Hey folks! I recently started playing the Smogon Doubles metagame and I'd like some advice on my team. I think it's doing pretty well for a rookie team, but it's all thanks to the contribution of Smogon's Doubles Players. I lurked a bit on the Doubles forum and read a bunch of analyses so, yeah, building this team would be impossible without you guys. I'm sorry I can't think of names in particular to thank (I was busy reading the informative posts rather than usernames!), but if you posted recently on the Doubles forum and/or made a Doubles analysis, chances are I read your post and it helped me, so thanks. :)
Still, I'm having some issues with the team and I'd like advice from other players. Here we go!
First of all, Doubles is a metagame where Hitmontop truly shines. Being my favorite Pokémon ever since GSC, I just could not miss this chance to use it. There was no other option for my team's first pokémon!
Next on, I thought it would be a good idea to make a rather easy to use team, seeing how I'm new to this metagame and all. My lurking showed me that Charizard Y was a big threat on doubles, with its Drought-boosted Heat Wave and good coverage moves.
Following the "ease of use" idea, Heatran was the next obvious choice. This is a point where lurking on the forums was of great influence in building my team. Beforehand, I'd never even consider using Heatran in doubles because "duh, EQ weak!". However, my lurk time showed that Heatran can truly shiny with its plentiful resistances and, if necessary, Wide Guard protection from Hitmontop. It also gets a boost from Charizard's Drought, so it seemed like a logical choice.
At this point I got pretty stumped. I already had my favorite Pokémon on the team and some sun abuse, but I had no idea what else to use. What should I prepare for? How should I threaten my opponents? Still a bit lost, I chose Landorus-T as my next team member. Along with Hitmontop, it forms a Double Intimidate core which helps stop cold most physical attackers (except for Defiant, I know), so it helps me prepare against a LOT of Pokémon. It's also a offensive presence in its own right, with base 140 Attack.
For the next Pokémon, I wanted some support options. A good choice was Togekiss, who can do about one trillion different support roles. On my team, I used it for both Tailwind and Follow Me support.
At this point I was kinda tired form teambuilding, so I just said "Screw it!" and added whoever on the last teamslot, thinking I'd fix it later on. I added an Aegislash without much thought, using the same set from standard OU (Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Sacred Sword, King's Shield).
After playtesting the team a bit, I noticed Aegislash was doing a pretty lackluster job. Still a bit lost on the metagame, I put a Shaymin-S on its slot on the team. Hey, at least if I'm in a bad position, I could "cheat" my way to victory with double Air Slashes! How cool is that?(Answer: Not cool at all.)
After some more playtesting, I noticed that my team had a pretty glaring Electric-type weakness. Even if Landorus is immune to Electric moves, that is completely useless if it just gets killed by a stray HP Ice. In order to fix this issue, I added a Rotom-H on Shaymin's slot. It not only adds a crucial electric resistance that also actually resists Ice, but it's also another Drought abuser with its Overheat! While it is mostly used for Electroweb support, Overheat is a pretty good move, being very strong in the sun and bypassing Wide Guard, unlike Heat Wave from the other two fire types.
Finally, the team was holding pretty well, but some battles were very hard. Those were battles against teams with a bunch of Rock Slides. That was obvious: Charizard, Togekiss and Rotom, are all weak to Rock, while Heatran generally doesn't like taking Rock Slides either do the risk of being Earthquaked in the face. Even with dual intimidators, they'repretty useless if the Rock Slide comes into them along with something else that threatens them; say a Rock Slide+Special Attacker combo. I couldn't switch my intimidators out because the rest of the team could not take a non-Intimidated Rock Slide! In order to alleviate this issue, I once again used an Aegislash on the team, this time on Togekiss's slot. This time around, I was better versed in doubles, so I made sure to include Wide Guard in its moveset, further helping the team with is Rock Slide problems. It also helped against Trick Room teams, so no harm done!
And this is the current version of the team! It still has some pretty heavy issues that I'll discuss at the end of the post. But since this is the current version, let's look at each member in detail.
