Teacher sacked over 'pupil prayer'

[X-Act]

Maths teacher Olive Jones was let go from her job teaching children who were too ill to go to school after visiting the home of a pupil for a lesson and discussing her faith with the girl's mother.

The girl was too poorly for the lesson so instead Mrs Jones, 54, spoke about her belief in miracles and asked whether she could say a prayer, but says when the mother said they were not believers she did not go ahead.
A complaint was then made by the mother that Mrs Jones' comments had distressed her and her child.

As a supply teacher who did not have a formal contract, Mrs Jones was told her services were no longer required just hours after the visit on November 25.

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=151444060

This is ridiculous. So I can't discuss what I believe in with anyone without being dismissed now? She also had the courtesy to refrain from praying when she found out that the family were non-believers. And she receives a dismissal from her job in return. :|

 

[MrIndigo]

Not in that kind of situation. You're in a teacher's role, you have teacher's responsibilities and that includes keeping your faith to yourself. Particularly on a one-to-one basis with a child.

 

[X-Act]

Not in that kind of situation. You're in a teacher's role, you have teacher's responsibilities and that includes keeping your faith to yourself. Particularly on a one-to-one basis with a child.

And that warrants a dismissal? As a teacher myself, I've seen some of my workmates not submit an exam paper in time to be verified before being given to the students, something that is far worse than sharing your faith with others; and yet they weren't dismissed. So tell me what grounds for dismissal would her superiors have?

 

[akuchi]

You know, at first I agreed it was too much, but on reflection I think yep, it wasn't an overly harsh or unfair punishment. She didn't just offer to say a prayer for the child, she told an ill child about her own personal belief in miracles - trying to offer what is pretty much certainly (by the nature of miracles!) false hope to a sick and vulnerable minor.

Not only this, she is friends with the nurse who was suspended for offering to pray for a patient (a somewhat different case) so she bloody well should have been aware of what she was doing.

Mostly it's the 'oh look, ill child, chance to spread the word of God' thing I dislike about this case.

 

[MrIndigo]

And that warrants a dismissal? As a teacher myself, I've seen some of my workmates not submit an exam paper in time to be verified before being given to the students, something that is far worse than sharing your faith with others; and yet they weren't dismissed. So tell me what grounds for dismissal would her superiors have?

Separation of religious issues from educational roles is EXTREMELY touchy in some places. And this was in a home setting, where someone has been explicitly permitted into someone's house. She really had no right to be talking about her religious beliefs to a child when she's not had permission from the parents to do it.

I'm surprised it was immediate dismissal (although it's probably entirely due to the fact they didn't have a written contract in the first place, a formally hired teacher would probably have been warned first and dismissed on a second occurrence), instead of a warning, but the fact that other, worse offenses haven't been given a dismissal does not necessarily mean that this isn't worthy of one.

 

[akuchi]

Nor do I agree that fucking up paperwork is worse than trying to manipulate a child into going to church with you.

 

[Altmer]

Who cares about paperwork.

 

[MrIndigo]

I do.

 

[Altmer]

I do but that is stupid to dismiss someone over.

I agree, proselytic religion is terrible.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think being dismissed for this is over the top. But it would be awkward as hell..

Though, who are these people who are so anti religion they cant let a person say a prayer?

I think a "look this is inappropriate dont do it again" would be plenty..

Have a nice day.

 

[MrIndigo]

I think being dismissed for this is over the top. But it would be awkward as hell..

Though, who are these people who are so anti religion they cant let a person say a prayer?

I think a "look this is inappropriate dont do it again" would be plenty..

Have a nice day.

The parents probably didn't request dismissal, they probably just said "We don't think this is appropriate for a teacher of this nature.

Then because they had no formal contract, the "employer" just pushed her off.

Ultimately, the lesson is: Always have a contract.

 

[Radio Reevesy]

Yes, I don't think the punishment fits the crime, but I agree that the teacher should have known not to discuss issues as delicate as beliefs.

And, although I'm religious myself, I can understand how the parents might not want their child prayed for. It could be interpreted as a bit creepy, to have someone thinking about your child in their free time. Even if it was with good intentions, I might want them to mind their own business.

I think the whole situation just goes to show how much people can react when religion is shoved down their throat.

 

[cantab]

I'm in two minds. On the one hand, it seems excessive to dismiss the teacher. But on the other - she's teaching a child who's chronically ill. The family will have struggled with that illness for years. To bring up religion, to say "I believe that if we pray God will cure it", seems a bit insensitive.

 

[Obsessed]

Though, who are these people who are so anti religion they cant let a person give false hope to their ill child?

Fixed.

 

[tape]

At first I thought this was over-the-top but then I realized, hey, this isn't really your job at all.

The reason why she got dismissed, as other people have said here, was because she didn't have a contract.

If you ask me, I would be really annoyed if my psychiatrist started throwing theobabble at me on every damn session. My school's psychologist, on the other hand, is more of a theologist than a goddamned (no pun intended) psychologist; pretty annoying.

This women wasn't hired for this, she should've known her place.

 

[CaptKirby]

Christianity is an abject clusterfuck of manipulative stories, but come the fuck on, affecting someone's livelihood for trying to spread a little hope to a poor little girl? Even if was (which I find overly cynical) an utterly shameless proselytizing, it is just fucking sharing a view. Sure teachers have an influence that perhaps normal people do not, but it was rejected on the spot and that was that!

 

[cim]

And that warrants a dismissal? As a teacher myself, I've seen some of my workmates not submit an exam paper in time to be verified before being given to the students, something that is far worse than sharing your faith with others; and yet they weren't dismissed. So tell me what grounds for dismissal would her superiors have?

Uh, the whole, teaching students religion thing?

These are people that students are supposed to be able to hang on their every word. They are supposed to teach students. You simply do not introduce religion into this, as where do you draw the line between "talking about your beliefs" and "teaching your beliefs"?

This is especially important in primary schools, but should apply in all public schooling.

It's a bad situation and I'm sure she meant no ill will, but zero tolerance is really the best approach here.

 

[Firestorm]

I think being dismissed for this is over the top. But it would be awkward as hell..

Though, who are these people who are so anti religion they cant let a person say a prayer?

I think a "look this is inappropriate dont do it again" would be plenty..

Have a nice day.

The "these people" would be the employers and they aren't so much as "anti-religious" as they are paranoid in this overly politically correct world.

I really did enjoy the fun they poked at how the holidays are turning into on the comedy shows this year. The Daily Show, 30 Rock, The Office, Community... just about everything I watch seems to have caught onto how ridiculous it is.

 

[possession999]

I think the punishment is way too harsh... She was just sharing her belief in miracles and when she found out they were not religious she did not go ahead and pray. I think it would be different if she were talking about this at school but this was at home where the child's parents were and could intercede at anytime.

 

[Synre]

I usually make a point not to post in topics like this, but this dismissal makes me angry.

I mean, yes, I get it, she should have and probably did know better, there have been enough similar cases in the past that she had fair warning and she has to have known she was overstepping her bounds, but dismissal seems more than a little ridiculous to me.

I know when I'm a student in a normal situation it, if nothing else, is a great turn-off to me if I find out the instructor is religious enough that s/he feels the need to inform me of such in class, but this is far from a normal situation(and I'm pretty sure I've never seen an instructor dismissed or even reprimanded for going that far, or perhaps for mentioning that they'd keep a sick or dying relative in their prayers, which is both completely acceptable and pretty much the same situation...). I don't view this as her trying to make bedside converts as several of my fellow religiousless users seem to, it seems very unlikely to me she saw this sick child in bed and got this dark gleam in her eye and thought "Yes! These souls are as good as mine..." I'm sure she was simply lifed by compassion seeing the sick child and wanted to do something she believed would help in praying, however ridiculous that might seem to us non-believers. She doesn't seem to have been overly aggressive about it; I don't think there was anything wrong with what she did and losing her job over it is ridiculous at best.

 

[cantab]

zero tolerance is really the best approach here.

Zero tolerance is never the best approach. http://www.thisistrue.com/zt.html

 

[CaptKirby]

These are people that students are supposed to be able to hang on their every word. They are supposed to teach students. You simply do not introduce religion into this, as where do you draw the line between "talking about your beliefs" and "teaching your beliefs"?

Most teachers plainly do not care about their jobs; what we need to do is stop treating children like perfect vessels into which we can import perfect dreams and wishes, when we should really be much more honest, for instance "Hey, a lot of your teachers do not really care about you, so while you should pay attention and try to learn as much as possible, do not take everything they say as truth and be willing to challenge what they say with your own intelligence."

Even that is kind of irrelevant though, you are just buying into the ridiculously tepid society that fearmongering zealots hope to propagate by overreacting to any and everything with your little "zero tolerance!!!!! hear hear!" spiel. Tepid society because both want other kids to definitely not follow the views of their opponents more than actually learning and thinking for themselves or being told useful opinions. Obviously school is not a place for a teacher to sit around prattling about religion nonstop nor to pressure a child (and I know it would be problematic to exactly mesh this out, but whatever), but that seems to be the opposite of what happened here - a teacher tried to offer some hope, no matter how frail and stupid, to an unfortunate child, it was rejected, the teacher accepted that and did not pressure anything.

 

[Eraddd]

And that warrants a dismissal? As a teacher myself, I've seen some of my workmates not submit an exam paper in time to be verified before being given to the students, something that is far worse than sharing your faith with others; and yet they weren't dismissed. So tell me what grounds for dismissal would her superiors have?

Separation of the Church and state. Even I as a Christian and a future Missionary believe that. I mean, hell, going to a KID who's not going to know what's right or wrong and preaching your beliefs? That's messed. In a professional workplace, you keep your beliefs out. Period.

And chronically ill kid, preaching beliefs? Slap to the face right there. I understand the teacher's viewpoint in what she did. But seriously? Common sense. It's obvious the mother, who's not religious, isn't going to take this matter lightly (although I doubt she wanted the teacher fired)

 

[Glen]

i definitely think this dismissal was unnecessary. i am all about seperation of church and state but when a teacher is one on one with a very sick student and, for some reason, they are under the impression that miracles are possible, they should be able to spread their 'good will' without being fired. it's a stupid thing to do but being dismissed is too much.

 

[Lockeness]

I understand that certain times and places sharing your faith is perhaps not as appropriate as others. However dissmissing a teacher for talking to a student about her faith and then praying for her is not a reason to dismiss a teacher. Especially if the teacher did this on her own time. If it is in someones home that is between the teacher and the mother not between the school admin. and the teacher.