Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[En Passant]

Levitate Chandelure - Hm... Not sure what to say about it. It still has four other rather common weaknesses to deal with, and one of those is Rock (which means SR and the other part of EdgeQuake). MegaSaur having Thick Fat doesn't help matters, either.

Roost non-Mega Heracross - Regular Heracross is an offensive Pokemon. Roost is useless on Choice sets and pressed for a moveslot on other ones, and it gets rekt by Bird teams regardless of healing.

Poison Heal Snorlax - An idea I've thought of myself, actually. It does seem really monstrous, and we should get some calcs to see what can still get past it (I don't have time right now to do it).

Drizzle Bronzong - Intriguing, definitely. It's essentially Heatproof and more, and gives Rain a needed setter. However, MegaYard still doesn't give a shit about it, and Bronzong's big issues this Gen are its two new weaknesses and an even higher power creep.

So, in conclusion, going to vote for Poison Heal Snorlax.

 

[Valmanway]

Can we move on now?

Poison Heal Snorlax

lol Thank you.

 

[Slens]

Levitate Chandelure- It would still have trouble with Excadrill or Haxorus and already has two pretty good abilities in Flash Fire and Infiltrator. Just use Air Balloon.

Roost non-Mega Heracross- IMO it doesn't have the combo of bulk/speed/typing to use Roost effectively. Cross usually just wants to be attacking anyways. It also has to sacrifice a coverage move, one of its STABs or Swords Dance to fit it in.

Drizzle Bronzong- It loses its Ground immunity and although setting up Rain is nice, Bronzong itself can't really do much with it besides take neutral Fire attacks.

Poison Heal Snorlax- Yeah it loses Thick Fat but it would gain so much from PH than the other three options above IMHO. Once Toxic Orb activates it doesn't care about losing its item from Knock Off. Trick users will have to think twice. Doesn't fear status. What I like about it too is that it helps both defensively with reliable recovery AND offensively with Facade. Poison Heal Snorlax all the way.

 

[Isa Simple]

I think that the reason drizzle Bronzong ain't cutting it is because it is more of a buff to rain than to Bronzong and only in the sense that you can now run Politoad and Bronzong together to make your rain more sustainable. However I still think that rain does need a buff, but in the form of a drizzle user that can attempt a tango with Megazard-T and T-Tar. I hope that more theorymons with drizzle make the slates in the future to bring rain back into the meta.

 

[fleurdyleurse]

Poison Heal Snorlax
Arguably the only worthy choice for reasons Dry Paratoopa has stated.

 

[EJ190]

Poison Heal Snorlax
Always wanted a normal type this ability and Snorlax is awesome. Win-win

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Levitate Chandelure

 

[Reiga]

Snorlax would be amazing with Poison Heal, Pokemon Silver Dex entry: Its stomach's digestive juices can dissolve any kind of poison. It can even eat things off the ground. The abillity is perfect for him.

 

[Ask Aggron]

I always wanted Levitate Chandelure but Dry Paratrooper convinced me not to so I'll vote for Poison Heal Snorlax.

 

[NeonNinja96]

Poison Heal Snorlax

 

[alexwolf]

Voting is closed, here are the results:

Levitate Chandelure: 4
Heracross with Roost: 1
Poison Heal Snorlax: 41
Drizzle Bronzong: 6

So, our winner is:

+ Poison Heal

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Once this gets on the Theorymon ladder, this is the set a lot of people will run. Say hello to Curselax Reborn, as I like to put it.

Snorlax @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Curse
- Earthquake/Protect
- Crunch/Fire Punch

Facade is STAB that is powerful when combined with the Toxic Orb, Curse is to boost up your stats, EQ provides coverage (Though you can go for something else that fits you more), and Crunch beats a lot of Ghosts that would switch into Snorlax. The best counter to this would probably be Sableye and Spiritomb, but even then, you can pair it up with a Fairy or something. (Though all of the usuable (Some good, some mediocre) fairies are Specially bulky as well................., except probably Klefki) Fire Punch also helps against mons like Skarm and such. Protect works just like on Gliscor, giving you a free recovery turn.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Snorlax with Poison Heal is a really interesting idea! Snorlax has always had the potential to wall many special threats but has lacked the recovery to take repeated hits, and was vulnerable to status. Poison Heal fixes his two biggest worries, and in the process gives Snorlax a wonderful 210 BP Facade to work with, allowing it to hit very hard for a defensive Pokemon.

