Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Srn]

Hi there haven't been here in a while

Serp should totally be B+

Anybody who's spent more than 5 games on the ladder in the last month should know that serp has seen a pretty explosive rise in usage, and its because it glares torns and then proceeds to sub seed those and trans and just generally makes you want to tear your hair out. In fact, your hair disappears 1.33x quicker when it switches into a defog holy shit.

It doesn't have that much raw defensive utility like tangrowth or tapu bulu, but it can generally come out on top 1v1 vs mons like ash gren, zygarde, kartana, clefable, koko and sub seed down its checks after or before glare like torn-t, magearna, heatran etc.

If it decides to run hp fire over glare, then it can become much better at handling ferrothorn, scizor, kartana, and other more niche stuff like having a good shot to kill Mega Pinsir after rocks if it comes in as regular pinsir at +2.

In any case this thing fits well on screens HO teams and should really be ranked higher than some never seen shit like zard-x, gengar, Mega diancie and mega venu.

One more,
Hoopa should probably go down to B

I just never see hoopa anymore, and I really have to wonder why. On one hand, there's a ton of u-turns flying around from koko, torn-t, scarf lando-t's, and mons like AV magearna, chansey, and clefable are still going strong in the meta. Mons like Mega Mawile and Celesteela have even been picking up in usage which can give hoopa some trouble if its facing them down 1v1.

on the other hand, mons like mega alakazam and reuniclus have definitely been on the rise, and hoopa can slaughter those two pretty handily. TTar usage has gone down the drain, but it was never really scarf to being with either, its just easier to click stab moves when prominent dark types are pretty absent in the meta right now.

Ultimately I can't see hoopa on the same level as some pretty prominent threats like mega swampert and mega gyarados, the more low-key threats like weavile and mega lopunny, or the good support mons like zapdos and pelipper. I think its at home with mons like victini, suicune, and exca.

Blacephalon should be higher fuck finch

And yeah no clue why people thing tangrowth is passive or something its a mon with good coverage and regen, no clue why people are pulling the "easy to predict and play around" argument when prediction is a 2-way street, and i never want to see garbage like shiinotic and dhelmise mentioned in this thread again lmao. If i was supposed to stop talking about tangy bc the discussion hit the sink though pls delete this part of the post

 

[Patolegend!]

Why when ranking Greninja and Greninja-ash do we not take into account the basic threat of not knowing which is which at team preview? I understand ranking them separately, but we have to consider when ranking them that one could be the other.

I've seen numerous people saying Ash form is too linear, too predictable; but what has it cost just to find out it's ash?

The counters/checks to one often get merked by the other, such as bulu and gunk shot, scarf Lando and water shuriken, etc. The first free switch in that Greninja gets is one of the scariest turns in the game if you don't have AV Tang.

I think this should contribute in their tiering, and contribute to a possible higher rank. I disagree that they can be ranked completely in isolation.

Just something I've been wondering for a while

 

[AM]

Because it’s the same concept as chary and charx in XY. You rank them based on how good they are in practice as their own entity and common archetypes around them, not the assumption that the viability of one makes the mystery of the other more threatening.

 

[Patolegend!]

Because it’s the same concept as chary and charx in XY. You rank them based on how good they are in practice as their own entity and common archetypes around them, not the assumption that the viability of one makes the mystery of the other more threatening.

Is this not flawed though? Mons have been banned in the past thanks to their varied array of sets and the difficulty of the opponent being able to prepare for it.

From what I've seen, a lot of top battlers make a plan based on team preview; battling a Greninja (a zard too but to a lesser extent) one has to prepare for seven mons instead of 6. This impact, unique to Zard and Greninja, should be taken into account when ranking each one.

 

[AM]

Is this not flawed though? Mons have been banned in the past thanks to their varied array of sets and the difficulty of the opponent being able to prepare for it.

From what I've seen, a lot of top battlers make a plan based on team preview; battling a Greninja (a zard too but to a lesser extent) one has to prepare for seven mons instead of 6. This impact, unique to Zard and Greninja, should be taken into account when ranking each one.

It’s flawed but I don’t think the extremes are large between the forms where that should boost their viability. If you think one is better than the other in the metagame rank them accordingly. We did the same with charx and chary in XY, where zardx hindered the viability of chary despite the supposed mystery of one being the other. Viability to me should be more about ease of use and implementation. I dont think these are good for threat lists in comparison to usage stats anyways.

I dont know to fully answer your last paragraph without spewing bs, since that concept can apply to one mon having 5 different unique movesets to and I think we rank based on that already.

Maybe more people can chime in on this or if they even care cause its all opinionated and w3k thought ash ninja was S for a reason.

 

[GnuGnu]

Is this not flawed though? Mons have been banned in the past thanks to their varied array of sets and the difficulty of the opponent being able to prepare for it.

From what I've seen, a lot of top battlers make a plan based on team preview; battling a Greninja (a zard too but to a lesser extent) one has to prepare for seven mons instead of 6. This impact, unique to Zard and Greninja, should be taken into account when ranking each one.

Not going to speak for the council but IMO, they already do this. For example, both Gyarados are used heavily on HO right now and it's actually quite hard to tell which one it is without knowing the team beforehand. This definitely increases the viability of both and the recent update reflects that (ofc it's not the only reason why both are viable, and they don't share the same rank because even though the threat of both makes both pokemon better, one is better than the other).

