Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Ryomathekillers]

M-Charizard X: B+ to B: Disagree
Nothing much has changed for zard aside from fini having a slight surge in usage, and even then I find it bollocks to drop it for that reason. Zard still does what it does, set up in the face of steels who can't do shit to it, besides even then you can run thunder punch which is devastating in electric terrain if you are really worried about Fini. Point is, keep the flaming fuckwad in B+

Magearna from A+ to S-: Agree
I honestly have no clue why this pokemon didn't rise with the others when S- was made. This mon is by all means meta defining, There are few ways to revenge kill it's shift gear set, double dance is still powerful and the AV set makes for amazing glue. By all means Magearna is more meta defining than heatran.

Hippowdon C+ -> B- Agree
Good wall, Good due to meta trends, should not be in C+ with Charizard-Y and Shuckle. Move it up. Nothing much to add

Ash-Greninja A+ -> S- Agree
Like Magearna this pokemon is meta defining, so many teams account for this fucker while building and even then all the switch-ins to Greninja are defensive which can be beaten with coverage, DP flinches or you can just set up spikes, water shuriken is amazing at revenge killing sweepers and scarfers, I honestly don't understand why this mon didn't rise, it is the face of special offense and I think that S- Reflects that.

Keldeo and Latios B+ -> B Agree
These pokemon have just gotten worse as time progressed, I really have nothing else to add that hasn't been said. Like hippowdon i'm just showing my full support to drop these digimons to B.

Mega Manectric C+ -> C/C- Agree
Seriously, just use koko, this pokemon can't do shit aside from have fire coverage and even then it can't do shit with it, just drop it. Even Alolan Raichu has a better niche in electric spam than this fucker.

Gengar B -> B+ Agree
This pokemon dropped due to blacephalon giving it competition which is something I find bollocks, Gengar can still murder many defensive backbones, has coverage to do things and hits a great speed tier that lets it outspeed kartana. It's Z-hex set is great in it's abillity to cripple switch ins to gengar such as weavile and tyranitar. I strongly believe that Gengar should go back to B+ rather than B due to it being a thousand times better than Keldeo and Latios in the current meta.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Tyranitar A -> A- Disagree

This mon is still very effective in this meta, nothing much has changed to warrant a downgrade. It’s normal CB set is amazing, and still checks the threats it needs too, don’t easily discredit this mon and what it can do. It’s definitely not as meta defining as it was with Naganadel in the tier, but don’t give it the axe when it doesn’t need it

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

M-Charizard X: B+ to B: Disagree
Nothing much has changed for zard aside from fini having a slight surge in usage, and even then I find it bollocks to drop it for that reason. Zard still does what it does, set up in the face of steels who can't do shit to it, besides even then you can run thunder punch which is devastating in electric terrain if you are really worried about Fini. Point is, keep the flaming fuckwad in B+

Gengar B -> B+ Agree
This pokemon dropped due to blacephalon giving it competition which is something I find bollocks, Gengar can still murder many defensive backbones, has coverage to do things and hits a great speed tier that lets it outspeed kartana. It's Z-hex set is great in it's abillity to cripple switch ins to gengar such as weavile and tyranitar. I strongly believe that Gengar should go back to B+ rather than B due to it being a thousand times better than Keldeo and Latios in the current meta.

This is def 'niche' (actually not really but im saying this to not start shit bc idc anymore) but uhhhh, it is entirely possible for tapu fini to become setup bait for zard x (roost - tpunch - ddance) . I'd even argue that it could rise given ppl not being basic

Also, I agree that gengar is really good in this meta and people saw shiny new blace and thought hmmmm we gonna give that a try. Bring the gar back up to b+ (at the very least). It can run a lot of sets and still checks a bunch of threats.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

I disagree with gengar rise. I think that people are biased towards it and it's more of a "make my bro OU again!" Type of deal. In practice Z-Hex is underwhelming and when you have terrible bulk how do expect to burn something and THEN abuse hex?? It's hard to use and overhyped imo. I also agree with a Charizard-X drop. It really can't do much in such a fast meta and struggles to set up as well. The roost set is ok but can't do much to stall. Drop it.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

I disagree with gengar rise. I think that people are biased towards it and it's more of a "make my bro OU again!" Type of deal. In practice Z-Hex is underwhelming and when you have terrible bulk how do expect to burn something and THEN abuse hex?? It's hard to use and overhyped imo. I also agree with a Charizard-X drop. It really can't do much in such a fast meta and struggles to set up as well. The roost set is ok but can't do much to stall. Drop it.