My favorite thing about Poison Heal has to be the potential return of an old favorite... CurseLax. This blast from the past hasn't been very viable in a while, but with excellent passive recovery and status immunity, Snorlax would have a legitimate shot of pulling off his old Curse set. Facade for obvious STAB, Earthquake to deal with Aegis/Mawile/etc, and Fire Punch would probably be the best move in the final slot to hit Skarm (and Air Balloon Aegis/Exca). A neutral Facade hits things like the Latis harder than a SE Crunch and Gengar can't touch you anyway, so there'd be little need for it.

EDIT: Ninja'd by 1 second?

 

[amzaneok]

Snorlax @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
-Curse
-Facade
-Crunch
-Protect / Earthquake

Pretty obvious what's going on here. Use Snorlax's ridiculous HP and Special Defense and rack up Curse boosts. Facade hits like a truck after a boost or two. Crunch is used to hit Ghost-types and Steel-types who would otherwise resist Facade. In the last slot, Protect can be used to not only rack up additional healing at basically no cost (while also laughing at ill-timed High Jump Kicks that are thrown at Snorlax). It also lets it completely laugh at moves like Seismic Toss. Earthquake can be used to hit some notable threats lime Tyranitar and Terrakion for super effective coverage, although the former is set up on, anyways.

Snorlax only has ridiculously high powered Fighting-type moves to fear, such as Terrakion's Close Combat and Medicham's High Jump Kick. However, only Terrakion and Cobalion can handle a Facade from this beast comfortably.

This set's weaknesses are very few. Taunt prevents it from using Protect to heal or Curse to boost it's stats, and Whirlwind can negate any boosts Snorlax has gained, although it will simply delay the inevitable. Snorlax is also vulnerable to Trick and Switcheroo, but not much enjoys taking a Toxic Orb in exchange, but sometimes it's the lesser of two evils. Trick Gengar is notable for being immune to Toxic status and Facade but it has to be very weary of a well-timed Crunch. Terrakion and Cobalion are also notable threats with high powered Close Combats or Sacred Sword, which ignores the defensive boosts of Curse. Both need to be weary of Earthquake, though, which will completely smash them.

This thing is a monster.

Edit: Snorlax, not Snowman... Stupid autocorrect.

 

[Punchshroom]

Damn, that's a huge majority.

So Snorlax finally has some reliable recovery and status immunity, which pretty much screams CURSE SET, and Snorlax would pull it off pretty effectively too. Curse, Protect, Facade, and Fire Punch would likely be the set of choice. It can also serve as a Knock Off sponge if it comes down to that (not as well as Gliscor though). Losing Thick Fat hurts its ability to take on Charizard, but when it manhandles most special attackers in the tier (especially Rotom-W) and smacks most physical attackers with a powerful Facade, the tradeoff is well worth it.

Did I mention this thing learns Pursuit too? Yeah, let's add that to the list of Pursuit users we already have to pair with that infamous core that likes Pursuit support a lot (hint: it has a genie and a pony).

 

[Red Cat]

Damn, that's a huge majority.

So Snorlax finally has some reliable recovery and status immunity, which pretty much screams CURSE SET, and Snorlax would pull it off pretty effectively too. Curse, Protect, Facade, and Fire Punch would likely be the set of choice.

Snorlax won with approximately 78.8% of the vote. Ironically, this set is walled by Flash-Fire Gourgeist.

Edit: And Flash-Fire Chandelure too. Good thing we didn't give it Levitate.

 

[Seiterman]

Oh man, Poison Heal Snorlax.

Obviously Curselax is the first thing people think of, and it's wholly understandable why. Extra passive recovery, a lessened dependence on the Toxic Orb once it's activated, the ability to absorb status and 140 BP Facade are all pretty great. However, it has a few notable weaknesses. First is the lack of power on most of its moves. Without a boosting item, Curselax is hard-pressed to actually hurt things without boosts, and it still has a bit of a hard time setting up without taking a hit. Next up is a bit of a case of 4MSS. Aside from Curse, you'd want some combination of Facade, EQ, Fire Punch, Crunch and Protect (to guarantee Toxic.) Honestly, Protect is the easiest thing to pass up, as it's not hard to get the Orb to activate anyway, and you need all of the coverage you can get. Still, the choice between Fire Punch and Crunch is vital, as missing one of them will leave you walled by something. For example, Scizor and Ferrothorn both wall Curselax to hell and back without Fire Punch, and Gengar isn't guaranteed to go down in 1 hit without Crunch, giving it time to 2HKO you with Focus Blast. I know there are others, but I don't have time to get into too much detail.

