Inspirited
There is usually higher ground.
Salaninja1025 , Nayrz answered this question on the previous page: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...hread-update-322.3591388/page-14#post-7442630
There's a SQSA thread you know.One last question lol. Why is Arceus ground S rank? It checks P groudon, sure, but how has it become meta defining to the point in that it becomes S rank?
I don't know if changing teambuilding really warrants it to be in the same tier as Mega Mence and Yveltal. A good SM ubers team has to carry specific checks or moves specifically for these mons (for example Roar Pdon for Mega Mence or Fairyceus for Yveltal) and that doesn't really apply to Marsh since it's checked by Pdon, Xern, or Fairyceus for example and those mons are already very useful and common regardless of Marsh (Fairyceus's rise is partly due to Marsh but it's always been a solid support Arceus form and it already recieved a huge boost this gen because of Yveltal's increased usage).Been starting to play more post-Marshadow and have some thoughts to share:
A -> A+ (between Yveltal and Mega Mence)
This single threat has literally warped the metagame around it ever since its release, and this is evident through how much it has impacted the viability of certain team archetypes and influences what compositions of threats they choose to run. For example, the pre-Marsh meta had been pretty dominated by various HO builds due to them being effective in winning the hazard war and ultimately sweeping with either DoubleDance Pdon, Power Herb Xern, or DD Mega Salamence / SD Mega Lucario. However, due to Marshadow's introduction, the overall viability of these teams have strictly diminished and have forced options such as Scarf Yveltal and Z-Geomancy Xern to be run in order to acquire an actual check that can switchin and force it out. I have heard a lot of criticism upon Marshadow's incapability to break through stall, however Bulk Up sets with SSSS provides it enough power to blow back most checks after one boost, making these teams needing to fall back on threats like defensive Toxapex and Ho-Oh. With Marshadow alone, balance has re surged to be one of the more consistent playstyles atm, since teams lacking any type of check to it can easily be overwhelmed by it when it is given an opportunity to switchin. While its unimpressive stats compared to other top tier Ubers threats does hold it back somewhat, Marshadow's influence alone on teambuilding warrants it a rise to A+ imo.
A- -> A (between Primal Kyogre and Deoxys-A)
Arceus-Fairy has evolved from being a good but not optimal support Arceus forme into being one of the best options for an Arceus slot in the post-Marsh meta. It is so good to have a mon that can switch into Marsh's most powerful STAB move and be able to consistently force it out with its own STAB attacks. It also appreciates the influx of Scarf Yveltal and decrease usage of Mega Lucario. Defog and Calm Mind sets are both splashable in their own right and can both cause a nuisance to a majority of teams. It still hates facing Mega Gengar and does not appreciate the popularity of Toxapex and defensive Ho-Oh, but Arceus-Fairy has proven itself to be one of the best Arceus slots behind Arceus-Ground.
UR -> B- (between Mega Mewtwo-X and Bronzong)
Quite astonished not to see this threat ranked as of yet even pre-Marsh since it still paired well with stuff like DD Mega Mence and Rayquaza. Nonetheless, Gothitelle capitalizes on the rise of Support Arceus formes and more passive threats in general thanks to Marshadow's influence, meaning that it can setup Calm Mind sweeps much more easily then it could have before. It still proves to be one of the best stallbreakers in the game (note something that should be taken into account heavily due to the archetypes rise in popularity), and provides useful support for a variety of threats such as Bulk Up Marshadow and Z-Geo Xerneas. While this might seem as a huge jump, I believe it to be warranted just given how Goth takes advantage of the recent meta changes so nicely.
Here are some inner rank changes I could also see happen:
- lowered (below Primal Kyogre)
- lowered (between Zygarde-C and Rayquaza)
- risen (between Giratina-O and Zygarde-C)
- lowered (between Dialga and Mega Blaziken)
- lowered (between Tyranitar and Magearna)
- risen (between Mega Mewtwo-Y and Blissey)
That wasn't what I said, I said that Pdon can switch into Marshadow not that Pdon is enough to be your only answerIf your only marshadow answer is a Pdon, you're going to lose to it. The effect Marshadow has had on the meta is almost undoubtedly as much of an effect as Yveltal has had, in my opinion at least.
Marsh is a pokemon that is not on the level of Yvetal, specifically. Yvetal can counter a non ice-punch marsh, and Mega Mence can also do the same. (Notice the non-ice punch.) I, though think that marsh could get a rise if Arceus sees more usage in Ultra Sun/Moon, or if Other mons that Marsh beats get a rise in the new games. (Forgive my short bit and lack of elaboration)I don't know if changing teambuilding really warrants it to be in the same tier as Mega Mence and Yveltal. A good SM ubers team has to carry specific checks or moves specifically for these mons (for example Roar Pdon for Mega Mence or Fairyceus for Yveltal) and that doesn't really apply to Marsh since it's checked by Pdon, Xern, or Fairyceus for example and those mons are already very useful and common regardless of Marsh (Fairyceus's rise is partly due to Marsh but it's always been a solid support Arceus form and it already recieved a huge boost this gen because of Yveltal's increased usage).