Dark Hitmontop (Hitmontop) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 120 Atk / 252 HP / 60 SDef / 60 Def / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Helping Hand / Feint (old move) / Other options?
--> My all-time favorite! I don't think I have to explain to anyone just how great of a support mon hitmontop is in doubles. It helps the team's physical defenses with Intimidate and protects teammates from nasty Rock and Ground weaknesses with wide guard. The last moveslot is one I'm unsure about. At first I used Feint, wanting to break Wide Guards for Charizard Y and Heatran, but after a lot of games, I didn't do that even a single time. It felt too situational. So I'm using Helping Hand now, which has been useful a few times, but still feels like a situational move. Any idea of a move I could use on that moveslot?
==>
Muffin (Charizard) (F) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Focus Blast
- SolarBeam / Fire Blast (old move)
- Protect / Other options??
-->Provides sun support and is a huge threat in general. On the first versions of the team, I had Fire Blast over Solarbeam, but after a few battles, I decided to go with solarbeam instead. Protect is a generic go-to move in doubles, but after seeing some guy a Tailwind Charizard Y on the ladder, I've been seriously considering using some different move on that slot. Still, Protect is too god and I'm not brave enough to go to battle without it. :[
stvn (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 140 Spd / 252 SAtk / 116 HP
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect
--> Another generally great pokémon. I'd never think of using Substitute+Protect, but after lurking on the doubles forum, I saw a LOT of people suggesting this, so I decided to use this. And I'm totally not disappointed. Heatran behind a sub is a huge threat and attracts a lot of attention, so using a Protect to stall for time is not too bad. And it also has all the normal applications of Protect in doubles too!
Dog (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect
-->Yet another Intimidate support 'mon. I screwed around with Scarf Landorus for a while and, even though I got some pretty good results, I decided to go back to Sitrus Berry, as I found the ability to switch moves to be way too good. When used with a Scarf, I had Knock Off instead of Protect. I've also read a debate about Stealth Rock in doubles on the suspect thread, but Protect has been way too useful for me, so I stuck with it.
Uriel (Aegislash) (M) @ Weakness Policy / Other options??
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield
- Wide Guard
--> Aegislash helps with the team's glaring Rock Slide resist by both resisting the move and shielding its teammates from it by using Wide Guard. It's also a great choice to try and stop trick room from being setup (Helping Handed Shadow Ball OHKOs Dusclops and Aegislash is immune to Fake Out!), or it can just abuse Trick Room itself if it comes to that. Still, I'm not sure if its better to be really slow and outspeed Trick Room sweepers while in TR or if I should just go with normal speed and underspeed them (therefore retaining shield forme while they attack me). I'm also really unsure on the item to use. I picked Weakness Policy without much thought, but it's a really high risk item. Sometimes I get some huge returns with it, by snagging a boost just before a hit on some important 'mon and, therefore, KO'ing it, while other times it just goes to waste as Aegislash is hit by a SE move that does >50% on a Wide Guard turn and can't really attack later. Any ideas of another good item for it?
Rato (Rotom-Heat) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 132 SAtk / 124 Spd
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Volt Switch / Other options?
- Electroweb
- Protect
--> Helps with electric weakness and speed control. Electroweb is just a really awesome move. Overheat can also be used in case I need to KO something quick, as it's very strong in the sun. Volt Switch is great at letting other teammates coming in safely, but its been generally a very situational move. Still, I have no idea what else I could over it, so I'm keeping it for the time being. EVs are pretty arbitrary because I have no clue what I'm doing. I just copied them from Rotom-W's analysis and moves all the SDef into Speed, as I can obviously tank a Charizard solarbeam. Still, I dunno if all this Speed is relevant or not. Some help with EVs would be greatly appreciated!
Of course, as with any team, it has its fair share of flaws. Trick Room teams are a bitch to face. Even though Aegislash helps a TON against them, they're still pretty shitty to face and I often have no option but to stall Trick Room with Protect spam and smart switches. Its been working so far, but it really sucks to play at such a big disadvantage. Still, I have no idea what I could do to help against those. Maybe use something else on Hitmontop's slot, as its mostly dead weight against Trick Room, but it's so useful against everything else that this seems like a terrible idea!
