Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[TCTphantom]

i wholeheartedly agree with this. dropping a whole bunch of banned mons at once absolutely ruined crown tundra and was basically the final nail in the coffin for gen 8 because by the time we cleaned it up no one was interested anymore. doing the same thing this time would be a repeat of a terrible mistake and a massive disservice to all of the people who worked hard for their suspect reqs. each thing should be surveyed before dropping and each drop should be a suspect instead of a council vote unless there is overwhelming community support for a drop

The Crown Tundra had issues, but they felt less like they came from the drops themselves. There is a long list of reasons Gen VIII OU was not as popular as USUM for example: putting the blame on just a soft reset of drops is disingenuous as heck. You could list several reasons SwSh wasn't as popular: the metagame was slower, megas were gone, dexit, Dynamax being banned turned off casuals, what have you. You can make several arguments about why Gen 8 wasn't beloved. Putting such a massive onus on a chaotic two months isn't it.

I actually think a soft reset is not only a good idea, but a necessary one. The biggest reason for it is Tera.

With everything the council has said, it feels like a safe assumption to say we will revisit Tera in some way shape or form in DLC 2 after dealing with the immediate problems. Even if we just see some consensus compromise taken on Tera, that could be enough to change the entire playing field and would make some of our bans be worth revisiting. For example, is Tera on Team Preview enough for us to consider unbanning Bax? Would a full Tera Ban make Firepon a palatable drop? These are valid questions to consider when we are looking at our metagame going forward. Tera has such a stranglehold over the generation, and for good reason. It is our defining mechanic for the generation. It has, well, defined the generation. If we see anything happen to it, we need to reconsider our bans.

Even without that, there is logic for a soft reset. The fact of the matter is DLC2 is effectively going to be the "full launch" of SV as a generation, at least given the precedent of the Crown Tundra. Gen IX is effectively going to open up as a metagame once the Indigo Disk drops. Some things might still be busted when we look at things with or without Tera. I fail to see Flutter Mane, Chi Yu, or Iron Bundle being healthy for the tier no matter what. But depending on how the meta shifts and what is done with Tera, it can easily be worth letting things into the tier again. I think framing it as some sort of massive disservice is a massive overreaction. The worst case scenario is that Gen IX has a chaotic two months or so, which is not the end of the world.

If anything, I think a soft reset might bring in players even moreso than it would push people away. If we drop a bunch of spicy stuff and are looking at Tera first and foremost, there's a good shot we can bring in more interest into the tier. The Tera suspect we did at the start of the generation was one of the closest and most engaged suspects we have ever had. Having a wide swath of content would be a great way of enticing new people or returning players back into the tier.

Honestly, I think a fresh slate is what the tier needs. Tera more or less is the original sin of the tier. If we act on it in any way, shape, or form, a ton of our balance decisions are going to be worth putting under a microscope. For example, I might despise Espathra with a fiery passion, but without Tera it would be a very flawed mon. Mons like Annihilape, Regieleki, Chien Pao, Zamazenta Crowned, Firepon, Volcarona, and Urshifu Rapid Strike were in some way, shape, or form banned due to Tera. Would some of those be problematic or potentially scary without Tera? Sure, but it would be a lot harder to gauge.

If I had full dictatorial control, here is what I would drop











I could even be tempted into dropping depending on what direction we go with Tera. I think unbans like in the Crown Tundra are a great way to engage the playerbase and get useful data towards future policy decisions. Even if hypothetically in a metagame that keeps Tera we ban all but Volcarona and Darkrai from that list, I still would say it would be a worthwhile endeavor. Having data from when a pokemon is in the tier is a good thing, especially for making decisions in the future.

I feel like the actual result will be somewhere in the middle. Likely the council will not drop *everything*, but I think acting like a soft reset is the death knell for the tier is just setting yourself up for disappointment at best.

 

[RS25802580]

The problem is I don’t think corv would even fair well in the meta even if Ghold gets the boot. It never wants to tera because its base type is very good defensively, and the general power creep has made it very easy to muscle through. It can pivot and remove hazards, but it’s so passive the it wouldn’t be able to do too much beyond that.

I’m not even gonna talk about mandibuzz, that thing is hot ass lmao

On the contrary, I feel that Corv would be quite good in a Ghold-less meta. Defensively it’s no Dondozo, but it’s not trying to be. Its value would be in serving as a pivot with reliable hazard removal, recovery, and good matchups against the most problematic setters, which is something the tier completely lacks right now.