Both Gren forms are already A+ so if you're saying that the mystery of greninja is enough to push 1 or both of them up to S rank, well I don't think you'll find too many people that will agree with you on that. I tend to think viability consists of all aspects, including what you mentioned but that doesn't necessarily mean it's enough to push a pokemon up an entire sub rank, especially when it's already at the second highest it can be. This discussion would make more sense for something lower in the rankings like Char X/Y where there is actual wiggle room to move up in the rankings. In the gren scenario, I see them both as A+ pokemon if they're completely independent from each other. If you consider the fact that you have to account for both forms, they become well....better A+ pokemon.

 

[p2]

alright since my shit was deleted after specifically asking to NOT to be deleted because it brought up a very valid concern ppl have been going on about for at least the past 12 months, why is zygarde not s rank still?

why is it still an a+ rank threat when it boasts more versatility and utility than anything else it shares a+ with? this shit legit has like 8 different all completely viable sets and minor alterations to its sets that just make it even more unpredictable and a total motherfucker to face. i have never seen such a dominant threat running around since late-oras clef, which basically boils down to "oh fuck if he actually lands this para or a coverage move im fucked" this mon literally breaks the meta every other month with some stupid new set re surging in usage and completely warps the dynamic of the meta around it - see glare spam - that has straight up been molded into a new playstyle that can be easily abused and is a very very low /high risk/reward playstyle due to how strong para is w 100% acc. i could give plenty more examples with like protect dd+ tspikes, but do i REALLY need to do that??? also that band resttalk set is hella gay but its genius

is that better mods?
yes

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

hey all, I’m fine with discussing Tang and other alternatives that fulfill the bulky grass type role but the vr isnt the place for randomly naming unviable mons like leafeon as alternatives without any arguments to back it up, please stay on topic everyone and happy posting

Btw i just want to point out in the thread that I actually did try out leafeon and it actually was surprisingly pretty decent. Its not a garbage mon but there are easier alternatives that can do more. The sets I used were sun sweepers and one em was banded. while I was right that it can be a phys defensive wall like growth and is actually far better at it in some cases, filling in as an alt for the AV growth was ignorant of me to say. It sapped momentum and its much weaker in most situations (some of it actually it was preferred to leafeon). Overall, I'm glad I tried it out but tangrowth is better for the role that it does. Shaymin however is another story. If you want replays of either don't be shy, I have plenty

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Imma drop my own thoughts about the current talking points as well as some other stuff I wanna bring up.

Clefable to S: Disagree
This thing has been p controverisal as far as where to rank it for a lot of people. I dont think its S material for a few reasons. For one, it’s p damn passive. Also, its ez to wear down for things like banded arrows from zygod and medi’s zen headbutt. Also, if its gonna be taking physical hits, its sturggling to take on other stuff like ash gren, koko, and lele. Plus, heatran eats this thing alive if its z move. Even non z can taunt and kill it if it wants. Great mon, just not lando, tran, or zyg imo.

Mega Loppuny: B+ to B: Disagree
This thing is great vs the HOs being spammed during OLT and against most offenses in general. Plus, mega zam is slower than it due to zam running modest. It’s better than most of the shit in B like vic, alolamola and even Mega Diancie. Also, tho things like pex and clef that are bulky are annoying, it gets encore to annoy them.

Suicune: B to C+: Agree
This thing hasn’t been a big threat for a while and the current trends like AV tang, SpD SD bulu, and especially toxpaex just make this thing not as valuable as it could be. Fini and clef are better at using calm mind while pex and other bulky waters are better at beating things bulky waters should beat. It is annoying as fuck on veil tho.

Mantine: B- to C+: Agree
This thing is not doing well. It struggles vs threats it’s supposed to check like ash gren if rocks go up which it should beat easily. Not only this, but stuff like rotom and pex are so much better at checking the stuff it does. Especially rotom, who can defog while not bring weak to rocks.

Mega Slowbro: C to B-: Agree
This thing is really good rn imo. It can check so much annoying shit like zygod and p much any physical attacker. Plus, some special attackers like mega latios, victini and heatran lacking z solarbeam or z nature power in grass terrain. It does get annoyed with all the bulu and tang spam rn but it actually can make good partners with bulu so its kinda an even tradeoff. Also, things like ash gren can be easily checked so being weak to them isn’t the worst thing in the world.

Tyranitar: A to A-: Agree
The meta isn’t kind to this thing. The HO spam rn cause of OLT doesnt help it cause its speed is so fucking bad and it can’t even beat stall anymore due to the surge in use for hippo. The grasses like tang and bulu are beating it as are the fast stuff that smash it like medi. In addition to all that, it can’t even beat heatran anymore since theyre using z flash cannon a lot. Scarf is ok as is AV but it’s not enough to keep it A imo. Also, it cant pursuit things like latios as easily anymore due to mega EQ.

Chansey: A- to A: Disagree
Stall is getting a bit better than it was before but this thing is annoyed with stuff like taunt mega gyra runnin around to annoy it as well as the typical stall destroyers like hoopa. Also, shit it’s supposed to check like gren beat it now with z low kick. Still a good mon, not A worthy imo

Quagsire: B- to C+: Agree
With Pyukumuku rising as stall’s unaware water mon and the fact it can pp stall stuff like cm clef is just more valuable than quag’s role, plus hippo is the electric immune on stall nowadays so that isnt a perk anymore.

