Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v4 - DLC 2 Edition

[Trade]

Sorry LouisIX, I agree with you on the Miraidon angle, but I need to disagree with your views on Basculegion.

Basculegion has recently surge in discussion about its brokeness and uncompetitive nature since SCL. To me, Basculegion has numerous limitations:
1. Literally zero contribution in the early game, meaning it has extremely low tolerance to Offensive team.

Why does it matter what it does in the early game? It's going to OHKO in the late stages of the game. You're literally always going to get in the endgame anyway. But even if we take your statement at face value. It only takes 1/2 KOs to get it online. Wave Crash in the rain also does a boatload to so many things in the meta. And once again taking this statement to heart, why should we have a meta that favours Offense over everything else? On the opposite coin of your argument, Defensive teams are literally unviable because of Basculegion alone, let alone with the bikes available.

2. Heavily rely on webs, occasionally in Trick Room.

That may be true, but that's for one major threat: Choice Scarf Koraidon. CS Koraidon needs you to be Scarf and Webs if you ever hope to outpace it. But that forces the Koraidon player to keep CS Koraidon healthy, which is not normally how it is played, and it is also the most susceptible to hazards, meaning it can be worn down easily.

3. Heavily abusing the threat of Koraidon in the teambuilder and its typing advantage of Koraidon

Okay, so you admit that it's well-positioned in the current meta?

4. Relies on tera.

This is just factually incorrect. You don't even need Tera to break down Arceus, it's super easy to wear down unless it's Recover Arceus, but then you're running Recover E-killer, which in itself, is terrible.

I think 1,2 and 4 are relatively easy to understand so I will elaborate on 3 a bit more.

Koraidon is a premier fighting type so far. Basculegion/Last respect as a ghost type threat, undoubtedly benefited from the premier fighting type Koraidon suppressing the usage of darks and normals.

On the other hand, Basculegion itself hold one of the best typing against Koraidon, the water/ghost. With Tera fairy, it punishes all 3 stabs Koraidon is running most of the time which makes it one of the heaviest punisher to a locked Koraidon. Please be reminded that Scarf Koraidon is recognized as the best scarfer in the tier by far.

With the above observation, I sincerely believed that when discussing about the necessity of Basculegion/Last respect Suspect, we cannot just put away Koraidon, and thats why I truely believed that Basculegion/Last respect should be the last thing in concern.

Thanks for reading.

Just as Kate mentioned, let's not fall into this habit of banning or not banning a broken mon because we theorise it does better or worse in a meta that doesn't exist. You ban what's broken and deal with any more broken things after. Just cause there is a chance that Basculegion could be more manageable after a Koraidon ban, doesn't mean we should wait til one that may never come. Basculegion is a problem now, so we should treat it as such.

It's clear the playerbase agrees that this Pokemon is toxic based on the survey. There's no reason to give it a chance. It's literally just an OHKO move with an immunity. We shouldn't have to play around a low-skill high-reward mon like this.

 

[ademalawer]

Hey y'all, wanted to write this for a while and me and my friends have been laddering and just hit top 10 as "ghetto fab" (I plan to RMT a team with a name theme coming out soon hence why that nick, we have been playing the alt for 3 days now)

Me personally, I have been playing Ubers for a good 3 weeks now, because it's always seemed like a fun tier and I've grown pretty sick of DLC2 OU at the moment. I wanted to discuss things that I think are healthy for the tier, unhealthy, and some of my scalding hot takes on how I think the meta could be much better than where it's currently at.

Problem #1:

The reason I am starting this with Miraidon and not Koraidon is because I agree with Zest Of Life's position on the two legends, on how Koraidon is essentially a two trick pony (granted, it pulls those tricks off damn well) that has different counterplay that all though I think is somewhat restricting in the builder, that counterplay does exist. Although Koraidon isn't "not a problem", it is the lesser of the two evils when looking at Miraidon as well. The grip Miraidon has in building is disgusting, and the sheer amount of different sets it can run to fill whatever is needed on different teams is equally disgusting. From Double Dance, to Scarf, Specs, Stallbreaker CM + Taunt, or Pivot Taunt to fully shut down webs, this Pokemon has too much variance to the point I don't think every team can always play around it. This would be fine, if its sheer power output didn't exceed that of a Mega-Rayquaza (literally the catalyst for Anything Goes), and can nuke its defensive checks like Ting-Lu, Arceus-Ground, and Groudon that aren't even true counters (didn't mention Clodsire but that also does pretty well, thanks Nyx!). Miraidon constricts the meta game way too much right now, and in tandem with Basculegion, which I will talk about next, just goes beyond insane and is super restricting in the builder. As for Miraidon, at the very least it deserves a suspect test ASAP.