Rain Teams are also pretty horrible to fight against. I have a whopping four weaknesses to Water and not a single resistance, which means that I just flat-out lose if I can't keep Drought up. And that is freaking impossible if even one Pokémon has the actual Rain Dance move to troll Charizard along with Politoed. It's specially terrible if said Rain Dance pokémon is thundurus, as I can't even get the chance to KO it before the Rain is up. I've thought about using Venusaur somewhere, as it resists Water and benefits from Drought, but its Ice weakness makes it look like an unreliable answer to rain at best. Any ideas for this?
Rock Slide in general is still a bit annoying, with Charizard Y taking a huge hit from it, but I think the issue has been addressed nicely with Aegislash on the team. This way, I have two resists, two Wide Guards and two Intimidators to deal with this! I'm still a bit scared because Togekiss-era team as pretty bad against the move in general, but I'm getting my confidence back now.
But speaking of Intimidate, I'm scared as fuck of Defiant pokémon in general. Fortunately they're pretty rare on the ladder and Bisharp is quite manageable, as it relies on Sucker Punch to do anything. But I think Defiant Tornadus or even Thundurus could have a pretty easy time smacking my team around. This is mostly a theorymon problem, as I didn't find either of those while laddering, but I feel like it could be pretty serious.
Other than those, I don't see any critical issues with the team, but I'm still inexperienced in the doubles metagame. My only experience has been the ladder which, as everyone knows, is not ideal. So yeah, if anyone else spots another glaring weakness on the team, please let me know! And please offer a nice suggestion to fix it too, that would be helpful. :P
While previewing this post, I also noticed it's really, really long! So huge thanks if you take your time to read it all and help me. :)
Still, I'm having some issues with the team and I'd like advice from other players. Here we go!
Team Building process
First of all, Doubles is a metagame where Hitmontop truly shines. Being my favorite Pokémon ever since GSC, I just could not miss this chance to use it. There was no other option for my team's first pokémon!
Next on, I thought it would be a good idea to make a rather easy to use team, seeing how I'm new to this metagame and all. My lurking showed me that Charizard Y was a big threat on doubles, with its Drought-boosted Heat Wave and good coverage moves.
CURRENT TEAM
Dark Hitmontop (Hitmontop) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 120 Atk / 252 HP / 60 SDef / 60 Def / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Helping Hand / Feint (old move) / Other options?
--> My all-time favorite! I don't think I have to explain to anyone just how great of a support mon hitmontop is in doubles. It helps the team's physical defenses with Intimidate and protects teammates from nasty Rock and Ground weaknesses with wide guard. The last moveslot is one I'm unsure about. At first I used Feint, wanting to break Wide Guards for Charizard Y and Heatran, but after a lot of games, I didn't do that even a single time. It felt too situational. So I'm using Helping Hand now, which has been useful a few times, but still feels like a situational move. Any idea of a move I could use on that moveslot?
Muffin (Charizard) (F) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Focus Blast
- SolarBeam / Fire Blast (old move)
- Protect / Other options??
-->Provides sun support and is a huge threat in general. On the first versions of the team, I had Fire Blast over Solarbeam, but after a few battles, I decided to go with solarbeam instead. Protect is a generic go-to move in doubles, but after seeing some guy a Tailwind Charizard Y on the ladder, I've been seriously considering using some different move on that slot. Still, Protect is too god and I'm not brave enough to go to battle without it. :[
stvn (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 140 Spd / 252 SAtk / 116 HP
Modest Nature
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect
--> Another generally great pokémon. I'd never think of using Substitute+Protect, but after lurking on the doubles forum, I saw a LOT of people suggesting this, so I decided to use this. And I'm totally not disappointed. Heatran behind a sub is a huge threat and attracts a lot of attention, so using a Protect to stall for time is not too bad. And it also has all the normal applications of Protect in doubles too!