In the current meta, Gliscor can punish Tusk and Cinderace with Knock/Toxic. Once crippled, neither have the longevity to remove Gliscor’s spikes in the long run. Compare this to Corviknight, which pp stalls spikes with pressure and doesn’t get crippled by Gliscor.

 

[gregdawiz]

Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon are easy examples

Wait when is roaring moon is being checked by gholdengo?

 

[gregdawiz]

If I had full dictatorial control, here is what I would drop











I could even be tempted into dropping

...
Nah, man I'm good i don't think I need a soft reset thanks though

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If I had full dictatorial control, here is what I would drop

if they drop any of this shit besides volc i might actually just leave. gen 9 is hard enough to balance without hitting the reset button on the whole meta and retroactively wasting everyone's time and effort

 

[1LDK]

Agree with all except chien pao, fuck that mon, Chi-Yu is less broken
Btw, Unban Chi-yu, pao should have been quick banned yet it had 2 attempts, chi-yu deserves another
fuck it we ball

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Btw, Unban Chi-yu, pao should have been quick banned yet it had 2 attempts, chi-yu deserves another
fuck it we ball

i feel like this is more a cry for help than an actual proposal

 

[SciWiz373]

Compare this to Corviknight, which pp stalls spikes with pressure and doesn’t get crippled by Gliscor.

Pressure only works if it's a move on the target with Pressure, Spikes doesn't get Pressure'd.

I've been gone for a while, but since Pre-Home it just feels like the conversation about Corviknight is Tyranitar/Chomp-Syndrome, "like it was good last gen so it should be good now, and if it isn't then I'll make it good." Of course that's just what it seems like to me as an outsider, I fully admit I do not have the ELO to state that as a fact.

 

[luckie]

Agree with all except chien pao, fuck that mon, Chi-Yu is less broken
Btw, Unban Chi-yu, pao should have been quick banned yet it had 2 attempts, chi-yu deserves another
fuck it we ball

 

[Eeveeto]

Still think that Miraidon would be healthier in the OU Meta than Annihilape.

 

[awyp]

Still think that Miraidon would be healthier in the OU Meta than Annihilape.

elaborate

 

[Joseph Gomes]

elaborate

They probably think Miraidon could be kept at bay with Ting-Lu and other ground types

 

[ausma]

no, absolutely not, no. we are not talking about miraidon.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Pressure only works if it's a move on the target with Pressure, Spikes doesn't get Pressure'd.

I've been gone for a while, but since Pre-Home it just feels like the conversation about Corviknight is Tyranitar/Chomp-Syndrome, "like it was good last gen so it should be good now, and if it isn't then I'll make it good." Of course that's just what it seems like to me as an outsider, I fully admit I do not have the ELO to state that as a fact.

Pressure as an ability is notable because hazards DO get pressure stalled, defog corv can click defog more than you can set sr on it.

Also obligatory mention that garchomp is still a good pokemon in the current meta, it fell to UU due to new toys and being directly outclassed as a dice sweeper by bax.

it's got good bulk, recovery, toxic, defog, and knock off, the latter three of which are very limited in their distribution. it's got all the tools to be a good utility mon and viable in the tier. i don't know where people are getting this idea that it's ass

Mandibuzz is walled by gholdengo

 

[SDK03]

The Crown Tundra had issues, but they felt less like they came from the drops themselves. There is a long list of reasons Gen VIII OU was not as popular as USUM for example: putting the blame on just a soft reset of drops is disingenuous as heck. You could list several reasons SwSh wasn't as popular: the metagame was slower, megas were gone, dexit, Dynamax being banned turned off casuals, what have you. You can make several arguments about why Gen 8 wasn't beloved. Putting such a massive onus on a chaotic two months isn't it.

I actually think a soft reset is not only a good idea, but a necessary one. The biggest reason for it is Tera.

With everything the council has said, it feels like a safe assumption to say we will revisit Tera in some way shape or form in DLC 2 after dealing with the immediate problems. Even if we just see some consensus compromise taken on Tera, that could be enough to change the entire playing field and would make some of our bans be worth revisiting. For example, is Tera on Team Preview enough for us to consider unbanning Bax? Would a full Tera Ban make Firepon a palatable drop? These are valid questions to consider when we are looking at our metagame going forward. Tera has such a stranglehold over the generation, and for good reason. It is our defining mechanic for the generation. It has, well, defined the generation. If we see anything happen to it, we need to reconsider our bans.

