Approved by Arcticblast
Note: When you give out your ladder rank, please specify what rank method it falls under (Glicko2, ACRE). When you show your Glicko2, please also show your deviation along with it!
Tier Shift Research Week is an investigation for Pokemon that have potential in the Tier Shift metagame, be it in stats, movepool or typing to possibly become an innovative choice in the metagame. These Pokemon haven't really seen the limelight and have been rather neglected for a bit of time. I (With help from you guys in the Tier Shift forums) have selected 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 RU, and 1 NU Pokemon that I feel could see rise of cool sets or the ability to fulfill a specified niche. Actually the title might be rather misleading; in fact, each installment (assuming there is enough attention for more to come) is probably going to last until the discussion ends. So keep up the discussion guys!
If you have anything to say for these Pokemon, it would be great to share your thoughts on it and post them! It doesn't matter if you used them or fought them in a match, we would definitely like to hear your thoughts. When you do that, please try to back up your claim with replays if you can or some damage calculations. However, I still encourage you to try out the Pokemon for yourself!
So, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Skarmory, Empoleon, Mandibuzz, and Piloswine!
Questions to think about as this Research Week progresses:
Please make sure that there is a lot of discussion. This discussion can get really good! You can also talk about it on #othermetas on IRC as well. Hopefully by the end of this discussion, we can get a general consensus on how well these Pokemon perform and how they perform.
Alright, time for the fun part of this! This will last for the duration of the Research Week specified above (April 19 - May 3).
Taken from TNT's OU Edition
It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created, highlighting great posts.
A proper sign-up sheet should look something like this:
[BOX]Username: The Unlucky one
Alt: SuperwiiTest
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject(s): Mandibuzz,Piloswine[/BOX]
Remember to update your original post with ladder progress and comment about your experiences! With that done, we look forward to see what you have to say!
Research Week - Tier Shift Edition!
Hosted by The Unlucky one and PureQuestion!
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Duration: April 19 - May 3
*: This is an arbitrary date. This Research Week will end when discussion ends.
Hosted by The Unlucky one and PureQuestion!
Duration: April 19 - May 3
*: This is an arbitrary date. This Research Week will end when discussion ends.
Note: When you give out your ladder rank, please specify what rank method it falls under (Glicko2, ACRE). When you show your Glicko2, please also show your deviation along with it!
Tier Shift Research Week is an investigation for Pokemon that have potential in the Tier Shift metagame, be it in stats, movepool or typing to possibly become an innovative choice in the metagame. These Pokemon haven't really seen the limelight and have been rather neglected for a bit of time. I (With help from you guys in the Tier Shift forums) have selected 1 OU, 1 UU, 1 RU, and 1 NU Pokemon that I feel could see rise of cool sets or the ability to fulfill a specified niche. Actually the title might be rather misleading; in fact, each installment (assuming there is enough attention for more to come) is probably going to last until the discussion ends. So keep up the discussion guys!
If you have anything to say for these Pokemon, it would be great to share your thoughts on it and post them! It doesn't matter if you used them or fought them in a match, we would definitely like to hear your thoughts. When you do that, please try to back up your claim with replays if you can or some damage calculations. However, I still encourage you to try out the Pokemon for yourself!
- Don't just shun a Pokemon right away, try and take a good look at the Pokemon, see how it may work and try and give it a spin on the ladder.
- It's alright to theorymon here, but make it clear that you are theorymoning. However, at the end of the Research Week, we need to know how efficient our research subjects are in the Tier Shift metagame, as well as what sets work best with them.
- Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon we choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. We want discussion to stay on topic about the Pokemon we are researching. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.
So, the 4 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Skarmory, Empoleon, Mandibuzz, and Piloswine!
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Questions to think about as this Research Week progresses:
- How useful are these Pokemon in Tier Shift?
- What sets can they run effectively?
- What problems does this Pokemon have?
- What edge does this have over other Pokemon in the metagame?
- What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams?
- Are they worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed?
- If this was to rise in usage, what would you expect to see from the metagame?
Please make sure that there is a lot of discussion. This discussion can get really good! You can also talk about it on #othermetas on IRC as well. Hopefully by the end of this discussion, we can get a general consensus on how well these Pokemon perform and how they perform.
Alright, time for the fun part of this! This will last for the duration of the Research Week specified above (April 19 - May 3).
Taken from TNT's OU Edition
The Research Week Challenge:
In order to participate in the challenge, simply post what Pokemon you're trying and your fresh new alt (yes, this is mandatory). Post battle logs, experiences with your team on the ladder, and generally how a Pokemon has worked out for you: past or present.- Users will use any number of the research week mons on their team
- Users will attempt to reach as high as possible on the ladder with the Pokemon. Surpassing a Glicko2 rating of 2000 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will grant you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Platinum Class. Breaking past a Glicko2 rating of 1950 with a deviation of 75 or lower on the ladder with your registered alt will earn you a spot on the Hall of Fame: Gold Class. Crossing a Glicko2 rating of 1900 with a deviation of 75 or lower will secure you a Silver Class spot while a Glicko2 rating of 1850 with a deviation of 75 or lower will earn you a Bronze Class spot. Post a screen-shot of your peak and an importable of your team in order to achieve this.
- Users will be expected to post their experiences with the Pokemon they use, the teams they used, the problems they encountered while trying to make the said Pokemon work.
- If a user does not participate in the discussion, he will be passed over.
It has been noticed that the last few Research Weeks have been basically reduced to ladder runs. This completely defeats the purpose of Research Week where the idea is NOT TO see if a person can get a high ladder rating with an underused Pokemon but to subjectively assess as a community, whether that particular Pokemon is viable in the tier and discover its potential in the tier. In order to remedy this, an archive is going to be created, highlighting great posts.
Participants (13)
Format will go like this: username - alt - ladder standing - Research Subject(s)
pkblizzard - Blitzspam - n/a - Mandibuzz
Mr Omgness - Trampoleon - n/a - Empoleon
jas61292 - Hot Pie - n/a - Mandibuzz, Piloswine
Blank_Zero - Blank_Tier_Shift_1 (2/3/4/etc) - n/a - All
Qwilphish - Sgt. Empoleo - ACRE : 1796 Glicko2: 1874±56 - Empoleon, Skarmory
TLC - SkarmBlissRW - n/a - Skarmory
sonicfan - sonicfan7895 - n/a - Mandibuzz
EspyOwner - Espeon - n/a - Piloswine
Unoriginal Name - PillowPeg&APenguin - n/a - Piloswine
Dogfish44 - ArthurConanDyle - n/a - Mandibuzz
Knights Of Cydonia - Kni - ACRE- 1831, Glicko 2- 1930 ± 70 - Mandibuzz
Yamus of Bethany - Indirion - n/a - Empoleon
Trinitrotoluene - some kind of blue - n/a[/B] - Empoleon
pkblizzard - Blitzspam - n/a - Mandibuzz
Mr Omgness - Trampoleon - n/a - Empoleon
jas61292 - Hot Pie - n/a - Mandibuzz, Piloswine
Blank_Zero - Blank_Tier_Shift_1 (2/3/4/etc) - n/a - All
Qwilphish - Sgt. Empoleo - ACRE : 1796 Glicko2: 1874±56 - Empoleon, Skarmory
TLC - SkarmBlissRW - n/a - Skarmory
sonicfan - sonicfan7895 - n/a - Mandibuzz
EspyOwner - Espeon - n/a - Piloswine
Unoriginal Name - PillowPeg&APenguin - n/a - Piloswine
Dogfish44 - ArthurConanDyle - n/a - Mandibuzz
Knights Of Cydonia - Kni - ACRE- 1831, Glicko 2- 1930 ± 70 - Mandibuzz
Yamus of Bethany - Indirion - n/a - Empoleon
Trinitrotoluene - some kind of blue - n/a[/B] - Empoleon
Hall of Fame (2)
Platinum Class: 2000+ Glicko2
(none yet)
Gold Class: 1950-1999 Glicko2
(none yet)
Silver Class: 1900-1949 Glicko2
"Overall, because of its mixed bulk and usability, Mandibuzz is definitely worth a trial on your team."