Dog (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect
-->Yet another Intimidate support 'mon. I screwed around with Scarf Landorus for a while and, even though I got some pretty good results, I decided to go back to Sitrus Berry, as I found the ability to switch moves to be way too good. When used with a Scarf, I had Knock Off instead of Protect. I've also read a debate about Stealth Rock in doubles on the suspect thread, but Protect has been way too useful for me, so I stuck with it.
Uriel (Aegislash) (M) @ Weakness Policy / Other options??
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- King's Shield
- Wide Guard
--> Aegislash helps with the team's glaring Rock Slide resist by both resisting the move and shielding its teammates from it by using Wide Guard. It's also a great choice to try and stop trick room from being setup (Helping Handed Shadow Ball OHKOs Dusclops and Aegislash is immune to Fake Out!), or it can just abuse Trick Room itself if it comes to that. Still, I'm not sure if its better to be really slow and outspeed Trick Room sweepers while in TR or if I should just go with normal speed and underspeed them (therefore retaining shield forme while they attack me). I'm also really unsure on the item to use. I picked Weakness Policy without much thought, but it's a really high risk item. Sometimes I get some huge returns with it, by snagging a boost just before a hit on some important 'mon and, therefore, KO'ing it, while other times it just goes to waste as Aegislash is hit by a SE move that does >50% on a Wide Guard turn and can't really attack later. Any ideas of another good item for it?
Rato (Rotom-Heat) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 132 SAtk / 124 Spd
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Volt Switch / Other options?
- Electroweb
- Protect
--> Helps with electric weakness and speed control. Electroweb is just a really awesome move. Overheat can also be used in case I need to KO something quick, as it's very strong in the sun. Volt Switch is great at letting other teammates coming in safely, but its been generally a very situational move. Still, I have no idea what else I could over it, so I'm keeping it for the time being. EVs are pretty arbitrary because I have no clue what I'm doing. I just copied them from Rotom-W's analysis and moves all the SDef into Speed, as I can obviously tank a Charizard solarbeam. Still, I dunno if all this Speed is relevant or not. Some help with EVs would be greatly appreciated!
Of course, as with any team, it has its fair share of flaws. Trick Room teams are a bitch to face. Even though Aegislash helps a TON against them, they're still pretty shitty to face and I often have no option but to stall Trick Room with Protect spam and smart switches. Its been working so far, but it really sucks to play at such a big disadvantage. Still, I have no idea what I could do to help against those. Maybe use something else on Hitmontop's slot, as its mostly dead weight against Trick Room, but it's so useful against everything else that this seems like a terrible idea!
Rain Teams are also pretty horrible to fight against. I have a whopping four weaknesses to Water and not a single resistance, which means that I just flat-out lose if I can't keep Drought up. And that is freaking impossible if even one Pokémon has the actual Rain Dance move to troll Charizard along with Politoed. It's specially terrible if said Rain Dance pokémon is thundurus, as I can't even get the chance to KO it before the Rain is up. I've thought about using Venusaur somewhere, as it resists Water and benefits from Drought, but its Ice weakness makes it look like an unreliable answer to rain at best. Any ideas for this?
Rock Slide in general is still a bit annoying, with Charizard Y taking a huge hit from it, but I think the issue has been addressed nicely with Aegislash on the team. This way, I have two resists, two Wide Guards and two Intimidators to deal with this! I'm still a bit scared because Togekiss-era team as pretty bad against the move in general, but I'm getting my confidence back now.
But speaking of Intimidate, I'm scared as fuck of Defiant pokémon in general. Fortunately they're pretty rare on the ladder and Bisharp is quite manageable, as it relies on Sucker Punch to do anything. But I think Defiant Tornadus or even Thundurus could have a pretty easy time smacking my team around. This is mostly a theorymon problem, as I didn't find either of those while laddering, but I feel like it could be pretty serious.
Other than those, I don't see any critical issues with the team, but I'm still inexperienced in the doubles metagame. My only experience has been the ladder which, as everyone knows, is not ideal. So yeah, if anyone else spots another glaring weakness on the team, please let me know! And please offer a nice suggestion to fix it too, that would be helpful. :P
While previewing this post, I also noticed it's really, really long! So huge thanks if you take your time to read it all and help me. :)