Problem #2:

I can't speak for tournament usage, but as for the ladder right now, Basculegion has a very unhealthy affect on the meta and how people are dealing with it are incredibly limited. You may think, hey, I can just use my handy dandy Arceus to stop Last Respects from 6-0ing me! Well, little Timmy, Basculegion on some builds (Bascuelgion BO RMT Coming Soon), Bascuelgion can run Tera Blast Fighting, which has a favourable roll to kill bulky E Killer with no hazards. Out of all the sets Basculegion can run, I think some are better than others (Scarf being the worst in my opinion), but the Jolly HDB set on Webs is really insane, since It doesn't need the speed boost to outspeed Miraidon and Koraidon, and is in general very strong on Webs. The most random Tera Normal counters have popped up in an attempt to counter Last Respects, from what I've seen Kyogre (shoutout Icemaster), Arceus-Ground, and Eternatus. On top of that, it's not like it takes a lot or that you need to sack your entire team to get Basculegion to start breaking, compounded with Tera Ghost it can break through bulkier Arceus's aswell. Commiting what I think is this a lot in an otherwise useless Tera Normal just to not get steam rolled by Basculegion is more than unreasonable, and I believe deserves a suspect test atleast, as Basculegion does have some limitations (granted, those limitations are not very limiting, but I haven't read many opinions on Basculegion and would like to see what others have to say)

Please let me know what you guys think, again I am sort of new to the tier but I do really enjoy it and would like to see it become a better tier

 

[Nyx]

I honestly don’t disagree with your conclusions but a few things did stand out

and can nuke its defensive checks like , , and that aren't even true counters.

It feels hella disingenuous to list Groundceus and Groudon here but not Clodsire when the former two (bar near max max Groundceus) fail to check pivot Miraidon, let alone Specs. Hazard chip makes non-max max Groundceus so incredibly vulnerable to double Draco, and Groudon just explodes. You’re definitely understating the offensive counterplay to Miraidon here too but I get that that wasn’t the main point at hand.

but I haven't read many opinions on and would like to see what others have to say)

Give this thread a read, numerous people have stated their thoughts on it, including the entire council bar Fogbound atm.

Also, please, please, please, please, PLEASE stop using the minisprite in place of the Pokémon name. It makes it significantly harder to actually read your post, and undermines the legitimate points your making (see Uberscord atm which is more focused on the fact that you’ve used minisprites instead of the content of your post itself).

 

[ademalawer]

It feels hella disingenuous to list Groundceus and Groudon here but not Clodsire when the former two (bar near max max Groundceus) fail to check pivot Miraidon, let alone Specs. Hazard chip makes non-max max Groundceus so incredibly vulnerable to double Draco, and Groudon just explodes. You’re definitely understating the offensive counterplay to Miraidon here too but I get that that wasn’t the main point at hand.

I do agree, I was understating offensive counterplay but for some of the sets I don't think there is much (namely the Agility set). But yeah, I've also been running more Groundceus teams and it does do a job of checking most Mirai sets pretty well

Also, I didn't preach Clodsire as much here but did in my person VR which is in it's own thread

Also, please, please, please, please, PLEASE stop using the minisprite in place of the Pokémon name. It makes it significantly harder to actually read your post, and undermines the legitimate points your making (see Uberscord atm which is more focused on the fact that you’ve used minisprites instead of the content of your post itself).

Damn I'm sorry didn't know people feel that strongly, this is like my 3rd real Smogon post, I'll change that right now its a quick fix if people don't like them.

Thanks for linking the thread about Basculegion, I'll be giving it a read when I get home from the gym!

 

[YubelVT]

Gamers wake up he's cooking with Terapagos again. In my endless quest to find some form of hazard removal that can also provide defensive presence, I've returned to Terapagos. Yeah Giratina is the mainstay but he's also the... only form of hazard removal people expect, meaning he's easy to play around. Not so with Terapagos. Most people when they see Terapagos will expect the CM tera hog set, but they don't realize the utility he has. He's not the strongest thing in the world, but in a tier full of dragons, an ice beam will regularly be doing 30%, which is noteworthy chip. Tera Starstorm will be doing the same damage to non ice-weak targets that don't resist it. He's also the perfect lead into webs teams, perfectly denying webs. Terapagos is not without its flaws however. Its ice beams, while doing good chip, aren't forcing switches. It is relatively passive, and its bulk, while good, is not impenetrable.
Terapagos @ Leftovers
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 116 SpA / 100 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Tera Starstorm
- Ice Beam
- Roar
This is the set I've been messing with for a little bit. The Special Attack investment is to make the ice beams sting just a little more but you could dump those into the defenses if you wanted. I didn't even mention that this thing's utility movepool goes far beyond roar and spin. It can be a hazard setter, it can use toxic, it can... actually that's about it, but my point is that it's versatile and it's bulky and it gets the job done, probably.

 

[Zest of Life]

Hey y'all, wanted to write this for a while and me and my friends have been laddering and just hit top 10 as "ghetto fab" (I plan to RMT a team with a name theme coming out soon hence why that nick, we have been playing the alt for 3 days now)

View attachment 608787View attachment 608788​

Me personally, I have been playing Ubers for a good 3 weeks now, because it's always seemed like a fun tier and I've grown pretty sick of DLC2 OU at the moment. I wanted to discuss things that I think are healthy for the tier, unhealthy, and some of my scalding hot takes on how I think the meta could be much better than where it's currently at.

Problem #1:

The reason I am starting this with Miraidon and not Koraidon is because I agree with Zest Of Life's position on the two legends, on how Koraidon is essentially a two trick pony (granted, it pulls those tricks off damn well) that has different counterplay that all though I think is somewhat restricting in the builder, that counterplay does exist. Although Koraidon isn't "not a problem", it is the lesser of the two evils when looking at Miraidon as well. The grip Miraidon has in building is disgusting, and the sheer amount of different sets it can run to fill whatever is needed on different teams is equally disgusting. From Double Dance, to Scarf, Specs, Stallbreaker CM + Taunt, or Pivot Taunt to fully shut down webs, this Pokemon has too much variance to the point I don't think every team can always play around it. This would be fine, if its sheer power output didn't exceed that of a Mega-Rayquaza (literally the catalyst for Anything Goes), and can nuke its defensive checks like Ting-Lu, Arceus-Ground, and Groudon that aren't even true counters (didn't mention Clodsire but that also does pretty well, thanks Nyx!). Miraidon constricts the meta game way too much right now, and in tandem with Basculegion, which I will talk about next, just goes beyond insane and is super restricting in the builder. As for Miraidon, at the very least it deserves a suspect test ASAP.