Username: Qwilphish
Alt: Sgt. Empoleo
Alt: Sgt. Empoleo
Post
Set:
[BOX]
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Whirlwind
[/BOX]
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Whirlwind
[/BOX]
Bronze Class: 1850- 1899 Glicko2
"Although it does not gain any boosts, Skarmory is still as amazing as ever, walling many physical attackers on both sand and sun teams."
"Overall, I feel Empoleon's special walling capabilities is what really make it shine. Being a Water type, it is an excellent check to Rain teams, something that Heatran cannot boast.."
"Overall, I feel Empoleon's special walling capabilities is what really make it shine. Being a Water type, it is an excellent check to Rain teams, something that Heatran cannot boast.."
Username: Knight of Cydonia
Alt: kni
Alt: kni
Post
Set:
[BOX]
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Substitute
-Agility
-Surf
-Grass Knot
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 228 Def / 252 HP / 28 Spd
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
[/BOX]
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roar
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Substitute
-Agility
-Surf
-Grass Knot
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 228 Def / 252 HP / 28 Spd
Impish Nature
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost
- Brave Bird
[/BOX]
Compendium of Great Posts (3)
MANDIBUZZ RESEARCH
For the “Great Walls of Tier Shift” Research Thread on Smogon.com
Mandibuzz, one of the only Dark/Flying-types other than its pre-evolution, has been nominated to be researched on by fellow Smogon members. I also, have taken on this role, and will gladly fill you in on how it’s been doing on my team.
For starters, let’s go with the set I’m using: it’s a slightly modified version of the standard set listed on Smogon, in that I’m not using Whirlwind, and instead, going for all-out sweeping. This is the set I’m using:
Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SDef
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Payback
- Roost
- Brave Bird
As you can see, I have eliminated Whirlwind, and replaced it with Payback, due to its slow speed, but bulky nature (424 HP and 270 Def), Payback should do well when facing off against strong opponents... in theory. Mandibuzz’s threats happen to be unmoved, even in TS. This set has had less success than the standard set on Smogon. It’s one true threat however, are Rock-types and Sandstorm; when Sandstorm comes out, you need to switch to a Pokemon that can cover Sandstorm well, such as a Water-type. Mandibuzz, while it has its strengths, shouldn’t be one of those walls, unless you find a truly good use for it in battle. Let’s compare it to the standard set on Smogon:
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Trait: Big Pecks
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird / Foul Play / Toxic
“Despite being a Flying-type and consequently weak to Stealth Rock, Mandibuzz can still wall a select few threats. Specially defensive Mandibuzz is in fact a counter to some of the most common special attackers in the tier: Slowking, Sceptile, Lilligant, and Accelgor. Taunt is a great move that prevents Slowking and Accelgor from setting up Nasty Plot and Spikes, respectively. It is also an answer to opposing stall teams, as Mandibuzz's base 80 Speed lets her outrun most walls in RU and prevent them from healing or spreading status. While the opponent is prohibited from healing, Mandibuzz can heal herself with Roost, which is especially helpful to mitigate Stealth Rock damage. In addition, Roost removes her Flying typing, allowing the vulture to take Rock-, Ice-, and Electric-type attacks more easily. Be careful, though, as this makes her more susceptible to Ground-, Bug-, and Fighting-type attacks. All in all, Taunt, Roost, and her two immunities—namely to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks—make Mandibuzz hard to take down.”
(Description courtesy of Smogon.com)
“Despite the emphasis on her Special Defense, Mandibuzz is also able to take on physical attackers due to her high base Defense. This is especially useful as Whirlwind can force out set-up Feraligatr, Crawdaunt, Scyther, and Drapion, as well as special sweepers such as Omastar and Sigilyph, but note that Mandibuzz will take a lot of damage in the process. Brave Bird or Foul Play are the preferred moves in the last slot, as Mandibuzz will otherwise become useless if Taunted. Brave Bird hits surprisingly hard even off Mandibuzz's base 65 Attack, OHKOing Sceptile and Lilligant after Stealth Rock damage. Brave Bird also lets Mandibuzz damage Pokemon that can heal or are immune to Toxic, such as Roselia, Clefable, Poliwrath, and Qwilfish. As Taunt will prevent these Pokemon from healing, Brave Bird will eventually wear them down, allowing Mandibuzz to beat them one-on-one. Foul Play is useful for hitting physical attackers, such as Kabutops, Druddigon, and Entei, harder than Brave Bird. Alternatively, Toxic can be used to cripple walls such as opposing Mandibuzz, Slowking, and Cryogonal.”
