Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Are you serious just arguing for the sake of it? Like seriously what the heck is this:
''Jirachi can successfully do maybe 3 roles, and one, in my opinion, is utter trash''. Just because YOU dont like the scarf set doenst make it utter trash when its in fact excellent at what it does. ''It will ALWAYS have iron head'', come on man wtf, have you ever seen sub calm rachi or super rachi using iron head? ''Jirachi is ridiculously one dimensional compared to many other pokes and besides using scarf vs using spdef there is ZERO suprise factor involved.'' You gotta be kidding me. Subcalm, offensive calm mind and mixed are all possibilities too. The surprise factor is huge there. Also i wasnt going to respond to the keldeo post since it wasnt mine but now i feel like it. Jellicent: Idk... toxic the switch? Toxicroak: SD maybe, but toxicroak sucks. Celebi: completely unthreatening, it could u-turn, but then it risks the keldeo player predicting this and continue to hpump. Yes thats what jellicent does, toxic/burn you on the switch. I dont know why you sound so surprised or underwhelmed since thats always how jellicent dealt with keldeo. Also give me a break with this ''toxicroak sucks'' crap. Have you ever used it at all? Its a pain to take down and setups in the face of many threats. Also ''celebi is completely unthreatening''? Do you realize both of celebi stabs hit keldeo for super effective damage? Who the hell would try to u-turn when they could just kill keldeo in 2 hits?
Oops forgot about subcm. But either way, if it is in rain and/or it sets up a sub, you know it is subcm and can deal with it accordingly (which can be difficult).

And yes, because offensive cm and MIXED and whatver else you can come up with are definitely viable

You can usually tell from team preview exactly what kind of rachi you are facing, it never really is much of a surprise

And you just plain didn't understand that last part, so I'll just leave it to rest
 
Just because something has an analysis doesn't mean it is good, especially in the current meta.

Sandslash => B rank (any of the sub B's)
This thing is a monster that is most definitely comparable to excadrill. After a swirds dance, sandslash can do things like 1hko deo-d (who doesn't matter anymore, but is still a testament to its power. Unlike wxcadrill though, it is slowww, so scarf keldeo+terrakion+latios outspeed it (though terrakion can't ko). However, slash doesn't have a fighting weakness and has nice defense, helping it take on breloom better. It has almost perfect coverage with stone edge, earthquake, and x-scizzor, dealing with the most prevalent walls (celebi+jirachi) and sweeping clean almost any team without a skarmory, landorus-t, or scarf keldeo once the opposing weather starter is eliminated. Due to its coverage, i find it more dangerous than venusaur. Once it's few counters are eliminated or weakened, sandslash is free to wreak havoc. With or without a boost, life orb eq hits extremely hard and is great backed by such incredible speed. And if stoutland can pull off b-rank, sandslash should definitely be given similar placement

Doesnt change the fact that you stated that I had came up with that when in fact it was on the analysis all along.
It's called figurative speaking bro. Not you in particular.
 
Doesnt change the fact that you stated that I had came up with that when in fact it was on the analysis all along. But anyway lets put it to rest. Gyarados should move up to A+Rank. It has been stated several times how great of a setup sweeper he is, his excellent coverage and key resistances that allow it to setup in the most common pokemon and the most dangerous pokemon in the meta (scizor and landorus-i respectively). Its only logical that it should be joining top tier threats in A+Rank.
 

Electrolyte

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Gyarados is a monster, yes, but it has a few tiny flaws that make it fall below A+ standard, which is why I would only support it up to A rank.

First off, it deserves a raise because of the reasons Smashbrosbrawl stated- its unique typing, stats, and ability give Gyarados all the tools it needs to be able to set up on nearly half the meta and sweep through pretty much the rest after a boost or two. Its SubDD set is really destructive, and is walled by a relatively view variety of Pokemon who must actually rely on resistances and not even just natural bulk to wall this monster.