Problem #2:

I can't speak for tournament usage, but as for the ladder right now, Basculegion has a very unhealthy affect on the meta and how people are dealing with it are incredibly limited. You may think, hey, I can just use my handy dandy Arceus to stop Last Respects from 6-0ing me! Well, little Timmy, Basculegion on some builds (Bascuelgion BO RMT Coming Soon), Bascuelgion can run Tera Blast Fighting, which has a favourable roll to kill bulky E Killer with no hazards. Out of all the sets Basculegion can run, I think some are better than others (Scarf being the worst in my opinion), but the Jolly HDB set on Webs is really insane, since It doesn't need the speed boost to outspeed Miraidon and Koraidon, and is in general very strong on Webs. The most random Tera Normal counters have popped up in an attempt to counter Last Respects, from what I've seen Kyogre (shoutout Icemaster), Arceus-Ground, and Eternatus. On top of that, it's not like it takes a lot or that you need to sack your entire team to get Basculegion to start breaking, compounded with Tera Ghost it can break through bulkier Arceus's aswell. Commiting what I think is this a lot in an otherwise useless Tera Normal just to not get steam rolled by Basculegion is more than unreasonable, and I believe deserves a suspect test atleast, as Basculegion does have some limitations (granted, those limitations are not very limiting, but I haven't read many opinions on Basculegion and would like to see what others have to say)

Please let me know what you guys think, again I am sort of new to the tier but I do really enjoy it and would like to see it become a better tier

I’m going to keep this short & to the point. With major tournaments like WCoP & UPL coming up soon, I think the sentiments expressed on this & the Tiering Policy thread have established a consensus that one of Miraidon or Last Respects needs to be suspected asap (it seems received more support for a suspect first).

Personally, I don’t really care which one gets suspected first*, but one of them needs to hit the chopping block soon. It’s going to be March next week & it’s time to improve the quality and player satisfaction of SV Ubers.

Edit: *These two elements should (ideally) be suspected back-to-back, although a suspect first can potentially pave the path for more Last Respects counter-play; I can’t say the same for the converse.

 

[Edgar]

I’m going to keep this short & to the point. With major tournaments like WCoP & UPL coming up soon, I think the sentiments expressed on this & the Tiering Policy thread have established a consensus that one of Miraidon or Last Respects needs to be suspected asap (it seems received more support for a suspect first).

Personally, I don’t really care which one gets suspected first*, but one of them needs to hit the chopping block soon. It’s going to be March next week & it’s time to improve the quality and player satisfaction of SV Ubers.

Edit: *These two elements should (ideally) be suspected back-to-back, although a suspect first can potentially pave the path for more Last Respects counter-play; I can’t say the same for the converse.

Can you explain why Miraidon being gone pave the path for better Last Respects counter-play? I am genuinely curious as to why people think this would be the case. The main pokemon oppressing Dark-types and Normal-types is actually Koraidon, not Miraidon.

Sure, Miraidon makes you run a Sp.def ground on passive teams but I don't think that directly correlates to how many options there are to check Basculegion/Last Respects. In fact, it can be argued that it is harder to position Last Respects with Miraidon around due to the Boots Taunt set being common and makes it harder for webs to position Basculegion.

Not to mention that fast pokemon and priority options that can help check Miraidon can also help to offensively check Basculegion before it sets up Agilty or is able to abuse Trick Room. Zacian-C, Chien-Pao and Extremekiller Arceus being good examples of this. All of this is of course irrelevant if Basculegion is running Tera Fighting but, I don't see how it would be any different with Miraidon gone.

 

[Zest of Life]

Can you explain why Miraidon being gone pave the path for better Last Respects counter-play? I am genuinely curious as to why people think this would be the case. The main pokemon oppressing Dark-types and Normal-types is actually Koraidon, not Miraidon.

Sure, Miraidon makes you run a Sp.def ground on passive teams but I don't think that directly correlates to how many options there are to check Basculegion/Last Respects. In fact, it can be argued that it is harder to position Last Respects with Miraidon around due to the Boots Taunt set being common and makes it harder for webs to position Basculegion.

Not to mention that fast pokemon and priority options that can help check Miraidon can also help to offensively check Basculegion before it sets up Agilty or is able to abuse Trick Room. Zacian-C, Chien-Pao and Extremekiller Arceus being good examples of this. All of this is of course irrelevant if Basculegion is running Tera Fighting but, I don't see how it would be any different with Miraidon gone.

Howdy!

I think the big thing with Miraidon being gone is it frees up a slot that can be used to better check Last Respects Basculegion. All the points you made are valid, but you get the freedom of dedicating an additional slot (or Tera slot) for Basculegion with the removal of Miraidon. So for example, instead of being forced to run a SpDef Ground Type, you can now run a back-up Tera Normal or Dark type. On ladder, I've seen some players running Tera Normal on odd choices like Eternatus and Kyogre just to deal with Last Respects. While you certainly can try to fit such niche Tera types, I think the fact that nearly every team composition outside of Hyper Offense is forced to run a Bulky SpDef Ground type & back-up Tera Grounds to deal with Miraidon makes it more oppressive to the builder than Last Respects Basculegion. Of course, this is all hypothesizing in a Miraidon-less meta. I'm fairly certain Last Respects will still be busted either way, because if you don't carry Normal types like EKiller, back-up Tera Normal & Dark types, or priority from Chien-Pao, Kingambit, or Gira-O, your team is basically cooked. At least getting rid of Miraidon can enable you to run these checks more freely.