Hippowdon: B- to B: Agree
This thing is so good on stall nowadays. It and pyuku just made quag uneeded and this thing helps a bit vs pressure zapdos, a bitch for stall to face while setting rocks.

Avalugg: C- to C: Agree
Beating one of the best mons in the tier as well as beating other physical mons is great. Also spins in emergencies for stall. Still isnt a great mon tho. Only works on stall as well and has a shit typing so that doesnt help it either.

Terrakion: B- to C: Agree
When was the last time this thing did work in an important game? Its got way to much going against it from the grass rise to toxapex/megabro to megazam. P much any offensive threat outspeeds and kills this thing. Even with scarf, it either cant kill them or they have priority. And no SD means u cant kill anything remotely bulky in 2 shots unless theyre weak to it.

Crawdaunt: C to C+: Agree
This thing is p damn good rn imo. It takes stalls and fat balance and smashes em open with those banded knocks. The RMT with it that blunder showed really showed how strong this thing is. Also, knock spam is always good. Has an aight typing for taking on latios and stuff. Just gotta play it smart as its frail and slow (has aqua jet tho) to succeed.


Now other stuff (sorry for this being so long)

Zygarde: A+ to S: Agree
This thing is p much uncounterable with all the damn sets it can run. S 100%.

Ash Gren: A+ to S: Disagree
Whyd this thing all of a sudden get considered by some S material? Not sayin ur bad for thinkin it but it doesnt have the diversity of lando, tran, or zyg while also struggling to get to its peak of performance vs fat teams that can control hazards. And has very common counters like bulu, tang, and pex. Spikes is great and all and this mon is fantastic, just not one for S.

Celesteela: A to A+: Agree
This thing is so good for all the psychic mons like zam, latios, and lele. Plus, it checks a fuckload of other shit like scizor and lando. Hates heatran but it gets leech seeded and protected on and loses 24% not accounting for hazards and lefties.

C+ to B: Agree
With all the grass spam as well as lando being the best scarfer, it can beat down a lot of the meta. Flamethrower/solarbeam/focus blast gets so much damn coverage and only latis, pex, chansey, and mega alt can switch in. All of these are beaten by weavile, this things best partner. Hates hazards still but with all the defoggers runnin around, it shouldnt be hard to fix that issue.

Reunicles: B+ to A-: Agree
This thing is so fucking good at CMing its not even funny. Its like clef if it could switch in to mega medi and other shit. Plus, acid armor allows u to solo and pp stall many dark types as they cant kill u. (Exceptions to hoopa tho on not killing tho). This thing is great and will continue to be.

Tapu Bulu: A to A+: Agree
The SpD SD set rose this thing to the top. Allows u to beat p much any special water with exceptions to protean gren. The set also wins vs bulky teams and in general just does well in this meta. AV isnt a bad set either as it can run megahorn and natures madness for latis.

Tangrowth: A- to A: Agree
Zyg’s best answer outside of stall and harasses waters, bulu, celesteela, and more, this thing has shown its effectivness and thanks to knock, it can punish switches and isnt as passive as say clef or gastro. Also has busted regen so thats good. Can run sludge bomb for bulus and has the ability to just annoy things well in general. Can even beat ash gren if AV.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

Ok you ready...

Blacephelon B- to B+

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 20 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Taunt / Substitute

Imo this is the most threatening special sweeper after volc. Doea waaaayyy more than the other stuff in B-. Garchomp, really? Most teams have no answer to this if they don't run ttar. Mega gyara is rare. Eats the Glorious Leader, Tangrowth, for lunch. Does well vs all playstyles, even HO -- +1 spooky ghost just makes things disappear. Taunt. Sub is better, but taunt beats pex, which I've seen a lot more of than ttar.

Look at the above post by VerlisifySetsSuck , which I think did a great job with getting trends right. you want to tell me stuff like fat grasses, steela, stall, is all hot and then not want to raise this? That's crazy talk. This gets a free turn vs any of that and it's gg.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-792489719. (I think robopoke uses this a fair amount too if you want to see actual quality replays)

Yes, it's walled by ttar, yes gren revenges (sometimes), but fat sweeper blace is a threat that gets nowhere near the amount of love it deserves. It is even better on veil, but that's a different story because Aurora veil makes everything broken.

All non-speed-boosting sets are bad memes and rightfully shouldn't be used.

Edit: in reply to below post. I was wrong about gyara; it is trending up,over past few months on usage. Kommo-o is a counter only to non-ghostZ sets, but that’s hardly present enough to warrant consideration as a hindrance to blacephelons viability over the increased presence of all the aforementioned fat stuff. Crawdaunt is not a counter...it only revenges. +1 ghostium Ohkos, while +0 does 75% minimum...and you get locked into Aqua Jet.