You could likely run some more niche, borderline gimmicky stuff with Poison Heal too. a RestTalking set with Facade and Whirlwind could be worth something. Hell, you could even make a Toxic-stalling Snorlax set.

The only issue with Poison Heal is that it isn't worth nearly as much on all-out offensive sets like CBLax. You can't activate it reliably/at all, and the switch-in opportunities from Thick Fat outclass it on that kind of set. I don't know if CBLax would even be viable enough to make it an issue, but it's something to think about.

 

[Shadow2684]

I love it. Poison Heal Curse Snorlax sounds amazing along with Facade getting ridiculous after a curse and toxic orb becomes active and it can run Fire punch/Earthquake for coverage, I can definitely say I am in love with this idea

Snorlax @ Toxic Orb
252 HP/ 176 Sp. def/ 80 def
Relaxed
~Facade
~Curse
~Earthquake
~Fire Punch/ Crunch/Protect


With this spread, Snorlax hits at 524 Hp, 256 Atk, 170 Def and 300 Sp. Def and after a curse, Snorlax hits a tremendous 384 Atk and 255 Def. After another curse he hits 512 atk and 340 Def, Coupled with a 210 BP facade and Earthquake/Fire punch, this thing will hit like a truck while still having reliable recovery, I would just switch this in versus a pokemon like Sylveon, Chansey, Clefable or Heatran and set up a curse while they try to attack you while you laughably recover with poison heal and go for more curse boosts. I can't get calcs right now but as soon as I get home I will.

 

[amzaneok]

Next up is a bit of a case of 4MSS. Aside from Curse, you'd want some combination of Facade, EQ, Fire Punch, Crunch and Protect (to guarantee Toxic.) Honestly, Protect is the easiest thing to pass up, as it's not hard to get the Orb to activate anyway, and you need all of the coverage you can get. Still, the choice between Fire Punch and Crunch is vital, as missing one of them will leave you walled by something. For example, Scizor and Ferrothorn both wall Curselax to hell and back without Fire Punch, and Gengar isn't guaranteed to go down in 1 hit without Crunch, giving it time to 2HKO you with Focus Blast. I know there are others, but I don't have time to get into too much detail.

Crunch is almost always better. Snorlax sets up all over Scizor sets that don't run Swords Dance. Ferrothorn is the main threat, as Leech Seed really slows Snorlax's roll. However, both of these are relatively easy to take out with a team mate.

Edit: Looking for counters, I've noticed that Substitute / Disable / Leech Seed Gourgeist-S can comfortably take on most variants of Poison Heal Snorlax. Unless Snorlax is investing in Attack (which it probably won't be, very often), +1 Crunch fails to 3HKO with Leech Seed healing it. It can then slowly wear it down with Seed Bomb while healing immensely due to Snorlax's massive HP stat. Leech Seed, over all, actually makes Snorlax much easier to wear down. Ferrothorn and Swords Dance/Roost (Mega) Scizor, as mentioned, are good answers to variants lacking Fire Punch. Worry Seed, Gastro Acid, and Skill Swap are a huge pain for Snorlax's sweep, but are extremely uncommon. Actually, the one of the best tailored counters I can find is the obscure Gastro Acid Cradily, who is kind of useless otherwise, unfortunately...

 

[Sunodasuto]

Snorlax could be a nice utility pokemon for soaking up Knock-offs and status moves with 252 hp and 252 def.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 208-246 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- 88.6% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal

 

[Seiterman]

Crunch is almost always better. Snorlax sets up all over Scizor sets that don't run Swords Dance. Ferrothorn is the main threat, as Leech Seed really slows Snorlax's roll. However, both of these are relatively easy to take out with a team mate.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 612-720 (116.7 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 408-482 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Between CB Superpower and SD Scizor sets, I'd rarely want to try setting up on Scizor, especially if it can just U-Turn to a more appropriate answer anyway.

Of course, like you said, teammates can take care of those mons, and Crunch is probably better in most situations, but that doesn't mean the coverage issue is ignorable. Requiring team support to function, even if generally easy, is still a negative attribute, and something to keep in mind.