I'll quote something Aberforth mentioned in the Policy Review thread:

"But why Miraidon before Last Respects then? Essentially, because the counterplay to Last Respects is so limited in the teambuilder, suspecting Last Respects would not have a meaningful impact on the rest of the tier, or people's enjoyment of it. It is possible for the added flexibility in teambuilding to give rise to more Basculegion counterplay when an incredibly specially bulky Ground type isnt mandatory on all non-offensive teams, and if it continues to be a problem, we could look at it then. But the most undoubtedly impactful suspect would be the one that had the greater meta influence, and given Basculegion's relative lack of influence on the tier in comparison to how good it is, I favour tabling Basculegion until later in the generation."

 

[Edgar]

Howdy!

I think the big thing with Miraidon being gone is it frees up a slot that can be used to better check Last Respects Basculegion. All the points you made are valid, but you get the freedom of dedicating an additional slot (or Tera slot) for Basculegion with the removal of Miraidon. So for example, instead of being forced to run a SpDef Ground Type, you can now run a back-up Tera Normal or Dark type. On ladder, I've seen some players running Tera Normal on odd choices like Eternatus and Kyogre just to deal with Last Respects. While you certainly can try to fit such niche Tera types, I think the fact that nearly every team composition outside of Hyper Offense is forced to run a Bulky SpDef Ground type & back-up Tera Grounds to deal with Miraidon makes it more oppressive to the builder than Last Respects Basculegion. Of course, this is all hypothesizing in a Miraidon-less meta. I'm fairly certain Last Respects will still be busted either way, because if you don't carry Normal types like EKiller, back-up Tera Normal & Dark types, or priority from Chien-Pao, Kingambit, or Gira-O, your team is basically cooked. At least getting rid of Miraidon can enable you to run these checks more freely.

I'll quote something Aberforth mentioned in the Policy Review thread:

"But why Miraidon before Last Respects then? Essentially, because the counterplay to Last Respects is so limited in the teambuilder, suspecting Last Respects would not have a meaningful impact on the rest of the tier, or people's enjoyment of it. It is possible for the added flexibility in teambuilding to give rise to more Basculegion counterplay when an incredibly specially bulky Ground type isnt mandatory on all non-offensive teams, and if it continues to be a problem, we could look at it then. But the most undoubtedly impactful suspect would be the one that had the greater meta influence, and given Basculegion's relative lack of influence on the tier in comparison to how good it is, I favour tabling Basculegion until later in the generation."

I think the point about "being able to run things more freely with Miraidon gone" is overexaggerated when it comes to Last Respects. The fact that you could run Normal-teras and things that check Basculegion better is not directly adjacent on whether Miraidon exists or not, I am positive you can easily do that right now despite Miraidon being a factor in the builder. All of the pokemon you mentioned are already viable and Miraidon doesn't even make them worse. I would argue that, with the exception of Giratina, all those pokemon you mention can easily fit on a team. With Miraidon gone, the fact that you still need to run a resist or immune to Last Respects wouldn't go away and that it "might" make pokemon more viable is something we don't know for sure. The gist of it is that, Last Respects requires very specific counterplay, and that is hardly adjacent to Miraidon outside of Miraidon itself being an obstacle to it.

The Aberforth quote you picked heavily underestimates the impact Last Respects has and frankly, it is hardly backed down. If it was just restricted to the builder then the solution would be to prepare accordingly for it in the builder and be done with it. A pokemon that relies so heavily on how the endgame is handled such as Baculegion can only have so many practical solutions because you still have other 5 pokemon to worry about. Making the opponent waste their tera on a different mon in order to position Basculegion is something those teams thrive on. Theoretical solutions in the builder are not always a certainty, they need a certain degree of pragmatism which Basculegion can sometimes circumvent.

Furthermore, meaningful impact and enjoyment are things you can't measure until the suspect is removed from the tier. I don't think you can really use them to make a point. I could say that with Last Respects gone I could avoid running a Normal-tera pokemon on balance and can afford to run Tera Ground mons more constantly in order to check Miraidon better. But again, I can't know that for sure until the Last Respects is gone, and I won't know if the tier will be more enjoyable for me or not until the aforementioned suspect is not a factor, it is all theoretical.

I also want to point out that, it is not a surprise that Basculegion teams have been rising in usage over the last weeks both in tournaent play and on the ladder. Clearly people have realized there is something to that dynamic and want to use it as much as possible. This is not relevant on how "broken" and "uncompetitive" it really is but it is relevant on how much direct impact it has in reality.

 

[Zest of Life]

I think the point about "being able to run things more freely with Miraidon gone" is overexaggerated when it comes to Last Respects. The fact that you could run Normal-teras and things that check Basculegion better is not directly adjacent on whether Miraidon exists or not, I am positive you can easily do that right now despite Miraidon being a factor in the builder. All of the pokemon you mentioned are already viable and Miraidon doesn't even make them worse. I would argue that, with the exception of Giratina, all those pokemon you mention can easily fit on a team. With Miraidon gone, the fact that you still need to run a resist or immune to Last Respects wouldn't go away and that it "might" make pokemon more viable is something we don't know for sure. The gist of it is that, Last Respects requires very specific counterplay, and that is hardly adjacent to Miraidon outside of Miraidon itself being an obstacle to it.