1. How useful is this Pokemon in Tier Shift? (5/10)
Even with this Pokemon’s good bulk, its mediocre attack powers and movepool cripple it half to death in Tier Shift (even in its own tier, when Pokemon are killing this in one hit).
2. What sets can they run effectively? (7/10)
The only set that Mandibuzz can even come close to running effectively, is the standard set listed on Smogon (the second set above). That’s about all I can say.
3. What problems does this Pokemon have? (2/10)
Mandibuzz has so many problems in Tier Shift, it’s not even funny; as said above, it’s truly weakest against Rock-types and Sandstorm.
4. What edge does this have over other Pokemon in the metagame? (6/10)
At least some of the Pokemon that I’ve been able to knock out were Bug-types and Grass-types, and even some Fighting-types.
5. What niche can this Pokemon fill in teams? (6/10)
The only niche that this Pokemon can fill in the team is the Brave Birder/Roost or Toxic/Roost niche, where you set Toxic and Roost the crap out of Mandibuzz until Toxic kills it off.
6. Is this worth the team slot on your team or is it outclassed? (10/10 Outclassed)
Compared to the other Dark-types I’ve had on this team, this is the worst Dark-type I’ve had on my team.
7. If this was to rise in usage, what would you expect to see from the metagame? (0/10)
If this was to rise in usage, I could immediately see it going back down; in UU and above, every type that’s strong against Mandibuzz will decimate it until it’s nothing but charred bones and egg shells.
User: sonicfan
tiershift
ACRE: 1423
GXE: 66
Glicko2: 1684 ± 185 (provisional)
W: 3
L: 2
T: 0
(Results from after 5 Battles with Mandibuzz, 2nd loss was Durant Sweep)
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Empoleon if I were you. Let's compare the typings of Empoleon and Heatran:Empoleon's Rock resist means it's not as easy to wear down with hazards, since one turn of Leftovers recovery will heal off the SR damage. The Water resist is really what makes Empoleon stand out. Resisting Water is always a good thing, and it lets Empoleon force out several other Water-types (unless they're fishing for a Scald burn, but you can do that too!). While Empoleon also has a weakness to Electric, most users of Thunder in Tier Shift aren't exactly afraid of Heatran either, since many carry a Fighting or Water move. Empoleon's lesser weakness to Ground lets it pull off crazy things like these:Code:|Empoleon |Heatran Normal |x.5 |x.5 Grass |x1 |x.25 [B]Water |x.5 |x2[/B] Fire |x1 |x0 (Flash Fire) Flying |x.5 |x.5 Electric |x2 |x1 Fighting |x2 |x2 [B]Rock |x.5 |x1[/B] Ground |x2 |x4 Ice |x.25 |x.25 Poison |lol |lol Psychic |x.5 |x.5 Bug |x.5 |x.25 Dark |x.5 |x.5 Dragon |x.5 |x.5 Steel |x.25 |x.25 Ghost |x.5 |x.5
(yes, I am aware I'm using several different spreads, I'm not trying to champion a single build here)
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tier Shift Empoleon: 294-348 (77.16 - 91.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tier Shift Empoleon: 254-300 (66.66 - 78.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tier Shift Empoleon: 315-374 (82.67 - 98.16%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now onto the other side of their typings. Water STAB is much better than Fire STAB for a Pokemon to have. Let's go more in-depth and assume that both Pokemon are using three non-damaging moves and Lava Plume / Scald. Both Lava Plume and Scald have a 30% burn chance. However, Fire Pokemon sent in to resist Lava Plume are completely immune to burns. Meanwhile, Water-types that resist Scald can still be burned.
In addition to Empoleon's typing benefits, it also has a wider support movepool. Heatran may have Torment and Will-O-Wisp, but Empoleon lays claim to Yawn, Knock Off, Icy Wind, and the less important Aqua Ring and Mist.
