource protection efforts atm as were my parents. I might actually know more than you about the importance of protecting the environment, which includes but is not limited to animals. I am not a 'smart animal lover', I am interested in conservation (and staving off famine). If protecting the environment morally offends you so much, encourage those you know who to eat meat to opt for comparatively more humane choices (or do you only care about dead animals?), foster abused animals, and politically engage with issues such as live export

Uhh, that normally means the opposite anyway, but whatever works.

Yeah. I'm trying to argue why guns aren't morally right, but it seems to be going ignored, as if I think humans should just give up cars electricity and living which isn't the case. Just because it's unnatural doesn't mean humans can't use them, it's just that, well, I've made my point so why bother.

I'm all for protecting the environment, why would that offend me? If you mean hunting, that's a whole 'nother story. As for helping animals? I do what I can when I can.

Edit: I know I said I was gonna stop talking, but I really just needed some time to cool off. These topics are a "angry-button" for me.