The Aberforth quote you picked heavily underestimates the impact Last Respects has and frankly, it is hardly backed down. If it was just restricted to the builder then the solution would be to prepare accordingly for it in the builder and be done with it. A pokemon that relies so heavily on how the endgame is handled such as Baculegion can only have so many practical solutions because you still have other 5 pokemon to worry about. Making the opponent waste their tera on a different mon in order to position Basculegion is something those teams thrive on. Theoretical solutions in the builder are not always a certainty, they need a certain degree of pragmatism which Basculegion can sometimes circumvent.

Furthermore, meaningful impact and enjoyment are things you can't measure until the suspect is removed from the tier. I don't think you can really use them to make a point. I could say that with Last Respects gone I could avoid running a Normal-tera pokemon on balance and can afford to run Tera Ground mons more constantly in order to check Miraidon better. But again, I can't know that for sure until the Last Respects is gone, and I won't know if the tier will be more enjoyable for me or not until the aforementioned suspect is not a factor, it is all theoretical.

I also want to point out that, it is not a surprise that Basculegion teams have been rising in usage over the last weeks both in tournaent play and on the ladder. Clearly people have realized there is something to that dynamic and want to use it as much as possible. This is not relevant on how "broken" and "uncompetitive" it really is but it is relevant on how much direct impact it has in reality.

Fair enough. Ultimately, running multiple Tera types to protect yourself against one threat goes to show how centralizing (oppressive) it is.

I’d argue Miraidon has a greater stronghold on the tier because it has existed longer and mandates the use of SpDef Ground Types. Unless you’re facing Double Dance Miraidon or Scarf Tera Electric Miraidon, allocating more Tera Ground types doesn’t help nearly as much as running more Tera Normal and Dark types to prevent a potential game-ending Last Respect sweep.

Ultimately, you are absolutely correct that player enjoyment is subjective. I just want to see some tiering action take place within the following week because collectively experienced and general community members have identified what they find most concerning and action needs to be taken now.

Not to open another can of worms, but no (non-suicidal) move has ever come close to being as oppressive or powerful as Last Respects. Even if it sets a “bad precedent” with regard to Ubers tiering philosophy, why not just quickban the move? I genuinely think suspecting the move would ultimately be a “waste of time” when we know it’s inevitably going to get banned.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Gamers wake up he's cooking with Terapagos again. In my endless quest to find some form of hazard removal that can also provide defensive presence, I've returned to Terapagos. Yeah Giratina is the mainstay but he's also the... only form of hazard removal people expect, meaning he's easy to play around. Not so with Terapagos. Most people when they see Terapagos will expect the CM tera hog set, but they don't realize the utility he has. He's not the strongest thing in the world, but in a tier full of dragons, an ice beam will regularly be doing 30%, which is noteworthy chip. Tera Starstorm will be doing the same damage to non ice-weak targets that don't resist it. He's also the perfect lead into webs teams, perfectly denying webs. Terapagos is not without its flaws however. Its ice beams, while doing good chip, aren't forcing switches. It is relatively passive, and its bulk, while good, is not impenetrable.
Terapagos @ Leftovers
Ability: Tera Shift
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 116 SpA / 100 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Tera Starstorm
- Ice Beam
- Roar
This is the set I've been messing with for a little bit. The Special Attack investment is to make the ice beams sting just a little more but you could dump those into the defenses if you wanted. I didn't even mention that this thing's utility movepool goes far beyond roar and spin. It can be a hazard setter, it can use toxic, it can... actually that's about it, but my point is that it's versatile and it's bulky and it gets the job done, probably.

Without boots, this thing is gonna get completely destroyed by hazards on its own, and tera shell is gonna get deactivated and makes you super vulnerable to getting nuked by electro drift or whatever else in this tier. there is a reason this thing is garbage, and if you don't tera, so many things wall you with taunt stopping any roar shenanigans. i suggest putting boots if you want this thing to have actual defensive utility against the sweepers. but then again it cant stop offensive NDM either if it has set up.

 

[YubelVT]

Without boots, this thing is gonna get completely destroyed by hazards on its own, and tera shell is gonna get deactivated and makes you super vulnerable to getting nuked by electro drift or whatever else in this tier. there is a reason this thing is garbage, and if you don't tera, so many things wall you with taunt stopping any roar shenanigans. i suggest putting boots if you want this thing to have actual defensive utility against the sweepers. but then again it cant stop offensive NDM either if it has set up.

Good points. I think if bulky offense ever becomes a viable team style in ubers, Utility Terapagos is gonna have some value, but as for now my attempts to shove it into fast offense just don't make sense. I'm just desperate for literally anything that can remove hazards and I wanna be quirky and different.

 

[YubelVT]

dawg where did the post I was replying to go that said BO was the best team style

my reply for context
"Fair enough. My only exposure to the metagame is low ladder on showdown and as such I see (and lose to) a lot of jank. Any competent teams would be appreciated because I don't really know where to look. I'd prefer faster paced teams but anything works"

 

[SiTuM]

I’d argue Miraidon has a greater stronghold on the tier because it has existed longer and mandates the use of SpDef Ground Types. Unless you’re facing Double Dance Miraidon or Scarf Tera Electric Miraidon, allocating more Tera Ground types doesn’t help nearly as much as running more Tera Normal and Dark types to prevent a potential game-ending Last Respect sweep.

sorry not sure i get it, did you mean that

has a greater stronghold on the tier because it has existed longer and mandates the use of SpDef

Types.
Unless you’re facing Double Dance or

, allocating more

types doesn’t help nearly as much as running more

and

types to prevent a potential game-ending Last Respect sweep ?