 

[zbr]

on the topic of gren-a / gren / zard x / zard y / whatever being classed as one mon or separate mons with their viability affecting each other.

the simple thing to think about is how it mirrors mons with multiple sets. majority of the mons that are on the viability rankings may have more than 1 "role" attached to them (i.e tran we got that offensive variants and defensive variants amount up to 4 diff sets and we got 6 diff viable landoT sets), however, the main thing we must keep in mind is that majority of them despite having largely different sets is that they have very similar checks and counters. this is something that applies largely in similarity to gren-a / gren (altho i dont rlly wanna say that there are checks and counters to gren to begin with but oh well for the sake of argument lets go on with it) so we can safely conclude that the viability of gren does not heavily hinder or supplement gren-a's unpredictability since gren is very unpredictable to begin with. with that, we can also conclude that separating them as different pokemons to rank doesn't rlly help our playerbase identify at team preview what kind on gren the opp is using.

however, the case of zards are very much different. the case of zard mirrors much more towards the mluke thinking process rather than the multiple set thinking process. (please don't attack me by saying luke and zard are super different or wtv thanks) mluke was a pokemon that was fast and capable of running sets that were on two extreme ends of the spectrum much like zard does. zard x runs a mostly physical set and zard y can opt for either a physical or a special set with a heavy preference towards special set. this creates a scenario where it's almost impossible to find a "counter both set" mon other than fat waters and even then they can be easily dealt with by both variants. this is the scenario in which a 7 mon team is created since you cant properly argue that "hey he is running ttar and weavile, that's gotta be zardy". and yes, by this argument it means that should a mon have the capability to run two or more extreme spectrum sets, they should be thought of as two separate mons instead and as such, the viability of zardx does in turn heavily hinder or supplement zardy's unpredictability in general (assuming all other factors remain constant ofc)

understandably my arguments here are super vague since there's a lot more to consider when digging into the nitty gritty when it comes to mons that have vastly different sets or mons that switch types and defensive coverages when they mega (ie megados), but i would just like to point out that when it comes to viability, the main aim is to have a simple way to view all available options for particular mons and how they positively or negatively are affected by the meta, therefore, it's much easier to assess a mon's usability and effects on the meta by viewing them as their own separate entities during battle (ie knowing that the zard from team preview is zardx immediately rather than hinging on the fact that the zard from team preview could either be x or y)

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Ok you ready...

Blacephelon B- to B+

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 232 HP / 20 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Taunt / Substitute

Imo this is the most threatening special sweeper after volc. Doea waaaayyy more than the other stuff in B-. Garchomp, really? Most teams have no answer to this if they don't run ttar. Mega gyara is rare. Eats the Glorious Leader, Tangrowth, for lunch. Does well vs all playstyles, even HO -- +1 spooky ghost just makes things disappear. Taunt. Sub is better, but taunt beats pex, which I've seen a lot more of than ttar.

Look at the above post by VerlisifySetsSuck , which I think did a great job with getting trends right. you want to tell me stuff like fat grasses, steela, stall, is all hot and then not want to raise this? That's crazy talk. This gets a free turn vs any of that and it's gg.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-792489719. (I think robopoke uses this a fair amount too if you want to see actual quality replays)

Yes, it's walled by ttar, yes gren revenges (sometimes), but fat sweeper blace is a threat that gets nowhere near the amount of love it deserves. It is even better on veil, but that's a different story because Aurora veil makes everything broken.

All non-speed-boosting sets are bad memes and rightfully shouldn't be used.

Saying mega gyara is rare rn is p wrong due to all the screens spam with it thus a lot of HO teams have a blace counter. Also, kommo o which has gained a little traction thanks to loppuny kick’s team is a counter as well. And crawdaunt which is being used rn thanks to the RMT blunder showed off that i mentioned in my post regarding crawdaunt and other mons so thats a counter.

 

[1234hjkl]

Saying mega gyara is rare rn is p wrong due to all the screens spam with it thus a lot of HO teams have a blace counter. Also, kommo o which has gained a little traction thanks to loppuny kick’s team is a counter as well. And crawdaunt which is being used rn thanks to the RMT blunder showed off that i mentioned in my post regarding crawdaunt and other mons so thats a counter.

Kommo-o and crawdaunt aren't counters to Blace, they die from a Never-Ending Nightmare even without a boost, crawdaunt could force it out since it got priority but it take a lot of damage even from resisted hits and if blace got a sub then it just gets nuked. While M-Gya is a pretty good switch in a boosted Z-Move still hurts a lot even if its a resist so you should not switch so often on it else it get too worn out.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Kommo-o and crawdaunt aren't counters to Blace, they die from a Never-Ending Nightmare even without a boost, crawdaunt could force it out since it got priority but it take a lot of damage even from resisted hits and if blace got a sub then it just gets nuked. While M-Gya is a pretty good switch in a boosted Z-Move still hurts a lot even if its a resist so you should not switch so often on it else it get too worn out.

I shoulda cleared up kommo o counters after the z move is burnt. As for crawdaunt, ye. I was wrong on that one and ty for pointing it out.

 

[MFJK]

Some noms.

→ B-
I'm nominating Hydreigon to rise because I feel like it's a really interesting mon that has seen some usage in the most recent OLT. Most notably, Kory and Kickasser used it to qualify. It has a really interesting niche in the tier,as the recently discovered Darkinium Z can check to Ash-Greninja and slower mons like Heatran and Tapu Lele. With Z-Dark Pulse and its coverage moves, it can hit a lot mons quite hard, including some of its checks like M-Scizor and Celesteela; as well as Clefable (if modest) with Flash Cannon.

→ C- or UR
I was gonna include this nom in my last post but I forgot lol. The reason why I'm making this nom is because I don't think there's any reason to use this over M-Zam rn. The main reason why LO regular Zam started to get a bit of traction some months ago was that it could hit a bit harder than M-Zam with LO, didn't use a mega slot and could keep its ability Magic Guard. However, M-Zam just offers a lot more utility as it can check mons like M-Latios and Heatran, outspeeds mons like Lopunny which have been getting a bit of traction and is more effective vs rain among other things. Also, with the recent "discover" of Modest Zam, which hits harder than LO Zam, I think it's just completely outclassed.

→ B+
Excadrill should definitely rise because of the role it plays on HO teams which have really been on rise lately, which I think puts him over most of B rank mons. I think that if mons like Gyarados and Blacephalon rose because of their niche on HO, then Excadrill should rise too. It would also put him at the same rank as Pelipper which are also pretty similar in terms of viability rn.

I apologize for not touching the main discussion points which may make this post a bit boring to read. These were just some little things I wanted to touch on.

 

[earl]

→ ranked
I'm nominating Hydreigon to be ranked because I feel like it's a really interesting mon that has seen some usage in the most recent OLT. Most notably, Kory and Kickasser used it to qualify. It has a really interesting niche in the tier, as the Darkinium Z can check to Ash-Greninja and slower mons like Heatran and Tapu Lele. With Z-Dark Pulse and its coverage moves, it can hit a lot mons quite hard, including some of its checks like M-Scizor and Celesteela; as well as Clefable (if modest) with Flash Cannon. An analysis of this mon is being written up and although it's not a great argument, it at least attests of its niche in the tier. As for its potential rank, I think C+ fits since it has a superior niche compared to all C rank mons.

Hydreigon is already ranked, its C+

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

Serperior from B to B+

Imo the B+ rank is the "good matchup against half of the meta, bad matchup against the other half". And Serp totally fit that description: Leaf Storm is scary enough to force switches on a lot of meta trends like Clef, Tapu Koko, Kartana (partially thanks to HP Fire), Zygarde and Gyarados. It's SubSeed set lets it fuction as a pretty good balance breaker (by slowly killing opposing Heatran & Leaf Storm spam) and stallbreaker, while forcing mind games against steel types that doesn't appreciate a +2 or +3 HP Fire in their faces. Also (albeit being a rather niche set), Glare allows it to cripple a lot of faster, menacing treats like Hawlucha, Tornadus-T, Mega Lopunny, Mega Alakazam, etc.
However, the grassy snake has some serious problems, like it's vulnerability to status on the switchin, faster mons like (Boosted) Hawlucha, Tornadus-T, Scarf Users and Protean Gren removing it from the game or force a switch out, and being easily revenge killed by priority like Extreme Speed or Fake out.

 

[robofiend]

B -> B-

Diancie's never been great, but I feel like recent meta developments have made even less room for it to excel. I feel like it's overrated in B alongside Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Mew, Serperior, Victini, and Zard-X - who all offer a lot of power despite their drawbacks

First, its ability looks cool but is functionally limited, as all of the tier's top rocks and Spikes setters except for Clefable (and Skarmory, but meh) carry moves that can OHKO it. Bouncing Status attacks back is a mixed bag as well, as many mons that carry Toxic or Will-o-Wisp don't care about taking it back themselves due to typing, function, or abilities. While attacks like Earth Power, HP Fire or HP Ice can shore up some of its shortcomings, the fact remains that Scarf Lando is incredibly common, Earth Power is pretty much only good for hitting Heatran and M-Mawile, Moonblast doesn't break Landorus, Ash-Gren outspeeds and OHKO's it, and HP Fire doesn't OHKO Ferrothorn. Prediction alone is hell for this mon and it has to play smart in order to stay alive. Other mons like Focus Sash + Mold Breaker Exca, Hippowdon, and Focus Sash Landorus only increase Diancie's headaches as a deterrent to hazards. Balance and offense mons like M-Scizor, Tangrowth, and Magearna widen the pool of things that can switch in on it free of charge (in Scizor's case, assuming it dodges HP Fire). And in a world where Zygarde reigns supreme, the last thing your team wants is a mon that's weak to pretty much every one of its sets.

Second, while Sub/Endeavor sets are cool for breaking stall, it's possible to play around them by making M-Diancie waste its 8 Diamond Storm and 8 Endeavor PP by simply healing off damage. Mons like M-Scizor can be used on stall, balance, or offensive teams to check it regardless of what set its running, provided they don't switch in on a HP Fire. Hippowdon, Pyukumuku or Skarmory can also try to stall it out by recovering against its Endeavor, since it often only carries Diamond Storm and Moonblast for, which can't 2HKO any of them from full health. Tangrowth and Toxapex also give Diancie problems as they can eat Endeavor and abuse Regenerator to get back to full health. Overall this set is really fun but it just doesn't work that reliably compared to the tier's other breakers - it often ends up being a "trade your mega to kill Magearna or Ferro" and that's not that cool.

Third, Diancie's mega slot is more valuable than before, with M-Latios, M-Zam, M-Scizor, M-Mawile, and M-Gyarados (and others) all competing hard for a spot on teams. These mons lack many of Diancie's flaws, as they are able to break balance and offensive teams down with their high-powered attacks, setup sets, and generally more auspicious coverage, as well as being able to switch in on threats like Clefable, Heatran, Landorus, Torn-T, Tangrowth, or Toxapex without fear. Additionally, M-Diancie's speed tier isn't that great, leaving it weak to fast special attackers and setup sweepers alike (for instance, M-Mawile does ~50% with a +2 Sucker Punch). Many of these mons also have better matchups against Diancie's biggest enemies, like Tapu Koko, Scarf Kartana, Ash-Greninja, Scarf Landorus, and Magearna. In short, M-Diancie's weaknesses against top tier mons make it hard to justify as a teammate when there are better options for a special sweeper/breaker, mega or not.

TL;DR - this thing's gotten worse over time and it should go down.

 

[Ohmboy Tesla]

B -> B-

Diancie's never been great, but I feel like recent meta developments have made even less room for it to excel. I feel like it's overrated in B alongside Gastrodon, Rotom-W, Mew, Serperior, Victini, and Zard-X - who all offer a lot of power despite their drawbacks

First, its ability looks cool but is functionally limited, as all of the tier's top rocks and Spikes setters except for Clefable (and Skarmory, but meh) carry moves that can OHKO it. Bouncing Status attacks back is a mixed bag as well, as many mons that carry Toxic or Will-o-Wisp don't care about taking it back themselves due to typing, function, or abilities. While attacks like Earth Power, HP Fire or HP Ice can shore up some of its shortcomings, the fact remains that Scarf Lando is incredibly common, Earth Power is pretty much only good for hitting Heatran and M-Mawile, Moonblast doesn't break Landorus, Ash-Gren outspeeds and OHKO's it, and HP Fire doesn't OHKO Ferrothorn. Prediction alone is hell for this mon and it has to play smart in order to stay alive. Other mons like Focus Sash + Mold Breaker Exca, Hippowdon, and Focus Sash Landorus only increase Diancie's headaches as a deterrent to hazards. Balance and offense mons like M-Scizor, Tangrowth, and Magearna widen the pool of things that can switch in on it free of charge (in Scizor's case, assuming it dodges HP Fire). And in a world where Zygarde reigns supreme, the last thing your team wants is a mon that's weak to pretty much every one of its sets.

Second, while Sub/Endeavor sets are cool for breaking stall, it's possible to play around them by making M-Diancie waste its 8 Diamond Storm and 8 Endeavor PP by simply healing off damage. Mons like M-Scizor can be used on stall, balance, or offensive teams to check it regardless of what set its running, provided they don't switch in on a HP Fire. Hippowdon, Pyukumuku or Skarmory can also try to stall it out by recovering against its Endeavor, since it often only carries Diamond Storm and Moonblast for, which can't 2HKO any of them from full health. Tangrowth and Toxapex also give Diancie problems as they can eat Endeavor and abuse Regenerator to get back to full health. Overall this set is really fun but it just doesn't work that reliably compared to the tier's other breakers - it often ends up being a "trade your mega to kill Magearna or Ferro" and that's not that cool.

Third, Diancie's mega slot is more valuable than before, with M-Latios, M-Zam, M-Scizor, M-Mawile, and M-Gyarados (and others) all competing hard for a spot on teams. These mons lack many of Diancie's flaws, as they are able to break balance and offensive teams down with their high-powered attacks, setup sets, and generally more auspicious coverage, as well as being able to switch in on threats like Clefable, Heatran, Landorus, Torn-T, Tangrowth, or Toxapex without fear. Additionally, M-Diancie's speed tier isn't that great, leaving it weak to fast special attackers and setup sweepers alike (for instance, M-Mawile does ~50% with a +2 Sucker Punch). Many of these mons also have better matchups against Diancie's biggest enemies, like Tapu Koko, Scarf Kartana, Ash-Greninja, Scarf Landorus, and Magearna. In short, M-Diancie's weaknesses against top tier mons make it hard to justify as a teammate when there are better options for a special sweeper/breaker, mega or not.

TL;DR - this thing's gotten worse over time and it should go down.

I agree that M-Diancie isn't doing as great as last gen, but B- would really be underselling it imo. Its ability certainly isn't going to keep hazards off your field, but that's not what you use it for. Bouncing stuff like Glare, Wisp, Seeds and other status moves is actually pretty amazing for an offensive 'mon. It's a good rocker, certainly vs Stall, pre-Mega Clear Body just shits all over webs (Gyara, Blace, Bish, ... all die to STABs), and it really deters A-Ninetales from setting up Veil. It also partners incredibly well with 'mons like Bulu, Volcarona, Rotom-W, ... and is a good switchin to stuff like Tornadus and M-Pinsir.

It's not a common set, but I actually like to use Rock Polish as it completely beats offense once it's set up, which is not as difficult as people think since attacks like M-Lop's or Hawlucha's HJK don't OHKO unevolved Diancie, and Moonblast, Diamond Storm and Earth Power is all the coverage you need, hitting Zygarde, Koko, Gren, Kartana (who even dies to a Moonblast...), Pex, Tornadus, Zapdos, Hawlucha, ... with lethal damage. Outspeeding Rain in the late-game is also pretty nice.

Definitely a niche option, but when the meta was more Balance-centered, you could even go for the CM set (with Psychic > Epower), which can't be Roared/WWinded/Dragon Tailed.

I believe I actually have some replays of it doing serious work in the 1600-1800's, but I'd have to look for them and I'm at work atm, so I might add them later.

B => B- : Disagree

EDIT:
Here's a recent one of it offensively checking a M-Pinsir team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-794150100

Replay from my mobile Alt which shows how Clear Body helps you clean vs Webs
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-790693791

Dismantling a combination of Veil + Sand offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-802100963

 

[Alakazam21]

Mega Alakazam=>S
Mega Alakazam is honestly fantastic. All the metagame trends are greatly benifiting it- it is, currently, the best cleaner in OU. It can check Heatran- even playing around the Steelium Z set, it lives a Fleur cannon and 2HKOS Shift Gear Magearna, while gaining a +1 special attack. It forms a mid blowing core with Lando- it really likes the momentum, Lando checks Assault vest Magearna and the few other things that wall it; it also quickly forces other Lando to switch out due to double intimidate. HP-Fire is another nice option on Alakazam since it can tank a hit from Scizor and OHKO it back. IMO, it, alongside Zygarde, Clefable and Greninja Ash are a notch above the rest. CM Alakazam with Recover is a very niche but surprisingly strong set- remove the steels and it really can sweep.

My opinions on the other nominations-

B to B-: Disagree
Fully disagree, Diancie is still a potent, albeit not very, threat.

Serperior: B to B+
Serperior is amazing. I do believe it deserves a rise to B+ at the very least through I think A- isn't too much of a stretch either.

Hydreigon: C+ to B-
Z- Dark Pulse is quite useful, hence I believe a rise is due.

Ash Gren: A+ to S: Disagree
Its not good enough for S, through S-, if ever returned, may be perfect for it. Same with Clefable.

Zygarde: A+ to S: Agree
Zygarde is very good right now, its band set is probably one of the best wallbreaking sets in OU.

 

[Baloor]

Mega Alakazam=>S
Mega Alakazam is honestly fantastic. All the metagame trends are greatly benifiting it- it is, currently, the best cleaner in OU. It can check Heatran- even playing around the Steelium Z set, it lives a Fleur cannon and 2HKOS Shift Gear Magearna, while gaining a +1 special attack. It forms a mid blowing core with Lando- it really likes the momentum, Lando checks Assault vest Magearna and the few other things that wall it; it also quickly forces other Lando to switch out due to double intimidate. HP-Fire is another nice option on Alakazam since it can tank a hit from Scizor and OHKO it back. IMO, it, alongside Zygarde, Clefable and Greninja Ash are a notch above the rest. CM Alakazam with Recover is a very niche but surprisingly strong set- remove the steels and it really can sweep.

Alright let me preface this with, Alakazam is a really good mon and can be very useful vs popular meta trends such as Rain and the current "heatran on every team" spam. However, it is far from being S worthy. A S rank mon is typically defined by two variables; versatility and consistency. This definition can be applied perfectly to both Lando and Heatran but that definition cannot be applied to Alakazam. Currently it only has one set that is worth using, while that takes nothing away from its viability in the slightest, it makes the mon very cookie cutter and predictable. The S Rank Mons atm both run multiple sets that are all effective and play very differently. For example, a Scarf Landorus - Therian plays very different from a defensive Landorus - Therian, these two sets have different checks/counters and are almost like two different mons. When comparing Mega Alakazam to Lando, the difference in terms of effectiveness is ten folds. There are games where Alakazam will do almost nothing, when in most games Landorus and Heatran always have a task to perform which can determine whether or not you lose or win that game. Landorus and Heatran make the metagame revolve and evolve around themselves, while Alakazam can be describe as relying on the meta to help it perform its role. For that reason I disagree with your Mega Alakazam => S nom.

However, I will agree with the Zygarde => S nom (which I believe the rise is long overdue). Zygarde can be applied perfectly to the "consistent and versatile" definition I provided above. It has a large variety of potent sets in can run that are very effective, my favorites being CB and Substitute utility. It consistently performs well at high level play. The rise is 100% warranted.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I definitely agree with Zygarde to the S rank. Zygarde is by far the best Pokémon in the A+ rank for sure. Zygarde has a lot of utility and it has very few or even no counters. Almost any set you give it, and it will do its job just fine. It is also a very solid Toxapex and Heatran counter, and it even checks Landorous-T.

One nomination I would like to make is....

Weavile from B+ to A-.


I love Weavile right now, it is more effective at it's job than before. Zygarde's rise in usage warded off Weavile's not so friendly checks like Toxapex. The rise of Heatran also kind of benefits Weavile, because it generally checks Clefable, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, even though these three hard checks are still at large. Only problem with it is that it struggles hard with physical tanks and faster units, and that is all I really see. Priority is also a problem, but not really because Weavile in general is faster than a majority of the meta. The meta is also in it's advantage, because the meta has introduced more faster units that also have defensive flaws, good for Weavile. It checks any Mega Alakzam that is not running Focus Blast, it can hit Mega Latios hard, and it can easily cause forced switches due to just the fear of it killing. I much prefer Choice Band, because Choice Band helps it be even more threatening. It loves switches, as it can hit a lot of the meta pretty hard. You can say Tyranitar and Mamoswine do the job, because they too are similar in that fashion. Mamoswine hits harder and has Ice Shard, and Tyranitar is a better stab Pursuit user. The thing is, Weavile has both. Weavile has a fast stab Knock Off, which is really good and rare to see in the meta. I do think that Weavile deserves to be in A-.