Even without that, there is logic for a soft reset. The fact of the matter is DLC2 is effectively going to be the "full launch" of SV as a generation, at least given the precedent of the Crown Tundra. Gen IX is effectively going to open up as a metagame once the Indigo Disk drops. Some things might still be busted when we look at things with or without Tera. I fail to see Flutter Mane, Chi Yu, or Iron Bundle being healthy for the tier no matter what. But depending on how the meta shifts and what is done with Tera, it can easily be worth letting things into the tier again. I think framing it as some sort of massive disservice is a massive overreaction. The worst case scenario is that Gen IX has a chaotic two months or so, which is not the end of the world.

If anything, I think a soft reset might bring in players even moreso than it would push people away. If we drop a bunch of spicy stuff and are looking at Tera first and foremost, there's a good shot we can bring in more interest into the tier. The Tera suspect we did at the start of the generation was one of the closest and most engaged suspects we have ever had. Having a wide swath of content would be a great way of enticing new people or returning players back into the tier.

Honestly, I think a fresh slate is what the tier needs. Tera more or less is the original sin of the tier. If we act on it in any way, shape, or form, a ton of our balance decisions are going to be worth putting under a microscope. For example, I might despise Espathra with a fiery passion, but without Tera it would be a very flawed mon. Mons like Annihilape, Regieleki, Chien Pao, Zamazenta Crowned, Firepon, Volcarona, and Urshifu Rapid Strike were in some way, shape, or form banned due to Tera. Would some of those be problematic or potentially scary without Tera? Sure, but it would be a lot harder to gauge.

If I had full dictatorial control, here is what I would drop











I could even be tempted into dropping depending on what direction we go with Tera. I think unbans like in the Crown Tundra are a great way to engage the playerbase and get useful data towards future policy decisions. Even if hypothetically in a metagame that keeps Tera we ban all but Volcarona and Darkrai from that list, I still would say it would be a worthwhile endeavor. Having data from when a pokemon is in the tier is a good thing, especially for making decisions in the future.

I feel like the actual result will be somewhere in the middle. Likely the council will not drop *everything*, but I think acting like a soft reset is the death knell for the tier is just setting yourself up for disappointment at best.

Bro just play Ubers at this point if this is what you wanna drop all at once. It’s not that different from OU at the moment anyways.

 

[Cuddly]

What mons specifically? I'm not disagreeing, I just keep saying people say "so much becomes broken" without listing what specific mons do become broken. The mons I can think of have other answers that exist. A list would help me understand.

No longer requires Dark or Ghost coverage in its movesets and can more freely use moves like Encore or Trick. Additionally it can use more Psychic moves to hit Poison types and hit almost everything nuetrally with STABs + Psychic.

Besides Gliscor (also on Radar) and Tera’d Garg, it can spam Dire Claw and fish for Status uncontested besides against Steel types (You know, the perfect Fighting type check). It can also run Tera Blast Ice for likes of Gliscor and Landorus-T without having to worry about being cucked by Gholdengo.

Can simply run Fighting coverage now to deal with Steel types, something it couldn’t do before because of Gholdengo.

Body Press has 1 less Ghost type that completely blocks it. Like with Sneasler it is also now more free to use options like Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Iron Head, or Ice Fang to break past other checks

+2 Boomburst with Fighting and Dragon STAB is incredibly hard to wall, especially with Tera Normal providing STAB and reducing weaknesses

No longer has to deal with Air Ballon Gholdengo, or regular Gholdengo as it can more freely run coverage for Corviknight and Dragapult too.

One of the biggest offensive Steels being gone means its Aurora Veil is much easier to set up and leading to shit like this being much easier
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 76-90 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Frosmoth in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 115-136 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And plenty more examples
And yes, all these Pokemon have different checks and counters too, but Gholdengo fits on a lot more teams. Like Skeledirge can check Iron Valiant, but is more suited for bulkier teams. Garg can safely switch into Dire Claw but would also need to Tera Poison or Tera Ghost to not be dunked on by +2 Close Combat off 130 Atk or the surprise Gunk Shot. And Garg fits better on bulkier teams.
It fills a similar role in OU as Landorus-T or Great Tusk because it can check so much while providing multiple roles at once.