 

[Zest of Life]

sorry not sure i get it, did you mean that

has a greater stronghold on the tier because it has existed longer and mandates the use of SpDef

Types.
Unless you’re facing Double Dance or

, allocating more

types doesn’t help nearly as much as running more

and

types to prevent a potential game-ending Last Respect sweep ?

Did you know Toxic Spikes + powered up by the power of friendship viva la

solves the meta?

 

[Edgar]

The Current State of the Metagame v2

I had intended to write this sort of post right after Ubers Kick-Off but for many reasons I couldn't find the time to do it. Nevertheless, I think at this stage of SV Ubers I feel like it is important to talk about many of the topics I've seen people talk about during the past few weeks. Yes, I am aware a PR thread is currently live but, I feel like that what I will talk about here doesn't really apply in that thread. This is more of a personal post that I wanted to make some time ago.

What I want to talk about is the premise of the current SV Ubers metagame, what my thoughts about it are and my take on how we are currently approaching suspects that will potentially get something banned. Since the first suspect will probably happen very soon, I want to put my perspective out there, not really as a council member but, as a player and member of the community.

First of all, as I mentioned in my post of the PR thread and something I've mentioned before in this very thread. I think Ubers is currently pushing for decisions based on sentiment and overall bias. You can put forward your thoughts about controversial topics but, when we are clearly reinforcing the fact that people are unsatisfied and that level of enjoyment is very low for the current meta to be accepted, then we are entering into a conglomerate not of objective reasoning but, personal bias and arbitrary reasonings. For example, this is my favorite generation of Ubers and I am very satisfied with the current meta, needless to say, I enjoy it. Imagine if I use this as a reason to tell you nothing should be done.

I am not saying change should be avoided, far from it. If there is a need for change then you best believe I will be one of the first people to try and make the case for it. Despite this, when it comes to SV Ubers, I don't see a metagame where something is broken and we need to address it as soon as possible, I see a metagame with a lot of potential. Some people in this thread have pointed SV needs fixing, I find this very pretentious and misleading. SV Ubers is a metagame that offers a great deal of variety and depth that other gens don't offer in the same way. If by fixing you mean banning Miraidon then let me tell you that you are absolutely wrong. I won't go into detail as to why I believe Miraidon shouldn't even be considered for suspect again, I've put my thoughts in the PR thread.

In my eyes, the direction of outcry this generation has followed over its lifetimes has been akin to throwing mud at the wall and see what sticks. Soon after Home metagame came out, there was a thread for Tera, after DLC1, there was massive outcry for Koraidon, DLC2 came out and Koraidon again, only for it to be recognized as a healthy presence and now, a few months after, Miraidon and Last Respects. Kinda reads like people are constantly trying to force change due to them disliking a metagame and trying to roll the dice in order to get something they want out of it, instead of objectively looking at it.

Minority said it in their post in the PR thread, we are far beyond trying to treat this metagame like we did in the past. SV Ubers is a generation unlike any other and for it to be changed, it has to be changed at its core and frankly, I don't think it's possible to do so at this point. The best chance for SV to be something different than what it currently is happened with the thread about Terastalization, plain and simple.

SV Ubers in general is a more offensive and proactive metagame than it is defensive and passive. While it is not completely one-sided, offense is more consistent and allows for more variety in the teambuilder. While passive teams are viable, they drive themselves into some corners because some of the big threats are far easier to check offensively than defensively, the biggest example being Miraidon. Is this such a terrible thing? Absolutely not, while I agree it is ideal for every archetype to be on equal ground, this is hardly the case for many Ubers metagames, SV being one of them. Regardless, the fact that a metagame is more offensive than defensive shouldn't be the cause for attempting to ban somehting, if it has enough counterplay, regardless of its nature, then you have to question whether it is necessary to do something about it. Banning something because it is objectively unhealthy is diferent to asking to ban something because you don't like its presence.

Adaptation is a huge part of pokemon, Scarlet of Violet is not a metagame that takes this aspect of the game out of the player's hands. In fact, SV encourages the player to have some sense of exploration, variety and creativity. It is very easy for repetitive team structures to fall apart at some point. If there is a lack of variety when it comes to teams, I can wholeheartedly say that it is because people aren't trying hard enough, not because it is an inherent problem in the metagame. Let me perfectly blunt, the fact that people are asking for the ban of something as varied in counterplay as Miraidon at this stage, honestly speaks more of the community than the pokemon itself.

Like I said, change is not a net negative but, I find it hard to fathom that, change driven by the wrong reasons will be something positive.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Kate]

I find the above post to be disingenuous at best and actively insulting at worst. You mention "objectivety" quite a lot while remaining completely subjective yourself.

I think Ubers is currently pushing for decisions based on sentiment and overall bias.

Finding a tier unfun and ascribing that to a Mon someone believes is the most broken element in the meta is not bias, it's literally how every tiering decision is made.

when we are clearly reinforcing the fact that people are unsatisfied and that level of enjoyment is very low for the current meta to be accepted, then we are entering into a conglomerate not of objective reasoning but, personal bias and arbitrary reasonings.