I would argue that Goth deserves to be ranked a little higher, this thing is an automatic gg against any stall build that doesn't carry a specific counter to it (like the shed shell Toxapex I encountered in Ubers Open r1) and also does a huge dent in balance builds by killing support Arceus forms that are extremely important as balance teams suffer a lot from rocks.
Is there some reason you'd run Ice Punch to hit Yveltal over Rock Tomb, which I think is commonly used to deal with Ho-oh and hits significantly harder thanks to Technician?Marsh is a pokemon that is not on the level of Yvetal, specifically. Yvetal can counter a non ice-punch marsh, and Mega Mence can also do the same. (Notice the non-ice punch.) I, though think that marsh could get a rise if Arceus sees more usage in Ultra Sun/Moon, or if Other mons that Marsh beats get a rise in the new games. (Forgive my short bit and lack of elaboration)
You'd be running HP ice over ice punch and hp ice's use is to OHKO Mega Salamence and Landorus-T and to 2HKO Zygarde-CIs there some reason you'd run Ice Punch to hit Yveltal over Rock Tomb, which I think is commonly used to deal with Ho-oh and hits significantly harder thanks to Technician?
That is not why Alolan Muk was dropped at all. Alolan Muk fits on less defensive teams nowadays thanks to the proliferation of Toxapex on these teams, which has somewhat redundant type synergy with Alolan Muk. Tyranitar has become a better pick on these types of teams due to its ability to compress Stealth Rock and Pursuit duties in one teamslot. That said, you are still vastly underselling Alolan Muk and a lot of the reasons you provided for dropping it so far are not good.
The Pokemon in B- you are comparing Muk to do not compete with Muk for a teamslot. Muk is a Pursuit trapper and general special sponge that also acts as a hard stop to threatening special attackers such as Xerneas and can be a menace to deal with thanks to its access to its annoying ability useful utility moves such as Knock Off. The Pokemon you have compared Muk to perform completely different functions to Muk and, in some cases, are simply not as good at all. Skarmory is a physical wall that provides a cold stop to Swords Dance Arceus formes and has access to Spikes and Defog. However, metagame trends have shifted against it; Fire-type move offensive Primal Groudon has become more common, and Celesteela exists, which can generally compensate for its lack of outright utility on most defensive teams with its much greater overall bulk - this confines Skarmory to very bulky teams that require its level of role compression. Cloyster is fine on certain hyper offensive teams as an offensive Spikes setter that compresses the ability to threaten Arceus-Ground and hazard removal, but hyper offense has somewhat decreased in relevance since Marshadow was released so it has by extension become less prevalent. Klefki is kind of bad in this metagame for reasons that should be self-explanatory. Bronzong isn't even B-, it's B. Speaking of Bronzong, it is still an excellent check to several top threats, such as Arceus-Ground and Xerneas, despite its several crippling weaknesses (by the way, Bronzong also does not compete with Muk for a teamslot). Including the fact that Toxapex and Arceus-Water (which also perform completely different functions to Muk) being ranked higher than Muk does not make any sense; that is why they are in the A ranks and Muk is in B to begin with. Your post completely disregards the utility Muk still offers to some defensive teams, such as Chansey stalls that opt for Ho-Oh and more balanced teams that require its unique cocktail of abilities
This all being said, I am inclined to believe you are not very familiar with this metagame, given you mention Magearna as an Assault Vest user, which it is not (it runs Leftovers in Ubers); Giratina as a Pokemon that can "put dents" in teams, which it does not (it is the epitome of "sit there" from an offensive standpoint); and Toxapex as a special wall, which it is not (horrible typing for a special wall in this metagame and you mention it as a Primal Groudon check... which it also isn't). Muk could probably drop a hair further, but not for the reasons you mentioned. It is not on the same level as Digimon such as Arceus-Rock, Shuckle, and Darkrai at all.