Charizard-X Finds many chances to set up with it's DD Roost combination, be it steel mons or mons that can't harm it due to it's defensive typing such as zapdos,kartana,magearna,ferrothron and so on and so on. I would also like to mention that Gengar is not on the table due to it's Z-hex set, it's on the table due to it's core breaking power. Personly I have had much victory with both gengar sets, and stating that it has terrible bulk doesn't really do much to change the fact that it can break cores as that is an established fact. Charizard-X Is also a wall breaker so saying that it can't do much to stall is rather wrong as the only thing on stall that stands a chance against it is quagsire and even then, it can't burn it so it's a Pp stall fest.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I disagree with gengar rise. I think that people are biased towards it and it's more of a "make my bro OU again!" Type of deal. In practice Z-Hex is underwhelming and when you have terrible bulk how do expect to burn something and THEN abuse hex?? It's hard to use and overhyped imo. I also agree with a Charizard-X drop. It really can't do much in such a fast meta and struggles to set up as well. The roost set is ok but can't do much to stall. Drop it.

As a person that uses zard x i can def say that it sets up easily almost every game lol. its v v easy to set up a ddance especially if ur the roost set. You can even flex and setup on tapu koko. my personal favourite is setting up on scarf kartana :). lastly lol idgaf about gengar lmao he can stay uu for all i care. just stating my opinion which is def true af

edit for @Ryomathekillers : 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 104 HP / 16 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Electric Terrain: 149-176 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO. This is def setting up.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

As a person that uses zard x i can def say that it sets up easily almost every game lol. its v v easy to set up a ddance especially if ur the roost set. You can even flex and setup on tapu koko. my personal favourite is setting up on scarf kartana :). lastly lol idgaf about gengar lmao he can stay uu for all i care. just stating my opinion which is def true af

I do agree but,
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Electric Terrain: 153-180 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard X cannot set up on koko.
I do think that a rise may be argueable for charizard X however since setting up is rather easy for the bastard and it's a menace once it's done that.


Edit for mellowyellowhd it can set up on the Shuca set, forgot about that.

 

[Mellow]

I do agree but,
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Electric Terrain: 153-180 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard X cannot set up on koko.
I do think that a rise may be argueable for charizard X however since setting up is rather easy for the bastard and it's a menace once it's done that.

Tapu Koko has been running Shuca a lot recently, which does like 35 with Thunderbolt. To avoid this being a one-liner - I agree with a Gengar rise. Z-Hex is definitely the set it would rise for, as it dismantles balance, beating every counterplay balance usually packs for Gengar / offensive ghosts (focus blast for ttar, and nothing likes a boosted hex / Z move). It pairs really well with stuff that struggles to break Balance / fat in general, like Mega Lopunny would be a partner to consider imo. Also maybe Greninja as it loves CelePexVenu all being chipped / outright dead.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

As a person that uses zard x i can def say that it sets up easily almost every game lol. its v v easy to set up a ddance especially if ur the roost set. You can even flex and setup on tapu koko. my personal favourite is setting up on scarf kartana :). lastly lol idgaf about gengar lmao he can stay uu for all i care. just stating my opinion which is def true af

edit for @Ryomathekillers : 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 104 HP / 16 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Electric Terrain: 149-176 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO. This is def setting up.

Ok I kind if see the argument for Zard X now and it should stay where it is, but gengar???? I really don't. I don't want to get in a big argument but idt it's really that good. It's overhyped and not nearly as good as it is on paper or people claim it to be.

 

[Colonel M]

Think we need another cleanup. Doing the needful later today.

 

[Colonel M]

My colleague Leo took care of the one post that was concerning. I just recently deleted the other.

A couple things I really want to make clear because the thread had a few moments where it was going south:

• I highly suggest keeping nominations to only a subtier rise or drop. When you nominate a large spike like the Latios drop or the Dragonite rise, there's a lot of questions that have to be naturally asked. Some examples include "should other Pokemon be brought up or meet towards the middle to compensate, and if so where?" While I agree that regular Latios isn't really in the best of shape within the metagame, to suggest a significant drop like to C+ (like the Chansey nomination) is a bit high. Let's ignore the fact that the Chansey nomination was absolutely terrible for a moment.
  
  The moral of the story is - try to stick to a subtier and let the VR tyrants users determine if a Pokemon should drop or rise significantly or not.

• I would try to avoid using empty arguments if possible. There's been a couple posts in the thread lately that have irked me because they don't really say anything other than "I disagree and that's about it". In fairness I know the first quote was at least backed up with some argument and that they were mostly trying to concede on dropping Zard X; however, the major focal point is please avoid making empty posts like this in the future:
  

  Ok I kind if see the argument for Zard X now and it should stay where it is, but gengar???? I really don't. I don't want to get in a big argument but idt it's really that good. It's overhyped and not nearly as good as it is on paper or people claim it to be.