 

[SDK03]

no, absolutely not, no. we are not talking about miraidon.

The person saying that had to have been joking, right?

 

[SciWiz373]

Pressure as an ability is notable because hazards DO get pressure stalled, defog corv can click defog more than you can set sr on it.

My bad, thanks for the correction, I'll edit my post.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Okay but can we talk about how good Scizor is a defog user? it's really good at switching in, uses u-turn very well, can be both bulky and hit hard since it doesn't need speed to be good, as bullet punch is its main offense, and Scizor is cool. I know it's UU but i think it could have potential as a defoger.

I have been using it as a defog user waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy before pokemon home came out.
I am running this set:
Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Defog

I still would not call it "great". it is "okay" at best.
it was much better in the begin of the generation as an anti-meta threat.


edit:

I guess killing ninetails before it sets arora veil is a good niche now. it is similar to how it killed grimmsnarl back when it was in OU.

also if you really really want to use as a defoger then you would have to run either knock off or thief so you can deal with gholdengo.

 

[Rootb]

The person saying that had to have been joking, right?

They're being facetious. They know Miraidon is absolutely 100% unbalanceable and would render OU completely unplayable until the council woke up and banished it back to Ubers.

..they just think Annihilape is even worse than that. And, tbh, I can see it. It's as awful to try and play around as Espathra was, and a way better pokemon in general.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Mandibuzz is walled by gholdengo

so are corv, atales, and ribombee. being walled by gholdengo isn't the death sentence you make it out to be

 

[Schpoonman]

Corv, Atales, and Ribombee all also have type disadvantages. Mandibuzz being handled by a Pokemon the type chart says it at least shouldn't fear is weird considering Mandi isn't that weak a defensive Pokemon.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

so are corv, atales, and ribombee. being walled by gholdengo isn't the death sentence you make it out to be

This is an insane statement! Being walled by Gholdengo is single-handedly Corv's biggest problem in the tier! Sending Corviknight out is without fail an invitation for Gholdengo to come in and get a Nasty Plot, and there's literally nothing Corv can do to stop that, and there's no reason to NOT go hard into Ghold as blocking defog is the optimal choice whenever Corv is out. Gholdengo by itself completely tanks Corv's viability and makes it much less reliable and turns it into a momentum sink. Mandibuzz being a literal Defogging Dark Type who STILL can't do anything to Ghold makes it garbage. The other two are leads whose interactions with Ghold are inconsequential, so bringing them up is completely irrelevant. But pretending that Gholdengo's existence is no obstacle to Corviknight or Mandibuzz is one of the funniest statements made in the last 100 pages of this threads, right up there with "let's just run 6 OU suspects back to back"

 

[Negative Charge]

Test Gholdengo. G h o l d e n g o. No more waste of time water is wet 95% ban tests like Blood Moon, test Gholdengo holy shit

 

[arnimacarni]

It's not A9T the problem, but running Brick Break, since even if it's a Fighiting move, which can hit also Steel types and possibly Gambit, is the BP the problem that holds people from running it, since 75BP it's not even worth it if then you use it just for breaking screens, sure if they really give you a lot of problems then feel to use it, but Drain Punch has the same BP but the heal it gives is so much way better compared to breaking screens of Brick Break. Then people prefer use other moves, mainly Close Combat since many mons can learn it, only some as Bisharp (even if it's the lower tiers) and Swampert, which is coming back with the second DLC. In the end is worth running as a coverage mons if your mons can't learn any other move or it's the only good Fighting move.

I agree that Brick Break sucks balls, but I don't think it's that hard to fit. In the early days of HOME meta I ran Scarf Lando with Brick Break bc anyway I would rather SR, EQ or U-Turn with it, and I had some other Dozo check as to not have to run Grass Knot. In early DLC1 besides running Scizor for A9t with Bullet Punch I had Brick Break on it bc it would do a chunk on Gambit and clean screens for example, and I don't think this is a "bruh just run Water Absorb Seismitoad for Dracovish" situation. In any case the concrete example wasn't that important and/or applicable, but what I mean is mostly that in some cases you just gotta run Ice Spinner on Tusk and suck it up bc the meta is changing and that's a good thing