However, that's where Gyarados falls short. It is an awesome and destructive sweeper, so it's definitely A-tier at least, but it does have a few small issues. Mainly, it requires significant support and has a few common hard counters as well as a weakness to Stealth Rock and low initial power / speed which makes it hard to set up and sweep early and mid game. Its biggest fall is in the fact that it really relies on Rain or at least the absence of other weather (which Rain can pretty much guarantee). Additionally, it needs the Rain boost to be able to muscle past some of its walls, such as Skarmory, before it can get crippled or forced out to be damaged by another round of Stealth Rock.

Speaking of walls, this is Gyarados's second major falling point. Sure, few Pokemon can reliably check Gyarados, but this number is not insignificant and many of those said walls and checks are actually pretty common. Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, three of the most common Steel-types, all wall Gyarados to the sun and back, Taunt or no Taunt, Sub or no Sub, Rain or no Rain. (unless Gyara has boosts) Skarmory can easily sponge Rain boosted Wterfalls and force Gyarados out, while Ferrothorn can Power Whip Gyarados's subs and then cripple it with Leech Seed or Thunder Wave. Forretress can Volt Switch Gyarados for a lot of damage, and switch to a revenge killer to remove even a boosted Gyara. Other Water resistant Pokemon, especially SubToxicroak, can defeat Gyarados, as it is forced to use Bounce to hit them and that gives them a free turn to set up. Bulky water types such as Vaporeon can easily sponge attacks and force Gyarados out. Gyarados isn't exactly the type of Pokemon that can just switch in and start setting up again- as its SR weakness and need of a high HP amount means that sweeps are often dependent on one or two attempts and then Gyara has to be sacked. Unfortunately, Gyarados's counters are extremely common, so its sweeps will often be cut short, and its weakness to SR does not help it overcome that problem at all.

Finally, it has low initial stats. This might not seem significant as Gyara is a Pokemon built for boosting, but to put things in perspective, even a +2 SubDD Gyarados can't outspeed Scarfed Musketeers- and adding extra speed just means less power pr less bulk. Its low speed and relatively not outstanding Attack stat mean that it absolutely needs its Subs early in its sweeps in order to be anle to stop common revenge killers such as Keldeo, Terrakion, or Latios, three extremely common revenge killers that can defeat even +2 Gyarados as long as there is not Sub up, which is not a tough prerequisite to guarantee in the beginning or even middle of the match.

It's destructive and a good to check to a lot of things, and basically just has those few flaws, so I still support Gyarados to A or A-rank, but not A+.
 
even a +2 SubDD Gyarados can't outspeed Scarfed Musketeers-
Wait, I thought a +2 Gyarados* outsped 108 Scarfers? I'll doublecheck when I'm at home, but other than that I agree with most of your post.

*Jolly nature with 168 Spe EV's is the site's spread for SubDD.

Edit: @Lavos Spawn: Alright then, fair enough.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
the on-site spread is terrible, when discussing gyarados i feel it's best to stick to the universally accepted "best" spread of adamant 56 hp / 252 atk / 200 spd (give or take a few evs in hp and speed). jolly is pitifully weak
 

Gary

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Gyarados is amazing in this metagame. Like holy shit, I hate it so much, but love it at the same time. Sub DD Gyarados has the annoying tendency to get around even Rotom-W at +1, since most Rotom-W's only carry Volt Switch as their Electric-type move, and Gyarados says fuck you by setting up another Substitute. Every time I run Rotom-W, I'm almost forced to run either Discharge or T-Bolt over Pain Split if I want to have any chance at not getting completely swept by Gyarados. Even though Gyarados isn't the most amazing team player until it sets up, it's such a huge threat behind a Substitute and with a few boosts that I think it's fair to say that Gyarados would fit just fine in A Rank. However, SR hurts its switch-in opportunities, forcing you to run a spinner if you want to use Gyarados to force switches in order to setup the following turn. At +0, Gyarados hurts, but it's easily revenged killed. At +1, Gyarados still risks being revenged killed, forcing it to forgo valuable coverage for Substitute.