  Zard is in no way overhyped. Saying it’s slow in the current meta is false. Zard has DD raiding it's speed so it’s not slow in no way. Every mon has checks, that doesn’t mean something should drop.

I didn't want to lock this for too long because, for what it is worth and in spite of what others have been stating, the posts in general haven't been too bad, but others have definitely bit into bad nominations like Chansey. If you see bad nominations (and you can claim that they are legitimately bad and have reasons for this) in the future, contact me personally. I will at least determine if an argument is fine or if it should be attended to. Do NOT respond to the nomination either. I'll grant Omari P the exception this once and other users that did nominations like this prior to, so they won't get in trouble, but let's try to follow the rules and consider what nominations should really be addressed instead of those that are either blatant troll posts or uneducated posts - which are treated much more effectively through education (or warnings) through moderators.

I'll re-open this for now since the posts in question that I felt were being obnoxious were taken care of. I allowed the Latios post for now, but I highly advise anyone arguing the Pokemon down to stick to what I said above and keep it a subrank drop.

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I just want you to all to know I lurk all the time in this thread.

I just want to say that both Greninja and Ash-Greninja deserve a rise. Please feel free to correct me if I make any mistakes.

from A- to A: Highly Agree
This post basically sums up a good reason why to move Greninja back to A. Good post, Altervisi.

I'm gonna nominate

Greninja from A- to A, regular Greninja seems to be seen much more often lately, finding good success with it's Scarf set, the metagame has only become faster and faster and with Scarf Greninja is really starting to shine thanks to its ability to consistently revenge kill even boosted threats, mainly Koko, Volcarona and Ash-Greninja. Protean AoA/Spikes sets with Expert Belt/Z-Moves are also underrated, being able to effectively bluff Scarf.

It's gotten to a stage now where I no longer auto assume the opponent is carrying Battle Bond, and this sort of enters a catch-22 where it becomes more viable and common as it is surprising and unpredictable, which in turn makes it less viable as people come to expect it. However its efficiency in revenge killing fast threats, as well as viable items, its versatility in coverage, allowing for plenty of splashability and useful tech in Taunt Toxic/Spikes makes me believe this is worth a raise. I also wanted a nomination that wasn't totally off the fucking wall in the thread.

Greninja feels unpredictable with all the moves it has. It can set up spikes and be coverage, use z-crystals or choice items, generally choice scarf. Protein Stab is really important if you want to ward off mons that resist it, which is really important in the meta. Considering there are mons that can resist its Hydro Pumps hard, it is nice to have Protein stab. Being fast and using toxic and spikes is worthy indeed for a raise. Also it is a good solution to force off Landorous-T and Zygarde, as it can just ice beam them and instant kill them. Scarf Greninja is beginning to shine indeed, Volcarona, Koko and Ash-Greninja are being used more often in a meta where speed is becoming slightly more important. Regular Greninja is worthy of a raise in my opinion.

from A+ to S-: Highly Agree
It does get checked hard by Assault Vest users and bulky grass and water-types and so on, but all top mons have its checks even. Ash-Greninja is solid and it does represent the meta-game. It out-speeds a lot of the meta and hits really hard with Hydro Pump. I think it really does shape the meta-game where lots of teams often have grass-types to cover this thing. Also being a good spike-setter is really important in the meta, as the meta slowly transforms into a fast and strong meta where getting damage can be important. A lot of mons need to switch in when Ash-Greninja is around, so it basically gets free spikes set up. Speaking of the meta changing into a fast and powerful one, I think Ash-Greninja primly represents that fast and powerful meta. I agree it should move from A+ to S-.

 

[Finchinator]

NEW SLATE TIME WE CLOSING AGAIN GG

 

[Finchinator]

Full Slate Vote

Magearna from A+ to S- - A+, A+, S-, A+, A+ -> A+
Tapu Koko from A+ to S- - A+, A+, S-, A+, A+ -> A+
Hawlucha from A to A+ - A, IDK, A+, A, A -> A
Greninja from A- to A - A, A, A, A, A -> A
Mega Medicham from A- to A - A-, A-, A, A, A -> A
Magnezone from A- to A - A-, A, A-, A, A -> A
Tornadus-T from B+ to A- - A-, A-, A-, A-, A- -> A-
Mega Latios from B+ to A- - IDK, A-, B+, A-, IDK -> A-
Mega Latias from B to B+ - B+, B+, B+, B+, B+ -> B+
Victini from B- to B - B-, B, B, B, B- -> B
Amoonguss from B- to B - IDK, B-, B, B-, IDK -> B-
Buzzwole from UR to C-/C - IDK, UR, UR, IDK, IDK -> UR
Avalugg from UR to C- - C-, IDK, IDK, IDK, IDK -> C- LOL
Staraptor from UR to C- - UR, C-, C-, C-, C- -> C- (OMARIP2020)

Tyranitar from A to A- - A, A, A-, A, A -> A
Hoopa-Unbound from A- to B+ - A-, IDK, B+, A-, A- -> A-
Mega Charizard X from B+ to B - B, B, B, B, B -> B
Mega Venusaur from B+ to B - B+, B+, B, B+, B+ -> B+
Latios from B+ to B - B, B, B, B+, B -> B
Blacephalon from B to B- - B-, B-, B-, UR, B- -> B-
Mantine from B to B- - B-, B-, B-, B-, B- -> B-
Bisharp from B- to C+ - C+, IDK, C+, IDK, C+ -> C+
Mimikyu from B- to C+ - C+, C+, C+, C+, C+ -> C+
Serperior from B- to C+ - B-, B-, C+, C+, C+ -> C+
Stakataka from B- to C+ - C+, C+, C+, C+, C+ -> C+
Dragonite from C+ to C/C- - IDK, C-, C, C-, C- -> C-
Nihilego from C to C- - IDK, C-, C-, C-, C- -> C-

Clickable Full Slate Vote

Rises

• Greninja from A- to A
• Mega Medicham from A- to A
• Magnezone from A- to A
• Tornadus-T from B+ to A-
• Mega Latios from B+ to A-
• Mega Latias from B to B+
• Victini from B- to B
• Avalugg from UR to C-
• Staraptor from UR to C-

Reasoning

• Protean Greninja dropped in usage a bit for a while, so we moved it down to A- during this lull, but it never became too ineffective and recently it shot up once again, especially LO Spike + 3 Attack variants, which did not see much usage in past months. All things considered, Protean Greninja is a solid, A tier Pokemon right now that simply has too much utility, versatility, and usage to stick down in A-.
• Mega Medicham has been on the verge of going up to A for a while and I think now the council just had another supporter or two, in all honesty. Mega Medicham's effectiveness is no surprise -- it hits hard and it is not particularly slow either. One of the tier's better mega evolutions and breakers climbing on up to A should be no surprise.
• Magnezone's ability to trap things has always been noteworthy, but now the Choice Scarf variant is straight-up surging, especially when paired with things like Mega Latios. Ultimately, the fact that Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor are fairly common and the fact that you can neutralize or make quick work of Kartana plays a large impact on gameplay even if Magnezone does not touch the field. Pair this with the surprisingly practical impact it has as a fast Volt Switcher and offensive threat and you have yourself Magnezone at its peak in modern generation OU in the eyes of many. Rising up to A may be a bit more controversial than some of the other nominations, but every trend as of late seems to favor it in some way, shape, or form and it seems to be much more comparable to other A rank Pokemon than A- in terms of overall viability.
• Tornadus-T just keeps climbing up the ladder of the VR as of late thanks to the Z-Hurricane set gaining popularity and it should be no surprise that it moves up once again as it appears to be close to a mainstay nowadays, leaving A- as a fair ranking for the time being.
• Like Tornadus-T, Mega Latios also is a fairly trendy pick dating back to some second half SPL games. It is insanely threatening and can provide a lot of support, such as being an actual switch-in to Heatran in this day and age. All things considered, the combination of Psychic and Earthquake paired with a valuable defensive presence and utility potential adds up to a rise to A-.
• Mega Latias is not the easiest to throw on to teams, nor the most fun Pokemon out there, but it does beat a lot of teams and can take some pretty out-there measures to work around if you lack straight-up counterplay. Winning multiple noteworthy tournament games as of late and seeing increased usage paired with this sweeping potential becoming a widely-observed reality leads to it rising up to B+.
• Victini is a bit of an underrated Pokemon nowadays, finding some use with Choice Band and even Choice Scarf sets as opposed to the essentially outcasted, previously hyped-up Z boosting variants that died down during late SM. It is pretty potent and can take control of games if given the right support and not facing one of the few counters or Pursuit when it comes to the Choice Banded variant whereas the Choice Scarf variant is still not entirely explored, but it seems to be at least good enough to rise up from the depths of borderline non-serious Pokemon in B- to a respectable place in B for the time being.
• Well, everyone besides one person voted to abstain, but Avalugg has seen usage on some stall teams, most notably the one ABR used earlier on in USM, and it has a rough niche on those builds, so it deserves a rank on these merits in C-.
• Staraptor's Choice Scarf set has been increasing in usage on the ladder lately and it has some particularly vocal advocates within this thread, so the council decided to vote on it and it appeared that most people favored it rising. Personally, I voted for C-, too, but I used a bit of a different set with Z-Brave Bird and Magnezone support. I cannot say too much on the Choice Scarf variant, but I would advise seeing the posts of OmariP for a more passionate, detailed, and experienced perspective that may also be a tad chaotic!

Drops

• Mega Charizard X from B+ to B
• Latios from B+ to B
• Blacephalon from B to B-
• Mantine from B to B-
• Bisharp from B- to C+
• Mimikyu from B- to C+
• Serperior from B- to C+
• Stakataka from B- to C+
• Dragonite from C to C-
• Nihilego from C to C-

Reasoning

• Mega Charizard X has fallen from grace and now sees not much usage. This is for good reason, too, seeing as it requires too much support while not providing a ton defensively and not being a consistent enough offensive threat in the context of the tier to warrant building around or catering to using in most contexts. All things considered, Charizard X is the epitome of mediocrity and B rank suits this best currently.
• Latios has not only faced competition from mega variants, but also dropped in usage as a Choice Scarfer with the increase in Defog distribution. While this is a good day for the role compression police, it is not such a good day for the previously dominant Dragon/Psychic type of past generations and it now sees itself down in B rank for the time being.
• 
  no touch
• Mantine had a period where people took advantage of its niche, but now it is back to hardly seeing any usage. This should be no surprise considering it is slow and passive, leaving itself ample opportunity to get taken advantage of or simply overwhelmed. Top this off with more Defog competition, less Keldeo and even somewhat less Volcarona for it to have actual purpose for defensively, and a more congested tier offensively and you find that Mantine really has no true place at the moment, thus leading to it dropping once more, now to B-.
• I actually lack experience with Bisharp, but given the posters in the thread, it is clear that Bisharp is not only hard to fit, but does not sweep many teams and gets neutralized by a lot of noteworthy elements of the metagame, such as Psychic Terrain thwarting any potential sweeping chances and Tapu Koko or Greninja resisting Sucker Punch and easily revenge killing it. The previous face of mid-late XY HO has fallen from grace and also dropped into C+ rank.
• For Mimikyu, see: Blacephalon.
• Serperior may not be awful, but it isn't good enough to warrant usage at the moment. There are too many things working against it and too many things it needs to do at once, especially moveset wise, in order for it to be a consistent enough on-paper threat to draw appeal in the teambuilder. This combined with a clear lack of results and, therefore, effectiveness leads to the Grass snake dropping to C+ as well.
• Stakataka seemed to have potential to be the face of a new and improved Trick Room archetype, but this never truly took off and now it is just another mediocre addition to the tier with a niche on Trick Room teams or simply with an OTR set. Too much works against it for it to be consistent and while it is quite strong, that does not compensate for other shortcomings that ultimately do Stakataka in and lead to it, too, dropping to C+. Expect more future drops if nothing changes in the coming weeks.
• Dragonite serves little-to-no purpose in the metagame and is blatantly unexplored, so it is dropping to the depths of fringe viability where other comparable Pokemon reside.
• Nihilego has been used in late SM a bit and even sporadically throughout early USM, but never to much avail and it certainly does not have many appealing qualities when put in the context of the metagame, so it continues to fall-off and drops down to C-.

Bit of a different format for this slate and I think I like it a bit better. Anyway, OP changes will be reflected within the next day and there are no formal discussion points. Happy posting!

 

[Finchinator]

This isn’t a “reflect on the last slate” thread and it isn’t an open place to disagree with the council either. Post a nomination or don’t post at all. I get dozens of PMs about this thread and the ones I respect the most are ones asking why something happened in a civil fashion — this is the proper way to address this, not here once the slate is over with. Thank you to everyone who actually did this.

This is very simple and apparently almost every poster since I posted the last slate didn’t understand it, so I’ll reiterate it this once and next time it’ll lead to the thread being locked again and people potentially getting infracted

 

[Vengeance417]

Mew from B > B+

With Medicham on the rise again, Mew is still one of the most consistent switchins to it in the tier, and is still an excellent Defog user that isn't weak to rocks. It also has the ability to threaten common Stealth Rock setters such as Lando-T and Mega Tyranitar with Will-o-Wisp, as well as crippling other hard hitting physical mons such as Tapu Bulu, Mega Lopunny, Zygarde, and Mamoswine to name a few.

 

[SeniorGibus]

This thread isn’t a “reflect on the last slate” thread and it isn’t an open place to disagree with the council either. Post a nomination or don’t post at all. This is very simple and apparently almost every poster since I posted the last slate didn’t understand it, so I’ll reiterate it this once and next time it’ll lead to the thread being locked again and people potentially getting infracted

Well not to break a new rule and disagree with anything that was said, but since when is a nom required for a post? Is reflecting and giving support/disagreement to current noms disallowed? If so, shouldn't a good amount of posts prior be deleted? Sorry I had to be the one to say this. Inb4 infraction. No disrespect intended, as i stated in the post that was deleted.
Welp, I'm sitting here with my post I spent a good amount of time on deleted, I'll try to reform it into something that won't piss someone off mention the current slate.
Well, I feel like the hippodown nom that I technically didn't start but made a long post about a while ago should be brought up again because of the prevalence of tapu koko and hawlucha in the metagame, as well as zyg being as good as ever. It also cockblocks a ton of physical set up sweepers and in a tough situation can phase out a pokemon such as SG mag with its amazing HP and respectable special bulk. Or just kill it with eq but :/
Washtom has also fallen off in usefulness recently and its placement among the current B+ rank is baffling. It can hardly check any physical attackers and faces competition with other water type defoggers. It's one niche is volt + defog which is nice and all for getting in threatening sweepers such as volcarona or a zard, but considering you're gona have a hard time staying alive long enough to do that because of your meh bulk, I don't think it's a large enough niche for B+. Drop it to B.
Gengar has a strong argument to move up to B+ because of its z hex set which eats balance and can wisp set up mons such as zygarde which can really annoy and impede zygarde's ability to.. be good.

Mew from B > B+

With Medicham on the rise again, Mew is still one of the most consistent switchins to it in the tier. It also has the ability to threaten common Stealth Rock setters such as Lando-T and Mega Tyranitar with Will-o-Wisp, as well as crippling other hard hitting physical mons such as Tapu Bulu, Mega Lopunny, Zygarde, and Mamoswine to name a few.

Yea, mew is quite good right now, a decent lucha check that spreads status and annoys the hell out of offense teams with wisp. It can also lure in heatran with a ground move.
Anyways, original nom which I feel inclined to put now:
Jirachi B- to B. This might seem odd at first, but after you consider the fact that it's the only reliable lele switch in with good recovery that can take on pretty much every set with ease, as well as proving the niece of extremely rare wish support (yes, I know that the wish set isn't on smogdex but if you check contributions and corrections it's qc'd and ready to be put on there, so don't use the "it's not a set" argument.) Wish protect allows it to stay above water for almost the entire game and can function as a bulu switch in if it's not CB. Tldr move jirachi up for being the most reliable lele and SG magerna check while also proving rocks/wish support to your team. Peace.

 

[Felixx]

Mew from B > B+

With Medicham on the rise again, Mew is still one of the most consistent switchins to it in the tier, and is still an excellent Defog user that isn't weak to rocks. It also has the ability to threaten common Stealth Rock setters such as Lando-T and Mega Tyranitar with Will-o-Wisp, as well as crippling other hard hitting physical mons such as Tapu Bulu, Mega Lopunny, Zygarde, and Mamoswine to name a few.

I disagree with this, on the basis that Mew has 4 moveslot syndrome which means it can't adequately deal with a ton of top tier threats such as Heatran, Pex and Ferro, since its moveset will look like this...

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 156 Def / 112 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled / Roost
- Defog / Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
- Will-O-Wisp

Healing move is mandatory, defog/stealth rock allow it to actually support the team, Ice Beam lets it deal with sub Zygarde, and Wisp lets it actually (sorta but not really) cripple Pex and Ferro, so it clearly dosen't have a slot for EQ or Earth Power to hit Tran, and the way teams are built these days, Heatran switchins don't actually exist so giving it free turns is awful. I guess a viable option is to forgoe defog/stealth rock entirely and run two attacks Wisp, but role compression is important. Also Mew is pretty awkward to actually fit on a team, like if you need a defogger that beats defensive Lando then go ahead and use Zapdos, which isn't worn down by U-turn spam and checks a billion other threats like Kart, M-Pinsir, Lucha, non-CM Clef (pressure stall), M-Sciz, Steela etc. or even Torn-T if you want to go a more offensive route of hazard control. Mew: B to B+ : Disagree.

 

[Leo]

Well not to break a new rule and disagree with anything that was said, but since when is a nom required for a post? Is reflecting and giving support/disagreement to current noms disallowed? If so, shouldn't a good amount of posts prior be deleted? Sorry I had to be the one to say this. Inb4 infraction. No disrespect intended, as i stated in the post that was deleted.
Welp, I'm sitting here with my post I spent a good amount of time on deleted, I'll try to reform it into something that won't piss someone off mention the current slate.
Well, I feel like the hippodown nom that I technically didn't start but made a long post about a while ago should be brought up again because of the prevalence of tapu koko and hawlucha in the metagame, as well as zyg being as good as ever. It also cockblocks a ton of physical set up sweepers and in a tough situation can phase out a pokemon such as SG mag with its amazing HP and respectable special bulk. Or just kill it with eq but :/
Washtom has also fallen off in usefulness recently and its placement among the current B+ rank is baffling. It can hardly check any physical attackers and faces competition with other water type defoggers. It's one niche is volt + defog which is nice and all for getting in threatening sweepers such as volcarona or a zard, but considering you're gona have a hard time staying alive long enough to do that because of your meh bulk, I don't think it's a large enough niche for B+. Drop it to B.
Gengar has a strong argument to move up to B+ because of its z hex set which eats balance and can wisp set up mons such as zygarde which can really annoy and impede zygarde's ability to.. be good.


Yea, mew is quite good right now, a decent lucha check that spreads status and annoys the hell out of offense teams with wisp. It can also lure in heatran with a ground move.
Anyways, original nom which I feel inclined to put now:
Jirachi B- to B. This might seem odd at first, but after you consider the fact that it's the only reliable lele switch in with good recovery that can take on pretty much every set with ease, as well as proving the niece of extremely rare wish support (yes, I know that the wish set isn't on smogdex but if you check contributions and corrections it's qc'd and ready to be put on there, so don't use the "it's not a set" argument.) Wish protect allows it to stay above water for almost the entire game and can function as a bulu switch in if it's not CB. Tldr move jirachi up for being the most reliable lele and SG magerna check while also proving rocks/wish support to your team. Peace.

If your post doesn’t provide any useful insight on an existing nom or isn’t a nom in itself it’s likely to be deleted. Your previous post was merely commenting the previous slate which was already voted on and doesn’t need any further discussion. In the future please avoid posting to ask why something was deleted in this thread, you can do that in PMs with the same effect without flooding the thread.

edit: this also includes 1-liners, if you see a nom and you think its bad you don’t need to drop a 1-liner to point that out, if you truly wanna make the poster realize their mistake you can PM/VM them. This is everyone’s last warning.

 

[aogalicia]

I'd like to nominate

from C+ to B-
I've recently started using Ditto as a revenge kill / sweeper and found it to be really good. As Ditto can act as a scout to see what my opponents moves be to further let you set up on a specific pokemon. Ditto's mu against stall can be great for it by being knocked off and becoming a huge nuisance to stall. The only bad thing I can think about Ditto is if an opponent's mon is behind a sub or cm unaware Clef. Other than that it can provide a good amount of support to a team.

Here’s a replay of Ditto taking out half the team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-723945205

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Mega Heracross from B- to B
Mega Heracross is low key amazing atm. Why, you ask? Because nobody uses it’s only switchin, Unaware Clefable. Many teams rely on Lando to check Heracross. Fortunately, Lando is not a very good Heracross answer because Heracross simply clicks Swords dance on the switch and 2HKOs Lando with Rock Blast. The bug separates itself from Mega Medicham by anhniliating Stall while retaining the ability to crush bulky teams.
A common misconception about Heracross is that it is deadweight against Offensives teams. This is simply not true. Heracross comes in on Scarf Kartana, Lando, Magearna, and AV Tapu Bulu on Offense, meaning it has plenty of opportunities to come in on offense to wreck havoc.
Heracross is very underrated atm, and I think it fits better with the mons in B more so than the B- mons.

 

[havokchomp123]

I'd like to nominate

from C+ to B-
I've recently started using Ditto as a revenge kill / sweeper and found it to be really good. As Ditto can act as a scout to see what my opponents moves be to further let you set up on a specific pokemon. Ditto's mu against stall can be great for it by being knocked off and becoming a huge nuisance to stall. The only bad thing I can think about Ditto is if an opponent's mon is behind a sub or cm unaware Clef. Other than that it can provide a good amount of support to a team.

Here’s a replay of Ditto taking out half the team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-723945205

The best way I can sum up Ditto is that it is a wild card bitches. YEEEHAWW!!

But I will say that ditto is possibly one of the most underrated revenge killers in the game. Scouting is also a nice bonus Of course, Ditto also requires a lot of proper prediction to be used properly, and it also has to risk speed tying with some sweepers (looking at you scarf kartana) which is a problem. On top of that, knock off can cause it to lose its revenge killing capabilites right out of the gate, though against stall teams this is a good thing.

That being said, I still think ditto is a good mon but, like I said, it is a wild card. B- is a solid spot for it.

 

[Kutscher]

I

Mew from B > B+

With Medicham on the rise again, Mew is still one of the most consistent switchins to it in the tier, and is still an excellent Defog user that isn't weak to rocks. It also has the ability to threaten common Stealth Rock setters such as Lando-T and Mega Tyranitar with Will-o-Wisp, as well as crippling other hard hitting physical mons such as Tapu Bulu, Mega Lopunny, Zygarde, and Mamoswine to name a few.

I agree with this,(i had made this nom some time ago) mew got some hate hype when everybody started hating this, but its a Nice answer to lucha and medi that are rising, and beating a lot of hazzard setters(i still think that mew is way better than gliscor)

 

[Ampha]

Ok gonna nominate this thing out:

UR->C-/C
So you all are probably asking,why Kommo-o would be ranked out? and what is it's niche? Well,i'm gonna explain it
Kommo has got lots of new "toys" as USUM came in,but what makes it a thing is SUB Salac on Webs teams(Though Kommo's signature Z move can be good as well sometimes)

As many of you know it got belly drum as one of it's new moves and Substitute does abuse of that,since subs let it with 75% HP minus 50% as of belly drum being used,let it get on Salac berry's range,which in fact abuse of it's 110 Base attack and 85 base speed

The set:

Hide

Kommo-o @ Salac Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
- Substitute

->Drain punch let it recover the HP it lost plus it is a good STAB for this set
->Thunder punch covers it against Toxapex,celesteela,skarmory,etc which OHKOs
->Sub+Belly drum is the main set idea
->Bulletproof is the best ability for kommo normally


Replays to show what i'm saying:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-693276300 Kommo cleaned in after mew had fainted
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-688317920 Kommo cleaned out after setup vs Bulu
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-693343303 Kommo got 2 kills+let the way for blace to cleanout
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684943165
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684169895
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-684133656
those 3 above are basically the same idea
Shoutouts for Cacatua and Caetano for the replays

Also considering Pex's normally run Sp def than def helps in fact kommo(even if +6 Thunderpunch already kills it),some common meta pokes also help it to setup,such as Ferrothorn,AV bulu,Zapdos(normally without HP Ice) and some other more
It's main threats are normally faster (Scarf) users which don't touch on webs such as Latios or Hawlucha after losing seed,(Unaware) clefable(Tpunch does 75% with Magic guard),Unaware quagsire or webs being taken off in general(since lele and other things can easily pass it that way with scarf)
C fits better for it in my opinion but C- can be good as well

Well,gonna try to echo this nom out again (bc all kommo noms seem to be kinda ignored since november),Kommo is a decent mon to be ranked (it's better than Avalugg or azelf tbh) and it got a use on SPL on this match: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-348044
Kommo literally ripped the opposing team apart(even if pex was haxed out), and even if tornadus T and Latios M can annoy it a bit,it sets up pretty easily on the same things I said before,and with Scarf latios losing a bit of presence on the meta gives it a bit more security after it setups,while it can also combo with tapu koko to force out opposing grass type entries which kommo setups on(and also gives a chance for kommo to OHKO clefable with terrain boost:
+6 252 Atk Kommo-o Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Electric Terrain: 382-450 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery)

 

[RufflesPro]

C ---> C+

Rain offense is one of the stronger offensive teams rn and I think qwilfish is VERY underrated in rain. Of course I'm talking about the SD/double stab/explosion set.

Qwilfish is really good right now on rain because the rise of usage of some mons that are used to check rain: Toxapex, AV Tapu Bulu and AV Tangrowth. Qwilfish destroys all three of them and makes the job of its teammates much easier. +2 LO poison jab destroys both Tapu Bulu (you dont need +2 for tapu bulu ofc) and tangrowth and +2 explosion OHKOs Toxapex, allowing mons such as Greninja or Kingdra to spam hdyro pump with no fear. Even SpD Ferrothorn, which rain struggles with a lot, takes a huge load from explosion:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 238-279 (67.6 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The fact that is faster than M-swampert is also nice because there are some things qwil can outspeed that m-swamp doesn't.

Only problem is that Qwilfish doesn't find much to set up as it's bulk is sub bar. Your best bet is a mon choice locked into a resistant move, or to predict the switch and SD. It's not a mon thats going to sweep, but it's one that will put a good enough of a dent on the enemy team to allow its teammates to sweep