Caculations

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 316-376 (88.2 - 105%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam-Mega: 264-312 (105.1 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO '

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 408-484 (106.8 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 268-324 (84 - 101.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 350-414 (102 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Jordy]

→A
To put it shortly, Tangrowth is just so good at what it does and is a cut above the rest of A-.

→A
Literally anyone who has ever seen my builder knows I spam this blob. I really think that Clefable has gotten worse. This isn't the same metagame where you face Clefable balance every other match where you click Wish to heal up your Heatran and claim a life, it's a lot more of Reuniclus, Mega Mawile etc. all of which Clefable has a hard time dealing with, and doesn't want to create free turns for in general. This claim isn't to say that Clefable is bad by any means, but it's not on the level of the rest of A+ and should drop.

→Ranked
I'm not actually going to nom this to get ranked myself but I'd like to start a bit of discussion on it. Slowbro has qualified for OLT on Kory's team, and is quite a legitimate Pokemon, it's very similar to Mega Slowbro which has slowly started to gain a bit of traction for its ability to answer a bunch of threatening Pokemon such as Zygarde, Mega Medicham, and pretty much any other physical attacker. Considering how similar Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are in terms of what they do, I believe it could get ranked aswell, possibly alongside Mega Slowbro. If you want to see some replays of Slowbro in action just go here and search for "lt52ek kory".

other noms I agree with

→A-
Could possibly see this rise to A in the future, though that is a bit of a stretch for now.

→A+

 

[lydian]

Serperior could use a rise to B+. It's seen a lot more usage during OLT and really has proven how deadly Glare can be, crippling most of its would-be switch-ins. While it did receive a rise recently if I recall correctly I think B+ is more suited for it, considering the big surge in usage and viability it recently got.

Hydreigon really should rise to B-. It's received a lot of usage in OLT as an offensive check to the likes of Heatran, Ash-Greninja, and Reuniclus. It was used in both Kickasser and Kory's qualifying teams and it's, in general, a solid breaker by virtue of its typing. It can even force out the likes of Clefable and weakened Tapu Bulu after Stealth Rock and keep itself healthy with Roost, very reliable offensive Pokémon really.

Moltres should get promoted to C. It's been a very reliable pick on several Stall teams thanks to its ability to handle the likes of Heatran and Calm Mind Clefable, huge trouble to Stall otherwise. It has received plenty of usage in high OLT ladder games, not to mention WCoP finals. All in all, a big face of Stall, and thus deserving a more auspicious ranking.

 

[vso]

--> A
I was talking to Jordy about this on discord before his post and he sniped me to this nom but i strongly support it. I had a few reasons which he never brought up for this to rise so i decided to bring it up too. i think he left out a few points so yeah here you go. clefs honestly a terrible zyg answer because it actually loses to most zygarde sets including glare(which rose a lot during olt), double dance behind screens or veils or if clef switches in, weakness policy, choice band assuming iron tail which is common or minimal chip or rolls with tarrows, resttalk assuming its knocked, groundium, steelium(hardly a set but all clef loses to this), and probably more than im missing. The tier has grown a lot more offensive, which makes clefable a lot worse and wish clef is no longer nearly as good of a set as it once was. Another outdated Clefable set is CM Rocks because its ability to get rocks vs stall is straight up removed by moltres and it also manages to be a terrible wincon because of threats like mega mawile and heatran. While Clefable is far from bad, it does not compare to the rest of A+ if you think about it given mons like zygarde, ferrothorn, toxapex, greninja-ash, and celesteela reside there. It is more on the level of pokemon such as Mega Mawile, Magearna, and Tapu Bulu.

--> A
Similarly to Clefable, in my opinion protean greninja has taken a slight hit in viability and the rest of A+ has gotten better. Greninjas utility as a offense attacker has gotten punished by the rise of pokemon such as Reuniclus which give its sets a tiny annoyance, and Celesteela, which also gives it trouble. Along with that, its speed tier is no longer what it used to be and Ice Beam Ash-Greninja's rise shadows Protean Greninja. While usage is not my only argument, Protean Greninja has lost some usage to its ash form, and similarly to Clefable, is FAR from a bad pokemon.

--> C
back to my old nomination(i have replays there), i decided to talk about this too because the tier has changed in quite a few ways. The rise of offense most definitely is annoying for it and bulky cores which I designed it to beat like Bulu/Pex/Clef/Zone, Ferro/Tran/Clef, and Pex/Ferro/Clef have dropped off. However, I still strongly believe that Snorlax should get ranked because of its solid bulk and thick fat allowing it to wall pokemon like Blacephalon and Z Move remaining a nuke which often guarantees it a kill, even against hard offense. Heatran is still super prevalent, which SteelZ has risen, Snorlax can still be a decent check to it as it can always live a flash cannon into a corkscrew cash. Outboosting most boosters in the tier like Tapu Bulu, Garchomp, Volcarona, and Clefable also helps it a lot.