The idea that SV Ubers has some objective truth to it and that people cannot state they want a pokemon banned because it has extremely easy and reliable ways around counterplay, both defensive and offensive, reads to me like your subjective line of thinking based on preconceived notions.

Imagine if I use this as a reason to tell you nothing should be done.

You are

In my eyes, the direction of outcry this generation has followed over its lifetimes has been akin to throwing mud at the wall and see what sticks. Soon after Home metagame came out, there was a thread for Tera, after DLC1, there was massive outcry for Koraidon, DLC2 came out and Koraidon again, only for it to be recognized as a healthy presence and now, a few months after, Miraidon and Last Respects. Kinda reads like people are constantly trying to force change due to them disliking a metagame and trying to roll the dice in order to get something they want out of it, instead of objectively looking at it.

Laughable to say that people just want tiering action because they want change and not the year and two dlcs that have made the Metagame completely unrecognizable from where it started. It's also weird that you lump everyone yourself into a conglomerate after just complaining about that. For what it's worth, I still want all of these elements banned and I wanted them banned initially, too. Am I being subjective or objective? Your condescending tone seeps into this paragraph with that first line.

SV Ubers is a generation unlike any other and for it to be changed, it has to be changed at its core and frankly, I don't think it's possible to do so at this point.

Absolutely meaningless statement based off you assuming the pro ban camp only wants that for "change". Also entirely subjective.

Regardless, the fact that a metagame is more offensive than defensive shouldn't be the cause for attempting to ban somehting, if it has enough counterplay, regardless of its nature, then you have to question whether it is necessary to do something about it.

No one but you phrased the argument like that. In fact the entire argument is that miraidon does not have adequate revenge killers due to low splashability, set variety, and tera. Is your whole argument phrased around you being objectively right while taking a subjective stance?

If there is a lack of variety when it comes to teams, I can wholeheartedly say that it is because people aren't trying hard enough, not because it is an inherent problem in the metagame. Let me perfectly blunt, the fact that people are asking for the ban of something as varied in counterplay as Miraidon at this stage, honestly speaks more of the community than the pokemon itself.

This is so insanely disrespectful to the many top level players who have complaints about the Metagame and want miraidon banned. It's also just straight up wrong? I've barely changed what I've brought for UWC every week and won each game more or less convincingly. Perhaps variety by using awful mons like Terapagos and iron treads can be good, but I have yet to see it. I can acknowledge that's me being subjective though.

Like I said, change is not a net negative but, I find it hard to fathom that, change driven by the wrong reasons will be something positive.

I agree! The only issue is that your wrong reasons are you viewing your take on the Metagame as The Right One, and basing all your opinions around that. I'm fairly sure that a lot of it is just bad phrasing and not intentional degradation, but it comes off like that and this post irked me quite a lot. You can disagree with banning anything while not demeaning those who think the opposite.

 

[S-Matrix]

tldr: I don't think subjective arguments in this context should be discounted perforce. The idea that having a subjective basis is grounds for immediately disqualifying an argument is not only wrongheaded, but further, it makes any community-informed tiering impossible. You can argue compellingly that a metagame will change in a specific way following some tiering action, but you cannot further argue that those changes are objectively "for the best".

------------

For a lot of users, I'm sure this post will read like a restatement of the obvious. That said, I feel like offshoots of recent discussions - specifically regarding questions of objectivity and subjectivity - have appeared in tiering/metagame discussion threads since time immemorial. Granted, Ubers has sorta been a special case among the tiers, but I am regardless pretty convinced that if you want to talk about things like when suspect tests should be carried out, how problematic elements are identified and why, etc: there's no objective "bedrock" atop which you can make normative claims (i.e. claims about how things "should be"). This isn't to say you can't make an argument advocating for any particular course of action; instead, what I mean to say is that on a fundamental level, such an argument must rely on sentiment as its basis. This is, I had assumed, why suspect tests exist in the form they do, aka as ostensibly democratic processes initiated by vocal community dissatisfaction, with any resultant action being based on the sentiments of a more demonstrably qualified fraction of that community. In the absence of a way to communicate why a player dislikes a metagame purely using language, we must defer, instead, to that group's more "fuzzy" or intuitive understanding of that metagame.

To better try and explain what I mean when I call this a linguistic problem, let's take the most extreme case as our example. Imagine a pokemon - we'll call it "px" - which, upon sending it out, wins you the game instantly. I don't know anyone who would argue that interesting or engaging gameplay could arise from the presence of such a mon in any metagame. The problem, however, is that even a seemingly obvious claim such as "px is unhealthy for the metagame and therefore should be removed from it" entails the adoption of a specific norm: healthiness, and in the case of px, just playability in general, is itself sufficient to evaluate whether a mon deserves to have some form of action taken on it. And that's something I tend to agree with, on average... but if someone genuinely has fun in such an environment, or feels (somehow) "strategically engaged" in such a way that there is skill expression taking place, do we ignore that sentiment? Maybe it seems obvious to do so, but what if most of a playerbase feels that way, or most of the "qualified" playerbase does? Do we assume it's some larger prank or conspiracy to ruin a metagame? Do we defer to an even "higher rung" - a more qualified subset of the community, and take their sentiments to be the most trustworthy? Do we submit as our response to those players who report enjoying the metagame, "you don't actually feel that way"?