I'd also add that Fire Punch takes out Skarmory after a few boosts (though you still need way too many to make it a reliable option against the bird, especially if it's carrying Whirlwind/Taunt.)

 

[En Passant]

I think the Snorlax discussion should be more focused on finding counters, as we've had five people suggest CurseLax already (we get it, okay?) and people are worrying about Snorlax being OP.

 

[Red Cat]

Looking for counters, I've noticed that Substitute / Disable / Leech Seed Gourgeist-S can comfortably take on most variants of Poison Heal Snorlax. Unless Snorlax is investing in Attack (which it probably won't be, very often), +1 Crunch fails to 3HKO with Leech Seed healing it. It can then slowly wear it down with Seed Bomb while healing immensely due to Snorlax's massive HP stat. Leech Seed, over all, actually makes Snorlax much easier to wear down.

If Snorlax has Protect, it can use that to prevent Curse from getting disabled. After a few Curses, Seed Bomb will be doing pitiful damage and Snorlax will be ready to kill with Crunch. While the Leech Seed is annoying for Snorlax, it won't mind using Gourgeist to set up a few more Curses.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 612-720 (116.7 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 408-482 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I think you should go max defense with Snorlax given how physically dominated OU is. It already has enough special bulk naturally that there is not much of a need to invest in special defense.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 272-320 (51.9 - 61%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

After another Curse combined with Superpower's drop, Snorlax can easily stall out CB Scizor. I think Mega Scizor with Swords Dance + Superpower is the only variant which can beat max defense Snorlax if it has already gotten a Curse.

 

[alexwolf]

People, stop talking about how theorymons fare against other theorymons, the purpose of this thread is to talk about how theorymons fare against the existing Pokemon in OU.

 

[Valmanway]

Snorlax is an extremely dangerous Pokemon now, with Poison Heal not only making setting up Curse a breeze, but also letting him take on many past checks/counters with significant ease. These calcs are factoring in Shadow2684's EV spread, as well as Facade getting its boost (also, Relaxed nature and 80 Defense EVs make 203 Defense, not 170):


+2 0 Atk Snorlax's Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: (50.00% - 58.81%) 69.23% chance to 2HKO

+2 0 Atk Snorlax's Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: (74.01% - 87.17%) Guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 Atk Snorlax's Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: (55.26% - 65.13%) Guaranteed 2HKO

+2 0 Atk Snorlax's Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: (53.77% - 63.21%) Guaranteed 2HKO

But the only Pokemon that isn't OHKO'ed by anything from Snorlax, even at +6, and can actually do something back is Skarmory:

+6 0 Atk Snorlax's Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: (79.64% - 94.01%) 41.03% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock damage

As unlikely as this is, I like to factor in the best/worst case scenarios. Anyways, after taking a hit, Skarmory can Whirlwind Snorlax out and remove his Curse boosts. Just bare in mind that if Snorlax runs 112 Attack EVs, he guarantees an OHKO with +6 and Stealth Rock damage, and Adamant nature with 148 Attack EVs OHKOs no matter what at +6, though this is splitting hairs at this point.

What makes most of these calcs so important is that Snorlax can't be worn down by Toxic like he could be in the past, giving him more opportunities to set up Curse. But let's not go thinking he's some immovable wall. While his defenses are rather intimidating, they can be cracked if you make your move in time before he sets up too many Curses:

252+ Atk Mega Heracross' Close Combat vs. 252 HP / +2 76+ Def Snorlax: (62.2 - 73.6%) guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion's Close Combat vs. 252 HP / +2 76+ Def Snorlax: (64.5 - 76.72%) guaranteed 2HKO

Out of all the Pokemon in the game, the one that comes closest to an OHKO on a +2 Snorlax without getting to +1 or higher is Mega Medicham.

252+ Atk Mega Medicham's High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / +2 76+ Def Snorlax: (86.26 - 101.91%) 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock damage

And the best overall check/counter is Aegislash, who can set up Swords Dance as it takes a hit, then OHKO Snorlax with Sacred Sword, which ignores all defense buffs.

+2 0 Atk Snorlax's Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: (67.9 - 80.25%) guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade's Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Snorlax: (106.1 - 125.1%) guaranteed OHKO

Is Snorlax unstoppable? No, but he will be if you don't take him out asap.

*Edit

Bear in mind that all of these calculations are considering the EV spread of 252 HP / 80+ Def / 176 SDef. Any and all damage calculations, as well as checks and counters, are subject to change.