Still, I feel like Gyarados shares similar issues with an A rank Pokemon, Volcarona, and even then Volcarona arguably has more flaws then Gyarados. An added bonus, is that they can abuse their power in their appropriate weathers, making them even more dangerous. Setup sweepers are just so deadly in this metagame, and Gyarados is no exception. If you don't carry an Electric-type move on your team, you're getting swept, plain and simple.

Gyarados for A Rank.
 

alexwolf

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the on-site spread is terrible, when discussing gyarados i feel it's best to stick to the universally accepted "best" spread of adamant 56 hp / 252 atk / 200 spd (give or take a few evs in hp and speed). jolly is pitifully weak
The best spread is definitely the one on-site. 88 HP EVs allow Gyarados's Sub to not be broken by burned Ferrothorn's Power Whip (not that hard to burn it, given that it is a common switch in to bulky water types), by Jirachi's Body Slam (for Moxie variants, otherwise Intimidate makes sure that Jirachi won't break your Sub anyway), by Jellicent's Shadow Ball most of the time (21.52 - 25.49%), and by SpD Celebi's Giga Drain ~50% of the time (23.22 - 27.47%). Also, Gyrados doesn't need the Adamant nature as there isn't any Pokemon that Gyarados misses the OHKO-2HKO on at +1 in rain and after SR, meaning the the Jolly nature is very appreciated to outspeed Jolteon at +1, as well as positive natured base 70s, such as Custap Berry Skarmory (useful if you have Taunt), Jolly Breloom, and some other threats such as Adamant Dragonite (getting to scout its set with Sub for example).

As for where Gyarados should be ranked, i think that either A or A- are fine. Gyarados is one of the best sweepers around but needs Rapid Spin and Drizzle support, which although are not that much, prevent it from being on equal levels of independent functionallity with the Pokemon that reside in S and A+ rank. Some may think that rain and spin support are too much of support for A rank, but the fact that Politoed is very easy to fit on teams and that rain teams can use two excellent spinners means that a player won't need to go out of its way to fit Gyarados on its team. Also all out offensive Gyarados with LO doesn't even need rain to function correctly and is an excellent Pokemon to soften up teams with as well as a check to physical attackers with Intimidate. For this reason (Gyarados's ability to function well even outside of rain) i think that Gyarados should be in A rank.
 
Um, Jolteon is already on the list; right in the middle of C Rank, where I think it should stay, personally. Jolteon is incredibly fast, but it's somewhat lacking in raw power and tends to be outclassed by Thundurus-T in most roles it tries to fill. I suppose it could move up to somewhere in B Rank, but anywhere in A Rank is far too high.
 
I've never made a team that Jolteon was a threat to, and Jolteon is one of the last things I prepare for. i think c-rank is fine for it, besides the extra speed and lack of stealth rock weakness, there isn't much reason to use it over thundurus-t who has a bit better bulk, more moves, hits harder and can go mixed
 
in this thread, we see vemane, a user who enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing. "jirachi will ~ALWAYS~ have iron head" - yes indeed! and who knew many of the great tournament players' favorite set, scarf, was utter trash?!

on a more serious note, both superachi and mixrachi are fine sets (in any case they're not nearly as unviable as you're suggesting), and furthermore, sandslash is horrible.. i actually laughed at the part where you said that slash's lack of a fighting weakness helps it take on breloom better... this is a joke right?

edit;
Scarf Jirachi is only useful on teams that lack coverage or need something in particular to be revenge killed.
???
pls explain cause i don't get how you came to this conclusion. from my experiences, scarf jira can fit in on just about any team!
 

Gary

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in this thread, we see vemane, a user who enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing.