The answer to this question, at least if we try and interpret the practices and statements of tier representatives up to this point, has been: No. Players cannot with language alone dismiss the underlying sentiments of other players, and so we (or rather, the TDs and co.) try instead to account for the sentiments of the playerbase in totality, as best we can. In this lens, the arguments we make for/against action being taken should be used as a means to communicate why we might feel a certain way, or to encourage fellow players to look at the metagame from a different vantage, but I don't think an argument that proceeds by saying "this pokemon does at least THIS amount of damage to a would-be check and as such is unhealthy and therefore should be banned" is any more substantive (at least in that specific form) than a declaration that "playing against this pokemon is straight up not fun", because neither represents a complete account of the overall idea we're trying to convey. The former skips the entire subjective component, and the latter (insofar as it represents an attempt at a persuasive argument) skips the part where you try and convince others why this specific metagame element should be looked at in attempts to make the tier more enjoyable, or represent how it might do so by changing matchup dynamics, builder creativity, etc. To reiterate one last time, those things aren't virtues in themselves, but instead they identify why you believe you would enjoy a metagame more without the problem element present, and is meant to appeal to others who might feel the same way.

 

[YubelVT]

pls no ban miraidon I like him :(

in all seriousness it is probably a good idea to get rid of him. Whenever I'm building a team I always have to both
A. Justify to myself not putting a miraidon set (usually the pivot set) on the team
B. Ask myself if Ditto is enough to cover the miraidon on the opponent's team (it's also covering like 3 other juicy targets it's not just for Miraidon)
B is oftentimes yes but scarf Miraidon existing kinda fucks with that idea to the point that I have unironically considered scarf Deoxys-Attack in the past. Ting Lu does ok enough but still gets chunked incredibly hard and also doesn't really fit on the kinds of teams I like to play. Objectively I have skill issues but even still, Miraidon is fucked up and probably needs to go

 

[Bruxish supremacy]

pls no ban miraidon I like him :(

in all seriousness it is probably a good idea to get rid of him. Whenever I'm building a team I always have to both
A. Justify to myself not putting a miraidon set (usually the pivot set) on the team
B. Ask myself if Ditto is enough to cover the miraidon on the opponent's team (it's also covering like 3 other juicy targets it's not just for Miraidon)
B is oftentimes yes but scarf Miraidon existing kinda fucks with that idea to the point that I have unironically considered scarf Deoxys-Attack in the past. Ting Lu does ok enough but still gets chunked incredibly hard and also doesn't really fit on the kinds of teams I like to play. Objectively I have skill issues but even still, Miraidon is fucked up and probably needs to go

Just run Goat wo chien with max HP max sp. Def restalk leech seed to wall it..

 

[YubelVT]

pls no ban miraidon I like him :(

in all seriousness it is probably a good idea to get rid of him. Whenever I'm building a team I always have to both
A. Justify to myself not putting a miraidon set (usually the pivot set) on the team
B. Ask myself if Ditto is enough to cover the miraidon on the opponent's team (it's also covering like 3 other juicy targets it's not just for Miraidon)
B is oftentimes yes but scarf Miraidon existing kinda fucks with that idea to the point that I have unironically considered scarf Deoxys-Attack in the past. Ting Lu does ok enough but still gets chunked incredibly hard and also doesn't really fit on the kinds of teams I like to play. Objectively I have skill issues but even still, Miraidon is fucked up and probably needs to go

I would like to formally apologize for keeping miraidon in the tier even though I didn't actually participate in the suspect

 

[Heatranator]

Uh, so I've been getting into ubers lately, and I want to say something everybody most likely already knows, but basculegion is busted. I've personally being using an adaptability scarf set on sticky web team to make sure that whether or not webs goes up, basculegion will sweep. It also helps against boots mon who think they have an auto win. I have gone from 1100s to 1400s just with this team in the last few days, and I don't see any reason to keep last respects around (maybe houndstone could also be used to destroy any bulkier mons that can take a last respects, on second thought that might be overkill).

 

[Pigbeeef]

Uh, so I've been getting into ubers lately, and I want to say something everybody most likely already knows, but basculegion is busted. I've personally being using an adaptability scarf set on sticky web team to make sure that whether or not webs goes up, basculegion will sweep. It also helps against boots mon who think they have an auto win. I have gone from 1100s to 1400s just with this team in the last few days, and I don't see any reason to keep last respects around (maybe houndstone could also be used to destroy any bulkier mons that can take a last respects, on second thought that might be overkill).

Last respects IS busted, but at the same time Ubers is mostly fake teams from 1000-1400, so even if you use some normal team you can usually breeze through with ease.
its pretty obvious that this ladder has the second fakest low ladder of all time behind AG.

 

[YubelVT]

Last respects IS busted, but at the same time Ubers is mostly fake teams from 1000-1400, so even if you use some normal team you can usually breeze through with ease.
its pretty obvious that this ladder has the second fakest low ladder of all time behind AG.

how do I build a real team while also putting ditto on it (I'm NOT losing to Zachary See ever again)

 

[corvere]

how do I build a real team while also putting ditto on it (I'm NOT losing to Zachary See ever again)

ditto functions as a glue Mon in teams where you can't fit certain counterplay(like arc fairy to check koraidon for example) for some mons. it's able to revenge kill scale shot koraidon mostly, but also zacian like you said. it can work on bulkier teams and offensive teams alike, although I think you'll find more success using it in offense. this team I built for uwc tried to showcase ditto's strengths, even if it's outdated now. the team can probably work if you change etern's tera and make gliscor uturn.