As far as offensive capabilities go, they really can't be compared, since Empoleon is often best with SubPetaya + Agility whereas Heatran is a better Choice user / bulky attacker.
Don't be so quick to abandon Empoleon for Heatran. The penguinlordpimp daddy has a lot going for it.
While I won't participate in this week (or other arbitrary length of time)'s Ladder Challenge due to university work, I will give a couple of thoughts on some of the given mons.
Piloswine serves a very similar role in TS as in NU; it makes a moderately powerful, very bulky tank with a very good offensive typing, priority and access to both phasing and SR, although not normally on the same moveset. Its most common set is
Piloswine @ Eviolite
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
-Ice Shard
-Stealth Rock/Roar
This set combines its decent attack stat (115 in Tier Shift) and its wonderful STABs to become a nice utility tank. Earthquake and the Ice move of choice is there for nearly unresisted STAB. Ice Shard helps make up for Pilo's poor speed stat and can help pick off weakened mons, especially most Chlorophyll sweepers (for example, 4/0 Sawsbuck and Victreebel both take ~50%). The choice of Stealth Rock or Roar depends on whether your team needs hazards or phasing more, with Roar providing Pilo with a temporary way around Shedinja.
The other set that Pilo can run effectively is a physically defensive set running EQ/SR/Ice Shard and your choice or Roar or Icicle Spear. This set is incredibly difficult to break in one shot, as shown by the following calculations:
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 171-202 (39.4 - 46.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 256-303 (58.98 - 69.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 291-346 (67.05 - 79.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piloswine: 290-344 (66.82 - 79.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While the first two may not be the most common of events, they do give an indication of just how physically bulky this Piloswine is.
However, not all is sunshine and buttercups for Pilo. Its offensive typing may be very good, but as a defensive type it leaves a lot to be desired. As said by The Unlucky one, weaknesses to both Water and Grass are very problematic in the highly weather dominated metagame that is Tier Shift, not to mention a weakness to the ever present Fighting moves. It also lacks in resistances, resisting only Ice (thanks to Thick Fat) and Poison, and being immune to solely Electric. Its lack of any from of recovery outside of another mon passing Wishes to it also greatly reduces its life expectancy.
Overall, Piloswine is a fairly underrated mon, being able to reliably set up SR for most teams and having access to nice utility moves in Roar and Ice Shard, in addition to being able to take hits from some of the most powerful attackers in TS. Use it with caution, however; it is severely hampered by hazards and status, since it lacks any form of recovery.
Skarmory is very rarely seen in TS, being overlooked often in favour of the lower tier mons that have been boosted. However, it still fulfills its roles of hazard-setting and walling on the physical side very effectively. Since most spinners in TS either lose too much momentum or are flawed in some way, and with things like Golurk running around spinblocking everything, hazards are particularly effective in this offensive metagame. Skarmory is fairly adept at getting up multiple layers of Spikes (or SR if that is your hazard of choice) since it has access to reliable recovery, in addition to being able to phase out anything that takes the opportunity to set up on it; these give it a niche over other common Spikes setters such as Ferrothorn. It also has Taunt, allowing it to prevent the opponent laying hazards as well. Between these, it can effectively run both a Custap suicide lead set with Taunt/SR/Spikes/(your choice of various moves) or a standard physically defensive set. Its typing is still unique in TS, allowing its defensive set to wall many significant threats, such as completely walling standard Sawsbuck. However, it can be taken down moderately quickly with powerful special attacks, especially sun-boosted Fire moves.
Both of these mons are very usable in the current Tier Shift meta, provided sufficient team support is provided for Piloswine. Neither is to be underestimated, and currently it is my opinion that both are underrated, despite their flaws.
Hopefully this was something along the lines of what you were wanting for this thread :)
A proper sign-up sheet should look something like this:
[BOX]Username: The Unlucky one
Alt: SuperwiiTest
Ladder Standing: N/A
Research Subject(s): Mandibuzz,Piloswine[/BOX]
Remember to update your original post with ladder progress and comment about your experiences! With that done, we look forward to see what you have to say!