"jirachi will ~ALWAYS~ have iron head", yes indeed! and who knew many of the great tournament players' favorite set, scarf, was utter trash?!

sandslash is horrible, btw. i actually laughed at the part where you said that slash's lack of a fighting weakness helps it take on breloom better... this is a joke right?
Yes, yes indeed he does. Scarf Jirachi is only useful on teams that lack coverage or desperately needs something in particular to be revenge killed. 299 Attack is just so underwhelming in this metagame. People act like Scarf Rachi is the new (technically older) Genesect. Little do they know, it can't KO shit unless they've already been previously weakened or 4x weak to it. Besides, Iron Head is terrible to be locked into. Sure, it flinches stuff, but that's about it.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
i actually laughed at the part where you said that slash's lack of a fighting weakness helps it take on breloom better... this is a joke right?


hard counter imo

It's always been so underwhelming for me. It's just so weak, and I always wish that I had something that I could actually rely on to revenge kill anything that's somewhat bulky. It's coverage is nice, but the power is just so unappetizing. Maybe I just miss Genesect...
well when we all get used to scarfers like keldeo and terrakion, jirachi does seem pretty underwhelming
 

Gary

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in this thread, we see vemane, a user who enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing. "jirachi will ~ALWAYS~ have iron head" - yes indeed! and who knew many of the great tournament players' favorite set, scarf, was utter trash?!

on a more serious note, both superachi and mixrachi are fine sets (in any case they're not nearly as unviable as you're suggesting), and furthermore, sandslash is horrible.. i actually laughed at the part where you said that slash's lack of a fighting weakness helps it take on breloom better... this is a joke right?

edit;

???
pls explain cause i don't get how you came to this conclusion. from my experiences, scarf jira can fit in on just about any team!
It's always been so underwhelming for me. It's just so weak, and I always wish that I had something that I could actually rely on to revenge kill anything that's somewhat bulky. It's coverage is nice, but the power is just so unappetizing. It can fit on pretty much every team, but do I always feel like something can do the job better? Yes. Maybe I just miss Genesect...
 
if you're expecting jirachi to be like genesect there's no wonder you find it underwhelming lol

what exactly are you having problems revenging with jira? outside of like, yache garchomp, i can't think of anything genesect revenge killed that rachi can't. sure genesect was about a million times stronger but in terms of revenge killing jirachi gets the job done just as well. i usually run adamant on my scarfrachi but even when i used jolly i never really had issues with its (lack of) power...
 

Halcyon.

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It's always been so underwhelming for me. It's just so weak, and I always wish that I had something that I could actually rely on to revenge kill anything that's somewhat bulky. It's coverage is nice, but the power is just so unappetizing. It can fit on pretty much every team, but do I always feel like something can do the job better? Yes. Maybe I just miss Genesect...
Yeah I have to agree. The times I've used Scarf Jirachi, he's just been terribly weak. Non-STAB Base 75 moves coming off 299 attack is just pathetic. Scarf Jirachi is really only good for grabbing momentum, Iron Head flinching (which is pretty fucking unreliable), revenging Dragons (really only Dragonite, since Salamence speed ties Jirachi), and Scizor I suppose, if you carry Fire Punch. It's not a bad set, but I wouldn't say it's good enough for S rank at all.
 

Gary

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Halcyon pretty much hit the nail on the head. My biggest beef with Scarf Rachi is its access to only really weak covering moves in the form of elemental punches. If Jirachi had access to Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt (Yes I know it has this move already), then it would be much more tolerable IMO. It's still a great set, but just lacks a bit of power. I'd still use it, and I've currently been using it on one of my teams after Genesect was banned to Ubers. It still gets the job done.
 
Really, if you need something specific revenge killed, you should just use Alakazam....

Anyway, nominating Cloyster for B-. It really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Once it gets a Shell Smash, there are literally no safe switch-ins. It's Kings Rock set is great too, for those rare occasions that something actually survives the attack, it has an almost 50% chance to flinch. Nobody sane runs White Herb, its just a waste of an item really. It'll still be dying to any special attack. Cloyster is definitely a LOT better than most of the C Rankers.
 

Reymedy

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Yeah I have to agree. The times I've used Scarf Jirachi, he's just been terribly weak. Non-STAB Base 75 moves coming off 299 attack is just pathetic. Scarf Jirachi is really only good for grabbing momentum, Iron Head flinching (which is pretty fucking unreliable), revenging Dragons (really only Dragonite, since Salamence speed ties Jirachi), and Scizor I suppose, if you carry Fire Punch. It's not a bad set, but I wouldn't say it's good enough for S rank at all.
No offense, but you probably use it really poorly. Outside of U-Turn, it has SR, Healing Wish and Trick. Basically, Jirach is the best utility Scarf in the entire game. Not a lot of Scarf can have a decent speed, an awesome typing (you know a lot of Scarfers able to switch in at least once on any Latios out there ?), a switch attack and all those utility moves.

But okay, if you go with U-Turn/IcePunch/FirePunch/IronHead, then in my opinion, you are probably doing something not good.
 
Anyway, nominating Cloyster for B-. It really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Once it gets a Shell Smash, there are literally no safe switch-ins. It's Kings Rock set is great too, for those rare occasions that something actually survives the attack, it has an almost 50% chance to flinch. Nobody sane runs White Herb, its just a waste of an item really. It'll still be dying to any special attack. Cloyster is definitely a LOT better than most of the C Rankers.
Yeah, I can see Cloyster in B-. I think Cloyster gets a bad rep because people are so used to seeing noobs on the ladder send out their Focus Sash'd Cloysters who Shell Smash on the first turn. With the proper support, he's actually pretty decent. However, I personally believe that White Herb is probably still his best item. His special defense may be garbage, but his physical defense is godly (base 180, get some). With a White Herb, he will always survive Life Orb Breloom's Mach Punch assuming he didn't switch in on Stealth Rock (252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Cloyster: 70.95% - 83.4% (2 hits to KO)), and even after Stealth Rock he still has somewhat of a chance to survive (252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Cloyster: 70.95% - 83.4% (62.5% chance to OHKO)).
 
The problem with Cloyster is that it can't set up on special attackers, at all. Even things like Surf will do massive damage to it. Stealth Rock is also a big pain for it. And imo Life Orb is the best item for Cloyster.

I'm nominating Heracross for low B rank. His Scarf set can actually sweep teams if Hera kills something, and he also has two 120 power STAB moves. Terrakion gives it stiff competition for a teamslot, of course, but I still think Hera is good.
 
Really, if you need something specific revenge killed, you should just use Alakazam....

Anyway, nominating Cloyster for B-. It really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Once it gets a Shell Smash, there are literally no safe switch-ins. It's Kings Rock set is great too, for those rare occasions that something actually survives the attack, it has an almost 50% chance to flinch. Nobody sane runs White Herb, its just a waste of an item really. It'll still be dying to any special attack. Cloyster is definitely a LOT better than most of the C Rankers.
Alakazam cant tank a hit nor can it beats its checks through flinch hax. I agree that cloyster should be at least B- Rank. Its hard to setup but once it does there little stopping it from sweeping, since its best counters have low usage (cresselia, metagross, empoleon etc).
 
But Alakazam has Magic Guard and a great base special attack right off the bat. And physically defensive skarmory is the ultimate stop to Cloyster, unless it has Hydro Pump(I can't remember the last time I saw a Hydro Pump variant of Cloyster, Razor Shell variants are much more common).
 
But Alakazam has Magic Guard and a great base special attack right off the bat. And physically defensive skarmory is the ultimate stop to Cloyster, unless it has Hydro Pump(I can't remember the last time I saw a Hydro Pump variant of Cloyster, Razor Shell variants are much more common).
+2 252 Atk Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 195-230 (59.63 - 70.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Actually, alakazam can take ANY hit (bar multi-hit moves)

Dunno what you are talking about
Yes it can tank any hit... once. Jirachi can tank several hits through the match. Thats the huge difference.
 
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