To address your confusion, the advantage of A-Muk over Tyranitar is that A-Muk can always switch into Gengar and Lunala and pursuit trap either, while Tyranitar cannot if either of them are running Focus Blast. So it does have at least one advantage over Tyranitar, whether or not that advantage means that it's better depends on your team. You said that "a pursuit trapper is anything in ubers but needed" which is blatantly false, you absolutely need to have a pursuit trapper on stall teams with Chansey or otherwise you'll lose it to M-Gengar.What I'm attempting to say when I mention things like Mag, Giratina, and Toxapex, is that all of these Pokemon have more flexibility than Alolan Muk, and I'm not saying that Alolan Muk needs the ability to be offensive. I am saying that things like Giratina, Mag, and Pex all would give a team more benefit than something as poor as Alolan Muk would, being that Magearna CAN run AV, and Toxapex CAN provide Specially Defensive Support. I am indeed familiar with this metagame, and I know that anyone else who is can recognize that Alolan Muk indeed does belong in the same league as the "Digimon" you've mentioned. Tyranitar does what Alolan Muk does better, for what it's worth I suppose. A Pursuit trapper in Ubers is anything but needed, and that's basically what Alolan Muk is- a Pursuit trapper- something that's just not needed. His resistances are weak, his immunities are outclassed, and his use just isn't needed. Shuckle, Smeargle, and Klefki would all provide a more valuable team slot, hell, I'd rather use Pursuit fucking Smeargle. Perhaps I want to move him down too far (which I don't Dx) but he does deserve to be moved down one way or another, and all of the reasons I have previously stated would indeed play a part in this, as they are all flaws of Muk's.
To address your confusion, the advantage of A-Muk over Tyranitar is that A-Muk can always switch into Gengar and Lunala and pursuit trap either, while Tyranitar cannot if either of them are running Focus Blast. So it does have at least one advantage over Tyranitar, whether or not that advantage means that it's better depends on your team. You said that "a pursuit trapper is anything in ubers but needed" which is blatantly false, you absolutely need to have a pursuit trapper on stall teams with Chansey or otherwise you'll lose it to M-Gengar.
And why do you keep mentioning random mons that have nothing to do with A-Muk in this post? Magearna is a Xerneas counter, Giratina is a defogger with offensive presence, Toxapex is a physical wall, Smeargle and Shuckle are sticky web leads, and Klefki is a mostly irrelevant status spammer. None of them have the same role as A-Muk so there's no point in talking about them
??My point with mentioning other Pokemon is just to say that they are purely better than Alolan Muk. Regarding the stall team comment you've made about Pursuit trappers and them being needed on stall. If a Pokemon is only usable at all on stall, as Alolan Muk basically is, it doesn't deserve to be ranked among things like Magearna and Mega Mewtwo Y.
??
Alolan Muk is by no means only usable on stall, and I see nowhere where anyone has mentioned it is. In fact, it has seen use on more offensive/balanced themes as a solid check to threats like Deoxys-A and Mega Gengar. Your posts show a pretty clear lack of understanding of Alolan Muk's niche in the metagame. You haven't made any actual arguments as to why it should drop, outside of likening it to Pokemon that it really faces no competition from (by the way, running Assault Vest on Magearna completely defeats its niche as one of the best Geomancy Xerneas stops with Heart Swap). You say that "it doesn't deserve to be ranked among things like Magearna and Mega Mewtwo Y", but you haven't made any effort to explain why these Pokemon are so much better than Alolan Muk. Magearna pretty much does nothing outside of checking Xerneas / Yveltal and is hard walled by Fire-types like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon, while Mega Mewtwo Y is fast and powerful but faces competition from Deoxys-A, has poor physical bulk, and comes with opportunity cost because you're choosing to use it over a potentially more useful Mega Evolution. I am not going to deny that Alolan Muk has its flaws; it's setup bait for Primal Groudon, Mega Lucario etc. and faces competition from Tyranitar and Toxapex. These are the reasons why it dropped after all. However, Alolan Muk's good defensive typing (a dark resist + psychic immunity is still actually pretty useful in this meta) and colossal special bulk alongside access to Pursuit definitely gives it a good enough niche to stay in B.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ubers-viability-ranking-thread-update-322.3591388/page-10First post nomming a mon so I may be missing stuff, please correct me on what I'll need, but:
Nomming Genesect for C or C+
Genesect is a pretty powerful, and kinda underrated pokemon as of right now. It can 2HKO Primal Groudon's bulkiest sets with Sp.Def, it can keep momentum in your favor with U-turn and it can use flash cannon against the powerful fairies in the meta. While it doesn't have amazing bulk, it can take a few neutral hits from some threats in the meta.
Some calcs: 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas: 324-384 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 204-241 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 275-324 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
First post nomming a mon so I may be missing stuff, please correct me on what I'll need, but:
Nomming Genesect for C or C+
Genesect is a pretty powerful, and kinda underrated pokemon as of right now. It can 2HKO Primal Groudon's bulkiest sets with Sp.Def, it can keep momentum in your favor with U-turn and it can use flash cannon against the powerful fairies in the meta. While it doesn't have amazing bulk, it can take a few neutral hits from some threats in the meta.
Some calcs: 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas: 324-384 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 204-241 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 275-324 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO